Criminal Justice Bill 2004

Rew

Only confirms what we already knew and dosn't say much more. Hopefully we will hear more soon.

jaycee

people are poaching and using dangerous rifles to shoot deer.

As opposed to what ?.."Using totally harmless rifles" ?
Or .. How about providing the Gardaí with their names , it is the people who are dangerous ..not the guns.!

He also apparently uses a shotgun and dosen't like Silencers ...

Why ..?
Whats wrong with silencers ..? they cut down on noise .
I know ..lets ban exhaust's on cars , everyone will hear them coming miles away and there will be less accidents..

Hope we don't hear too much more of this kind of alarmist comment.. :eek:

Sometimes I wonder if we should be more worried about our friends or our enemies..

Flattop 15

[

He also apparently uses a shotgun and dosen't like Silencers ...

Why ..?
Whats wrong with silencers ..? they cut down on noise .
I know ..lets ban exhaust's on cars , everyone will hear them coming miles away and there will be less accidents..

Yup,here is a QED example of the slectivity of our sport in action again.A clay shooter who obvisouly doesnt know damn all about deer hunting or rifles sounding off :mad: :mad: .If you dont know anything about another form of shooting or dont like it can we all please if asked to comment on it PLEASE keep personal opinions /dislikes out of it or just say "dont know anything about that form of shooting ."Or better still just SHUT UP!Especially if you are a politican, or in the presense of the "mejia".
At least he is making noise about "silencers"not sound suppressors or modifers.
Ironic,that you will be done for not having a silencer on your car for noise pollution,and be done for having one on your rifle to prevent noise pollution.
OK Monday morning rant over.

Sometimes I wonder if we should be more worried about our friends or our enemies..

[/QUOTE]

AMEN to that!! :rolleyes:

civdef

It'sa a bit depressing that a member of the Oireachtas (professing to be a shooter himself) choosing to speak on the issue of silencers wasn't aware of the fact that they are already extremely heavily restricted, and that the misuse of firearms he mentions (poaching) is already illegal under a number of statutes.

Sparks

Today's written questions:

*945. To ask the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of submissions been made to this Department, which were sought regarding Section 30 of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004; if these have been presented to the Da´ il Select Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women’s Rights for consideration as part of the committee stage of the Criminal Justice Bill 2004; if these submissions will be made public; and if he will make a statement on the matter. — Trevor Sargent. [24763/05]

Sparks

Answered:

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell): When the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 was published, an invitation was issued to the general public, through the Department’s website, inviting views on section 30 of the Bill. Section 30 provides for the secure custody of firearms and requires all applicants for firearms certificates to satisfy the Garda superintendent, to whom the application is made, that they have provided secure accommodation for the firearm.

My Department has received a large number of comments in response; some favour the proposal, while others oppose it. Many of the respondents refrained from commenting on section 30 of the Bill but took the opportunity to address wider issues relating to the licensing of firearms. In that regard, I have previously informed the House that I will be proposing the inclusion of further provisions in the Bill, and several of those new provisions will address some of the wider issues raised. The Bill is currently on Second Stage in the Dáil, and it is my intention to bring forward the new provisions by way of amendments to the Bill on Committee Stage.

Sparks

The Bill came up in the Dail again yesterday. The relevant bits on the Firearms Act amendments:

Mr. Haughey:
The Bill also addresses gun crime. It will amend the Firearms Acts to require applicants for firearms certificates to satisfy a Garda superintendent that they have provided secure accommodation for their firearms. Concern exists over this measure among gun clubs and game shooting clubs. The shooting of game and clay pigeons is a widespread sport in this country. Game and gun clubs are organised and have responsible members, who are concerned that they are being treated like criminals because this measure is being introduced in the context of the Criminal Justice Bill. I ask the Minister to investigate the concerns of these clubs, which have made submissions to Members and, I am sure, directly to the Minister over the past year. If necessary, he should accommodate their concerns through amendments on Committee and Report Stage.

