Taoiseach says no to METRO ?

thejollyrodger

Does it look like there will be no METRO ? Typical Bertie, sit on the project for
years then say no. A few years later then realise that "if we knew then what we know now about the increased traffic at Dublin Airport" and then have to go ahead with it.

Taoiseach accused of reneging on Metro promise
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1275721&issue_id=11598

TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern was accused by opposition parties of reneging on another election promise after he told the Dail there will be no State-funding for a Metro system in Dublin.

Last night Green Party leader Trevor Sargent said it was clear from the Taoiseach's response to his questions that the Government is rowing back on its promise to build the first stage of a Dublin Metro from the airport to the city centre.

"This promise was made before the last election and is in the Programme for Government," Mr Sargent said last night.

His colleague, Green Party transport spokesman Eamon Ryan TD said the Taoiseach promoted an alternative CIE rail plan as being "cheaper and more viable" than the metro, despite the fact that the former Transport Minister, Seamus Brennan dismissed the alternative CIE rail connection to the airport.

Mr Ryan accused the Taoiseach of trying to "muddy the waters" by saying the Government could not afford a proposal for a full Metro system when no one had considered anything other than the first link from St Stephen's Green to Swords.

"The Rail Procurement Agency presented the business case for the Metro to the Government almost two years ago. In the interim we have had nothing but indecision and waffle from the Taoiseach," he added.

Mr Ahern told the Dail that a direct link to the airport by 2007 was not going to happen because the financial cost would swallow nearly all the resources of the State.

Brian Dowling
Political Correspondent

BrianD

Well done Bertie! I knew once Brennan went we would have a decision on this and the right one. We would have wasted millions on this white elephant. Hopefully, we can concentrate our minds on developing and expanding the existing rail infrastructure to expand the DART in Dublin and the construction of further tram lines.

sliabh

BrianD wrote:

Well done Bertie! I knew once Brennan went we would have a decision on this and the right one.

There is nothing new in this. BA has been fence sitting on this one for some time, and his line has been pretty consistent "I don't think we have the money". Or did you think that someone really had suggested we would have a metro in place by 2007 as the article mentions.

This is just the Green party looking for political capital. There is no new "news" here. But that is about as much as can be expected from the Indo.

BrianD wrote:

Hopefully, we can concentrate our minds on developing and expanding the existing rail infrastructure to expand the DART in Dublin and the construction of further tram lines.

Well even the interconnector supporters don't feel that it is the be all and end all solution to the Capital's transport problems. And as was pointed out on another thread recently, trams are not the answer either as the current system is pretty much maxed out already.

Dart extensions sound good too, but where are you going to put the tracks? Running them on the surface in Dublin is going to be about as expensive as underground when you have to take property purchases into account.

BrianD

The electrification (or Dartification) of existing rail network and with expansion would address Dublins rail transport needs. This expansion element would include a swords via airport link, the Dunboyne link and the interconnector. This would be tunnelled as required.

The gaps between the heavy rail line would be filled in by light rail at street level. For example the Green Line could be extended to go to DCU and then to Ballymun. There could be spurs off the existing lines. I don't know where you get the impression that tram lines are maxed out. Show me a mass transit sysytem that is not standing room only at peak times.

sliabh

BrianD wrote:

The electrification (or Dartification) of existing rail network and with expansion would address Dublins rail transport needs. This expansion element would include... ...the interconnector.

I have said it before and I will say it again, this is fine for people that live beyond the city limits, but those of us within it also have major public transport needs that are not being met.

And

BrianD wrote:

a swords via airport link... ...tunnelled as required.

is pretty much the north end of the metro!

BrianD wrote:

I don't know where you get the impression that tram lines are maxed out.

I get it from watching people failing to get onto packed trams in the morning at Milltown when heading into town. And I have to listen to my GF who regularly experiences this problem. For her it reached the point where she has gone back to using her car instead of the Luas.

thejollyrodger

Dublin needs a metro. Anyone with any vision would tell you than the airport and swords etc needs a metro. Spread over the lifetime of the service, the cost isnt a lot. One option is to have the private sector to build the entire thing but the main problem is Bertie Ahern. The so called leader has absolutely no vision what so ever.

sharkman

thejollyrodger wrote:

Dublin needs a metro. Anyone with any vision would tell you than the airport and swords etc needs a metro. Spread over the lifetime of the service, the cost isnt a lot. One option is to have the private sector to build the entire thing but the main problem is Bertie Ahern. The so called leader has absolutely no vision what so ever.

