Criminal Justice Bill 2004

rrpc

Sparks wrote:

Coffee. Blast. Now I have to print those three pages again

Well you should use a larger print so you don't have to pore over them so assiduously

Sparks

You pointing out holes in my arguments again rrpc?

les45

3 year licence to cost €114.00 per firearm!!!!!!!, certainly lots of people just wont bother, or will we have the option of a one year permit.

Clare gunner

SHEESHHH!What a mess!!And not only in the firearms dept of the act.After reading this last nite and the pertinent points Sparks brought up.
The only GOOD things in the whole I can see are;
The three year liscense and the right to appeal to the DC.And even THAT is a bit of a balls up.
BAD
The reloading issue,
The "restricted firearms"debacle which is so ambigious it could even restrict currently issued pumps and semi autos.[Did anyone notice in the bill somwhere,a mention of type of weapon that is reloads by an action of it's
foregrip???I saw it,was too tired and forgot to mark it last nite,and cant find it now.]Not to mind the whole club procedure.

As perusual it is Irish legislation at it's best.Alot of telling you what you MUST do,not alot of HOW you can do it.Or WHAT is specifically illegal.
And as usual leaving it up to somone in authorithy to their own decisions on it.
Obvisouly Mc Dowells is covering his rear if he is voted out,and a brilliant bit of "we are tough on crime and guns".If he is voted in again.All in all wont make a blind bit of difference to criminals,or "gun crime"and we really arent that much better off than before.:(

civdef

It'd be no dearer than the current 38x3 in that case, my own suspicion is it'll be higher in any case, it's a good few years since the fee increased.

Clare gunner

les45 wrote:

3 year licence to cost €114.00 per firearm!!!!!!!, certainly lots of people just wont bother, or will we have the option of a one year permit.

E38 Per Annum.Looks like the shotgun cert has gone up to rifle cert prices.
Not surprised with our Rippoff Ireland culture that somone was going to erke money out of this somwhere.:rolleyes:
No wonder the liscensing of the man and not the gun was never going to fly.No money in it for our beloved Govt.

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Did anyone notice in the bill somwhere,a mention of type of weapon that is reloads by an action of it's foregrip???I saw it,was too tired and forgot to mark it last nite,and cant find it now.

Head 42, amending section 1 of the Firearms Act 1925. It's a standalone paragraph that's supposed to define "action type":

"the expression "action type" in relation to any firearm means that it is designed or adapted so that it is either automatically reloaded or so designed or adapted that it is reloaded by manual operation at the forestock of the firearm;

I think the words "gibberish", "nonsensical" and the phrase "bad grammar" apply...

No wonder the liscensing of the man and not the gun was never going to fly.No money in it for our beloved Govt.

Actually, there is - they've saved two-thirds of the garda-hours used every year on licencing. That's got to have a significant euro value...

jaycee

Actually, there is - they've saved two-thirds of the garda-hours used every year on licencing. That's got to have a significant euro value..

Actually.. there isn't ..
Because....

All current licences expire @ the end of July... Therefore...

Sparks

jaycee wrote:

Actually.. there isn't ..
Because....
All current licences expire @ the end of July... Therefore...

Therefore, they do 220,000 this year, only a handful next year, only a handful the next year, then 220,000 the next year and so on. It averages out around a third of the current cost over some years.

les45

Also a possible requirement of a Medical Doctors referance and two referees, very similar to current PSNI practice, my own feeling would be that the range spec will be based on PSNI best practice.Which in itself will put a great strain on some of the smaller clubs.

jaycee

Originally Posted by jaycee
Actually.. there isn't ..
Because....
All current licences expire @ the end of July... Therefore...

Therefore, they do 220,000 this year, only a handful next year, only a handful the next year, then 220,000 the next year and so on. It averages out around a third of the current cost over some years.

Sorry .. posted in a rush,
What I meant to say was that they could have saved far more by staggering the renewals of current licences .

Slinks away muttering.....

Clare gunner

les45 wrote:

Also a possible requirement of a Medical Doctors referance and two referees, very similar to current PSNI practice, my own feeling would be that the range spec will be based on PSNI best practice.Which in itself will put a great strain on some of the smaller clubs.

