Tram lane Confusion

MrPudding

I heard an ad on the radio this morning warning cyclist of the danger of getting wheels trapped between the lines and warning cyclist and pedestrians of the dangers of wet tracks.

Better late than never I suppose.

MrP

seamus

Originally posted by MrPudding
I heard an ad on the radio this morning warning cyclist of the danger of getting wheels trapped between the lines and warning cyclist and pedestrians of the dangers of wet tracks.

Better late than never I suppose.

MrP

Pedestrians?Wet tracks? I guess it's a risk, however small.
They should have electrified the tracks, that'll keep people from walking on them!

BrianD

The Metro is more hogwash from Brennan to appease voters. A metro in Dublin? Ridiculous and we could never afford it. Unfortunately, urban planning and development in Dublin has made the provision of a metro almost impossible. Construction of more light rail and the upgrading of existing heavy rail lines is the way forward (a link to the airport from an existing rail line in included in this).

At the end of the day when you examine the debate and commentary about a metro, there is only one line proposed and thats to the airport (and not even to Swords). Hardly the London Underground is it? Perhaps we should all move to the rezoned lands of Nth. County Dublin and we can all park are cars in the Airport and get the Metro to Stephens Green.

Hagar

Who owns all the rezoned land in Nth Dublin?
Let me guess. Hmmmm.. Fianna Fail.....

dub45

Originally posted by BrianD
I wouldn't agree. I have driven on James St a number of times and all though it is a mess it is pretty straightforward driving.

The trams in the centre of road are temporary signs, and are sufficient enough to give guidance to motorists. I haven't noticed any of the permanent warning signs for cyclists here or anywhere else yet.

I dont think you are capable of agreeing with any semblance of a criticism of anything LUAS. I think it is extraordinary that there is no warning that a full lane will be shared between other roadusers and Luas.

BTW it looks like that cars and trams will share James St. from what I can see. Anybody clarify?

And if you had to ask if the lane is bein shared then surely that in itself justifys my criticism. You say you have driven the route and yet you did not know for definite that it was being shared with the Luas!!!! But you consider that to be ok?

BrianD

I have only driven one way (into town) but I have noticed the new road markings that were queried elsewhere on the board. The markings - which look permanent - indicate that that both outbound vehicles and trams will share the same lane from Steevens Lane junction to the hospital. What I am querying is if this will be the final state of affairs or is just while construction work continues on this section.

BrianD

I think it is extraordinary that there is no warning that a full lane will be shared between other roadusers and Luas.

it's a yellow sign with a tram on it!

dub45

Originally posted by BrianD
it's a yellow sign with a tram on it!

That sign in no way indicates that a lane will be shared between trams and traffic it merely indicates the presence of trams and is around quite a bit as far as I can see. Maybe as a motorist you consider that adequate but I am sure lots of motorists would not take that to mean that the lane would be shared with trams.

BrianD

If I see a yellow sign with a deer on it, I expect that there might be deer on the road ahead, if I see one with children I expect that there may be children at play, if I see one with a tram on it I expect trams.

It will be interesting to see how this section of the route works in practice.

parsi

Originally posted by dub45
That sign in no way indicates that a lane will be shared between trams and traffic it merely indicates the presence of trams and is around quite a bit as far as I can see. Maybe as a motorist you consider that adequate but I am sure lots of motorists would not take that to mean that the lane would be shared with trams.

and what about us poor folks coming up from the country - sure 'twill be murhder altogether for d'All Ireland - does the Luas go to Barry's Hotel ?

dub45

Do you not think that motorists are entitled to a clear warning that they will be sharing the road with trams? Particularly as it is not the case in most other parts of the city.

Ironically enough there are signs even though they are misleading on the lane which you have used!!! They state that there are trams in the middle of the road.

I think 'interesting' is the wrong word to use when peoples lives are at stake? It is not an academic excercise we are talking about here.

seamus

Originally posted by dub45
Do you not think that motorists are entitled to a clear warning that they will be sharing the road with trams? Particularly as it is not the case in most other parts of the city.

I don't really see what the big issue is. If the trams or the cars have to cross eachother, the road markings will show you, just like for slip roads, and all other kinds of junctions. You also can't miss the big set of tracks.

I think 'interesting' is the wrong word to use when peoples lives are at stake? It is not an academic excercise we are talking about here.

Well, not really. One thing people seem to think is that trams are like trains. People seem fanatical about "Get out of the way! Stay off the tracks!". They're not like trains at all, they move slowly and can stop on pinhead. The one attitude people seem to have is if you get into the way of a tram, that's it going to keep going. It won't. Think of it like a bus that's just stuck to one route.

