Target Pistols return to Ireland

Sparks

Okay, so we've been rather low-key about this till today, waiting for it all to finalise, but this morning at 1130, Frank Brophy, a target shooter from Wexford, picked up his licence for a Toz-35 olympic target shooting pistol.

This is the first such licence granted in over 30 years in the Republic (though they've always been legal in the North) and it means that for the first time in 32 years we can train a team for the Olympics, hold all-ireland national championships in pistol shooting and so on.

The Toz-35, for those who don't know, is a Russian-made single-shot .22 calibre pistol, specifically designed to compete in the Olympic 50m Free Pistol event. It's about 44cm long, 16cm tall and 12cm wide, and weighs about 1.2 kilos. It's been enormously successful since its release - you walk along the firing line at this year's Olympic Games in Athens and up to half of the firing line will be using Toz-35s of one flavour or another. At the recent Athens World Cup, 26 out of 62 competitors used the Toz for 50m Free Pistol, and the only reason that there wasn't more is that the Toz isn't manufactured any more and they're becoming difficult to get. Here's what they look like:



The licence was initially refused, as per usual, but Frank appealed the decision (which meant going straight to the High Court, as there's no other appeals process for licencing, since your local superintendent is the sole authority for licencing according to the Firearms Acts).

The refusal was quashed, with the consent of both parties, and the Superintendent has now issued Frank his licence.

Hopefully, air pistol can't be far behind, and this will mean a healthy and actively competing olympic pistol community by this time next year, and who knows? Maybe we'll see an Irish target shooter on the firing line for a pistol event in the Olympics in Bejing!

More details are up on www.targetshootingireland.org for those interested...

fiacha

that's good news. it will be interesting to see how the next few people get on with their applications.

it always seemed strange that legitimate target shooters could not have a pistol, but just about anyone can get a letter off a firearms officer and buy a replica blank firing pistol. a mate of mine has bought a Beretta 92fs replica that fires 10mm blanks. still capable of doing someone a lot of damage at close range, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and the real thing.

mcguiver

Great to hear this.... went out shooting last week and it was main topic of conversation.

Anyone know of any range that is suitable for pistols ???

Sparks

Only up north mcguiver. On a related note, it now appears that the policy of not issuing licences based on calibre or type of firearm has been rescinded, which means that all the olympic stuff is back - air pistol, standard pistol, free pistol, everything.

mcguiver

Thats interesting....

I think I'll wait a while and see how that goes, don't want to fall out with my local firearms officer.

Sparks

Well, he'll just evaluate the application as it stands. If you're going for one of the ISSF pistols, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Obviously if you're going for one of the higher-power sidearm thingys, it's a different barrel of monkeys alltogether.

But, the rumours are saying that the amendments for the firearms acts that are in the pipeline are going to crack down again before christmas.

Esel

fiacha wrote:

that's good news. it will be interesting to see how the next few people get on with their applications.

it always seemed strange that legitimate target shooters could not have a pistol, but just about anyone can get a letter off a firearms officer and buy a replica blank firing pistol. a mate of mine has bought a Beretta 92fs replica that fires 10mm blanks. still capable of doing someone a lot of damage at close range, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and the real thing.

Damage their hearing, maybe?

Sparks

esel wrote:

Damage their hearing, maybe?

No, both will damage your hearing equally. And if you point either at someone, you're risking their lives (see Brandon Lee's tragic end for an example).

Renegade_Archer

Sparks wrote:

Well, he'll just evaluate the application as it stands. If you're going for one of the ISSF pistols, you shouldn't have much of a problem. Obviously if you're going for one of the higher-power sidearm thingys, it's a different barrel of monkeys alltogether.

But, the rumours are saying that the amendments for the firearms acts that are in the pipeline are going to crack down again before christmas.

So does that mean all the shiny pistols we buy will get confiscated, or those who get a license before christmas can keep their guns?

mcguiver

I've a feeling that instead of approaching the whole pistol ownership thing nice and quietly, i.e establishing ownership of target pistols, building up a good reputation etc. showing we can handle these firearms safely etc. people are gonna rush out to buy everything and anything... and create a lot of bad publicity..... We all know the press are gonna jump on this one as soon as someone gets a flashy gun.

Renegade_Archer

Bit of background: My name is Ewan, Ive taken up 10m olympic air pistol shooting over here in Germany, will be returning to Ireland in September. Would like to buy a sensible target air pistols like the IZH-46M, Im not after a Desert Eagle or something :P

mcguiver

Unfortunately from talking to a few shooters since the 1st pistol licence went through, most of them are looking at flashy sidearms, quick draw holsters, extended mags....... a bit o.t.t. ... much as I would love one myself, I've a feeling the extreemists will scare the authorities.

Sparks

That's the worrying bit mcguiver. I'm just waiting for the first IPSC club to be set up and the first "we have a right to own these" type of statement to be made
I mean, right now it's time for quiet restraint, not yelling and shouting.

Ewan, yes, it is a risk - pistols were effectively confiscated in 1972 without compensation. Of course, you could buy one and store it in Northern Ireland if it looks like the law is going to change on us badly, and either shoot it there or sell it off from there. Which is akward, but then again - if there are pistols being used sensibly here, it makes a better case for not banning them. And the DoJ have hinted in the past that they'll allow target pistols, it's the sidearms that they want gone.

mcguiver

Back before the ban, was there regulations regarding carrying/storing of pistols??