Possible and farscial.And also very dubious in a legal sense.As even a patient is not entitled to view their own medical records held by their GP.Unless your GP is a qualified shrink as well and able to recognise somone about to lose it compleatly.
Two referees,Off we go now no doubt to bother our parish preist and postman or teacher
!!!Jeesz do w e HAVE to import every bit of nonsensical crap that the rest of the world tried and finds that it fails miserably.We have to adapt it and say it will work!!!
I am really begining to wonder did the DOJ ever READ ANY of the suggestions sent in to them by shooters???Sure as feck does not seem to be that way.:mad:

Sparks

As even a patient is not entitled to view their own medical records held by their GP.

Er, no. Anyone's entitled to see any record held on them by anyone under the Data Protection Act.

I am really begining to wonder did the DOJ ever READ ANY of the suggestions sent in to them by shooters?

Well, the appeals bit and the multi-year licences do see to have come from us. The lower muzzle energy limit looks like it came from the airsofters. And there are a few others, but mostly it looks like the DoJ took what we wanted and then coated it in razor blades.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

Er, no. Anyone's entitled to see any record held on them by anyone under the Data Protection Act.

Er nope,DPA applies only to stuff written,stored or otherwise electronically managed.Not to hand written documents[that was the major SNAFU of it in 1990,Mr O Dea had somthing to do with it as well].You will still find a doc will store the more pertinent info on paper,as will lawyers,accountants,private eyes etc.

, but mostly it looks like the DoJ took what we wanted and then coated it in razor blades.

Aint that a fact!!

FLAG

Hi Folks

Perhaps it may aid circulation, attached are the appropriate documents in word format, open to technical change before they go before the committee stage!

Regards
Declan

Dvs

Hello All,
having read through quite a bit of the proposed ammendments to the CJB,
I am dismayed, at the utter contempt with which law abiding members of the shooting sports community, are being treated by this list of proposed ammendments by The Minister for Justice.

Any and all matters, on which the Garda have been brought to court, due to their unlawful behaviour in relation to firearms applications are proposed to be "fixed" and any possble future legal challenges will result in a "fixing" of the parts of the CJB that left it possble to mount a challenge by either the Minister or the Garda Commisioner.

It appears that the Minister feels that he alone knows what is best,
and as others have said if he so desires, these proposals if passed as is, would give him the power to do as he pleases, without anyone being able to challenge it in a real way, the idea of the District court dealing with any matters in relation to the refusal to issue a firearms license, on the face of it seems like a great idea, no more waiting months or years to get into the High Court, the District Court Judge, can direct the Superintendent to issue the license, big deal, because the next day the Superintendent and or Garda Commissioner can impose conditions on your firearms license, that nobody could meet, they could also require your club to improve, change or totally
re- build their range,i f you are licensed the for use on your clubs range,
that will make you popular !

The proposed restricted list of firearms, and the restricted list of ammunition, are great broad undefined catch all ammendments and the Ministers powers to without consultation or reason may add anything to either list.

So you apply for your firearms license for a semi auto centrefire rifle to use in legitimate competition shooting,your Superintendent refuses, or it's already been put on the Ministers restricted list of firearms and he refuses, you go have your day in the District court and win! woo hoo!:D

You get issued your license, import your rifle great!
then the Minister adds the caliber of rifle ammunition that your new rifle uses to the list of restricted ammunition! Boo Hoo,:( your are now the proud owner of a legally held, €2000 paper weight!:mad:

With regards to the reloading license,
it appears by the wording, that a meeting was held, where the question of, why would someone want to reload ammunition? was asked.

well the answer is, Minister that, competition shooters need to practice to become better at their chosen sport therefore the cost of ammunition is a factor that might make shooters want to reload.

mmmm... say the Minister, well we had better put in that reasons of economy are not a valid reason for reloading that should stop a lot of them.

Also Minister another reason could be, to create ammunition to suit the shooters firearm, better than factory produced ammunition and make it shoot with greater accuracy.

mmmm... say the Minister, thats a little harder to put a stop to,
I know says a DOJ whizzkid we will word it, so you have the power to say how many components they may have in their possession, if you make it a small enough amount,and you can come up with a new requirement for reloaders every month just to keep them guessing, then it might put a few more off the idea!

The proposed 3 year license is a positive thing,
But is not being done for your or my benefit, it's for the Garda to free up resources,which is fair enough, I would rather the Garda were on the street than in the station doing paper work.

The bottom line here is these are proposed ammendments,

Thus far,
we still live in a democracy, do not just take this without making your voice heard, with the attitude that, we cant do anything to change this.

Now is the time to write to your local politicians regardless of what party they are, and express your objections to any parts of the CJB that you object to, ask them to respond to you in writing, with their position on these matters,if they agree with your objections, ask them to make representations on your behalf on the matter.

