Tram lane Confusion

BrianD

Anybody notice some confusion amongst motorists on the section of road between Blackhorse Bridge and Bluebell. This is where the tram runs on-street and in the centre of the road.

Whilst waiting in traffic on the citybound side, I noticed that many drivers aren't reading the signage and driving on the tram line. The tramlines are bordered by a thick continuous white line - similar to those used on bus lanes - with the traffic lane on the left of the line trams on the right. The conclusion I have come to is that when seeing the thick white line, motorists automatically assume that it is a bus lane and move to move to the right hand side of the white line to avoid what they think is a bus lane.

I have observed numerous cars on this section of road all of whom seem to change course from where they should be on the road right onto the tram track for no apparent reason.

seamus

Drivers also seem unaware of the difference in the type of vehicle. I drove down that section one day and the amount of drivers (particularly vans and taxis) doing their old trick of stopping on or over the white line in traffic was staggering.
Don't these people realise that the LUAS can't just go around them? :rolleyes:

Andrew Duffy

The tram-and-pedestrian-only Sean Heuston bridge is crossed regularly by cars driven by foreigners and chancers. While I can just about forgive someone with no English not understanding the eight seperate signs at each end of the bridge prohibiting traffic from crossing, I don't believe for a second that anyone could look at a surface of paving slabs with rails embedded in it and think it is a road.

MrPudding

The lack of compliance to simple but important I think the Luas will be great for compliance. One of the guys I work with said that Luas would be a disaster cos Irish drivers will block the lines by parking on box junctions waiting for lights. Well this may be the case but if one of these tossers gets hit by a tram I think he just might learn what the yellow cross hatching means.

MrP

BrianD

Just goes to show that you can erect as much signage as you like but nobody pays attention to it.

In fairness to cyclists, I have not seen any of the permanent signs that warn our two wheeled friends of slippery tracks in place yet. Plenty of temp ones mind you.

Steve Conway

This is why they need a longer - and more intensive - period of testing on the Red Line before it opens than on the Green one - the Red Line is vastly more complex in terms of interaction with traffic.

Officially, they are still saying "end of August" for the Red Line opening, but I'm prepared to bet €100 that once they have the Green Line open, and they can say that "LUAS is running" they will quietly announce a postponment of Red Line operations to September or even October.

Firts gauge run to Connolly was yesterday btw, pics will be on my site later tonight.

Incidently, wtf is with the "No Shepherds" signage????

Cal

I sat behind a woman who stopped on the cross hatch at the crossing in Sandyford Ind. Est.
It was great watching her sweat as she watched a tram approach. I'd say she'll think before doing that again.
The tram drivers must have controll of the traffic light sequence as the lights changed again to clear that stupid woman from the box before crossing. (Pity)

Cal

Hagar

Originally posted by seamus
Don't these people realise that the LUAS can't just go around them?

This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.
They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.
Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?
The roads are already overcrowded enough.
Trams in the 21st century, I suppose we should be grateful for the fact that they are not horse drawn.

BTW is there any truth to the rumour that the two tram lines are of different guages and the rolling stock from one cannot be used on the other?

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Hagar
This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.
They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.
Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?
The roads are already overcrowded enough.
Trams in the 21st century, I suppose we should be grateful for the fact that they are not horse drawn.

BTW is there any truth to the rumour that the two tram lines are of different guages and the rolling stock from one cannot be used on the other?

You really are an idiot aren't you? Have you ever used a modern tram system? Inflexible? There's no problem with interactions with traffic if drivers obey the rules of the road. Its time drivers in this city realised this isn't Bangalore...

And no, there's no truth in that rumour. Its also been discussed quite a few times on this forum, Try running a search...

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hagar
This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.
They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.
Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?
The roads are already overcrowded enough.
Trams in the 21st century, I suppose we should be grateful for the fact that they are not horse drawn.

BTW is there any truth to the rumour that the two tram lines are of different guages and the rolling stock from one cannot be used on the other?

This is typical of the attitude that really pisses me off. Trams work in every other city they are deployed in. Why would they not work here? Gobsh1t3 drivers that is why. Maybe if a few more people in this country took a driving test they would realise that red means stop and no you can't sit on the box junctions.

I really hope a few cars get hit by trams, I do not want any one to get hurt but I would presume that even seeing a tram approaching your car will be enough to convince most normal people with half a brain or more that it is probably nor a good idea to park where the trams go.

MrP

BrianD

This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.