Sparks

Yes mcguiver, the same ones as exist now - the ban wasn't so much a ban as a policy not to licence certain types and calibres of firearms, as opposed to a change in legislation.

civdef

One thing shooters in Ireland need to be careful of is splitting the lobby, e.g. target shooters disowning hunting or olympic target shooters hanging "less pure" disciplines out to dry. This happened several times in the UK in the past, many target shooters supported the ban on "sidearms", hoping to save the ISSF disciplines, resulting in the whole lot getting banned.

The bottom line is a gun is a gun. If you're not fit to have a 9mm, then you probably shouldnt have a .177 airgun either. We need to concentrate on keeping any type of firearm out of the hands of the nutjobs, not on securing our own interests at the expense of others.

I'm in favour of some toughening up in our legislation by the way, there are plenty of idiots out there with shotguns held on certificates, a quick look at some country road signs attests to this. At the same time, many of the beaurocratic nightmares in the current system need improving, examples of this are; the need for a full rifle cert for each rifle, compared to second/subsequent certs for shotguns; the crazy system of renewing each cert annually on July 31st - the UK system of a 5 year cert woud be far more favourable. Firearms licencing could probably be conducted more efficiently if the administration parts of it were civilianised.

Sparks

One thing shooters in Ireland need to be careful of is splitting the lobby

Hmmm. The other thing shooters need to be careful of is demanding everything at once. We'd have had ISSF target pistols over a decade ago if that hadn't been done at the time - so to be honest, I personally feel that target shooters have already been done over by other shooters. And if we have to reclaim things in a piecemeal fashion, it's remarkable how fast the loudest proponents of unity in the shooting community rapidly become the loudest proponents of promoting their own particular discipline ahead of the others.

And while I've no problem seeing target pistols come back, I'm very wary of the larger service pistols, unless we see some serious funding of the Gardai for training in firearms matters. Not just from the simple safety point of view, but also from the image point of view. At the moment in this country, anyone who gets described as a shooter is thought of by the public in one of five ways : terrorist, armed criminal, army/ERU, hunter or nutter. I've been breaking my back trying to add a sixth category, that of olympic sportsman (yes, I know there are non-olympic disciplines, but the key here is simplicity of message and putting your best foot forward so I focus on the olympic side of things). But it's a long way from being done. If the IPSC were to start off in Ireland, you can bet we could kiss any positive image we've gained in the past few years goodbye - we'd have every pundit in the media scrambling to write the most vitriolic condemnation possible, and the TV coverage would scare the bejaysus out of half the country.

I mean, it's bad enough the Barr Tribunal is recommending that doctors be obliged to break doctor-patient confidentiality if the patient owns a firearm and they think he/she may be suffering from depression or some other mental health problem, I don't particularly need to see the whole country screaming to ban guns because they got to watch some yahoo in military fatigues running around a combat pistol range and shooting at human silhouettes...

civdef

Agree on the image thing, was at the range yesterday, saw a fella there in all over woodland camoflauge, shooting his 243, looked like a right eejit. That'll get you asked to leave most ranges in the Uk I've shot at.

I don't shoot ISSF disciplines myself any more, but would like to shoot bullseye type pistol competitions, I wouldn't like to see a situation where only the ISSF singe shot pistol is permitted, as this has a very narrow appeal.

It's worth noting that Northern Ireland has a wide range of pistol disciplines available, and an active shooting pistol community (stop sniggering at the back), with very little hassle - shooting 9mm, 357 etc on ranges up there is no big deal. Maybe this is one are the vaunted cross-border cooperation can be of benefit to us shooters, ironic considering the mess up there fecked us up in 1972.

OFDM

Sparks wrote:

The refusal was quashed, with the consent of both parties, and the Superintendent has now issued Frank his licence.

Does this set a legal precedent?

Sparks

I don't shoot ISSF disciplines myself any more, but would like to shoot bullseye type pistol competitions, I wouldn't like to see a situation where only the ISSF singe shot pistol is permitted, as this has a very narrow appeal.

There is more than one pistol event within ISSF, don't forget. The pistol at the start of this thread was for the 50m Free Pistol event (taking place in Athens tomorrow morning at 0800 our time for qualifications, 1100 for the final), but there are also disciplines like 25m standard pistol (shot with .22 pistols with a five-round magazine, taking place in Athens on Wednesday), 25m rapid-fire pistol (currently using a slightly different pistol with a five-round magazine, but switching to the standard 25m pistol from 2005, and taking place in Athens on Saturday), and of course the air pistol events (which took place over the last two days in Athens).

But those are just the Olympic ISSF events - there are other, non-Olympic ISSF events that go to the World Championships level, including those which use centerfire pistols. So if ISSF pistols were allowed, you could compete in the bullseye-style competitions.

It's worth noting that Northern Ireland has a wide range of pistol disciplines available, and an active shooting pistol community (stop sniggering at the back), with very little hassle - shooting 9mm, 357 etc on ranges up there is no big deal.