If they do agree, make sure, you let everyone involved in shooting sports in your area know this.



If they dont agree,make sure, you let everyone involved in shooting sports in your area know this also!

If you are a member of your local NARGC gun club get them up to speed, this will effect all types of shooters.

Debating the proposals here is a great idea and is helpful to anyone that may not wish to sit and read through it, but the only hope of effecting change in this is to make your voice heard

Regards,
Dvs.

Dvs

Further to my previous post,
Does the Minister realises, that criminals don't respect the law!

The Minister,
creates a new offence of cutting the barrel of a shotgun, to less that 24".

Does he imagine that criminals say, I must get rid of that sawn off illegally held shotgun, because I will now be breaking another law !

The answer, I am afraid is no!

The law as it's written, deals with criminals breaking the law, the problem is enforcment of the law and prosecutions taking too long in coming to court,
criminals being sent home after being charged, and having months to commit crimes before they come to court.

This is an exercise in dealing with those, that do respect the law,
and have successfully used the law to challenge the state,
by removing the simple conditions of granting a firearms license contained in the Firearms Act that have worked successfully since 1925, apart from the actions of a few Superintendents, but it has been possible to challenge them in the High court and win,handing all the power to the Minister for Justice and the Garda Comissioner to use it, without control, how they please would not be a positive change.

A once off set of guidelines, ammended into the act, to give an even handed approach to dealing with firearms applications across the State, would be far more sense and less open to abuse.

Are the Criminals in the State, concerned about the CJB and the draconian powers, proposed to be given to the Minister for Justice and the Garda Commissioner?

Not in the least............


Dvs.

rrpc

Lads, there are two ways of looking at this bill, and we all seem to have been looking at it with the peril sensitive sunglasses on. It appears that the bill is giving a greater degree of lattitude to local supers and firearms officers. I would think the reason for this is to allow the Gardai to make decisions on the ground about clubs and ranges using their local knowledge. The power of the commissioner to delegate spells it out clearly that these are the people that you need to get to know and love you

There has been one well discussed case on this board of a club being shall we say somewhat paramilitary in their running of events, and you can see a need for the Gardai to be able to step in and close them down and remove the firearms from their members quickly. This can only be a positive thing for our sports, as it protects the rest of us law abiding citizens from the excesses of a minority.

The existence of range inspection officers, likewise is a help, as it will create a body of Gardai, who will have expertise (in time) in how ranges should be set up safely, and who will be able to give advice on setting them up. This is a form of protection from the type of people who can and will object to your range and remove the current ambiguity as to approval of ranges.

You can take the view that the bill's lattitude towards Gardai setting standards will always work against us, but there is an opposing view that the lattitude can be exercised in our favour. More responsibility is being thrust on the clubs in this bill, but with that responsibility comes more rights as well. Being recognised in law is one right that has not existed before this bill was published. Having it written in law that cert holders for target shoting must be a member of an approved club will do wonders for our membership, and will help develop facilities around the country.

Something that always worried me in the past, is the fact that a person once having obtained their license through a club, can then allow their membership to lapse and then carry on blithely, with the buck eventually coming to rest back with the club if they misbehave. Now if that membership lapses, the individual loses their firearm, or if they are expelled from a club, the same will happen.

Sparks

rrpc wrote:

Lads, there are two ways of looking at this bill, and we all seem to have been looking at it with the peril sensitive sunglasses on.

As they say rrpc, you have to work to kill a pessimist, an optimist will do it for you...

It appears that the bill is giving a greater degree of lattitude to local supers and firearms officers.

And the Minister and the Commissioner. Which means that if the Minister, the Commissioner, the Firearms Range Inspectors and the Superintendents all liase with and love the target shooting community, then we'll all be fine and happy.

But you get one McCarthy or Kehoe or Nally and suddenly the Minister has been handed a reason to be seen to be "doing something" and more than enough means to do it. What Minister would resist?

I would think the reason for this is to allow the Gardai to make decisions on the ground about clubs and ranges using their local knowledge.