Hagar

At present if a bus breaks down or is involved in an accident serious enough that it cannot be moved the following buses can drive around it. What will happen if something similar happens to a tram?

seamus

Originally posted by Hagar
At present if a bus breaks down or is involved in an accident serious enough that it cannot be moved the following buses can drive around it. What will happen if something similar happens to a tram?

Give them a ring there and ask them. I'm sure there are procedures in place for a quick repair/turnaround, since a tram breaking down will essentially cripple or seriously impede an entire line, never mind the traffic.

uberwolf

Originally posted by seamus
Give them a ring there and ask them. I'm sure there are procedures in place for a quick repair/turnaround, since a tram breaking down will essentially cripple or seriously impede an entire line, never mind the traffic.

further to this, there is a reason its called light rail, even a derailment can be quickly sorted out. Relative to standard (heavy?) rail.

Hagar

I accept that the correction of derailments will be faster relative to heavy rail.

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

There is an article and picture on page 11 of the Mirror today, ok not a great paper but what the hell, which shows a derailment exercise in progress. The bottle jacks and bits of wood in use do not look all that promising.
Given the expected frequency of a tram every 10-15 mins is it really likely that wholesale congestion can be avoided?

BrianD

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

The RPA have a derailment assistance contract in place with Irish Rail where their engineers are on call to assist in any derailment.

Yep, all those chocks and bottle jacks are exactly how do they do it. Jack it up, shift it over and pop it back on the tracks. They don't use cranes or the like.

BTW did you see the 9pm RTE news tonight? Some idiot managed to drive up the tracks leading up to the Charlemont bridge. I noticed that he wasn't sticking around to tell of his "horrific ordeal". One of the concerned local residents even thought that the tracks were electrified and that the car could explode!

John R

Originally posted by Hagar
I accept that the correction of derailments will be faster relative to heavy rail.

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

There is an article and picture on page 11 of the Mirror today, ok not a great paper but what the hell, which shows a derailment exercise in progress. The bottle jacks and bits of wood in use do not look all that promising.
Given the expected frequency of a tram every 10-15 mins is it really likely that wholesale congestion can be avoided?

This is Dublin we're talking about, wholescale congestion is a daily occourence.
The contorted situations some people are coming up with to pre-blame LUAS for traffic problems, accidents and other assorted problems are laughable. A derailment is a very rare situation on any rail system. By far the most likely cause on tram networks is from third party action, car drivers most likely. The same can be said for total unit failures, there is also the facility for one unit to tow a stricken one in the event of failure.

Traffic incidents causing disruption is not something new to trams. I have lost count of the times I have been stuck in a traffic jam because two motorists were incapable of keeping their vehicles physically seperated. Standard practice now is to leave them in the middle of the road no matter how minor the damage until a Guardai comes to scribble their excuses in a notebook while witnessing the sudden onset of mysterious crippling back pains.

Hagar

I am greatly relieved to hear that there will only be improvements in traffic flow and no extra complications or delays when the Luas starts.

Will I be able to catch a flying pig at the Luas stations as well?

BrianD

Will I be able to catch a flying pig at the Luas stations as well?

Probably not, only guide dogs are allowed on the trams :-)

Bee

SEAMUS.

Thank you for your reasoned and intelligent reply.

To take issue with you on one point...

Seriously? That's one of your arguments?

I am serious, ask any ambulance driver that has to deal with Dublin traffic

Try anyone out of Townsend St taht has to deal with the increased congestion created by DCC pouring extra traffic onto the quays by blocking 99% of the traffic flow that previously used Pearse St to College Green.

Medically I can assure you that I know what I am talking about in relation to time between heart attack and treatment.

Bee

Bee

Any problems? People are saying imagine the chaos when it starts. It has started and it is running.

Umm!

I don't need to imagine the chao when it's running, its alrady creating chaos!! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!!!

Bee

www.irishtrucker.com/news/2004/june/2506045.asp

Dublin City Council blames Luas for traffic congestion

Dublin City Council has joined Dublin Bus in blaming test runs on the Luas line following the traffic gridlock in the city centre on Tuesday 22nd June.

Dublin city council’s director of traffic Owen Keegan said he was “absolutely certain” the unusually heavy traffic congestion on Tuesday morning (June 22) was caused by Luas.

Mr Keegan said the problem needed to be sorted out “because it does have the potential to have a disproportionate impact on traffic congestion and that is not acceptable to the city council.”

The Railway Procurement Agency described the heavy congestion as a glitch, which occurred under test conditions.

Victor

Bee, once too often (again!) two week ban for straying off topic and / or trolling. Please start a thread on feedback.

Maxheadroom, I've yet to see an apology - attack the post, not the poster. DadaKopf, you did push the line.

The rest of you put away the handbags.

BrianD

Irishtrucker.com ? Hardly an unbiased source of traffic news!

