Taoiseach says no to METRO ?

weehamster

Thats what the Interconnector would do. That is what exactly the Dublin Rail Plan from Irish Rail is. Extendig the DART to other areas that doesn't have a fantastic service. And all for €3.6 billion (which is a actual cost from Irish Rail, and they have a excellant record in keeping projects either within or below budget)

Stimpyone

Have a look at the map, apart from the Dart line that hugs the coast there's feck all else on the North side. I live in Raheny which has a Dart station but it's a good 45 min walk away .

And the bus service is crap too.

http://www.extendthedart.com/images/inter_map.jpg

sliabh

weehamster wrote:

And all for €3.6 billion (which is a actual cost from Irish Rail, and they have a excellant record in keeping projects either within or below budget)

No they don't. Their records is pretty much the same as any other state agency i.e. hit and miss.

The state org that seems to have contracting figured out is the NRA. Whatever they are doing to get projects in ahead of schedule and budget needs to be learned by the other state bodies that are (over) spending national funds.

BTW, I heard the new minister on Morning Ireland this morning discussing joining the Luas lines. There was some sensible talk from him e.g. transport plans need to be seen as a very long term investment bringing benefits on a timescale of 100 years. But why is it that I get the feeling that new minister = resest all projects and plans that have not started to square one again?

antoinolachtnai

EUR 3.6 billion is an immense amount of money.

The interest on 3.6 billion alone would be over EUR 100 million/year, which would be enough to keep 500 buses on the road without having to charge any fares at all.

Alternatively you could build 3 or 4 LUAS lines. Or you could build another Port Tunnel going south.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but you have to keep some perspective.

narommy

sliabh wrote:

The state org that seems to have contracting figured out is the NRA. Whatever they are doing to get projects in ahead of schedule and budget needs to be learned by the other state bodies that are (over) spending national funds.

BTW, I heard the new minister on Morning Ireland this morning discussing joining the Luas lines. There was some sensible talk from him e.g. transport plans need to be seen as a very long term investment bringing benefits on a timescale of 100 years. But why is it that I get the feeling that new minister = resest all projects and plans that have not started to square one again?

The NRA do have a good record but is it their talents or is it that they select contractors who have the benefit of moving up the learning curve of road construction.

Rail projects are once off and we don't have much experience with them. Irish rail do have the most experience of them tho.

It is a bit Oirish that we appoint a Banker to head up the RPA, Which is essentially a construction planning and management body. It was interesting to see a while back that Liam Carroll suggested that the Cherrywood extension could be designed to reduce some of the inefficiencies evident in the construction of the existing lines

MG

antoinolachtnai wrote:

EUR 100 million/year, which would be enough to keep 500 buses on the road without having to charge any fares at all.

Maybe so but buses don't have the same impact in convincing people to make a permananet shift public transport as rail. I’ve heard it called a snob mentality towards buses but its fairly true. Personally, I would avoid taking a bus but would switch to public transport tomorrow if there were a good rail service available.

BrianD

From what I can see IR have delivered their projects on time. The controversial DART renewal project seems to be on schedule. The rebuilding of the bridge near Clonmel was completed quickly and their track renewal plans have progressed well. Granted there was the signalling fiasco.

narommy

I might be wrong but I think:

IR do most of their work in house, or subcontract (from a panel of contractors??)

This would have to be less bureaucratic and thus faster than publishing tenders. Also they have more control over the costs and can implement saving as they see opportunities during the build

Andrew Duffy

antoinolachtnai wrote:

EUR 3.6 billion is an immense amount of money.

That is true; however it is the total cost of a six-year state investment plan that is already in place, except for the €1.3bn cost of the interconnector tunnel. Therefore, the interest payable would either be on a loan to build the tunnel or on nothing if the extra funding is drawn from taxes.
Remember that the funding plan for the Airport Metro involved a payment of €400m per year for twenty years.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

No they don't. Their records is pretty much the same as any other state agency i.e. hit and miss.
QUOTE]

Actually your wrong!

All of IE's makor projects in the last few years have been ON TIME and most importantly UNDER BUDGET. Examples being Heuston redevelopment, the new train depot in Drogheda, the 5 year mainline track renewal program which is finishing this year on the Connolly - Rosslare line.

Ever since the mini-CTC signalling fiasco in 1999 IE have got their house in order and continue to deliver major projects on time. Therefore I have every belief that they would deliver a intergrated rail plan on time and budget.

BTW: The Mini-CTC project was brought in house and now the Athlone - Galway, Cherryville Jct (Kildare) - Waterford are controlled by the Mini-CTC signal system.

Projects currently under way are Mallow - Tralee to follow in Feb 2005 and Maynooth - Sligo will follow in two stages during 2005.

It doesn't end there! Board approval has been obtained to resignal Athlone - Westport and Manulla Jct - Ballina. This will follow on from the Sligo resignalling and is planned to be complete in 2007.

weehamster

Stimpyone wrote:

Have a look at the map, apart from the Dart line that hugs the coast there's feck all else on the North side. I live in Raheny which has a Dart station but it's a good 45 min walk away .

And the bus service is crap too.

http://www.extendthedart.com/images/inter_map.jpg

LOL - I actually made that map on P11

As for a good 45min walk, Im not sure about that. I live in Artane and I can tell ye its max 30min walk from Harmonstown station to Raheny station and its also a max 30mins from Kilbarrack station to Raheny station, and Im a 'large bloke' as well.