And I would think that the entire document stinks to high heaven of a backlash against the militant "negotiation" style used to now between the shooting community and the DoJ. The original amendments in Section 30 basicly overrode Dunne v. Donoghue. Those at the 2001 NRPAI AGM where FLAG was formed will recall JK Walsh's rememberance of what happened when they went to the DoJ in '72 to get their firearms back; they were told explicitly that they might go to court and win on Monday, but by Friday there'd be a new Firearms Act and the court ruling would no longer be applicable. So we take them to court over the Commissioner drafting guidelines, it's won in the High Court, it's appealed to the Supreme Court and we still win, and then a short while later there's a small footnote of an amendment tucked away in the miscellaneous section of a Bill that in a single paragraph overrules the case. Which is exactly what was said would happen.

Take that, take the statement from the DoJ that the amendments would "address recent court cases", take the highly adversarial approach that has been taken with the DoJ (all things we've pointed out here in the past two years) and you get a different read on what this document is. It's a slapdown for FLAG and the other bodies that were negotiating with the DoJ. Every case taken over the past few years has been looked at, a way found around it in legislation, and the law rewritten to drill it into us that we exist on sufferance and privilege, not rights. :mad:

As DvS just put it:

Any and all matters, on which the Garda have been brought to court, due to their unlawful behaviour in relation to firearms applications are proposed to be "fixed" and any possble future legal challenges will result in a "fixing" of the parts of the CJB that left it possble to mount a challenge by either the Minister or the Garda Commisioner.

About the only group who would have seen this coming did and said so at the 2001 NRPAI AGM when FLAG was founded - the college clubs, who can't be under any illusions as to their status with respect to the college authorities (who basicly want them to shut down and go away). Should these amendments go through (and realistically, who's going to stop them?), we'll all be in their shoes. And given the hard-headedness of some, it's likely we'll lose a club or two (hopefully temporarily).

The power of the commissioner to delegate spells it out clearly that these are the people that you need to get to know and love you

And the power of the Minister and Commissioner to overrule says that no matter how much they know and love you, they can't do much for you if Upstairs says otherwise.

There has been one well discussed case on this board of a club being shall we say somewhat paramilitary in their running of events, and you can see a need for the Gardai to be able to step in and close them down and remove the firearms from their members quickly. This can only be a positive thing for our sports, as it protects the rest of us law abiding citizens from the excesses of a minority.

In other words, because we didn't police ourselves, we're now to be policed.

The existence of range inspection officers, likewise is a help, as it will create a body of Gardai, who will have expertise (in time) in how ranges should be set up safely

IF they're trained to do so. And we all know how the introduction of the local firearms officers in stations created a trained body of gardai with firearms expertise...

More responsibility is being thrust on the clubs in this bill, but with that responsibility comes more rights as well.

We reading the same amendments? I see no rights of any kind being granted in this document, save that of appeal to a lower court; a right which is so qualified and overridable as to be practically inert.

Being recognised in law is one right that has not existed before this bill was published.

That's not a right.

Having it written in law that cert holders for target shoting must be a member of an approved club will do wonders for our membership, and will help develop facilities around the country.

Indeed; assuming that (a) backyard ranges are deemed safe by the Minister, who sets the guidelines, and (b) that Fingal Target Shooting Club (or any of the dozens of other ranges in the same situation) doesn't take a lawsuit against the Minister for overruling the Walls' constitutional right to privacy. (The FTSC range is basicly in the Walls' home; the amendments say any range or anywhere a range is suspected to be operating, may be searched by the Gardai; your constitutional rights forbid this if it's your home - so how does that knot resolve itself? )

Now is the time to write to your local politicians regardless of what party they are, and express your objections to any parts of the CJB that you object to, ask them to respond to you in writing, with their position on these matters,if they agree with your objections, ask them to make representations on your behalf on the matter.

Your local TD can't do much now, it's out of the Dail and into the Committee and then Seanad stages. Writing to your Senator, or indeed all Senators, however, that would have some effect. And writing to every single TD on the Committee list would as well.

Mind you, just the one angry abusive letter, and we can kiss goodbye to that idea in a puff of smoke

FLAG wrote:

Hi Folks
Perhaps it may aid circulation, attached are the appropriate documents in word format, open to technical change before they go before the committee stage!

In that first document Declan, are those notes on each page yours or the departments?

As to the second document, I'd have thought that that would have left enough of a bad taste in all our mouths after seeing the amendments that you'd stop sending it round. Seeing what's coming and then rereading "I thank the many sporting organisations involved in shooting, particularly the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland. They have engaged constructively with the Department in the development of a number of these new proposals. "; I would have thought that even you would be sick to your stomach reading that and then seeing what came of it.