Typical response of a bad driver. Most drivers blame external factors for their lack of or poor judgement or simply not leaving early enough to complete their journey on time.

Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?

Were they supposed to? When? we can't justify one on cost nor do we need one.

They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.

You might want to elaborate on this point a bit more. Why exactly are they inflexible?

John R

Typical Irish crap.
The trams are at fault, the guards are at fault, the buses, the clampers, the ticket wardens, the pedestrians, the cyclists, the government, the little green aliens...
Everyone is to blame for road mayhem but the car drivers. Until people start getting banned from driving for this sort of incompetent driving it will continue unhindered.

I would have thought that the tram lines plus road paving along with the thick white lines would be enough of a hint as to the purpose of the lane.

I expect it will not be long before there is a major tram v car collision, if not becaue of careless and stupid driving but from people knowingly using tram only sections to take shortcuts or que jump.

More depressing LUAS news; anyone around Stephen's green yesterday? If you were you may have noticed that the two newly installed ticket machines on the shopping centre side were smashed up by vandals.

BrianD

Well I actually took my firts trip on the Luas and it's great! Yes they do have a problem with the screens of the ticket machines being smashed.

It;s slow going up to the canal from the green but once you get onto the old railway line it really flys along. We were in Dundrum in no time.

Bee

I would presume that even seeing a tram approaching your car will be enough to convince most normal people with half a brain or more that it is probably nor a good idea to park where the trams go.

WHy?

Look at the cyclists. They cycle against oncoming traffic the wrong way along one way streets. Consistently cycle through red lights and are frequently hit by cars. It never seems to stop them either.

The Luas has presented new opportunities for cyclists to dice with death. Along Harcourt St /Adelaide Rd I saw a "cyclist" cut across the front of the Luas as the tram rounded the corner. It was a case of Hatch St or die! I expect to see cyclists travelling along the middle of the tram lines around Stephen's Green as the Luas at least in the test phase appears to be moving very slowly.

By the way if you know any normal people with half a brain my colleagues and I would like to meet them!

Bee

uberwolf

I presume its the case that cyclists are an awful lot more manevurable, in so far as they won't be stuck parked across the tracks watching a tram headed for them, powerless to move as was described earlier.

I have no doubt that there will be a litany of amusing and painful stories to be told as well as a few fatalities all inside the first year.

BrianD

German Bureaucracy: woman gets bill for tram death (from todays Irish Times 22/06/04 p8)

A woman whose 88 yr old mother was run over and killed by a tram was sent an itemised bill of €6,600 for repairs.

The investigation concluded that she and not the tram driver was responsible for the accident. Since she had no insurance they sent it to the next of kin. The Dresden tram company even offered to accept payment in installments.

She counter sued for the cost of the funeral and both parties agreed to offset one bill against the other.

See it happening in Ireland?

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
See it happening in Ireland?

No, unfortunately. We'd see DCC roll over and pay out crazy amounts.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Hagar
This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.
They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.
Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?
The roads are already overcrowded enough.
Trams in the 21st century, I suppose we should be grateful for the fact that they are not horse drawn.

BTW is there any truth to the rumour that the two tram lines are of different guages and the rolling stock from one cannot be used on the other?

I'm in Helsinki at present. By July, I'll have been here for a month. I ride the trams every day and take the Metro, rail and buses occasionally. Like the LUAS, the trams have their own lanes most of the time, but often share them with other commuter traffic in central areas. Unlike Dublin, there's no traffic congestion because, it seems, nearly everyone uses public transport. They use it because it's more hassle free than driving yourself. Sure, they have cars, but I've never once seen a traffic jam.

Surely the LUAS is a good idea (it only it were properly integrated) because, once the entire integrated public transport plan of Dublin is completed, there will be less reason for people to use cars and will, instead, switch to public transport.

With Dublin's current congestion crisis, it seems that to introduce trams - a pragmatic bus/train solution - is an essential measure not only to use the spaces available to implement a solution but also an effective way of redefining roadspace in Dublin and a moderate method of coercion to prompt drivers to use public transport.

As part of a bigger plan, the LUAS is just one element of an integrated public transport network.

You say the Metro should have been built instead of the LUAS. Well how do you suppose (1) that the Metro could be built before the encroaching congestion crisis destroys the city, society and economy?; and (2) how do you suppose, without other modes of transport, the Metro could reach all areas of the city to the point where hopping on a Metro is more convenient than hopping into a car?

