My religion forbids my sexuality

Annasopra

Ok, I am 15 and a lot of you are saying i shouldn't tag myself right away, but if you really read the first message I said I was having homo feelings, not saying I was gay, and I'm just worried that I'd be living a life of sin if I did turn out gay, that's all I really meant.

It is perfectly natural to have feelings that you might be homosexual at 15. what I would say is that you are worrying too much at the moment about what might happen, I think you should just take time to work things out in your own head, there are lots of people who are gay and religious.

Gordon

Doodee

Originally posted by seamus

That would be like a programmer writing a program that doesn't work the way he wants it to....

Hey! leave me out of this!

Zillah

My apoligies to anyone this offends but I'm a believer in absolute truth always...

Which leads me on to my first point:


Sin is bull****.

Sin is about some close minded people spreading their lies to control other human beings through fear and guilt. I can't stress that enough, sin is bull****. Organised religion lost its way centuries ago. Jesus started the concept of mass (do this in memory of me...) as a fun celebration of life and each other. Compare that to the nasty atmosphere of sin and guilt that the church churns out these days.

On to my second point.

God doesn't judge you. Thats one of the few things that christianity got nicely on the head. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, quite frankly if God exists he made you and anything to do with you, and he couldn't give the tiniest little toss about what you might ever do with another man.

And my final point.

Faith is also bull**** unless it serves a purpose. Personally I have no faith in anything, I see it as believing in something just because you're told to from an early age. I hate people who take faith to the point where it harms other people.

HOWEVER, there is absolutely nothing wrong with faith when it helps you get through yet another day in this preposterous thing we call life.

HOWEVER, there is abosultely everything wrong with faith when it makes you feel bad. If your religion tells you that something that you feel, that harms no one, is wrong, then your religion is bull**** and you need to find something that makes sense to you.

(I'm well aware that I repeatidly used the word bull**** in this post, but thats what happens when you put me alone in a room with religion and homosexuaity)


Forget the pebble, forget my hand, content and be.

PS : The bible was written by shepards who knew vastly less about the world than the average modern ten year old

LegacyUser

Ok, a lot of you have made the valid point of why God would make me something he would hate. It's an interesting point, but I'm not going to brand myself GAY yet, as I'm only 15, becuase these feelings maight go away after all. But anyway, will get back to you in a few years if I am Gay, but until then,

Live long and prosper!

MarcusGarvey

Do a search for "Primacy of Conscience". Should help with dealing with your sexuality while keeping your beliefs. Also I think theres some gay catholic websites in the resources list in this forum.

By the way, you got to love the google ads for this thread.

Boston

Originally posted by Torn apart guy
Ok, a lot of you have made the valid point of why God would make me something he would hate. It's an interesting point, but I'm not going to brand myself GAY yet, as I'm only 15, becuase these feelings maight go away after all. But anyway, will get back to you in a few years if I am Gay, but until then,

Well you can be have those feelings without actually wanting to express them sexually, which might be the case. then you don't have to really worry about religion.

satori

*big BIG hug*

huney, it sounds like you have got some good advice here and just thought you'd need a hug!!!

hehehe

shoegirl

Originally posted by Torn apart guy
OK, I consider myslef really religious, pray every day and go to mass(I'm chatolic and 15 yr old), but lately I've been feeling homosexual feelings towards men. I'm even more torn apart because the chatolic church forbids homosexuality and bisexuality. I'm not sure I could live a lie all my life and say I'm straight when I'm not. This is really something that I'm torn apart with: My sexuality or my religion?

First of all (and I speak as a now atheist who was once very devout up to about the age of 30). The church does not "forbid" homosexuality. What it forbids are sexuals acts. And just to be non-discriminatory it forbids them amongst unmarried straight people to. So technically, if you're not having sex, you've done nothing wrong, so you can have a clear conscience. (Interestingly enough, I think there is no actually definition of "sexual acts" anywhere in church teachings so you could technically debate this further).