Clare gunner

And here is another catch.Supposing you want to set up a range ,will the Doj/gardai supply a standard specification plan of what constitutes a "safe "range for all types of firearms or just a specific type.IE you dont really need a 6m sand backstop if you are shooting airpistol.Or will it be a "build it lads,then well decide if it good enough for us to approve."
Not only that for new ranges there will be one problem as well ,planning permission.So these approved plans are going to have to fit into specs approved by every town,city, and county council in the 26 counties.How does that work?
As for insisting on being a club member to keep a firearm.
Again another catch 22.As I said there is nowt out West of the Shannon.So we want to apply for a liscense,be a club member says the cheif.But there isnt any clubs here.Join one.Everything east of the Shannon is full,try setting up one with a range.Ah then you must have PP,a site ,and proably sure build somthing according to the pp issued by your council.Nope not good enough, says the range inspector,cant issue your liscense.Now you have an approved pp range but no RI cert.Who overrides who?Sorry cant issue a liscense says the super as your club isnt approved,therefore you must build it to approved range inspector standards.You do so,and the planning dept jumps you for unauthorised modification of a structure.

Also AFIK there is belive it a human rights issue.Who says you must attend every week at your pistol club or wherever for instruction?This six months probie membership before you get issued is utter baloney!!!
Nor do some of us wish to drive round trip 200 miles on lousey roads once a week in the middle of a winters night to attend at our "local" club.
It was proven as well to be a failure in another shooting in the UK post Hungerford,as it was in Erfurt ,Germany where the nut there was in a police gun club!!!
Also with no blowing of my own trumpet,and surely there are a few like me out there,who have done courses with firearms and their usage,well beyond the cal l of sport shooting and saftey issues,are we really going to learn anything new in saftey or handling,etc by hanging around a club for six months to prove ourselves,as ok.
Kind of like asking a experianced combat pilot to go back to pilot 101 on a cessna 172.At least they have the option of dumping down the flight logbooks and saying comon give us the written tests and the practical,and we will get this all sorted out in a weekend of flying. Will any club accept my certs,or anyone elses to prove we are competant in handling firearms above and beyond the call of club saftey??
I mean would a concealed carry permit from AZ USA,or a German weekend course in safe gun handling , carry weight in a club to say ,hey this guy is qualified,give him whatever end of probie test here and now.Or will it be no do the six months as it means nothing type of a situation.
This act throws more problems than it solves.

Sparks

Will any club accept my certs,or anyone elses to prove we are competant in handling firearms above and beyond the call of club saftey??

Interesting point this; for reloading or for general competency in shooting, or for coaching, there's little or no inter-agency recognition. For example, if I get a GBTSF coaches qualification, or even an ISSF one, the NCTC doesn't recognise it. So I'm qualified and accredited by the international governing body; but the national one officially doesn't think I can coach? And likewise for everything else!

This is one of those little unsexy paperwork problems that has needed fixing for a while now. Hopefully we'll get someone who's interested in the unsexy nuts-n-bolts stuff to go and actually do it!

FLAG

Sparks wrote:

In that first document Declan, are those notes on each page yours or the departments?

As to the second document, I'd have thought that that would have left enough of a bad taste in all our mouths after seeing the amendments that you'd stop sending it round. Seeing what's coming and then rereading "I thank the many sporting organisations involved in shooting, particularly the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland. They have engaged constructively with the Department in the development of a number of these new proposals. "; I would have thought that even you would be sick to your stomach reading that and then seeing what came of it.

Sparks: These notes are not mine, why do you bash me at every opportunity, the amendments are certainly harsh and have potential to cause issues but they may also help in a big way to protect the sport. You know I can assure you that without a great deal of work by us in February and March of this year there would have been an outright BAN on all pistols, so stop giving me a hard time, I am not responsible for the amendments as they stand, that is the bigger picture, what is assured is at least, a three year license, the recognition that Pistol shooting is an itegral part of a shooting club, reloading, a right of appeal to a refusal, three month time limit on a decision. Clubs being authorised to the Nothern Ireland Standard for construction will ensure that the members have no issues getting licenses for the firearms that they want. We have to take the rough with the smooth, bitching and speculating about what will happen will do no good, we need to engage positively as appropriate to ensure that things do work in our favour, if half the energy expended on the boards was channeled into positive proactive work we would all be better off. I am not sick in my stomach from what I see I was aware of the broad outline as I have posted in the past, least anyone think that it was any easy ride they would be mistaken.