Yes, the Paris Metropolitan is an excellent example of near total underground network-saturation - you're never more than 10 minutes walk from a Metro stop - but that network took a century to get to where it is today. Dublin simply hasn't got that long.

You say the LUAS isn't flexible. Less flexible than a Metro? I suppose it depends on what you mean by flexible, but I was always under the impression that it's easier to redirect a LUAS line than to fill in or extend a Metro tunnel. Cheaper, too.

What we need is an intelligent plan that integrates buses, rail, trams and underground so that the costs in time and money are cheaper than taking a car. We need a total reorganisation of traffic flows in Dublin and, after a time, a congestion charge. We need the plan to be overseen by politicians but entirely planned by expert planners and technocrats. However, the major obstacles are (1) disputes over national budget allocation, (2) the transport unions, who should be given an ultimatum but not dissolved, and (3) planning authorities.

Your point of view, sir, is short-sighted, selfish car-centric hogwash.

Hagar

Maxheadroom. You have no right to call me an idiot. I take exception to that. It is my understanding that personal abuse is not allowed on the boards.

If you want to disagree with my point of view do so.
Look at what Dadakopf did.
He took me to bits. In a good humoured way.
Fair play to him.
I accept a lot of what he said. Not all, because I believe that the powers-that-be can not see past the next election to plan a real infrastructure for the city and the country as a whole

I particularly like the "hogwash" bit.

seamus

Originally posted by DadaKopf
With Dublin's current congestion crisis, it seems that to introduce trams - a pragmatic bus/train solution - is an essential measure not only to use the spaces available to implement a solution but also an effective way of redefining roadspace in Dublin and a moderate method of coercion to prompt drivers to use public transport.

I had noticed a few years ago, that it seemed like DCC were not interested in easing traffic congestion by creating more space at all, rather they were reclaiming space for use solely by public transport. And I've been proven true. While there are a couple of ridiculous spots (the traffic lights in the middle of the Templeogue road), most of the QBC's operate smoothly, and are free of traffic. The aim being to make public transport a quicker way to get around. The QBCs would perfectly, if the bus service was efficient enough to use them correctly.

The ultimate goal seems to be, to get each and every driver who sits in the traffic on Harcourt St at 8.30 every morning, to watch, as 3 or four LUAS pass him by, having left the station 20 minutes after he left his house, and then decide, "**** it, it'll be easier to take that tomorrow". The more road they claim from cars, the better the public transport can be.
It will take a while though. The transport development plan is a long way from completion.

Hagar

At present all public transport is subsidised to some extent by the exchequer.
It's common knowledge that the motorist contributes more in taxation of various kinds, VRT, tax on fuel, road tax etc, than the state spends on the road system. Therefore it is reasonable to assume some of this money is used to subsidise the public transport that he is not using.

Now when the glorious day comes that we all do without cars and use only public transport how will the state survive without the income from the motorist who is not paying all those taxes anymore?
What hike in fares will be needed for public transport to break even?

One arguement is that the future public transport system would have so many customers that it would make money. The other arguement is that the inefficiencies that currently plague CIE will get worse as the system gets bigger. No matter what its called its still CIE at heart, still run by the same people with the same public service mindset ie if it all goes bad sure won't the tax payer cough up more cash.

The non-Dublin population is then being forced to pay punitive motoring costs designed to force Dublin people onto public transport.

No only is this unfair but for most of our rural population there is no public transport and cars are a necessity.

BrianD

Most "public transport" - lets call it mass transit - to avoid assuming it is publicly owned is subsidised by the tax payer in some form or other. The idea that mass transit operated by a private company takes this burden off the taxpayer is largely untrue. Nearly all private operators receive a subsidy for operating the service. The only advantage that a private company may offer is that in theory it could operate a service more efficiently than a public body (such as a CIE company). So there is some doubt if public service can ever pay for itself.

At the same time, can we afford private transport such as car ownership. Well that's doubtful too! Many cars on the road are company cars and many more or purchased on some form of extended credit. It's debatable whether most of us can afford private transport either!

The non-Dublin population is then being forced to pay punitive motoring costs designed to force Dublin people onto public transport.