I agree , Dublin Airport is one of the few capitol cityes with no rail link to its airport . Just go up there any morning @ 5.30 and try to drive to the Terminal Building .. For that matter try it @ any time !

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

I get it from watching people failing to get onto packed trams in the morning at Milltown when heading into town. And I have to listen to my GF who regularly experiences this problem. For her it reached the point where she has gone back to using her car instead of the Luas.

I commute from Milltown and have never failed to get on a tram - yes it might be quite busy but its rush hour people! They are supposed to be busy!

How can your GF go back to the car? Sit in traffic for up to an hour on the way into the City when you could be there in 15mins max by tram?

BrianD

With all due respects Sliabh can you explain how a metro could POSSIBLY address the needs of the city area that could not be met with an expansion and development of existing heavy rail and future light rail. The Brennan metro was a single line. Are you proposing a line under each street??? One to your house? If Carlsberg did Metros ...

I'm not even talking about the heavy rail serving the outer suburbs it can serve the metropolitan area as it is. A rail link to the airport would be ideal but hardly essential - the airport is already serviced adequately by private and public bus. Rail may offer a speedier journey but bus offers the same convenience in every other respect.

Rail upgrade is fast and speedy away to get a city metro.

aliveandkicking

Metro is just a name. Some people on this thread seem to think that a metro is better just because it is called a metro. Bertie favours the Dart running to Drogheda, Maynooth, Kildare, Greystones and the Airport over a single metro line from Stephens Green to the Airport with only four stops in between (none of which integrate with anything else). For once I must say I agree with him.

Take a look at this map and see what I mean

http://www.platform11.org/inter_map.jpg

thejollyrodger

Its a nice picture but isnt it a bit of a mickey mouse job for a modern European capital in the 21st century. It's not like we cant afford modern infastructure anymore.

sharkman

FFS , the metro dont even go to Swords .. The capital of North County Dublin ..


****E ..

Hecate

Of course one line running to the airport from Stephen's isn't 'mickey mouse' at all :rolleyes:

aliveandkicking

thejollyrodger wrote:

Its a nice picture but isnt it a bit of a mickey mouse job for a modern European capital in the 21st century. It's not like we cant afford modern infastructure anymore.

So by your logic an underground rail tunnel called a metro is modern but an underground rail tunnel called Dart is a mickey mouse job :rolleyes:

Lets take someone living in Kildare who wants to travel to the airport by rail.

If the metro is built:
Kildare arrow - Heuston (walk outside to Luas) - Luas to Abbey Street - Walk from Abbey St to O'Connell St (northern end) - get on metro - travel to airport.

If interconnector/Dublin Rail plan is built:
Kildare Dart - Heuston - Cross platform to Airport Dart -travel to airport.

Now tell me again which one is a mickey mouse job?

jank

thast all well and good and I would be all for that but there should be a luas type system for the north of the city, for the likes of finglas, ballymun, santry

Those areas have no access to rail transport

sliabh

enterprise wrote:

How can your GF go back to the car? Sit in traffic for up to an hour on the way into the City when you could be there in 15mins max by tram?

Her place of work is on Baggot street. So she drives to Ranelagh (a short hop from Milltown), and then walks. The walk is pretty much the same as she had from the Luas line, but now she has a more predictable run in the morning.

BrianD wrote:

With all due respects Sliabh can you explain how a metro could POSSIBLY address the needs of the city area that could not be met with an expansion and development of existing heavy rail and future light rail.

Take a look at the map of Dublin or even the P11 rail network map provided by aliveandkicking. There is a huge chunk of the city north of the existing lines running along the Royal Canal and west that are not going to be served by anything other than the north-south metro line.

As this is a rail line that runs right up the middle of a built up area, with no other rail links, it will have to be heavy rail as trams will not provide sufficient capacity, and it will have to be underground.

No one is suggesting that the north-south line is the be all and end all solution to Dublin's transport needs. It's just one more part. As would the interconnector, DART extensions etc.

BrianD wrote:

Metro is just a name. Some people on this thread seem to think that a metro is better just because it is called a metro.

I don't actually. I don't give a shít what it is called. And in fact I prefer to describe it as a north-south airport rail link through the city centre. But that doesn't roll off the tongue so I guess Metro will have to do for shorthand.