There is a lot of good in the amendments, we also have to be aware of the bigger picture, do you think it hels us that Gun related crime while ahving no bearing on sport shooting is running riot in the country and we are lucky to be out of the lime light on it. Leave me alone

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

Sparks: These notes are not mine, why do you bash me at every opportunity

The first question wasn't a bash. The second wasn't either, though I can see how it could be interpreted as such. Frankly though, it's an honest statement - were I in your shoes, I wouldn't like to be sending round that second document.

the amendments are certainly harsh and have potential to cause issues

You think?

but they may also help in a big way to protect the sport.

If applied by people who want to see the sport prosper, and if we had the organisation and money to support the needed changes, yes, we'd have a better end product. But with our current setup, this is just going to leave us poor in pocket and poorer in numbers by the time it goes through.

You know I can assure you that without a great deal of work by us in February and March of this year there would have been an outright BAN on all pistols

Prove it please. Nothing I've seen or heard from those who'd know has indicated any such thing. Hell, the DoJ was originally considering bringing pistols back in the mid-90s according to NRPAI committee members; we turned them down (in another "we want it all or we want nothing" stand :rolleyes: ), not the other way round.

, so stop giving me a hard time, I am not responsible for the amendments as they stand

No, you're just the official liason between the NRPAI and the DoJ. By your own actions. Yeah, I can't see any possible way that any fault could be laid at your feet, not at all. I mean, arguing that you have rights to firearms, accusing the Minister of lying to the Dail, saying that the commissioner didn't know anything about crime statistics, or constantly going about asking "Has Justice/The Gardai Lost The Plot?", none of these actions could have in any way negatively impacted on the process, right?

what is assured is at least, a three year license, the recognition that Pistol shooting is an itegral part of a shooting club

Sure, until pistols are declared restricted.

reloading

But not to save money. And that court case I mentioned earlier, where a shooter is now being prosecuted for possession of unlicenced ammunition because he had empty cartridges in a different calibre to his licence, is not helped at all - and that's important because it means that anyone with one of these can be legally charged the same way:

And how many shooters or clubs have one of these on their walls?

a right of appeal to a refusal

Unless it's for a junior shooter, and with the caveats built into the rest of the bill, I'd love to see the legal argument you'd use to see a Superintendent's decision overturned!

three month time limit on a decision.

And how many decisions (as a percentage of the overall) take longer than that now? Yes, it's good; but it's not worth the price!

Clubs being authorised to the Nothern Ireland Standard for construction will ensure that the members have no issues getting licenses for the firearms that they want.

Clubs being built to that standard and run properly would have the same effect; but now any club just starting up has to start up at nearly world-class levels! How much money will that take? How much hassle with planning permission? How does this affect those that shoot informal targets over rough land? What about those whose range is in their back yards, like Fingal?

We have to take the rough with the smooth

That's cold comfort right now when it looks like we're going to take both up the orifice!

we need to engage positively as appropriate to ensure that thing do work in our favour, if half the energy expended on the boards was channeled into positive proactive work we would all be better off.

I keep hearing this; I've yet to see any proof that our discussing things on boards so that everyone knows what's going on is in any way a bad thing. On the contrary, it means everyone's informed better and there's less of this "behind closed doors" attitude that has strangled Irish Shooting in it's sleep for the past few decades.

I am not sick in my stomach from what I see I was aware of the broad outline as I have posted in the past

Really? And you didn't think to tell us "lads, it's going to be a bit rough, but we'll be getting X, Y and Z in return"? You didn't think to let us know ahead of time what you were trying to secure for us from the DoJ on this round?

There is a lot of good in the amendments

If they're implemented favourably towards us! We have no assurances whatsoever that this will be so, and much precedent to think the opposite will be true - remember, before now, an anti-firearms Super caused problems in one out of 183 districts; now one anti-firearms commissioner or minister and we have problems in all districts.

we also have to be aware of the bigger picture, do you think it hels us that Gun related crime while ahving no bearing on sport shooting is running riot in the country and we are lucky to be out of the lime light on it.

I think that we ought to be willing to use that to our advantage, actually.

Leave me alone

You volunteered for that job Declan. If you're now regretting it, there's noone twisting your arm, and frankly, if you're not planning on ever telling anyone what you're doing before you do it in all our names, I'd rather you just walked away. I remember your attitude towards the DoJ over the past five years, I seriously doubt it had no influence on them; I just think that it happened to have the same effect as poking a bear with a stick.

chem

Firstly can i say. Sparks grow up, sit down and shut up. I feel its people like you that have put the shooting sports in the spot its in. NO NO NO nottings ever good enough for you and everyones wrong and your always right. If you would just listen for awhile and stop with the Im sooooo cleaver aproch. you might see that the job Declan has is not easy. Im sure it wasnt all tea and biskits when dealing with the DoJ.