Perhaps you could explain the link. At the same time, That's a bit rich coming from a rural dweller and I assume (unless you state otherwise) that you live in a one off house in the middle of nowhere. You expect a bus to pass by your home? It is one-off rural dwellers who are costing the rest of us a fortune. It is estimated that each one-off home is effectively subsidised by the rest of us to the tune of €30K - this covers the additional cost of reaching your house (on top of a hill probably) for municipal services, utility services down to having to run a post office or school for the 10 kids that might want to go. Hell we probably even have to throw in a Bus Eireann route for you. That's not even including the environmental effects ...

Hagar

I don't know where you live or how much you know about the country as a whole but here goes I lived in Dublin for forty two years and I have lived in the country for the past five so I think I can give a fairly well balanced view of how both communities are served by mass transport.

There is no public transport within a few miles of where I live. I drive my kids to school because I want them to travel safely. The buses used for transporting children to and from school, whether state or privately owned, are in general a disgrace. Most of them are twenty years old if the registrations are correct. Many of them have pre 87 plates which mean they were imported and re-registered. I suspect they came here from Britain after the could no longer pass the stringent MOT.

My house was not subsidised by you to the tune of €30k or anything like it. I paid for the ESB and water to be connected and they know how to charge. In fact ther is a good chance that I have subsided your education. I am not connected to mains sewerage, so I am not a burden to you there either. No street lights, no foot paths, I don't see where I am costing you anything. I have outside lights up which I pay for and they illuminate the part of the road near my house to the benefit of neighbours and strangers alike. There are no hospitals nearby so I won't be going there either.


I pay exactly the same taxes as anybody in Dublin but I will never get any of the benefits. I'm not complaining, I'm just stating facts. There is an Ireland outside Dublin that many Dubliners will never grasp.

dub45

Going back to the original thrust of the thread in spite of the fact that it is one of the few areas in the City sharing two full lanes with traffic there are no warning signs temporary or permanent warning motorists or cyclists (motor or pedal) of this fact as they approch James St from Thomas Street.

From day one there should have been at the very least warning signs that all of a sudden tracks woujld appear on the road but nothing. There is (to me anyways) a very misleading sign saying 'Tram in the center of the road' - now that to me means there is a lane on either side but there isnt. Also there are very misleading 'no entry signs' pointing towards Thomas Street and Inchicore which really should be 'no left turn' signs as they are meant to convey to traffic that they cannot enter the tram 'corridors' which swing left into Steevens Laneand James Hospital respectively.

I also feel that they should have provided a cycle lane on the footpath in James St as there is so little space between the footpath and the tracks there will inevitably be accidents as the trams pass cyclists and motorcyclists.

Bee

Originally posted by Hagar
This is exactly why the stupid Luas should never have been built in the first place.
They are totally inflexible and will never be able to adapt to future changes in traffic trends.
Why didn't the gobshytes build an underground like they were supposed to?
The roads are already overcrowded enough.
Trams in the 21st century, I suppose we should be grateful for the fact that they are not horse drawn.

HAGAR

Don't be put off by the moronic personal attacks, obviously the moderator needs to wake up a little but unfortunately demonstrates bias instead of impartiality

The LUAS is bad value for money supported by folk (apart from Connex) who do not understand that private enterprise needs no traffic congestion so that motorists i.e. business that generates profit, and yes the majority of motorists that drive through Dublin are attempting to go about their business building profit so that our public servants can be paid. Unfortunately there is a selfish mindset that imagines that forcing motorists off the road onto public transport will solve traffic problems but as any right thinking individual knows the majority of motorists use their car because they are working in profitable enterprise or are out generating profits paying the wages of the public servants that so far have failed road users miserably.


The LUAS is the biggest single public transport project in the history of the state. It currentlyl costs somewhere between €700m and €800m depending which government statement you believe. Yep, slightly more than the original quote that came in well under €300m. This is a massive rip off by any standards.

Public transport is all about capacity. The LUAS is rubbish a la terms of capacity for the money spent. The project secured government approval on the basis that each line would be able to carry approx. 7,000 passengers per direction per hour.

Recent statements from the Rail Procurement Agency said that the carrying capacity of each line would be only around 3,000 per hour. Any increase in that capacity could only be achieved if the trams were run at a frequency so high that would cause huge disruption to road traffic flows in the city even including cyclists!.

It is important to put that carrying capacity of 3,000 passengers in context. The same level of capacity can be achieved by a high-frequency Quality Bus Corridor.

The cost of a QBC is about one twentieth of that of a LUAS line. It seems clear to me, therefore, that LUAS does not represent good value for money for the taxpayers of the country or the people of Dublin.