Mr. Naughten:
With regard to section 30 on firearms storage, approximately 200,000 ordinary, decent people hold gun licences. The inclusion in a criminal justice Bill of provisions covering legally held firearms creates an impression that the holders of such arms are considered criminals. It is wrong to introduce provisions on gun licensing for sporting purposes in criminal justice legislation. Garda statistics show that the illegal use of firearms by licensed gun holders is not a significant problem. The Minister must revisit this section for a number of reasons. He received an extensive submission from the National Association of Regional Game Councils, the representative body of those involved in the legitimate sport of shooting. Its members should not be criminalised by including them in this legislation.

Sensible firearms policies are necessary but this requires modernisation of the 1925 Act. Regulations should be introduced on the storage of guns by tourists. Deputy Jim O’Keeffe, in his contribution on Second Stage earlier in the year, referred to tourists locking guns into the boots of cars, a dangerous practice which is ignored in the Bill. Firearms legislation must address specific firearms issues which should not be dealt with in general criminal justice legislation. The majority of licensed gun holders are decent, law-abiding citizens and the inclusion of section 30 unfairly labels them.

All public representatives are occasionally approached by individuals who have been refused a gun licence without grounds being given by the Garda. As my colleague, Deputy Jim O’Keeffe, noted, the Garda Síochána sometimes receives soft intelligence on specific individuals and this forms the basis of its refusal to issue a gun licence. However, such intelligence does not feature in the majority of refusals. Those refused licences or renewals should be given reasons for the decision and a right of appeal should be enshrined in the legislation to allow a second opinion to be obtained. The area of firearms licences is in need of reform but this should be done in specific firearms legislation rather criminal justice legislation.

That was all; most of the debate centered around the main points of the Bill which relate to increasing Gardai powers, matters relating to the criminal prosecution of minors, and the introduction of ASBOs.

Clash

Is there anything in the bill that would jeopardise the current situation regarding pistols and fullbore rifles?. If not, I would not be in any hurry to remove the amendments from the CJB, as there is so much in there to distract interested (but uneducated) parties from anything to do with firearms. Perhaps that's what the minister had in mind by including it under the CJB?

jaycee

Is there anything in the bill that would jeopardise the current situation regarding pistols and fullbore rifles?.

Thats the $5000 question ..
There are as many theorys on what is contained in the amendments as there are people to express them. Predictions swing the whole way from "All <-- to --->Nothing" and everywhere in between.

Time will tell I guess..

FLAG

Latest from DOJ in response to crime figures: Note reference to firearms amendments:

0.2% Decrease in Headline Crime in the past 12 months


The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr Michael McDowell TD, today published provisional statistics furnished by the Garda Commissioner showing a decrease of 0.2% in the number of headline offences in the twelve months ended 30 September, 2005 compared to the twelve months ended 30 September, 2004.

In the twelve months, some significant decreases were recorded:

Rape of a female down 11%
Unlawful carnal knowledge down 15%
Aggravated sexual assault down 56%
Theft from the person down 19%
Robbery from the person down 26%
However, there have been increases in a number of the most serious categories, including murder and manslaughter (+ 17%), rape section 4 (+ 45%), robbery of an establishment/institution (+ 20%) and possession of drugs for sale or supply (+ 18%).

There was an increase of 0.4% in the first three quarters of 2005 compared with the same period in 2004 and an increase of 5.5% in the third quarter of
2005 compared with the third quarter of 2004. While the statistics for the first three quarters of 2005 show an overall increase of 0.4%, there were notable decreases in some of the more serious categories of crimes:

Manslaughter down 63%
Rape of a female down 14%
Aggravated sexual assault down 57%
Theft from the person down 18%
Robbery from the person down 27%
Since the Minister initiated the publication of crime statistics on a quarterly basis at the beginning of 2003, he has consistently emphasised that care must be taken in interpreting the statistics, especially when considering short term fluctuations and extrapolating trends over short periods.

Nevertheless, the 5.5% increase for the third quarter of 2005 compared to the same period in 2004 is disappointing. However, there has been a significant reduction during the quarter in unlawful carnal knowledge (down 41%), aggravated sexual assault (down 33%), and robbery of an establishment/institution (down 16%).

Today the Minister is using the opportunity of his visit to Templemore to hold one of his regular discussions with the Garda Commissioner and his senior officers regarding their views on the emerging crime trends and strategies to address them.