Declan is trying his best for the sport. When was the last time you had a sit down with DoJ? When was the last time you were in the high courts fighting for a pistol or rifle licence? We can all be armchair know it alls. By the way just so , when your picking apart my post. You cant trow this in my face..... My name is Ian and im from Co. Louth. I dont belong to any clubs or orgs as i have found them to always have some know it all who wont listen to anyone and goes ahead does what he/she wants and more times then most mucks it up for everyon in the club. Oh and i dont know Declan. Now glad i finaly got that off my chest

Any way the new laws seem to be just directed at licenced gun owners, in that all the fines have gone up for us and i might be wrong but does it say, that if i have 101 rounds and im only licenced for 100. I can be fined up to €1,500 or go to prison for a year?

Also ill be guilty if im found to have a magazine (component part) from lets say an AK47 or M16?

Its all left very open in a catch all, can ban anything at any time for any reason type law.

Also i noticed with the restricted firearms. Oh yea i can have one but i have to fully comply with section 4. Have a good AND sufficient reason. And this is the most intresting one (c) the restricted firearm is of such a UNIQUE type as to be the ONLY weapon appropriate for the purpose.

I tryed to think to myself if semi autos are to be restricted what reason could you give for having one in this country? I couldnt come up with an answer! so me thinks there gone

I think or tightest gun laws in the world prize is safe for my life time. Hope it all works out for the best doh.

Sparks

chem wrote:

I feel its people like you that have put the shooting sports in the spot its in.

I know you'd think that, but what else would you think when information's controlled seven ways from sunday by our own organisations?

NO NO NO nottings ever good enough for you and everyones wrong and your always right.

No, not always. But here's the deal; rarely do we see anything that's good enough to not criticise. Mainly because everyone goes "erra, that'll be grand" and not bother.

you might see that the job Declan has is not easy

You ought to try working with him when you're in the same job as he is. You'd soon appreciate that he's one of the reasons it's not easy.

Im sure it wasnt all tea and biskits when dealing with the DoJ.

Can't say about the DoJ, but I can tell you that with the ISC they were willing to work with those that'd work with them and understand what they were looking for; but every time we tried during my time at that arena, we got stepped on by Declan. Not the ISC.

Declan is trying his best for the sport.

Not my sport he's not. And that's from personal experience.

I dont belong to any clubs or orgs as i have found them to always have some know it all who wont listen to anyone and goes ahead does what he/she wants and more times then most mucks it up for everyon in the club. Oh and i dont know Declan.

Probably because you're not in any clubs or orgs...
BTW, how will you keep your licence now that you can't have a licence for target shooting unless you're in a club?

Any way the new laws seem to be just directed at licenced gun owners, in that all the fines have gone up for us and i might be wrong but does it say, that if i have 101 rounds and im only licenced for 100. I can be fined up to €1,500 or go to prison for a year?

Yes.

Also ill be guilty if im found to have a magazine (component part) from lets say an AK47 or M16?

Yes.

Its all left very open in a catch all, can ban anything at any time for any reason type law.

Precisely.

Also i noticed with the restricted firearms. Oh yea i can have one but i have to fully comply with section 4. Have a good AND sufficient reason. And this is the most intresting one (c) the restricted firearm is of such a UNIQUE type as to be the ONLY weapon appropriate for the purpose.

I'd say that was tied to Nick Flood's court case somehow from how it reads as that was the argument in that case.

I tryed to think to myself if semi autos are to be restricted what reason could you give for having one in this country? I couldnt come up with an answer! so me thinks there gone

Gallery rifle competitions?

chem

Cheers for answering the questions sparks. I hold notting against you or your field of shooting. All i have to go on is seening you attack a man who i see has done alot of background work in getting us our pistols back. I dont know the in`s and out`s and to be honest i dont want to get into the middle of anything.

I will offer my help and services to any club to move the sport on in the right direction but its the inside politics and my sports better then yours that makes me not want to join any club. And to answer your question i dont do target shooting but hope to when a range opens close by in ardee sports Co.

Pack to the point. I noticed that there is a provision to take back licenced guns which may be (restricted) after the laws passed. and the increase of cal of a firearm to a restricted cal is made mention to. So i take it there might be a limit put on the size of ammo that can be used. eg: only up to 9mm permitted in pistols and up to 7.62 in rifles.