It's what it does that is important, i.e. start in a major city suburb/cummuter town, link to an airport with over 40,000 people per day passing through it, then run through a part of the city which has no other rail options (including such major centres as Ballymun and DCU), enter the city centre, and finally continue on to the existing Luas green line, which would be upgraded to a heavy rail line ("Metro" if you want) as was intended.

The city is for the most part is spread out on a north south axis and right now we have one and a half rail links running this way. One (the DART) is heavy rail but it hugs the coast making it unusable to most of the city. The other (the green Luas line) is light rail, and only covers about 25-33% of the distance required (it should run south to Cherrywood and Shankill, and it doesn't go north of the Liffey).

So I don't care what you call it (metro, Berties bullet, ye olde rail contraption or whatever) but there is a need for a north south rail line that runs through the northern and southern suburbs and through the city centre.

Xterminator

Suburbs ike Ballymun and Finglas, with their high density of housing would be ideally suited to a fixed rail line. Given their proximity to the airport it would make sense to run a line from the airport through the suburbs, (enhancing passenger no's and hence profitability to the city.

T'would also make sense to tap into the vast no's of commuters from swords etc, with a large park n ride at that site.

I dont care what is called, Metro or Dart2 etc. Tram or Rail, doesnt really matter!

But a dart extension from Howth JN to the airport, that skips serving the above suburbs would be would take less people off the roads, and provide access to smaller no's of passengers as it would be skipping major population centres!

Both enviornmentally and financially (long term) this doesnt add up!
I dont see any problem with the gov using private finance, a public private partnership, or just plain borrowing to pay for large capital projects like this that will stimualte the economy, and pay for themselves in a relativly short time. It really would be an investment in the future!

X

maxheadroom

I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu here...

Lets not rehash the old arguments again and again, please?

All I'll say on the matter is yes, we need a north south rail line. Preferably running north-west, city cenrte, south-west. We need the full luas network as originally planned. And we need the interconnector + dublin rail plan.
But, in a cost / benefit analysis, the dublin rail plan + interconnector offers more "bang for buck". It makes sense to build it first, then start planning a proper north south heavy rail commuter line / metro line / whatever you want to call it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Having grown up in Ballymun, I know the frustrations of the bus service to the city during the rush hour. It would have been brilliant if we had something like a DART and I do believe that the modernisation of the rail links in Dublin should provide links within the North Central and North West side of the city. Above all there needs to be integration between services rather than an ad-hoc rail link.

The problem I would assume is the fact that the majority of users in these areas would rely on the existing bus service and would probably not commute into the city in cars (although the traffic is still mental).

sliabh

maxheadroom wrote:

I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu here....

Oh yeah, but it's at least a month since we were over this ground

Where's P11Comms by the way? He out sick or something? I would have thought this would be just his sort of thing

maxheadroom wrote:

But, in a cost / benefit analysis, the dublin rail plan + interconnector offers more "bang for buck". It makes sense to build it first, then start planning a proper north south heavy rail commuter line / metro line / whatever you want to call it.

Well the powers that be seem to think differently. As the north-south line is the one that is on the agenda and being debated at the moment.

BrianD

The only reason the north-south rail line is on the agenda is the government fixation on an airport rail link. I am in favour of such a link but the objective should be to serve a population centre - Swords - running via the airport.

The problem with Brennans metro is that it is one big distraction from the real issue of delivering a rail solution as soon as possible. Dublin already has the guts of an urban rail system which is under developed and under marketed at present. A modest development could bring two more rail lines in the city up to DART standard within a short space of time and this would mean an integrated three line DART system. Prague, for example, has a 3 line metro. Critically, the system can be marketed as an integrated commuter solution.

This is not to say that we should stop there but any further rail devlopment should be in the context of expanding from the existing system. The Brennan one line metro would have been an operational and marketing nightmare. We would have three types of rail system - existing IR, light rail and the metro rail and not one of them connected. Each requires its own maintenance facility and unique rolling stock etc. We would be looking for a Luas, a Metro, a Dart an Arrow and a dozen other badly marketed transport brands. The commuter would have no confidence in this hotch potch system of competing and unintegrated transport providers.

Trams are ideal for Dublin and I challenge anyone who says they are not suited for Dublins needs. They are not a solution but part of the solution. Melbourne, for example, uses both heavy rail lines and an extensive tram network to meet its commuter requirements and all are branded as "the Met". Trams work in other cities - larger and smaller than Dublin - so why not here?

dmeehan

BrianD wrote:

Trams work in other cities - larger and smaller than Dublin - so why not here?

coz idiots stop on the yellow boxes and run red lights
:rolleyes:

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

Her place of work is on Baggot street. So she drives to Ranelagh (a short hop from Milltown), and then walks. The walk is pretty much the same as she had from the Luas line, but now she has a more predictable run in the morning.