The Minister said: "While I am pleased that the latest year on year statistics show a continued decrease in the incidence of headline crime, I am very concerned by the increase in the first three quarters of 2005 and in the quarter on quarter figures. Although An Garda Siochana this year has the highest level of resources ever in its history, all concerned, including the legislators, must continue our efforts in combating incidents of crime.

Operation Anvil, which was introduced in May and for which I obtained significant additional resources, has contributed to some encouraging outcomes, including the increase in the detection of possession of firearms of 21% in the quarter. Operation Anvil is tackling the gun culture which was emerging in certain parts of Dublin. The Commissioner has informed me that the total number of headline offences in the Dublin Metropolitan Region fell from 35,377 to 33,536, a reduction of 5%, in the first three quarters of this year compared to the same period in 2004. Recent figures indicate that Operation Anvil has resulted in 812 arrests in connection with murder, serious assaults, burglary, robbery and other serious offences; 3,437 drug searches; 304 firearms searches; 176 firearms seized or recovered; 1,492 vehicles seized and stolen property to the value of approximately Euro2.2 million recovered."

The Minister went on to say "The Government recognises, however, that a great deal more remains to be done, and this is reflected in the Government's comprehensive approach, through, for example, the recruitment of an additional 2,000 Gardai. Against this background, I am introducing a number of important legislative initiatives. The Criminal Justice Bill, which is currently before the Houses of the Oireachtas, provides a comprehensive package of anti-crime measures which will enhance the powers of the Gardai in the investigation and prosecution of offences. It contains an essential updating of our law to ensure that criminal offences can be investigated and prosecuted in a way which is efficient and fair and which meets the needs of modern society. It addresses such matters as the preservation of crime scenes, increased periods of detention in the case of arrestable offences, search warrant powers for An Garda Siochana, amendments to the Criminal Justice (Forensic Evidence ) Act, 1990, provision for fixed penalty procedure in respect of certain less public order offences and the admissibility of statements by witnesses, who subsequently refuse to testify or who retract their original statements."

The Minister is finalising a range of proposed additions to the Bill which, subject to Government approval, he intends to bring forward during its passage through the Oireachtas. These additions will ensure that the Bill fully reflects contemporary needs. Key proposed additions include: the creation of criminal offences in relation to organised crime; the strengthening of provisions on the imposition of the 10 year mandatory minimum sentence for drug trafficking; new offences of supplying drugs to prisoners; the creation of a Drug Offenders Register; provisions to deal with anti-social behaviour; provisions amending the Firearms Acts 1925-2000 and provisions amending the Explosives Act, 1875 concerning the updating of fines and penalties and provisions relating to fireworks.

In relation to firearms the Bill includes:

a requirement that all persons, wishing to obtain a certificate for a firearm, satisfy the Garda Siochana that they have safe and secure storage for the firearm; increased fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the Firearms Acts; the creation of mandatory minimum sentences, of between five and ten years, for certain firearms offences, including possession of a firearm in suspicious circumstances, possession of firearm with criminal intent, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle, and use or production of a firearm to resist arrest; the introduction of a new offence of modifying a firearm such as shortening the barrel of a shotgun, converting a deactivated or replica firearm into a live firearm, modifying a firearm to fully automatic and increasing the calibre of a firearm.
The Minister also intends to introduce a statutory basis for an amnesty during which firearms may be surrendered to the Garda Siochana before new penalties and minimum mandatory sentences are introduced. This will enable those in possession of firearms who are not in compliance with the legal requirements to regularise their position, and this will enable the Garda Siochana to concentrate on more serious offenders.

The Minister said: "The Criminal Justice Bill, when enacted, will greatly enhance the ability of An Garda Siochana to deal with serious crime, and I hope I will have the co-operation of all parties in the Oireachtas in ensuring the speedy enactment of the legislation."

The Minister noted that the figures are provisional and are therefore subject to validation and change. The final figures will form an integral part of the Garda Commissioner's Annual Report for the year.