However in practice the church as an institution can be highly hostile to gay people. Not as much, however, as so-called practicing lay people, who are deeply discriminatiory (take for example the vindictive behaviour of the CPSA regarding the survey sent to schools). They are actually wrong because the church teaches you "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

If its any consolation, I had a part time with a church in Dublin for many years and one of the curates is gay. I still occasionally see him in the Front Lounge on my visits home! I think you need to think about the subject and try to separate the prejudice of many so-called catholics from the real teachings of Christ, and see where you come out. (My atheism, by the way, has nothing to do with my sexuality, it is just a feeling I started to have a couple of years back).

eth0_

Originally posted by Torn apart guy
I'm not sure I could live a lie all my life and say I'm straight when I'm not. This is really something that I'm torn apart with: My sexuality or my religion?

Don't beat yourself up about it, you may just be going through a phase. Lots of teenagers feel confused about their sexuality, it doesn't necessarily mean they *are* gay.

Try not to fixate on it too much, maybe see how you feel six months/a year down the line and then decide what you want, to be happy with your sexuality, or to hate yourself because you think you're breaking 'Gods' rules. Having gay feelings isn't exactly against the teachings of the catholic church, is it? I would have thought acting upon those feelings are what is 'frowned upon'.

There are lots of gay catholic/christian groups around as well, it hasn't affected their faith

I.J.

Sorry to interupt this continuing discussion but reffering to the first few posts, I just want to add that Catholicism is not a faith but a fascist dictatorship. The majority of this organised cult has no truth. You can believe in a higher spirit without having to be part of a religion. The Catholic Church HATES homosexuals. If The Bible was true, why doesn't it exist today?. People are not burned at stakes like they used to be by the Catholic Church. The Bible says homosexuals must be killed immediately. A democracy has taken over the world and the Catholic church has lost out. Homosexuality is part of a democracy. You can still have faith and not be Catholic. This is something that is so essential and should be told to the world. Be inspired, not brain-washed. The church sometimes tries to move along with the times but if God rules the world, why would the church have to move?. It is being pushed along by freedom seekers and these people are certainly not Catholic.

I do honestly believe that Catholicism was invented as a form of world domination. It almost got there too and was not far off. The Mafia (amazing coincidence that both power trippers come from Italy) has followed this idea too. However the more we put people before God, the better life will be. "Real" democracy and freedom only began in the last century and it will progress further as long as people are not dictated to by religions. In a way I would say I am Christian because I believe Jesus existed but I also feel the Catholic Church exploited the image and legend of Jesus Christ for its own selfish desires. The Vaticans wealth runs into billions. Tell me thats not greed.

I should add that I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic schools. I'm 20 years old and even in my time staunch Catholic teachers were roaring the Catholic teaching at us. For a sensitive child this kind of stuff was traumatic. I see no goodness in Catholicism. Sure, there is good priests and nuns helping in the 3rd world countries but the organisation itself is only about power and money. The Pope uses the good innocent priests and nuns in order to convert people to Catholicism, hence giving The Vatican more power!.

satori

Although i am not a christian, i find there lore and teachings to be generaly beautyful and even though I do not feel a bond with this fate it dose desirve respect.

I dont think the problem lies in the teachings themselves but peoples interpertations of them.

From the above i think your problem lies with the catholic tradition...
Dont work yourself up about it, no one has the right to judge... an important lesson that may parisheners forget!
The essence lies in living a good life... thats all anyone can ever really ask of you!

I wish you nothing but peace and love

satori

Godkickingboots

Hey Torn Apart Guy, that's a really horrible position to be in and seeing as you're so devout this must be really doing your head in.
In response to your question (your religion or your sexuality), I'd have to really, really recommend you go with your sexuality. Millions of people live just fine and dandy without being part of the Catholic Church, or any religion or gods at all. On the other hand, repressing your feelings can make you terribly unhappy, especially if those feelings are towards another person. And even worse, so long as you believe in Catholic teachings, thinking about or acting on your impulses will be a sin.
I can't imagine how awful it would be to be thinking about someone you love one minute and thinking about eternal damnation the next.
It might be painful for you, but my honest advice would be to wean yourself off the Church; do some thinking, some reading, consider questions like " Why, if it exists, would the omnipotent creator and ruler of the universe care who I have a crush on?". " The Bible says so" isn't a very solid answer. The Bible says alot of silly, and just plain wrong, things.
I couldn't agree with I.J. more, his vitriol has a lot of truth to it. If it turns out you need some kind of belief, take the advice of so many others on this thread and believe in a God that doesn't need middlemen to promote him.
Sure, he might be a troll, but best to ere on the side of caution for his sake.
Satori, I'd recommend learing more about Christian lore and teachings before you commit yourself to saying they are beautiful and deserving of respect.