With the exception of the incident on Tuesday the traffic around Harcourt St has been no worse than the past now that the construction work is finished. Tuesday may well have been a cock up but that's why there is two months of testing to get these issues tried and tested and ironed out.

dub45

It was similarly reported in the Irish Times today.

MrPudding

The Tuesday traffic chaos is interesting. Lets look at possible causes. I think we can keep this pretty short.

The problem on Tuesday was that there was major traffic congestion, much worse than has been seen for quite a while. OK, keeping it simple we will assume the cause is one of 2 things:
1)Luas
2)The rain.

Now, lets look at each individually. First, our Friend, the Luas. It was running on Tuesday. This much we know. But wait, it has been running for weeks now. Was there any difference between the tram frequency on Tuesday and the tram frequency on say, Monday or the previous week? Well, apparently not. It would seem that the tram have been running at that frequency for some time. Another point made was that the tram drivers were requesting more light changes than normal.

Next, the rain. It rained on Tuesday. And it rained, and it rained. Was there ant difference between the rain on Tuesday and any previous days rain? Well, I think most of you will agree that the rain was quite severe. Certainly the most severe is the last few weeks at least. We could ask our friends on the weather board for some details I’m sure.

Let’s analyse this. The trams were running on Tuesday. But they have been running for some time at the sane frequency. However it was only on Tuesday that the traffic was total chaos as opposed to normal chaos. Therefore I think it is safe to assume that Luas alone could not be responsible for the increased chaos. Rain. It rained. A lot. Has rain caused congestion in the past? Well yes. The dogs in the street will tell you that rain is a major cause of increased congestion in the city. There are several reasons for this. Firstly, and most obviously, more people take cars when it rains. We also have increased traffic light failures during periods of heavy rain, driver driving more slowly & carefully (not a bad thing) and a general decline in the quality of the roads due to localised flooding.

What is the most likely cause? Something that has been happening for weeks at or about the same frequency and has not caused this level of congestion, i.e. The Luas? Or, the rain which was the heaviest it had been since the Luas started running? Personally I think the primary cause id the rain. It makes sense as it is really the only possible cause that just happened on that particular day. But, I think the drivers requesting a larger than normal number of light changes may also have contributed. This is also something that changed on Tuesday that could contribute to the increased congestion. However, I feel that the increased requests for light changes were caused by the increased congestion and not the other way around.

So, in summary. Why would something that has been happening for a number of weeks suddenly cause a problem on that particular day? If you have a system or process that is working to a certain level and suddenly does not work at that level anymore you need to look for a change. Luas tell us that there were not more trams running on Tuesday than there were in previous days. If this is the case how can the trams be the cause? Look for something different about the day where the problem occurred. Good troubleshooting involves not jumping to conclusion and shouting out the first possible cause that pops into your head.

My 2cents.

MrP

Victor

Originally posted by MrPudding
Well yes. The dogs in the street will tell you that rail is a major cause of increased congestion in the city.

Freudian slip?

Dublin Bus have said they have a satillite photo showing the congestion happened before the rain. The city council are putting it down to Luas all but completely taking over the controls at junctions.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/3473274?view=Eircomnet

City traders to increase damages claim over Luas
From:ireland.com
Saturday, 26th June, 2004

Traders in Dublin's Harcourt Street have said they will increase the amount of damages they are seeking from the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) as a result of the Luas construction.

The traders, who are in discussions with separate trader groups in Middle Abbey Street and the Irish Financial Services Centre (IFSC) over compensation claims, say their concerns about dirt and dust were dismissed by the RPA.

The RPA denied the allegation and said everything reasonable was being done to facilitate the traders, including external cleaning.

Speaking for the Harcourt Street traders, Ms Noelle Campbell Sharpe said the bill for cleaning the windows and carpets in her Origin Gallery had come to a "very reasonable" €5,000.

This figure, she said, included repairing paintwork and using specialist cherry-picker machines.

Ms Campbell Sharpe said she had asked the RPA to take care of the bill "because it was dreadful for the nearly two years it was a building site. We faced mountains of earth."

The disruption endured while the line was being built had impacted very badly on business in the street, she said. However, Ms Campbell Sharpe said that, the High Court challenge for compensation not withstanding, she felt the RPA should have picked up the cleaning bill. Her application had been "dismissed out of hand", and the traders were told they should appreciate the increase in property values due to Luas.

But Ms Campbell Sharpe said most of the traders were leaseholders and would face increased rents as a result of an increase in property values.

Mr Tom Manning of the RPA said: "We are making good anything broken and are doing some things. Cleaning up was part of it." However, he added that he felt a bill of €5,000 for window-cleaning on one building was a lot.

Meanwhile, Dublin Bus is in discussions with Dublin City Council on the introduction of a bus priority signalling system similar to that in use on Luas trams.