13 October, 2005

Crime Statistics 3rd quarter 2005

jaycee

Is it my imagination (Always a possibility ) ..
Or is this a bit more detailed than we've seen before ..?

a requirement that all persons, wishing to obtain a certificate for a firearm, satisfy the Garda Siochana that they have safe and secure storage for the firearm; increased fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the Firearms Acts; the creation of mandatory minimum sentences, of between five and ten years, for certain firearms offences, including possession of a firearm in suspicious circumstances, possession of firearm with criminal intent, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle, and use or production of a firearm to resist arrest; the introduction of a new offence of modifying a firearm such as shortening the barrel of a shotgun, converting a deactivated or replica firearm into a live firearm, modifying a firearm to fully automatic and increasing the calibre of a firearm.

modifying a firearm to fully automatic and increasing the calibre of a firearm.

That sounds like semi-automatic / self loading firearms will be ok ..?

Still no word on a timeframe to see all the proposed changes though ..

Sparks

This is coming up for debate again tomorrow in the Dail at 1130; once again there should be a webcast for those with broadband and an interest

Meclor

Any update on what was said?

Sparks

Not yet Meclor, the transcripts should be up on the web later and I'll cut-n-paste then. I'd have watched it, but I'm a tad under the weather at the moment.

Riggser

jaycee wrote:

Just to get the ball rolling I would suggest either 9mm or .45 Mm as a max handgun calibre on the grounds of costs and choice
JayCee

The max at .45 maybe but definitely not 9mm. Most target pistol shooters use .40 at least.

Sparks

Most target pistol shooters use .40 at least.

*cough, cough*

I think the demographics in Ireland haven't been set out properly for pistol yet. Once this CJB is done and dusted, you'll see the Pony Club start moving towards air pistol as that's what everyone else in the world uses for tetrathlon, and the Pony Club are big in a way that most clubs don't seem to fully get, to be honest. I still think once we're established that air pistols and .22 pistols, in that order, will be the most numerous.

Sparks

Some of the transcripts are now up here.

Relevant to section 30:

Mr. Crawford:
Another aspect of this Bill that has caused much annoyance and anger is section 30, which deals with firearms. Firearms are held in the main by sports people, who use them to enjoy their sports. They feel very aggrieved that the issue of their control of firearms should be dealt with in the Criminal Justice Bill. Many small Bills pass through this House and there is no reason this matter could not be dealt with in its own right in a separate Bill, rather than by classifying as criminal the activities of sportsmen who hold guns legally and use them solely for sports. I have no problem with the matter section 30 deals with, namely, how guns are held and the need to ensure they do not get into the hands of subversives or anybody else, but the issue of controlling guns held by sports people should not be dealt with in this Bill. I ask the Minister to consider this point even at this late stage.

Gah. I don't understand why so much time has been wasted on that red herring And it was about the only direct mention to section 30 in the entire debate - the increase in penalties for firearms offences was brought up in relation to prosecuting criminal gangs, but that was about it. The ASBOs, the other major changes that the Bill contains are now taking centre stage, as we thought they would.

FLAG

In his address to the Joint Committee the Minister made the following statement with respect to the proposed firearms amendments’

JOINT COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE, EQUALITY, DEFENCE AND WOMEN’S RIGHTS
Wednesday, 7 September 2005

I also propose to insert a new part in the Bill to deal with a series of provisions relating to the firearms Acts 1925 to 2000. The new provisions will concern the certification for possession, use and carriage of firearms and ammunition; allow the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to deem certain firearms as restricted and allow for an increase in fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the firearms Acts; and the creation of mandatory minimum sentences for certain firearms offences, including some new offences concerning the modification of a firearm. I am thinking of sawn-off shotguns. The provisions will also introduce a right of appeal to the District Court from firearms decisions made by the Garda Síochána, a new power for the Commissioner to make guidelines or guidance notes for the uniform administration of the Act and a provision for the authorisation of rifle and pistol clubs and shooting ranges. It will also contain a provision allowing the Minister to make a scheme to provide for payment for certain surrendered firearms in limited circumstances. It will also make provision allowing for a period where firearms may be surrendered to members of the Garda Síochána.