satori

I ment no offense,my statement was admittedly typed from the prespective of someone that finds the 'core' essence of that spiritual path a beautyful one and my own belife that what ever path we take in life diserves respect even those we ourselves do not walk because someone eles has chossen to.

Rredwell

Just to sicken all the TROLL conspiracy theorists: I myself went through a similar phase when I was 15. It happens, OK? The only difference in my case was that I managed to hold on to my faith. I only ever went through a small crisis of faith since (I'm 17) and my faith is still strong, even though I'm not a regular mass-goer, which I'm ashamed of.

Will all you "liberal" anti-Catholic hateniks please respect TAG's faith? It's his choice, just like following his homosexual tendencies. Your anti-religious spiels are hust as bad as anything the Church ever said about gays.

As for my sexuality to date? Hmmm.....

damien

It's like rain on your wedding day...

Zillah

"It's his choice, just like following his homosexual tendencies."


You don't see a slight contradiction in that?

Rredwell

Maybe and maybe not. What I'm saying is faith isn't exactly a thing that can be turned on and off at will. A lot of you won't like to hear it, but for many people, faith is intterwoven with their identity, just like thier sexuality. TAG seems to be one of them. And what's wrong with that? He asks for advice, and a lot of you have taken it as an opportunity to vent your own anti-Catholic feelings and deride Torn Apart Guy's faith, which is obviously something he holds dear.

Zillah

Rredwell wrote:

A lot of you won't like to hear it, but for many people, faith is intterwoven with their identity, just like thier sexuality.

Hell no I don't like it. Mainly because it's completely wrong. It's been shown by several studies, mostly of the human brain, that homsexuality and transgenderism have identifiable biological reasons, often such as parts of the brain developing much like those of a member of the opposite sex. Faith is learned.

Here's an experiment for you. We get two babies. Put each of them on a different desert island. If one of them was going to be gay, when he grew up he'd be gay. Its written into is brain.

Would you argue that the other could grow up to be a Catholic on this desert island? By your logic (...just like their sexuality...) he should grow up to be a Catholic regardless of his environment.

And just to preempt a very irritating counter argument (I'm not saying you will, just in case), don't even try to propose that sexuality can be learned. A childs environment can dictate how they deal with their sexuality, but it cannot alter it. A queer (I am one, I can say that word) born into a fundamentalist baptist family may completey go into self denial for his entire life and never practise his sexuality, but he is gay, he just deals with it differently.

Rredwell

No, I wouls never say that sexuality is 'learnt'. I'm just saying that a lot of people seem to be using Torn Apart Guy's dillemma as an opportunity to vent their own anti-religious spiels.
I agree that religion, eg Cathoilcism is learned by instruction. But faith is innately human. The other baby on the desert island wouls still want to know the answers to such questions as, "Why am I here? Who am I? Does my life have a purpose?" These are all questions that every human faith and creed strives to answer.

Gurgle

Rredwell wrote:

faith is innately human.

Over-simplification of the year award.

Maybe the innate human desire to learn leads to a huge pile of unanswerable questions (or un-understandable answers) leading to the conclusion that there must be someone or something smarter than humans whose job it is to know all the answers ?

Or maybe there is a god ?
Nah

falteringstar

Here's just a few very interesting things I've found doing a little research on Homosexuality in the bible...
See the attachment. (requires word) I think you'll all agree the church and many others have got it very wrong!

ixoy

Interesting document - cheers. I wonder what Roman Biblical scholars have to say on it?

Zillah

Rredwell wrote:

a lot of people seem to be using Torn Apart Guy's dillemma as an opportunity to vent their own anti-religious spiels.