Plans to install the priority system on the city's buses have been discussed for some time according to the council, but it was felt the cost per bus was prohibitive, a spokesman for the council told The Irish Times.

Dublin Bus complained formally to the RPA last Tuesday that buses were running half an hour late after a series of Luas trams were given priority over all other traffic including public transport at the St Stephen's Green junction in the city centre.

The resultant queues stretched back as far as Cork Street in Dublin's Liberties with buses running up to 30 minutes late.

The bus company later said it simply wanted to ensure the traffic flowed well for all providers of public transport.

Dublin City Council traffic controllers, Luas staff and Dublin Bus have been in discussions for much of this week in an attempt to sort the problem out.

Speaking after one such meeting the senior controller Mr Brendan O'Connor told The Irish Times that discussions were also under way with Dublin Bus about introducing a similar system in cabs.

The system works by alerting the traffic control when a vehicle is approaching a traffic light. A vehicle can be designated low, medium or high priority depending on the time of day and its pre-agreed status in traffic hierarchy.

However, if the vehicle finds its priority setting is causing it to run late it can request a higher priority which results in less waiting time at lights. The first identification of a tram approaching a traffic light is automatic and triggered by the tram passing a certain point.

The second signal is sent as a request from the driver, who hits a button on his console.

It is understood that what happened on Tuesday was that Luas drivers hit their buttons too frequently and a "glitch" stopped controllers downgrading their requests.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/3473442?view=Eircomnet

Luas is right on track even without city colours
From:The Irish Independent
Saturday, 26th June, 2004

MAYBE the interior designer is from Wexford. It could why the colour scheme on the Luas trams is the same as the south-east county's livery.

All the carriages on the new tram system are decked out in purple and yellow, but just in case commuters forget where they are, images of the Customs House, Ha'penny bridge and Trinity College are also splashed across the seats.

Next Wednesday, the capital's commuters will finally have the long-awaited Luas when the St Stephen's Green to Sandyford, the Green line, opens.

Coming onstream 12 weeks late, but on budget, operator Connex is busy putting drivers through their final paces.

Commuters will be able to travel free for the first five days, after which minimum fares of €1.30 will take effect. The cost of return trip is €3.80. The €775m project, which has caused chaos on Dublin streets, yesterday took a small group of media to Sandyford.

The 9km trip took just 23 minutes, stopping at every station as the drivers practised ringing the warning bell, and opening the doors.

This phase of the testing has been going on for the last eight weeks, and with the Tallaght to Connolly Station line due to open at the end of August the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), whose baby this is, is keen to ensure that nothing goes wrong.

Although one confused motorist ended up driving onto the line last Wednesday, the RPA don't expect any further encroachments. Apart from a small stretch from Adelaide Road to the Green, most of the line is fenced in so it's highly unlikely more private motorists will choose the Luas line as a means of skipping rush-hour traffic.

And it's a smooth run out to Sandyford Industrial Estate. Reaching speeds of up to 70kph on the straights, Luas is so quiet that the 300 commuters expected to take each tram will read their newspapers in peace.

Once out of the city centre the tram passes through Ranelagh before moving on to Cowper - or Upper Rathmines - towards Dundrum, where it passes over lines of stopped traffic on the landmark new bridge.

There are two stops in Dundrum, one beside the county council offices and the other near the new shopping centre. Further on at Stillorgan there's the park-and-ride stop, before Luas trundles to a halt at Sandyford, the end of the line. Twenty million Luas passenger journeys are expected annually.

Paul Melia

MrPudding

Originally posted by Victor
Freudian slip?

Dublin Bus have said they have a satillite photo showing the congestion happened before the rain. The city council are putting it down to Luas all but completely taking over the controls at junctions.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/3473274?view=Eircomnet

Ooops. Corrected.

Has anyone seen the photos? I don't remember it not raining on Tuesday. It was raining Monday night when I went to bed and as far as I remember it was raining when I woke up. I may be wrong there but I am pretty sure it was.

Why did the tram drivers use their light override buttons more on Tuesday?

MrP

Victor

Originally posted by MrPudding
Ooops. Corrected.

No problem

Originally posted by MrPudding
Has anyone seen the photos?

I imagine, if they are satallite photos that they are licenced on a per copy basis and not readily available unless you want to pay.

Originally posted by MrPudding
Why did the tram drivers use their light override buttons more on Tuesday?

Maybe they were testing it, maybe they thought they weren't working and they pressed them again, too often. Ever have windows lock on you and you press [return] or [backspace] too much? Then windows catches up with itself and goes into hyperdrive and does thigns you don't want it to do?

dub45

What about location though? Was the traffic worse than usual because of the rain say on the northside?