We met with Senior Officials of the Department of Justice on 20th October for discussions on the upcoming changes to the firearms legislation, in broad terms what the minister quoted above is what is in the amendments, to clarify what restricted means, restricted firearms are those deemed to be licensed only by the Commissioner, realistically we will see a return of the decision making process to Garda HQ, inconsistent application of the present legislation is leading to too many issues and the amendments when they take effect will mean that a central "informed" location will make decisions on applications, note the qualifications to hold a license will not change. What will be deemed restricted is anyone’s guess, but note it does not mean "BAN", in addition I can confirm that here will be a specific section that will ensure that reloading is permitted, there will be no ambiguity in respect of the qualification to reload, it is there and as soon as the CJB is enacted then reloading will follow. Additionally there will be provision for the approval of ranges for rifles and pistols to a known standard, the standard will likely be that used in NI. What this will mean is that once ranges are approved then it will be a recognition of the club and members should find licensing of firearms somewhat less difficult. Overall the amendments will bring clarity to what is currently a confused situation. Showing that we have a sport and that individuals participate in it is very important regardless of disciplines this is what has left the door open for the pistols and higher caliber rifles to include reloading. So for all of you budding reloaders you know what to put on the Santa list.

Actual legislative changes should be published soon, as soon as they are we will post them.

Any queries can be directed to the FLAG e-mail address flagireland@eircom.net

Regards
Declan Keogh
FLAG Sub-committee

civdef

Good stuff, nice to hear some fairly definites information. Any guide on what the timeframes for this are looking like?

FLAG

Passage of the bill should pick up some momentum, the second stage was passed this week and it is now at committee stage, with December and Christmas fast approaching it is likely that it will come into force Q1 2006, not later than March from what we can gather.

Should have mentioned also that we managed to get the minister to agree to include the word ammunition into Section 17, which will make life easier for the importation of ammunition and dare I say components.

"6th December, 2004

Dear Mr. Keogh,

I am directed by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Mr. Michael McDowell T.D., to refer to your recent correspondence concerning amendments to the Firearms Acts, 1925 to 2000 contained in the Criminal Justice Bill, 2004.

The Minister has asked me to say that he is aware of the position regarding section 17 of the Firearms Act, 1925 as amended by section 21 of the Firearms Acts, 1964 concerning the requirement for an importation licence for ammunition. It is proposed that section 21 of the Firearms Act, 1964 will be amended to include ammunition in the Criminal Justice Bill, 2004.

Yours sincerely,



____________________
Private Secretary, "

Sparks

FLAG wrote:

We met with Senior Officials of the Department of Justice on 20th October

Er, who specifically is "we"?

for discussions on the upcoming changes to the firearms legislation, in broad terms what the minister quoted above is what is in the amendments,

In specific terms, what is in the amendments that isn't what was in the Minister's speech?

realistically we will see a return of the decision making process to Garda HQ

Er... just how exactly is this a "return" to Garda HQ, when the first actual Firearms Act ever signed into law in this country put the decision making process squarely in the hands of the Superintendents on the basis that the licencing decision should be made by someone who knows the licencee? (I'm not counting the six or seven months when the Firearms (Temporary Provisions) Act was in force as a "oh crap, we've just taken over the country, er, do something quick" measure; nor am I looking at the 1920 Act, since, well, Ireland didn't exist as a seperate state back then and neither did Garda HQ).

And this isn't a small point - this is a fundamental rewriting of the Firearms legislation in this country at a very basic level. The decision making process is being transferred from the people who know the applicants to some poor schmuck sitting in an office who's never met the applicant and won't ever have any contact with them. Now for driving licences, okay - drivers are tested, so you can be reasonably sure they know which pedals to push and what the red light means; but for firearms? Are you kidding me?

What's needed are guidelines and oversight for Superintendents so that they're not in the situation of having their personal behinds in the bacon slicer and so we have a third party to review their decisions if we feel they're unjust (that doesn't involve the expense of the high court). This ain't that.

the amendments when they take effect will mean that a central "informed" location will make decisions on applications

And if you have two or three guys, with fifty or sixty applications each to get through before day's end, is that going to be a better and more secure system?

What will be deemed restricted is anyone’s guess, but note it does not mean "BAN"

Yes, and owning pistols was not illegal for the past 32 years either. You just couldn't get a licence for one.

in addition I can confirm that here will be a specific section that will ensure that reloading is permitted

That is an excellent thing to report, thank you. Do you know if it will impact on the ongoing court case of a gentleman in Wicklow whose house was raided by gardai to recover his reloading equipment and who is currently charged with possession of unlicenced ammunition, namely empty shell casings not of the calibre for his firearms?