And we must also be cognisant of the impact which LUAS will have on traffic movements in the city generally.

You don't have to be a transport engineer (better still don't be a Dublin Transport engineer as it appears to be an oxymoron!) to see that the junction of the M-50 and the N-7 is a mess. Even nice Mr.Brennan accepts that.

Oh My! The Mad Cow roundabout, don't get me started.... The junction was under-engineered from the start and we are now paying a huge price for that in terms of appalling traffic congestion. A few years from now we will have the same screw up on the Dublin Port Tunnel if the height is not adjusted. but back to the Luas/etc

The Mad Cow roundabout is about to get even madder. Because - and some people might find this unbelievable - we are going to put two level crossings across two of the slip roads on one of the busiest roundabouts in the country.

I sincerely hope that this particular piece of,I don't want to call it "engineering" does not cause massive traffic congestion in the whole West Dublin area. But I find it hard to see how this will not happen. Screw the computer simulations, the impact on traffic flow will be chaotic.

And it is not just cars that will be affected by LUAS. Dublin Bus estimates that the light-rail system is already causing serious disruption to their services even before it is formally commissioned.

I have friends that work in the emergency services, fancy having a heart attack and being delayed access to hospitals because of DCC's inept traffic engineers?

Dublin Bus has recently stated that running time on the number 51 route had doubled because of the LUAS works, while journey times on routes 39, 68 and 69 had been seriously impacted.

And it's worth pointing out that the people who use these routes live in parts of the city - Clondalkin, Rathcoole, Newcastle, Castleknock and Blanchardstown - will not be able to switch from bus to LUAS because LUAS does not serve their areas at all.

Obviously we have to complete the two LUAS lines that are currently under construction. But I think we should draw a line at that stage. Extending the Tallaght line from Connolly the short distance down to the Docklands makes sense. But I do not think that we should embark on any new LUAS ventures.

And I would disagree strongly with the DTO's joke strategy document, Platform for Change, which envisages a huge network of LUAS lines covering the city.

I believe that Dublin's future public transport needs will be best met by a combination of private buses and metro.

Provided they are given proper priority buses can deliver a fast and flexible service in return for a very modest investment of capital. And each QBC can carry as many people as a LUAS line. Clearly, the bus running on a QBC is a very efficient and a very economic option for Dublin.!

The way forward surely is to develop more QBCs, to eliminate all the bottlenecks on existing QBCs so that buses can move quickly and easily, and to invest in a major expansion of the city bus fleet public and private.

I believe that that is a sensible policy for the future. What is not sensible is to follow the DTO strategy and invest several more billions of euros in building more LUAS lines around the city.

No major city can solve its problems with on-street solutions only - whether it be buses or trams.

Dublin is the only capital city in the entire European Union - apart from little Luxembourg - which does not have a metro system.

I firmly believe that traffic will not begin to move freely in Dublin until we have a comprehensive metro system in place, one that is fully integrated with buses, DART and suburban rail. That's how it's done elsewhere and that's how it should be done here.

People say metros are too expensive. They take too long to plan. They take too long to build. I would like to give an example of how a metro system can be built quickly and efficiently when a city has the determination to do it.

There were regional elections in Madrid in May of 1999. One party - the Partido Popular - put forward the idea of a new circular metro line linking five satellite towns to the south of the city. The line was to be called Metrosur and it would be delivered in time for the next regional elections in 2003.

That would seem to us to be a very big political promise. But the promise had credibility because a major programme of metro developments had been completed on time and on budget in the previous four years

The Metrosur would be fully underground. It would be 25 miles long and it would have 40 stations. And it would have interchange points with other rail lines at several locations.

This was an ambitious project by any standards. A metro project of this size, for instance, would be sufficient to provide a comprehensive service for the entire city of Dublin, north and south.

Planning and design of the project began on September 10th, 1999. Actual construction work began on May 23rd, 2000 - eight months later. And the full Metrosur system opened to passengers on April 11th, 2003.

In other words the whole project was taken from conception to completion in less than four years - a remarkable achievement when you think how we do our business here in this country.

And the cost ? Metrosur came in at €46m per kilometre, inclusive of all costs - tunnels, stations, trains, maintenance yards - everything. That means that for about a billion-and-a-half euros we could have an excellent metro system for Dublin, linking the north, south and west of the city.

And yet we were told that a short seven-mile line from the city centre to Dublin Airport would cost five thousand million euros. I didn't accept that and neither did nice Mr. Brennan. It's time we started to learn how things are done in other countries.