Well. It does depend on the range. But they do have a very healthy ISSF pistol community up there. The 9mm and .357 shooters, I wouldn't have much contact with. But I do know that shooters from down south take part in Northern competitions all the time - I only got back from the Comber Open myself last monday, and I'm off to the East Antrim Shooting Festival this year, all going well, where I'm hoping to shoot air pistol and standard pistol if the logistics allows for it.



(That's me shooting air pistol on the East Antrim range a few years ago).

Sparks

OFDM wrote:

Does this set a legal precedent?

I'm not entirely certain, since the quashing was done with the consent of both parties. I'd like to say yes, since that would mean that the high court had ruled that the policy of restricting firearms licencing by calibre or type was unlawful - but I can't say that for definite. However, it doesn't matter much in the final analysis because the policy has been withdrawn by the Gardai (though not by the DoJ which means you can't get an import licence for a pistol at the moment since the DoJ grant those), and because it's likely to find it's way into the Firearms Acts if the rumours I've been hearing are correct.

mcguiver

Yep a lot of ranges really have to work on the whole image.
I'd wear camo when in the field, on the rare occasions I'd go hunting......

I dont feel the need to wear them on the range.... wrong image for the public to see!!

Evil_Bilbo

I used to hang around with Frank Brophy's son. I remember him campaigning to get pistol licences back in Ireland (many years ago). He must be delighted to finally get it.

On another note, he took me clay pigeon shooting once (with some kind of pump action shotgun). It was my second time EVER shooting a gun. I didnt miss a single clay pigeon. He did. He never took me again!

civdef

Didn't Nicholas Flood's court case to get his .308 licence a week or so earlier set the precedent, resulting in Frank Brophy's challenge going uncontested?

The DoJ is allowing import of 308s and 303s etc at the moment, several have come in already and more are on the way over. I don't see how import licences for pistols could be treated differently.

Sparks

No civ, Nick's case was in effect settled out of court and didn't set a precedent. Frank's case going uncontested was probably more to do with other factors than with Nick's case.

On the import licences, several gun dealers have been telling me that import licences for pistols aren't being granted at the moment. The DoJ just works with a lot more red tape and so forth than most places. Plus, there'll be little hurry to start granting licences since there are amendments on the way for the firearms act.

civdef

Given the usual delays inherent in the process, I'm not surprised no pistol import licences have been processed yet, it being only a couple of weeks since the change in Garda policy came around. Since you can apply for a firearms certificate when just in possession of a serial number for the firearm in question, you can get a licence before the gun enters the country. The DoJ should have very little room for maneuvre to refuse import for an already licenced firearm, particularly if a dealer rather than in individual was requesting the import.
One problem I've always found in my dealings with the dept regarding firearms is their stubborness is only matched by their ignorance when it comes to the technical details, hence the long saga of refusing import of .222 rifles because they thought it was a military calibre. This was only reverse a few months ago, after many years of their being presented with evidence to the contrary.

Sparks

There are two policies though Civ, one for the Gardai who issue the licences and one for the DoJ who issue the importation orders. From what I've been hearing, it's not surprising that the two policies are out of sync.

And I'm not sure it's ignorance so much as a lack of training - I've not yet met anyone in there who actively and malignly tried to avoid learning about firearms, but they get so much work dumped on them and the consequences of a mistake are so serious, that they always take the safe route for themselves. Which, while fustrating, is understandable.

For example, the M-16 is chambered for .223 Remington, and is not something the DoJ want to see legally ownable in Ireland over the IRA/UDF problem. (Yes, I know they get their firearms elsewhere, but the DoJ still has to ban them from having the legal option). AR-15s, however, are superficially identical to M-16s and are available in .222 as well as .223 (and I think in .22 as well, though don't quote me on that). So the civil servant who has little to no training in firearms per se, just plays it as safe as he can and bars both .223 and .222 rounds. It's not necessarily malicious, even if it is highly fustrating and inconsistent.

civdef

The jist of the legislation covering occasional import licences is that if you can get a firearms certificate for it, you can import it.

Section 17 (4) FIREARMS ACT, 1925

4) An occasional licence to import into Saorstát Eireann a firearm, with or without ammunition therefor, may, on application in the prescribed manner be granted by the Minister to any person who holds or could be granted a firearm certificate for the firearm and ammunition (if any) in respect of which the occasional licence is sought or is a registered firearms dealer and every such occasional licence shall operate and be expressed to authorise the importation into Saorstát Eireann of the firearm and the quantity of ammunition (if any) specified in such licence through the port, by the, person, within the time (not being more than one month), and subject to the conditions named in such licence.

Sparks

The problem is that it says "may be granted" - like most of the law in Ireland relating to firearms, it's all essentially on the sufferance of the person designated by the legislation as having the power to make the decision. It's not quite Kafka yet, mind - if there wasn't a review of the legislation in the works (for the past four years!) and there wasn't a series of amendments due to show up before christmas, I think that the DoJ and Gardai policies would get realigned much faster than is currently the case.

civdef

Talking to people in the trade, it seems the DoJ has been flooded with appplications for import licences for pistols, and have asked for a couple of weeks to clear the backlog.
Dunno if this is an excuse for stalling...