Additionally there will be provision for the approval of ranges for rifles and pistols to a known standard, the standard will likely be that used in NI.

Is that definite, or is that your best guess? What did the DoJ say on the matter of what standard would be applied? How much are clubs going to have to do to achieve this approval? Can it be taken away, and if so, for what kind of infractions? Could a club have its authorisation taken away for an accident caused by one of it's members, for example?

What this will mean is that once ranges are approved then it will be a recognition of the club and members should find licensing of firearms somewhat less difficult.

Don't get me wrong, this would be a major step forward; but it is dependant on the requirements of that approval. For example, the college clubs are not in a position to spend thousands of euros on environmental impact assessments should these be made a part of the requirements - it would result in UCD and DURC shutting down, thus losing not only the largest air rifle range in the Republic, but also two of the largest potential sources of shooters in the Republic.

Actual legislative changes should be published soon, as soon as they are we will post them.

Looking forward to them.

Any queries can be directed to the FLAG e-mail address

Why not answer them here, where everyone can see them? As every teacher will tell you, you answer questions to the whole class, because most people who don't know won't say so in public, so if one person asks in public, you take the questions as an aid in getting that information out there and you answer them in public...

FLAG

Oh no! not positive eddy again.

Mark you really know how to rub someone up the wrong way, what I posted is a brief to bring people up to date in a concise manner. There are a lot of people who trust what I do out there and looking at the shape of what is coming maybe their trust was well founded.

I included the FLAG e-mail address because I do not have time to spend endless hours on the boards unlike yourself and posting the e-mail would allow for direct queries to be answered.

Would you ever grow up and step back for one minute, if this is the response I get when I try to put useful information on the board then I will stop posting.

Pehaps there are some out there who really want to know what is going on and by your attitude you certainly will get me to sign off for good.:mad:

civdef

In all fairness Sparks, given this is a decent bit of info, is it really necessary to dissect it all and get back into another bloody slagging match?

FLAG

Thanks Civdef, appreciated. What we are trying to do is just go forward. Believe me I could write a book on the past ten years and progress has been made and will continue to be made.

Sparks

Hang on here a moment. The questions I asked were:

• Who went to see the DoJ?
• What did Declan learn in the meeting which he hinted at but didn't say?
• Why is FLAG (as a whole, not just Declan) not concerned at a massive and fundamental rewriting of the Firearms Acts being pushed through like this?
• Will the reloading clarification cancel a pretty nasty lawsuit which has wide-ranging consequences for us all?
• What do the clubs have to do to get approval under the CJB?
• Will you post any additional information here, please?

Nothing in that list warranted either a personal attack like we just saw, nor was any of it in any way unreasonable. Those are the questions that are going to come up in the next few weeks; why not deal with them now? Hell the second-last one could spell the end of two of the largest clubs in the country, and probably a half-dozen of the smaller ones. This stuff isn't trivial. Look, I know Declan doesn't like me. Oh well. I'll cry in my beer next time I'm in the pub. But if he uses that dislike to not answer genuine and serious questions, he needs to resign now from representing any group's best interests because guess what, there will always be people in that group that he doesn't like the look of. I'm breaking no news when I say that I'm not alone nor am I an extremist with regard to my working relationship with Declan. At least I'm willing to work with him - but it seems not to be a mutual undertaking. So are we to expect that FLAG under Declan's control will represent the interests of us all? Or just Declan's mates?

Come on Declan, prove me wrong. Answer the questions.

On a postscript; Declan, enough with the personal insults please. There was a lot of leeway in the "How to disrupt" thread because it was important to get that stuff cleared out of the way; I don't see any reason for there to be leeway with personal insults anywhere else. That's not a threat in any way, to be clear; I'm just saying you're letting the side down by not answering questions (which is pretty much your job to be honest - you represent our interests to the DoJ, you have a responsibility to answer reasonable questions as a result, or else you have no right to claim to speak in our name) and instead throwing out personal insults every time I or anyone else asks a question which you have an implicit duty to answer.