I also see blank fire pistols are now classed as a component part of a firearm. Will they have to be licenced or surrendered? if they are surrendered it will look like the country was awash with semi auto pistols when the six one news shows the table full of surrendered weapons, when the amnasty comes in.

The restricted ammo might be expanding ammo for pistols or non hunting rifles.

jaycee

I will offer my help and services to any club to move the sport on in the right direction but its the inside politics and my sports better then yours that makes me not want to join any club. And to answer your question i dont do target shooting but hope to when a range opens close by in ardee sports Co.

The simple fact is that according to the proposed changes to the firearms act ,
if your not in a club ..... You can't own a gun . of any sort.
It's a condition.. in black and white...

I noticed that there is a provision to take back licenced guns which may be (restricted) after the laws passed.

But it dosen't say anywhere what types will be restricted , It could mean that ALL types will be restricted ..theres nothing to prevent it.

and the increase of cal of a firearm to a restricted cal is made mention to

To prevent someone from converting a .22 to a 223 etc..

So i take it there might be a limit put on the size of ammo that can be used.

Not "Might be " ..but.. "Will be"

only up to 9mm permitted in pistols and up to 7.62 in rifles.

Nobody knows ... perhaps no pistols ..perhaps a max of .22 unless you have a Deer permit , then it's Max .270 .. there are no indications.

The restricted ammo might be expanding ammo for pistols or non hunting rifles.

But it could be any form of ammo ..because nothing is defined.

Sparks

chem wrote:

Cheers for answering the questions sparks. I hold notting against you or your field of shooting. All i have to go on is seening you attack a man who i see has done alot of background work in getting us our pistols back. I dont know the in`s and out`s and to be honest i dont want to get into the middle of anything.

Well if it makes you feel any better, it took five years before I got to this stage. I started off thinking as you do, and trying to work with Declan. You can guess that it didn't go as hoped. What happened afterwards is up on the boards, so I won't go into it past saying that I don't hold this opinion of him without just cause.

I will offer my help and services to any club to move the sport on in the right direction but its the inside politics and my sports better then yours that makes me not want to join any club. And to answer your question i dont do target shooting but hope to when a range opens close by in ardee sports Co.

You'll have to join a club at that point. If it helps, most club members stay out of the politics - it's just the ones who help run the club that get exposed to it. Hence the often wildly disparate views between shooters and committees as to what's going on in the community. (Another reason to have this forum).

Pack to the point. I noticed that there is a provision to take back licenced guns which may be (restricted) after the laws passed.

Yes and to pay you for them, which means that unlike '72, ownership will change hands and the guns most likely destroyed. I note that there's nothing in that part about "fair market value" mind...

and the increase of cal of a firearm to a restricted cal is made mention to. So i take it there might be a limit put on the size of ammo that can be used. eg: only up to 9mm permitted in pistols and up to 7.62 in rifles.

That's only one of the ways they could be restricted. It can be done on calibre, muzzle energy, action type, general description or "category", whatever that one means.

I also see blank fire pistols are now classed as a component part of a firearm. Will they have to be licenced or surrendered?

Well, they have to be licenced now anyway...

Sparks

I ought to say sorry for letting that exchange happen in this thread though, it's a tad off-topic. The more personal messages have been moved to the "personal dispute" thread and we'll keep followups there. The posts left here are the ones that had on-topic stuff in them, though frankly I'd like to cut chunks out of them and move those chunks too. Software limitations prevent that, however.

Please, continue discussion of the amendments...

rrpc

Can I just point out that you don't have to be a member of a club to get a license. Only to get a license for a particular (not defined) firearm to take part in target shooting. I would read this as being for pistols primarily as there is no other use that can be given legitimately other than perhaps for deer hunting (for coup de grace), also I think mink despatching could be a case.

Secondly, I would like to point out to Clare Gunner that you would have to get planning permission for a range first before you would get it authorised, and as I have first hand knowledge of that particular process, I doubt very much if the Range Inspector would turn you down, considering the amount of work involved in satisfying a county council planning department.

Anyone who wants to get the details of our planning application, can PM me and I'll make a copy of our (successful) application for them. Be advised that it will cost, as it's quite a large volume, and will cost a bit to have it copied. Our application was for both indoor (up to 25m) and outdoor (up to 100m) ranges on a seven acre site.