Sparks

Dunno either civ, but not only is it plausible, it was to be expected. The question now is what the 2004 Criminal Justice Bill adds to its miscellaneous section amending the Firearms Acts - because that could see the end or the rebirth of target pistol shooting in Ireland. It'd be highly ironic if less than four months after the end of the Olympic Games the Department of Justice were to ban five olympic events from Irish athletes again!

That's why the sticky in the forum on this topic is there - the more POLITE and reasonable responses they get asking for target pistol shooting to stay, the less likely it is to be banned.

(Unfortunately, the more responses they get from gun fetishists - and there are some out there - the more likely it is that they'll kneejerk and we'll see 1972 all over again, but in law this time rather than in licensing policy).

civdef

I reckon the large amount of interest is a good thing, as long as the gob****es are kept at bay.

I understand in 1972 there were around 300 licenced pistol shooters, small number like that make for an easy target. Organisations like the NARC have a lot of political lobby power because of their membership numbers.


By the way, do you know if the people who had their firearms illegally retained in 1972 have sought or received damages?

Sparks

They've never received damages civ, because the firearms technically still belong to them and so the state technically never took away their property. I'm sure someone will at some point sue on the grounds of being denied the use of their property, but I wouldn't be holding my breath on them winning - and I'm not sure it'd be in the best interests of target shooters today to be honest.

And the 300 licenced shooters figure seems desperately small. Hell, the Irish Pony Club would have more air pistols than than in a week if they got the green light.

fiacha

civdef wrote:

By the way, do you know if the people who had their firearms illegally retained in 1972 have sought or received damages?

I think the chap who writes about rifle shooting in Irish Shoters Digest (Cal Ward??) was trying to get reunited with his air pistol. stopped buying the mag, so I don't the outcome.

Sparks

Cal Ward and air pistol? That would surprise me greatly fiacha, he seems to be all about praising those who shoot at rabbits from 700 yards away. Something as sane as air pistol probably wouldn't interest him.

But then, there's little love lost between me and Ward so I may be wrong - I just don't have the motivation to go check. Somehow I doubt that he'd have done much good though.

Sparks

Incidentally, I was speaking to the Department today. We'd had a question submitted to the NTSA asking if you could buy a pistol in N.Ireland, have it put on your FAC there, get a licence for it from the Gardai and then cross the border with it without needing an importation order.

The offical word is that you can't - this would be illegal and they'd prosecute.
So in case anyone out there was thinking they could, you now know better!

Irishglockfan

Whats the story then with the EU firearms passport??
It is supposed to do away with all this import/export liscenses.
From what I understand if I have the gun added to my firearms passport and am liscensed in my home country.I can collect in person from the dealer in Europe,or they will ship it to me with a certified copy of the passport.

I have tried to get clarity on this;required are 2 passport pics,the gun serial nos,and most odd when you are going and returning.?The whole idea would be that you can head off to the continent when you fancy.Takes about a month to issue. Yet the gardai still claim you need the DOJ import/export cert.?
Doubling up on paperwork?DOJ /gardai out of sync not knowing what the EU directive is,or just an Irish govt solution to pesky shooters?

entropy

this firearms euro pass thing is a load of rubbish, the brits wont recognise it, last time i was there for dtl shoot they wouldnt accept it and looked for a visitors permit, funny enough i had a northern ireland licence and argued with them that should be enough for them. when they started to act the mick over it i told them thet the irish governtment would love to know that the british governtment wouldnt accept a northern ireland licence as they were claiming it was an irish licence. that shut him up fairly quick and they kicked us through fairly quick. dont know about importing guns but this thing looks like another piece of euro trash.

Sparks

The Europass doesn't get accepted in the UK, as entropy says. It was supposed to be an EU-wide firearms visitors permit sort of thing, but it would appear that it was never fully implemented. Still have one myself, but I've never had the chance to actually use it in anger (so to speak).

Irishglockfan

Entrophy,
It sounds like you just ran into a thick bollix in a uniform who wanted to give you a very hard time.From what I have on this thing it works effectively on the continent.wonder has it possibly got somthing to do with the UK and IRL not signing up to Shengen[sic].Or is it just another hassle the shooters DOJ thing?

Sparks

Glock, I suspect it's more to do with the UK's euro-sceptical attitude. And I've yet to see proof that the DoJ is actually maliciously out to get shooters - all I've ever seen from them suggests a lack of knowlege of firearms and a lack of willingness to have their names on the paper trail leading from a Dunblane/Hungerford/Abbylara incident: and believe me, if you were in their place, with their knowlege, you would act in the same manner, as would I. Namecalling isn't doing any good for anyone, and merely gets people pissed off and defensive - and therefore does a great deal of harm.

Pull!theother1

entropy wrote:

this firearms euro pass thing is a load of rubbish, the brits wont recognise it, last time i was there for dtl shoot they wouldnt accept it and looked for a visitors permit, funny enough i had a northern ireland licence and argued with them that should be enough for them. when they started to act the mick over it i told them thet the irish governtment would love to know that the british governtment wouldnt accept a northern ireland licence as they were claiming it was an irish licence. that shut him up fairly quick and they kicked us through fairly quick. dont know about importing guns but this thing looks like another piece of euro trash.