FLAG

I'm sorry I posted the update, you can wait for the legislation to be enacted and have your questions answered then.

It is not possible to be finite at this point in the process, legislation needs regulation and the devil is in the detail.

Unfortunately Mark individuals who view the boards can keep guessing until the legislation and regulation is published because I have no more intention of adding further to the boards......all thanks to you.

I will of course be reporting to the SSAI, but since you do not recognise them you will hardly listen to what they or their affiliated assocaiations have to say on the matter.

Sparks

Declan, don't even try to blame me for your unwillingness to do the job you appropriated for yourself. Your statements and my questions are there in black and white for all to read. At no point have I been unreasonable or intolerant or abusive; I just asked questions. The day that our own administrators view that as an attack and, instead of doing their jobs and answering to their own members, turn on those members instead; that's the day that everyone gets to see why there's no real organised anti-gun lobby in this country. It's because of people who behave as you have done here that no such lobby is needed. The government has treated the shooting community as mushrooms for decades; now, it seems, you want to do the same.

Shame on you!

Sparks

The rest of the transcripts of Wednesday's debate is now up on the web at the afore-mentioned link, by the way. The debate in the Dail is now, in fact, over; the Bill has been referred officially to the Select Comittee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights, where the amendments will be officially drafted and then sent back to the Dail for approval. There won't be any further debate at that point, a point commented on on Wednesday:

Mr. Stanton:
I was expressing my concern that this Bill is a work in progress and we have seen approximately half of the provisions it will eventually enact. We are told that there will be further additions to the Bill during its passage through the House. It is important and desirable that the full provisions of a Bill that will have far-reaching effects on many people and give more power to the Garda Síochána are properly thought out and presented. These should not be brought in later on Committee or worse, Report Stage, as seems to happen more and more frequently.

It is fine for Deputies on all sides to make suggestions which the Minister takes on board and brings forward on Committee Stage. What seems to happen, however, is that a half-formulated Bill is presented and important provisions are brought forward on later Stages. That denies Members the possibility of debating those measures. This procedure is dangerous in a republic, which means “a thing of the people”. I urge the Minister to introduce a Bill as a finished product, not a work in progress, unless there is some pressing reason not to do so.

The remainder of the debate, however, did not touch on the section 30 amendments until the closing argument by Sean Power, Minister of State for Health and Children, at which some new information was passed on:

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. S. Power):
... Further amendments to the Firearms Acts will address matters arising from recent court judgments on the process of certification for the possession, use and carriage of firearms and ammunition, and the penalties for firearms offences. ...

On the proposals for a comprehensive reform of the law concerning firearms, section 30 of the Bill provides for the secure custody of firearms and requires all applicants for firearms certificates to satisfy the Garda superintendent to whom the application is made that they have provided secure accommodation for the firearms. A number of Deputies raised concerns about making provision for this in the Bill. They also expressed the view that a wider and more comprehensive range of amendments to the Firearms Acts are required which should be included in a more comprehensive firearms Bill. The Minister is proposing a wider range of amendments to the Firearms Acts which will form a separate and distinct part of the Bill and which will encompass many of the issues raised by Deputies in the course of this debate.

Before briefly outlining the proposals which it is intended to bring forward on Committee Stage, I thank the many sporting organisations involved in shooting, particularly the National Association of Regional Game Councils and the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland. They have engaged constructively with the Department in the development of a number of these new proposals. Over the years, members of all these shooting organisations have demonstrated an extremely responsible approach to their sport. Their excellent safety record in the handling and use of firearms bears testimony to this fact.

Government amendments on Committee Stage will insert a new Part in the Bill to deal with a series of provisions amending the Firearms Acts 1925-2000. The proposed amendments also involve moving the present section 30 to this new Part. The new provisions will allow the Minister to deem certain firearms as restricted by reference to specific criteria, including the calibre, action type and muzzle energy of the firearm. Any person wishing to obtain a certificate for a restricted weapon must in future apply to the Garda Commissioner.