We all can't have a station right outside or front door and thats where buses can play a big role here with linking areas that are a bit of a walk from their nearest station.

Also dont forget people about the LUAS (far more stops and far cheaper than a 'metro'). There was a 3rd line to be built, from Drumdrum to Ballymun via Harolds X, Fourcourts & Whitehall. But Mary O'Rourke decided to put that on the back burner. There is also a spur planned from that line from Whitehall to Howth Jtn.

Stimpyone

weehamster wrote:

As for a good 45min walk, Im not sure about that. I live in Artane and I can tell ye its max 30min walk from Harmonstown station to Raheny station and its also a max 30mins from Kilbarrack station to Raheny station, and Im a 'large bloke' as well.

Try walking it from the other side of the Tonagee Road, admittedly Howth Junction would be a shorter walk but i was trying to make a point ( any time public transport is discussed people generally remark.. "sure you live in Raheny theres a Dart station right beside you".... etc. ).

I understand that we all can't have a Dart/LUAS stop outside our door, but it would be nice to get on a bus and not have to drive through every speed bump infested estate in Edenmore and Artane before finally pulling back out on to the Malahide road and on into town.

Malahide Road and Clare Hall (City Junction as their calling it ) is going to see some massive development in the next year or so, and the place is already a bottle neck. I'm not really bothered what sort of public transport is provided, just as long as it is!.

In sumary.... more buses shorter routes for the Northside please!. Or am I just being stupidly selfish?

weehamster

I hate walking anyway LOL

When I was living in Canberra,Auz, the bus service had interconnecting stations all over the city (usually a car park at a shopping centre) where you get one bus from where you lived to one of these interconnector station and from there you get another bus to city centre or other major urban centres. This I beleive would work very well here and would would be a ideal companion to the rail service.

As for the City(Clare Hall) junction (or Darndale, for the politically incorrect, as I like to call it) would be served by the DART airport Spur.

weehamster

The Minister has said that the Airport ‘Metro’ is 3rd in line of importance. I feel this is wrong. It should be further down the order.

Considering that most of the commuting traffic actually comes from the Greater Dublin Area (outside Co. Dublin), would it not be wise to tackle the 2 main route, the Kildare and Drogheda, first.

The Linking of the 2 LUAS lines is a cheap (€70m), small and straight forward project, which is why it’s no 1 on the list.

The 'Interconnector' , (which is a real project, i.e. big)is no. 2 as it brings the DART through the heart of Dublin 2 to Heuston station. Cost €1.3b. It also links all rail services to each other, DART, LUAS, SUBURBAN & INTERCITY.

The DART Airport Rail link should be 3rd as it a far cheaper alternative (€440m) to the 'Metro' (€3b) and it on the same line as the 'Interconnector' and existing DART. It also should be a straight forward to construct as its all fields between the DART and Airport. This line would also have a large Park & Ride facility at a stop on the M1. This should help to reduce traffic going through north Dublin City.

Next should be the Upgrade of the Kildare and Drogheda lines to a DART. This would have in biggest impact on traffic of all projects and would link to the 'Interconnector'.

Next should be a LUAS line from Dundrum to Ballymun (which was originally to be built at the same time as the current RED & GREEN line but Mary O'Rourke decided not to proceed). This again would be cheaper that the 'Airport metro' and would have about 30 stops, compared to 8 on the ‘Metro’.

The Upgrade of the Maynooth Line to a DART would be next, connecting North Dublin City to the other DART lines.

There are also other projects like the LUAS from Lucan to Spencer Dock, LUAS from Howth Jtn to link with the Dundrum/Ballymun line. The re-building of the old Clonee to Navan line, offering a suburban rail service, which would reduce the need for the M3 motorway.

If any metro project should be built, the Metro from Stephens Green to Tallaght, should be a higher priority than the Airport ‘Metro'.

Sorry for going on a bit, but I feel I should show how the Airport ‘Metro’ is not an immediate priority as everybody make it out to be.

FX Meister

Why woule the kildare and drogheda lines need to be electrified? Surely diesel trains like the current commuter would be just as good? But then I'm not too sure on the running costs between electricity and diesel. But surely it would take an awful long time to run overhead power lines to both Kildare and Drogheda. But then it will take a long time to get the carriages that would be ordered for the lines.

narommy

Afaik The deisel rail cars were designed to be concerted to electriacal powered units. I think they pick up speed and stop quicker if electrified and thus are better for comuter routes with lots of stops.

Also they are more reliable and are easier to repair. (Which could be why the train is more popular in europe.


One other point. If and luas line had 30 stops nobody would use it because it would take ages to get into town. Otherwise weehamster has some goodpoints

FX Meister

But can we convert them here or do we need to send them away? There's two married couple darts being sent to the czech republic shortly for refurbishment, surely it costs an arm and a leg to send them all the way over there

narommy

I don't know but it couldn't cost more than it would here. And I don't know if there would be much relevant expertise here

jlang

narommy wrote:

One other point. If and luas line had 30 stops nobody would use it because it would take ages to get into town. Otherwise weehamster has some goodpoints

I think he meant 30 stops between Dundrum and Ballymun vs. 8 for the metro from town to the Northside only.