I may be wrong but the Euro Pass was to do away with a removal order as prior to that even though you were in posession of a UK permit you still needed a removal order from the Gardai to take the gun out of the country.
The Euro pass permits cross border travel but only when the destination countries requirement for certification has been met. Total value? Zero.

The N.I. certificate is the only one to have as it is by law recognised by the constabulary in England, Scotland and Wales (even if a reminder is sometimes necessary). An English, Scottish or Welsh permit is not however acceptable in N.I. and a visitors permit is needed.

Irishglockfan

Funny thing that EU passport it is accepted anywhere in the EU as your right to posses,use,import,export and purchase once it is on the passport the described guns therein.Apart from the British isles[Yes,we know ireland is seperate etc,etc].The contient has and had much stricter import/export laws than ireland ever had.Yet it is now as easy as anything to move your firearms around europe.Apart from here that is.I think it comes down to the"selective EU " mentality our govts display on matters they find awkward,annoying or dont or want to comprehend.

gouda

Setting the scene.

The Government now and in the past have no interest in shooting sports, look at the amount of money collected each year in licence fees and consider how much is re invested in facilities for shooters. None.
Firearms Acts only affect legitimate shooters, criminal have no regard for the law ergo they are not bothered by how severe the laws are as they do not comply anyway.
To the best of my knowledge, no other sport contributes so much financially to the Government for zero return.
Shooters are probably the only group in Ireland who do NOT have a right to their sport.
Ramblers seem to have a right to go where they like while contributing nothing (other than litter) to the country but want further access to private lands which would have the knock on effect of reducing land available for shooting. Yes, that would also include land available for ranges as we could not be allowed disturb the peace of the countryside with noisy gunfire!
If shooting is a minority sport, how come there are approx. 230,000 licensed firearms in this country? I doubt if there are 230,000 canoeists or track athletes in this country yet they receive TV coverage and Government funding, without contributing a licence fee.
The Gardai do not approach the companies who run competitions for cars to ask them not to publish the names or addresses of people who win flash cars in competition in case they might be stolen. The NARGC has been approached to ask clubs not to publish the names and addresses of club competition winners in local media as it could identify the houses which have guns, thereby increasing the risk of the house being burgled. Funny, I thought the Gardai were supposed to protect us from crime not the NARGC.
On the face of it this seems sensible, nobody wants their house burgled .However, it further reduces clubs ability to promote their sport at local level. Imagine asking the GAA not to publish pictures or names and addresses of victorious teams. Again rather than the Gardai protecting us, they want us to keep our heads down and pretend we don’t exist. All clubs should be causing uproar over this.
The NRPAI and affiliated bodies (including NTSA,NSA,NASRC etc) should learn from the NARGC, a much younger organisation than the NRPAI but with a lot more credibility. Why? Because they organised on a REGIONAL/COUNTY basis, included all shooting disciplines (though mainly shotgunners, not exclusively so). They do NOT discriminate between different disciplines. Pity the NRPAI didn’t recognise that there were a lot of shooters outside Dublin and Wicklow/Wexford and beyond the walls of the Universities. Perhaps things are changing, there is now Wilkinstown and Fermoy and MRC. Isn’t it strange that with only 10% of shooters being members of the NARGC they can have a Compensation Fund, permanent offices a full time CEO and a relatively happy and peaceful ship? Why don’t the NRPAI chase the other 90% and see what they can achieve? At least they should look at setting up County bodies to help promote the sport. I know quite a lot of people who do not realise that the NRPAI exist. Wonderful job of PR, keep it up and we won’t need the Government to prevent us from having our sport, we can obliterate it ourselves. It’s funny when I speak to people about joining the NRPAI, they seem to think that the NRPAI has nothing to offer them. I find it difficult to contradict them, as there are no ranges nearby, or competitions nearby. Also as they would mainly be rabbit hunters, having to use subsonic ammunition on ranges does not appeal to them, particularly as they are aware that subsonic .22 ammo is far more likely to ricochet than high velocity. The argument about subsonic being more accurate does not hold water as they would like to be able to compete with what they would use normally and improve their skills with this. Sounds reasonable as I cannot see target shooters changing to high velocity ammo when they need to be proficient with subs for their chosen discipline, rabbit shooters will not want to change to subs when they mainly use high velocity. Perhaps this could be looked at? I know ISSF disciplines use subs but perhaps sports shooters could have their own competitions with high velocity ammo. This would be seen as being inclusive rather than exclusive and perhaps some of these shooters would take up ISSF disciplines as well, who knows? I believe it is because existing rules in clubs prohibit high velocity .22 ammo that it has done more towards dividing shooters rather than uniting them and this continued rift is furthering the view of an “us and them” mentality with regard to sports shooters and target shooters. We all shoot and enjoy our sport, why can we not enjoy it together? In the UK Practical Shotgun, Practical Rifle, Gallery Rifle,.22 Target, .22 Sporting (High Velocity) Muzzle Loaders (pistol and rifle) Archery, Crossbow, Air Pistol, Air Rifle can all be enjoyed in the same venue without any difficulty and I understand there has been some crossover from one discipline to another as people can see what the other sports are like and can then try them out. I can see no reason why we cannot do the same here; in fact it would ease the financial burden on clubs as building/insurance costs would be spread over a larger number of members. It will never happen so long as this “us and them” attitude continues. Times are changing and the only way to protect the sport long term is to adopt a radical new approach. This is not to say that all which has happened previously was wrong but we are in an age when a fresh approach from the ground up is possibly the only way to ensure our sport is there for future generations to enjoy.
With land for ranges hard to come by, combining with other clubs to develop a multi use facility makes sense, it is only one planning application, one venue for public liability insurance, one venue to be heated, one venue to be secured and will be more appealing to the community if a variety of activities can take place there other than shooting. What a wonderful way to promote our sport, include the local community not exclude. How many clubs hold open days or run family fun days? I am only aware of two BRC and MRC. Both events are very successful and run annually. What about NRPAI on tour? A few air rifles, permission from schools to use their halls/playing fields or the local GAA hall or pitch, insurance, approval from and possibly endorsement from Dept of Education? No need for major licences as the local Superintendent can issue permits for Air Rifles as he does for funfair air rifle ranges. Perhaps it is a loser but we will never know until we try.
Who knows, it may even lead to schools setting up rifle clubs as happens in some UK schools. Now there is a novel way to promote the sport and also win over some of the 3.8 million people on this Island. Word of caution, this would only work if it was rolled out on a National basis i.e. beyond Dublin. Perhaps a trial run in a number of selected schools would be a good place to start. If schools do not appeal there is also the Scouts and Foroige to be considered. I can almost hear clubs saying ” we tried it locally and it did not work”. Fine, let’s look at why it didn’t work and improve it and try again. After all, failure is the best incentive to try harder next time.
We have a number of National shooting bodies but unfortunately National seems to mean “my club only”. We need to forget personal differences and inter discipline rows and pull together on this or we will soon have nothing to fight over as we will have nothing. Let’s get proactive rather than reactive and stop the in fighting about what disciplines we approve of or disapprove of. If we go down that road we are doomed to failure, witness the example of the UK in 1987 (Hungerford and Michael Ryan). The NRA told the UK government they could see no reason for a civilian to have a full bore semi-auto rifle. Thousands of COMPETITIVE shooters lost their sport. Dunblane, .22 target shooters told the UK Government that they had no difficulty with a large calibre handgun ban. One month later they lost their .22 Target pistols also. Learn the lesson. Be careful what you say about disciplines other than your own. We have never had a Hungerford or Dunblane here so we should not adopt or even consider adopting similar attitudes to those of the NRA (UK) or UK .22 Target shooters. We are legitimate shooters, we pay for our sport, we are safe in our sport, we enjoy our sport, and our sport includes ALL classes of firearms whether we like it that way or not.