The new provisions will also increase fines and penalties relating to offences generally under the Firearms Acts as well as creating mandatory minimum sentences of between five and ten years for certain firearms offences. These offences include possession of a firearm in suspicious circumstances, possession of a firearm with criminal intent, possession of a firearm with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property, possession of a firearm while hijacking a vehicle, and use or production of a firearm to resist arrest. In addition, the new provisions introduce a new offence of modifying a firearm, such as shortening the barrel of a shotgun, converting a de-activated or replica firearm into a live firearm, modifying a firearm to fully automatic and increasing the calibre of a firearm.

The new provisions provide for decisions on firearms certificates to be issued within a minimum statutory period, introduce a statutory right of appeal to the District Court of decisions on certificates, introduce a new type of certificate which will allow young persons to be trained in the use of firearms for sporting purposes, introduce a new power for the Garda Commissioner to make guidelines or guidance notes for the uniform administration of the Act, and provide for the authorisation of rifle and pistol clubs and shooting ranges.

The Minister intends to introduce a statutory basis for an amnesty during which firearms may be surrendered to the Garda Síochána before new penalties and minimum mandatory sentences are introduced. This will enable those in possession of firearms who are not in compliance with the legal requirements to regularise their position and thus enable the Garda Síochána to concentrate on more serious offenders.

So, Section 30 moved to a new Part of the Bill and firearms specified by action, muzzle energy, or calibre can be restricted and you would have to apply to the Commissioner for a licence for them. The Supreme Court's ruling that the Superintendent is the sole licencing authority is to be thrown out, along with the ruling that the Commissioner couldn't demand gun safes, steel doors and barred windows before issuing a firearms cert.; and unless Minister Power misspoke, which is possible, there seems to be an authorisation procedure for both clubs and ranges, which should prove interesting reading. It should also be interesting to see what the right of appeal is like in the case where you're applying for a licence for a restricted firearm to the Garda Commissioner.

Soon as they publish the amendments, they'll be posted here (and everywhere else, I shouldn't wonder, this being the biggest thing in Irish target shooting since Frank Brophy's case brought pistols back in last year). Cross your fingers, folks...

civdef

To me it seems like there's an awful lot of positive stuff in these amendments at this stage, of course, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, or in this case the final act as signed into law by the president.

The current inconsistencies around the country caused by differing attitudes of various superintendents will not be missed for example. If there are new requirements, at least they will be uniform and clear, so that people can then comply with them and be granted a licence, rather than the current system where the goalposts move with alarming regularity, seemingly on the whim of an individual.

The fact that theyre centralised means they are more likely to be reasonable too, I reckon, an unworkable security requirement affecting the whole country will face a lot more opposition than one imposed in a single garda district in the middle of nowhere.

The bit about some applications being approved by the comissioner centrally is no huge step I reckon, certs for pistols and fullbore rifles have always gone to Garda GQ for approval, regardless of who formally signed them. I don't think that my local super "knows" me any better than the comissioner would - I have never met either of them. The Garda at the counter who fills out the application form will still be the one who makes the recommendation as to whether the cert should be granted or not.

Ranges are already being made go through a defacto approval process, this only regularises the position. I don't think clubs being asked to conform to sensible safety standards is any bad thing, and the indications are the standards will be the same as apply in other jurisdictions.

Question for the people who have been in contact with the Dept, what vibes are ye getting as to what will be restricted?

What do people think at this stage about these amendments genrally as they are now beginning to take shape?

Rovi

civdef wrote:

What do people think at this stage about these amendments genrally as they are now beginning to take shape?

As you say, lots of positive stuff in there, but it's hard to be 100% enthusiastic without seeing the legislation in its entirety. Even then, it'll take time to see how it's implemented.

For example, I'm wondering about this bit-

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Mr. S. Power) wrote:

In addition, the new provisions introduce a new offence of modifying a firearm, such as shortening the barrel of a shotgun, converting a de-activated or replica firearm into a live firearm, modifying a firearm to fully automatic and increasing the calibre of a firearm.

This is fine on the face of it, and I can see the intention, but I can see legitimate reasons for someone wanting to do all/most of those things. Not sure about the 'modifying a firearm to fully automatic' bit, but you never know
Anyhow, I'd hope that there'd be some procedure for doing these things legally, and some way of de-activating a 'live' firearm and keeping it without having to do the whole 'Firearms Certificate' mating ritual would be nice too.

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