Does that really surprise you? Religion has been discussed in a GLB forum, I can't believe that anti religious spiels are unexpected to you. Religion has for centuries taught hate and encouraged violence against homosexuals, what else would be an expected reaction?



Faith isn't inately human. Faith is being lazy, and IMHO, faith is being a coward, it's the easy way out.

Every human being at some stage asks, "Why am I here?" or something like it. I say back, I don't know. That's a very very scary thought. I don't know, and possibly never will. Faith is the ability to believe something for no other reason than you want to. It's a form of self denial and allows a person to presume to know the answer to the question of, what why who etc, am I?

Faith is a comfortable illusion, like a mathematician that ignores the remainder, or the child that imagines his mother isn't dead. It might be nicer, but it's not true. I can't lie to myself like that. I'll never find the answer like that.

Maybe I never will, but at least I'll have tried.

damien

phlematic wrote:

Religion has for centuries taught hate and encouraged violence against homosexuals

Some religions.

Faith is the ability to believe something for no other reason than you want to.

Kinda like loving someone then ? Trusting your heart with them and all ? There's no proof either way as to how they turn out.

I'll never find the answer like that.

Maybe I never will, but at least I'll have tried.

Faith is not being lazy, faith can be taking the giant leap of not trusting your senses and taking the leap. For many who think scientifically faith takes a lot of courage.

There was no actual proof for relativity for many years. The idea of it to start with didn't make sense, even to the most scientific. It took another while to be shown to be true. Einstein had faith, as did many others. Was that being lazy and having lack of courage ? What about those that invented quantum theory. Believing in something that couldn't be proven until a whole new type of mathematics needed to be invented.

fozzle

I don't think it's fair for people here to dismiss TAG's religion like that, most people on this forum have experienced or know people who've experienced predjudice because of their sexula preferances, it's no fair for us to then shove our prejudices down other's throats.

Torn Apart Guy, your faith is obviously important to you so it's important for you to find a way to deal with both it and your sexuality. I suggest you look through your bible, I'd imagine you'll find a number of teachings with which yuo don't agree, this happens in most religions if they don't make changes to allow for modern society. You shouldn't have to give up something as important to you as your beliefs, but perhaps there are Christian belief structures which don't involve homophobia which you might find match your personal beliefs better. Of course, you may not be gay at all, a lot of people go through a period of uncertainty, but from the sounds of it, you don't peresonally have a problem whith homosexuality, except in so far as you try to conform with your reliegion's teachings. Personally I think it's wonderful to have so much faith so I really think you should try joining a branch of Christianity that allows homosexuality, regardless of whether you ever end up in a same sex relationship.

Remember, in the end, only you can know what's right for you, I hope God helps you find it.
Best of luck.

Zillah

"Some religions."

Quite right, although it is Catholicism in question.


"Kinda like loving someone then ? Trusting your heart with them and all ? There's no proof either way as to how they turn out."

Nonesense. A more applicable comparison would be to be in love with the person that owns that apartment over there. You have never met this person, aren't even sure if they exist, and have presumed everything you know about them. Once a mars bar wrapper fell from the approximate direction of the window there, you presume it be a message of undying love for you also.


"The idea of it to start with didn't make sense, even to the most scientific. It took another while to be shown to be true. Einstein had faith, as did many others."

Do not confuse forming a hypothosis with the religious concept of faith.

" What about those that invented quantum theory. Believing in something that couldn't be proven until a whole new type of mathematics needed to be invented."

Faith in God and "Faith" in a scientific theory are hardly even related. Einstein believed in the theory of relativity and set out to prove it. The religious believe in God and consider that the end of the matter.

Don't insult the scientific method by linking the process of forming and proving a hypothosis with "faith". The people that invented :rolleyes: quantum theory didn't have faith in it, they formed a hypothosis and tried to prove it. If they had seen a valid scientific argument showing that their theory made no sense or was unprovable then they'd drop it. A religious person with faith would do no such thing.

I stand by my entire original post.

Yoda

I don't have any idea what any of you mean by the use of the word "faith". Regarding the word itself, I think it is a portmaneau which encourages sloppy thinking.