Regards
Gouda

civdef

Well said.

Sparks

gouda wrote:

If shooting is a minority sport, how come there are approx. 230,000 licensed firearms in this country?

Because most of those are not used for sports shooting but for hunting and/or vermin control, I'd imagine. I've applied to the Gardai for the actual statistics for last year, we may know soon enough.

I doubt if there are 230,000 canoeists or track athletes in this country yet they receive TV coverage and Government funding, without contributing a licence fee.

We do receive TV coverage and government funding, just not much of either by comparison.

The NARGC has been approached to ask clubs not to publish the names and addresses of club competition winners in local media as it could identify the houses which have guns, thereby increasing the risk of the house being burgled. Funny, I thought the Gardai were supposed to protect us from crime not the NARGC.

Funnier, the NTSA (who run nothing but competitions and get a little publicity for doing so) have never been approached over this.

All clubs should be causing uproar over this.

Which clubs have been actively prevented from publishing details?

The NRPAI and affiliated bodies (including NTSA,NSA,NASRC etc)

Don't make the mistake of thinking the NRPAI is a governing body. It isn't - it's basicly a lobbying group comprised of the four groups - the NTSA, NSAI, NASRC and the pony club tetrathlon people, set up so that the Sports Council had one group to talk to instead of four. The NRPAI's constitution forbids it from interfering in the organisation of the sports the constituent bodies run, and it's recognised only by the Sports Council. I put an organisational chart up on the board about this here.

Pity the NRPAI didn’t recognise that there were a lot of shooters outside Dublin and Wicklow/Wexford and beyond the walls of the Universities.

Actually, the college clubs aren't NRPAI - they're NTSA. Same goes for WTSC, RRPC and a fair few others. Clubs are meant to affiliate to the governing bodies, not the lobby group. (That's not to say there aren't NRPAI-affiliated clubs out there, but that's a bit on the murky side).

Perhaps things are changing, there is now Wilkinstown

Wilkinstown is most assuredly not NRPAI. They are, however, perhaps one of the best clubs in the country for promoting the sport, because they take in juniors like it was going out of fashion (which it may well be with this new Garda policy on U-16s shooting).

Isn’t it strange that with only 10% of shooters being members of the NARGC they can have a Compensation Fund, permanent offices a full time CEO and a relatively happy and peaceful ship?

Well, the NTSA charges €15 per year for membership. Our members have individual insurance (most with Countryside Alliance) - that's not included with the membership fee, mind! So a Compensation Fund is both unaffordable and unnecessary. We don't have paid staff either, so permanent offices wouldn't be of use. As to happy and peaceful... well, relative is the important word there, for all shooting associations!