The head of the Madrid Metro, Mr Manuel Melis, recently wrote about the huge cost estimates and long time schedules put forward for planning and building metro systems.

He said, and I quote: `In Madrid we believe that any metro can be built and commissioned within 40 months at a cost of no more than €50m per kilometre'.

If we had that kind of attitude in Dublin we could solve the transport problems of our capital city completely and comprehensively within the lifetime of this government.

And let's get away from this argument that metro is unaffordable compared to LUAS. In fact, I would argue that the opposite is the case.

On the basis of the Madrid figures metro is about 50% more expensive than LUAS to build. But a metro system can carry anything up to 24,000 passengers per direction per hour - almost eight times the capacity of LUAS.

This means that in terms of money invested in hourly passenger capacity LUAS is four or five times more expensive than metro.

The present minister inherited LUAS and he has no choice but to complete what was started. But I would strongly suggest to make the move to a metro. It's been shown to be the best option all over Europe and it is the best option for Dublin too.

Hagar you are not alone

Bee

dub45

That's a bit rich coming from a rural dweller and I assume (unless you state otherwise) that you live in a one off house in the middle of nowhere. You expect a bus to pass by your home? It is one-off rural dwellers who are costing the rest of us a fortune. It is estimated that each one-off home is effectively subsidised by the rest of us to the tune of €30K - this covers the additional cost of reaching your house (on top of a hill probably) for municipal services, utility services down to having to run a post office or school for the 10 kids that might want to go. Hell we probably even have to throw in a Bus Eireann route for you. That's not even including the environmental effects ...

Indeed forcibably move everyone to the cities!! And as for all that money wasted on sick people dont get me started:mad: Kill them all as soon as they sneeze - much cheaper all round.

BrianD

Wow Bee what a ramble. I know I went off topic into rural housing policy but your extendended post is an unsubstantiated ramble. The only thing that I do agree with is the massive cost over runs and delays are completely unacceptable. This is the only factor that makes the Luas appear to bad value for money (as opposed to the concept itself). We are paying more for the project than we should.

Unfortunately there is a selfish mindset that imagines that forcing motorists off the road onto public transport will solve traffic problems but as any right thinking individual knows the majority of motorists use their car because they are working in profitable enterprise or are out generating profits paying the wages of the public servants that so far have failed road users miserably.

There is nobody forcing motorists off the road! Where did you get this bunkum from. More alternatives are being offered to the public and this means that routes into the city may also have to shared with other forms of transport. It is the seige mentality of motorists who haven't got the imagination to consider other commuting alternatives that believe that they are being forced off the road.

and yes the majority of motorists that drive through Dublin are attempting to go about their business building profit so that our public servants can be paid

So the man or woman who gets the train, bus and tram isn't contributing much to the world of business. Less enterprising perhaps?

BTW I was not personally attacking Hagar. I believe that our rural and urban planning is a shambles and has led to the transportation problems that we have in the Dublin area. One off housing is selfish and unsustainable in the long run. Having said that it's a debate for another board and I realise it's off topic.

A few years from now we will have the same screw up on the Dublin Port Tunnel if the height is not adjusted.

I though that you have copped that the tunnel height is a non-issue, a red herring raised by the truck industry so they can avoid or delay the fact that they can no longer race their HGV's through the city centre. A small percentage of trucks that only operate in the UK and Ireland won't fit through.

And it is not just cars that will be affected by LUAS. Dublin Bus estimates that the light-rail system is already causing serious disruption to their services even before it is formally commissioned.

So how do they survive on the rest of Europe or Australia? People dying on the street because of trams???!??? Luas is already running a 10min frequency on the Green Line every day. Any problems? People are saying imagine the chaos when it starts. It has started and it is running.

!

Dublin Bus has recently stated that running time on the number 51 route had doubled because of the LUAS works, while journey times on routes 39, 68 and 69 had been seriously impacted

I agree but you are still referring to the construction phase.

I am looking forward to the day when additional lines are tendered out. Perhaps we will see a replication of the original Dublin United Tram network with additional services. Trams are one part of the transport solution for Dublin but lets not repeat the problems of the construction phase. Roll on the future.

BTW it looks like that cars and trams will share James St. from what I can see. Anybody clarify?

dub45

BTW it looks like that cars and trams will share James St. from what I can see. Anybody clarify?