Umm.. interesting alright. My GF workks off Baggot Street as well. She gets the tram to Harcourt and walks down Hatch street. Her journey to work is never more than 25mins (ok there might be the odd exception but nothing ever works 100% of the time!.

I would still rather get the tram into the city than drive!

sliabh

enterprise wrote:

I would still rather get the tram into the city than drive!

So would she. But space is the problem

BrianD

Sliabh, where does she park in Ranelagh to walk into town?? There is little or no legally free parking in the area!

I find it very difficult to believe that she can not have a predictable journey on the Luas.

BTW some of your quotes attributed to me are not from me (unless they are from an extremely old posting).

MrPudding

sliabh wrote:

So would she. But space is the problem

Is she huge?:D

MrP

sliabh

BrianD wrote:

Sliabh, where does she park in Ranelagh to walk into town?? There is little or no legally free parking in the area!

Ah, that's a secret

BrianD wrote:

BTW some of your quotes attributed to me are not from me (unless they are from an extremely old posting).

Sorry about that. Put it down to sloppy cutting and pasting of quote tags

P11 Comms

Press Release - Platform11 Welcomes Taoiseach’s Dismissal of Dublin Metro in Favour of Extending the DART.

Date: 30 October 2004
Issued by: Platform11 Press Office

Platform11 – Ireland’s National Rail Passenger Lobby applauds the Taoiseach’s recent comments in the Dail in which he rejected the RPA’s grossly over-priced Dublin Metro project in favour of the more viable CIE Dublin Rail Plan/Interconnector proposal to extend the DART into a vast area of Leinster, including Dublin Airport.

The Government has at times been criticised in some quarters for making decisions based on political rather than practical realities. However, in this case, the Government have nailed their flag to the mast for all the right reasons and Platform11 heartily congratulates this decision.

Since we at Platform11 implemented our highly successful www.extendthedart.com campaign, there has been universal support from within all political circles and more importantly, from the ordinary rail commuter, many of whom implemented their own personal communications with TDs and other political representatives explaining why the Greater Dublin Rail Plan/Interconnector was the more intelligent option over the Airport Metro.

In terms of public transport development in Ireland, the ‘Extend the DART’ campaign has been truly historic, with thousands of public transport users expressing their own opinion on public transport development, rather than economists and consultants issuing reports on their behalf. Nothing like it has been seen before in Ireland. These are the people at the “coalface” of public transport who have a personal stake in rail transport development in Ireland. This previously silent constituency of rail commuters have now been mobilised into a growing and vocal force via Platform11’s ‘Extend the DART’ campaign and the Government have taken notice.

Platform11 wish to express our sincere thanks to all the politicians, journalists and most importantly of all, the everyday rail commuter in the Greater Dublin Region and beyond who got behind our “Extend the DART” campaign. Credit must also be given to CIE/IE management who have developed what is a truly visionary public transport plan for a relatively modest cost when compared to the Luas, Metro and NRA Budget. This is now the “only game in town” and rightly so.

Platform11 looks forward to the Government making an imminent announcement, which will give the green light to Iarnród Éireann so work can begin work on this visionary and vital DART expansion programme. The DART has been the most successful public transport project in the history of the State – the time has now come to expand this major success story to the rest of the city and beyond. We simply have no choice.

ENDS

antoinolachtnai

P11 Comms wrote:

Press Release - Platform11 Welcomes Taoiseach’s Dismissal of Dublin Metro in Favour of Extending the DART.

But the taoiseach didn't say anything about building the rail interconnector, did he?

The reality is that the rail interconnector would cost the same sort of money to build (billions of euros) as the Metro. The estimates that have been done so far seem pretty preliminary to me.

Mind you, increasing the DART to metro-like frequencies wouldn't cost nearly as much, and would really improve things.

BrianD

The reality is that the rail interconnector would cost the same sort of money to build (billions of euros) as the Metro. The estimates that have been done so far seem pretty preliminary to me.

But a t least it will be an integral part of an urban rail network, not a stand alone line.

A Dub in Glasgo

antoinolachtnai wrote:

Mind you, increasing the DART to metro-like frequencies wouldn't cost nearly as much, and would really improve things.

Improve things for who? The people who already have a fantastic service? What about the vast areas of Dublin that have no rail link at all?