Why don’t the NRPAI chase the other 90% and see what they can achieve?

Because the NRPAI shouldn't have individual members, it's contrary to it's purpose.

At least they should look at setting up County bodies to help promote the sport.

There aren't enough NTSA-affiliated clubs to warrant it, alas. It's something we're working on.

I know quite a lot of people who do not realise that the NRPAI exist. Wonderful job of PR, keep it up and we won’t need the Government to prevent us from having our sport, we can obliterate it ourselves.

Yes. Well. If I got into that, I'd be sued. Not kidding.

It’s funny when I speak to people about joining the NRPAI, they seem to think that the NRPAI has nothing to offer them.

For an individual, they're right - it's the governing bodies that people should be affiliating to!

I find it difficult to contradict them, as there are no ranges nearby, or competitions nearby. Also as they would mainly be rabbit hunters, having to use subsonic ammunition on ranges does not appeal to them, particularly as they are aware that subsonic .22 ammo is far more likely to ricochet than high velocity.

Why couldn't they use subsonic on the range and supersonic off the range, assuming that the rifle can take it?

The argument about subsonic being more accurate does not hold water as they would like to be able to compete with what they would use normally and improve their skills with this.

Well, if that's the case, then they can go ahead and use supersonic ammo on the ranges, subject of course to the decision of the range officer (whom even the governing bodies won't try to overrule).
There's no actual ISSF rule against supersonic ammo that I can think of off the top of my head (must go check), it's about the weight of the bullet so far as I remember. Shooters just choose subsonics because supersonic is much less accurate thanks to the increased wind drift (higher for super than subsonic because of the physics) and the tumble if they go subsonic before the target line.

I believe it is because existing rules in clubs prohibit high velocity .22 ammo that it has done more towards dividing shooters rather than uniting them and this continued rift is furthering the view of an “us and them” mentality with regard to sports shooters and target shooters. We all shoot and enjoy our sport, why can we not enjoy it together?

I can only speak to two or three clubs here on this particular rule, but I understand it's for health and safety as the backstops in DURC and RRPC won't deflect high velocity ammo properly (too much kinetic energy - and as you know, K.E. goes up by the velocity squared, so even small increases in velocity ramp up the kinetic energy at target quite a bit) and in some cases it will punch right through the backstop - I've seen it happen (or more accurately, I've seen the result of it happening - I generally try to avoid watching the backstop when bullets are going through it as you have to be behind the targets to do so )

In the UK Practical Shotgun, Practical Rifle, Gallery Rifle,.22 Target, .22 Sporting (High Velocity) Muzzle Loaders (pistol and rifle) Archery, Crossbow, Air Pistol, Air Rifle can all be enjoyed in the same venue without any difficulty

Er, where exactly? I don't know of anywhere where ISSF 10m Air Rifle and UKPSA Practical Shotgun get within an ass's roar of each other, especially not when ISSF and the IPSC are not the best of friends!

and I understand there has been some crossover from one discipline to another as people can see what the other sports are like and can then try them out.

While I'm not saying that crossover's not a good idea (I think it's one of the best), I've only really seen it work in a few cases. Pony Club to NTSA is a common one as we both shoot 10m air rifle. I've seen Nick Flood try NSAI to NTSA, and he did reasonably well at it, though nowhere near the level he was at in silhouette. And there are shooters like those in FSC who seemed to be interested in just about anything that went bang, pop, whoosh or sproing

I can see no reason why we cannot do the same here; in fact it would ease the financial burden on clubs as building/insurance costs would be spread over a larger number of members.

To be honest, financial burdens aren't the main problem in setting up clubs, legal burdens are - planning permission, being allowed to shoot on the range, and so on.
Financial is a pretty solid second place.

Sparks

Times are changing and the only way to protect the sport long term is to adopt a radical new approach. This is not to say that all which has happened previously was wrong but we are in an age when a fresh approach from the ground up is possibly the only way to ensure our sport is there for future generations to enjoy.

Last time I said that, I needed a kevlar suit and a helmet afterwards

With land for ranges hard to come by, combining with other clubs to develop a multi use facility makes sense, it is only one planning application, one venue for public liability insurance, one venue to be heated, one venue to be secured and will be more appealing to the community if a variety of activities can take place there other than shooting.

And for most disciplines, you're correct - but as I've said, in public, more than once, if you have a discipline like IPSC taking place, and the press got one look at it, we'd all be in the can by the end of the week. They'd have a field day with us and even the best PR operation wouldn't help. And we don't have the best PR operation, we have a few volunteers, even fewer of whom have any kind of formal training.

How many clubs hold open days or run family fun days? I am only aware of two BRC and MRC.

Family fun days? Well, WTSC's juniors are usually strongly supported by their parents who travel to watch little Jimmy or whomever at the National Championships or whatever shoot it happens to be. And they've run charity events as well - but actual "open days" are a bit tough from insurance and legal viewpoints.

Both events are very successful and run annually. What about NRPAI on tour?

The NRPAI did a stand in the midlands fair for a while - it resulted in very few members joining, and virtually no PR outside of Countryside Alliance Ireland's newsletter.