See my post above about the lack of signposting and misleading signs. Absolutely nothing is being done to warn roadusers of this sharing. It is criminal neglect.

BrianD

I wouldn't agree. I have driven on James St a number of times and all though it is a mess it is pretty straightforward driving.

The trams in the centre of road are temporary signs, and are sufficient enough to give guidance to motorists. I haven't noticed any of the permanent warning signs for cyclists here or anywhere else yet.

seamus

Originally posted by Bee
The LUAS is bad value for money supported by folk (apart from Connex) who do not understand that private enterprise needs no traffic congestion so that motorists i.e. business that generates profit, and yes the majority of motorists that drive through Dublin are attempting to go about their business building profit so that our public servants can be paid.

I'm not being pedantic, but that sentence makes no sense.

as any right thinking individual knows the majority of motorists use their car because they are working in profitable enterprise or are out generating profits paying the wages of the public servants that so far have failed road users miserably.

As BrianD said - do you think that people can only make money if they drive cars?? What are you on? Hundreds of thousands of people use the public transport system to get to and from work every week, the don't seem to have any problems "generating profits paying the wages of the public servants".
The majority of traffic does not belong on the road. The bulk of traffic is made up of people driving their kids to school and people driving a few insignificant miles to work. Some people need to drive to make money - carpenters, plumbers, service engineers, delivery men, etc - no-one is suggesting that they should use public transport. They couldn't even if they wanted to. Redefining the road space, and giving more room to public services is aimed at people driving alone in their cars to work - to try and get them to reconsider the wisdom of driving to work. No matter how wide or narrow the streets are, people who need to drive for their job will always be there. But if you offer wider roads, then more people will take their own vehicle instead of public transport. The opposite happens if you narrow the roads. The aim is to get these people off the road and onto public transport (or onto bikes/motorcycles - although these are modes of transport the Government like to pretend don't exist). Any right-thinking individual can see that this is a common sense, but ultimately difficult endeavour, likely to cause hassle for the rest of us, traffic-wise, in the medium term.

The LUAS is the biggest single public transport project in the history of the state. It currentlyl costs somewhere between €700m and €800m depending which government statement you believe. Yep, slightly more than the original quote that came in well under €300m. This is a massive rip off by any standards.

Agreed, but this is a separate issue altogether. Contractors bid with the Government and give low quotes to get the contract, safe in the knowledge that they can increase their costs later on and go over time with little worry of penalties or otherwise. It's an issue in every Government Department, and isn't confined to the LUAS.

Public transport is all about capacity. The LUAS is rubbish a la terms of capacity for the money spent. The project secured government approval on the basis that each line would be able to carry approx. 7,000 passengers per direction per hour.

That's still 7,000 single-person vehicles off the road, per hour. Not to be sniffed at. Despite having lower capacity than busses, it's main problem is reliability. People don't really have a problem with packed public transport, so long as it's reliable. So if it says it'll be here at 0705, it'll be here at 0705. If it says the journey will take 30 minutes, it will take 30 minutes. Busses are still popular, despite a crap service. Ask a hell of a lot of people why they drive instead of taking a bus, and the two answers you'll mostly hear are "They're not reliable enough" and "They're not fast enough". The LUAS solves these two issues, and should hopefully begin to return some trust and credit to CIE.

The cost of a QBC is about one twentieth of that of a LUAS line. It seems clear to me, therefore, that LUAS does not represent good value for money for the taxpayers of the country or the people of Dublin.

The point of the LUAS is to offer an alternative. To get from A to B, in a straight line, and with a more reliable, regular service. Even QBCs can't guarantee that some moron won't park in front of the bus, or that a freak traffic jam won't hold up the whole show. Why do people take the train when one can drive or get a bus across the country? Why don't we just scrap the rail system altogether, and create a countrywide network of QBCs?

You don't have to be a transport engineer (better still don't be a Dublin Transport engineer as it appears to be an oxymoron!) to see that the junction of the M-50 and the N-7 is a mess. Even nice Mr.Brennan accepts that.

It was a mess before the LUAS came in. As before, it's not relevant. The LUAS was the kick up the arse the engineers needed to realise that large roundabouts on high-volume motorway junctions don't work.

The Mad Cow roundabout is about to get even madder. Because - and some people might find this unbelievable - we are going to put two level crossings across two of the slip roads on one of the busiest roundabouts in the country.