A few air rifles, permission from schools to use their halls/playing fields or the local GAA hall or pitch, insurance, approval from and possibly endorsement from Dept of Education? No need for major licences as the local Superintendent can issue permits for Air Rifles as he does for funfair air rifle ranges. Perhaps it is a loser but we will never know until we try.

Well, the midlands fair did see this being tried at a major event where most of the people present were into field sports and a fair percentage would have owned firearms - turns out that air rifle (ISSF air rifle anyway) is just not that popular.

Who knows, it may even lead to schools setting up rifle clubs as happens in some UK schools. Now there is a novel way to promote the sport and also win over some of the 3.8 million people on this Island. Word of caution, this would only work if it was rolled out on a National basis i.e. beyond Dublin. Perhaps a trial run in a number of selected schools would be a good place to start. If schools do not appeal there is also the Scouts and Foroige to be considered. I can almost hear clubs saying ” we tried it locally and it did not work”.

Wilkinstown tried it locally and it worked very well indeed - right up until the school board had a fit and demanded insurance that would cover anyone within an ass's roar of the school who got injured in any way at all, even though this was air rifle indoors...
Recently they were asked to come back and run it again - but now they can't, because the Attorney-General has given notice that under-16s shooting is illegal under the Firearms Act, even if it's with daddy's air rifle.

We have a number of National shooting bodies but unfortunately National seems to mean “my club only”. We need to forget personal differences and inter discipline rows and pull together on this or we will soon have nothing to fight over as we will have nothing.

Some of those interdiscipline rows weren't interdisciplinary, but interpersonal and should be dropped faster than a hot potato. But some of the differences were more, well, professional in nature (for lack of a better term) and have real basis in fact, rather than being just a clash of egos. Those are more serious and cannot just be dropped, but need actual work to resolve - and some may not even be resolvable but may boil down to a complete conflict of interests!

Let’s get proactive rather than reactive

In part, that's one of the reasons to have this forum, so definitely, we have to.

Learn the lesson. Be careful what you say about disciplines other than your own.

Ah, but the lesson also includes policing our own lest we be policed! Remember, part of the reason pistol shooting got shafted in the UK was that the lunatic fringe of the fullbore pistol shooters there (a tiny, tiny minority, I'll point out) gave the worst interviews and the worst public image that was possible to give without actually shooting someone. We're talking here about people driving to the shooting range with a 9mm tucked into their belt, walking up to the firing point and unloading several magazines into the sandbank, sans target, and then sticking the 9mm back in the holster and driving off. Idiots like that need to be severely sanctioned by the clubs they drag down. Note that this isn't discipline-bashing - this is a case of unsafe individuals with firearms. The discipline is irrelevant. And the lesson's not been learnt so far - I see the BASC hasn't called for the prosecution of the idiots who killed and wounded three people in the UK in lamping accidents over the past few weeks because they shot at a target they couldn't see. That is a mistake you expect a responsible group to condemn because it's so serious and so preventable at the same time. It's just plain irresponsible to pull the trigger if you can't see your target, plain and simple.

We are legitimate shooters, we pay for our sport, we are safe in our sport, we enjoy our sport, and our sport includes ALL classes of firearms whether we like it that way or not.

Hand in hand with that, however go two things;
1) We cannot afford at this point in time to go about acting like we're in a position of strength, not while there are amendments to the firearms act being sent to Committee (the second reading of the CJB is number 14 on todays Order Papers for the Dail, by the way). The fact is that we don't have a right to our sport, as you pointed out, and we have to act accordingly - that doesn't mean acquiese, but it does mean to act like it's a negotiation, not a civil rights case.
2) While we may want all classes of firearm, we may not want all classes of people - just those who behave responsibly with firearms. Dunno about you, but I don't want my name tied up with someone who knocks back six beers then heads off to the fields to fire a shotgun in the air in the middle of the night...

civdef

Any word on how applications for imports/firearms certs have been going lately?

les45

Civ, I applied for a permit for a .22 Target pistol on the 27/July and picked up permit mid September, I have also applied for a permit for my .45 Practical Pistol , and following a meeting with my local firearms officer was informed that this permit would also be issued. I am a member of a target/practical pistol club in N.I and such membership was sufficent for the applications to be sucessful, I have applied for import licenece from D.O.J, by the way practical pistol is alive and well on the island of Ireland!!, and we dont run around in combats. In my dealings with the local firearms officer he has being most helpful, I will keep you posted.

Chipboard

I have been interested in handguns for years and now that the ground seems to have shifted in my favour I was wondering if anyone could advise as to how I should proceed. I own a .22 and 12 guage and I am extremely safety conscious. I am a member of a range which currently only has clay pidgeon shooting and a rifle range but I'd say they would be favourably disposed to allowing handguns in. I've gone to the States to shoot but obviously I cant afford to do that on an ongoing basis. I'm a bit confused by all this talk of importation certs and its seems to be a bit of a chicken and egg situation. I'd like to start off with a .22 pistol and obviously I would like to keep on the good side of my local firearms officer. Can anyone give me any pointers.

civdef

The import cert thing seems to have been overstated. Import certs have been granted, and firearms dealers are able to order them in from Irish wholesalers like other types of firearm.