The junction will be changed, but it'll be a headache for motorists for a while longer. It's not like the Mad Cow could get any worse. If you don't like it - take the LUAS into town

And it is not just cars that will be affected by LUAS. Dublin Bus estimates that the light-rail system is already causing serious disruption to their services even before it is formally commissioned.

Uh, links, press releases please? I work on Harcourt Street, and the LUAS is constantly going. If anything traffic on Harcourt St at least, has actually improved since the line was completed.

I have friends that work in the emergency services, fancy having a heart attack and being delayed access to hospitals because of DCC's inept traffic engineers?

Seriously? That's one of your arguments?

Dublin Bus has recently stated that running time on the number 51 route had doubled because of the LUAS works, while journey times on routes 39, 68 and 69 had been seriously impacted.

Yes, because of the "works". That's to be expected with any large road-altering project. It's a short-term issue, not a long-term one.

And it's worth pointing out that the people who use these routes live in parts of the city - Clondalkin, Rathcoole, Newcastle, Castleknock and Blanchardstown - will not be able to switch from bus to LUAS because LUAS does not serve their areas at all.

Shocking. It doesn't serve Clontarf, Rathfarnham or Letterkenny either, but these people also have to use the roads (however infrequent) - imagine that! What kind of argument is that? I wouldn't consider Rathcoole or Newcastle part of the "city" by any measure. People commuting from these areas is once again, another issue separate to the LUAS.

Obviously we have to complete the two LUAS lines that are currently under construction. But I think we should draw a line at that stage. Extending the Tallaght line from Connolly the short distance down to the Docklands makes sense. But I do not think that we should embark on any new LUAS ventures.

Why not? I think a short hop line to get you around the city is great. Have you ever used mass transit in other cities? You can take a tram/train to get a 5-minute walk away.

Dublin is the only capital city in the entire European Union - apart from little Luxembourg - which does not have a metro system.

The Government in the 70's ignored public transport in favour of saving money. Now we're all paying for it. Essentially, we have to build an entire public transport infrastructure from scratch, which is what is being done. It's a big job, gigantic in fact. It may be 50 years before Ireland is a transport heaven. There's no point in bitching about a lack of metro. The plans are there, and although I have no faith in DCC's ability to carry them out with the haste and competence required, a plan is better than no plan.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Hagar
Maxheadroom. You have no right to call me an idiot. I take exception to that. It is my understanding that personal abuse is not allowed on the boards.

If you want to disagree with my point of view do so.
Look at what Dadakopf did.
He took me to bits. In a good humoured way.
Fair play to him.
I accept a lot of what he said. Not all, because I believe that the powers-that-be can not see past the next election to plan a real infrastructure for the city and the country as a whole

I particularly like the "hogwash" bit.

Hehe, sorry Hagar, I wasn't attacking you personally, just something you said (a boundary which people find blurry, sometimes ).

MrPudding

I heard an ad on the radio this morning warning cyclist of the danger of getting wheels trapped between the lines and warning cyclist and pedestrians of the dangers of wet tracks.

Better late than never I suppose.

MrP

seamus

Originally posted by MrPudding
I heard an ad on the radio this morning warning cyclist of the danger of getting wheels trapped between the lines and warning cyclist and pedestrians of the dangers of wet tracks.

Better late than never I suppose.

MrP

Pedestrians?Wet tracks? I guess it's a risk, however small.
They should have electrified the tracks, that'll keep people from walking on them!

BrianD

The Metro is more hogwash from Brennan to appease voters. A metro in Dublin? Ridiculous and we could never afford it. Unfortunately, urban planning and development in Dublin has made the provision of a metro almost impossible. Construction of more light rail and the upgrading of existing heavy rail lines is the way forward (a link to the airport from an existing rail line in included in this).

At the end of the day when you examine the debate and commentary about a metro, there is only one line proposed and thats to the airport (and not even to Swords). Hardly the London Underground is it? Perhaps we should all move to the rezoned lands of Nth. County Dublin and we can all park are cars in the Airport and get the Metro to Stephens Green.

Hagar

Who owns all the rezoned land in Nth Dublin?
Let me guess. Hmmmm.. Fianna Fail.....

dub45

Originally posted by BrianD
I wouldn't agree. I have driven on James St a number of times and all though it is a mess it is pretty straightforward driving.

The trams in the centre of road are temporary signs, and are sufficient enough to give guidance to motorists. I haven't noticed any of the permanent warning signs for cyclists here or anywhere else yet.

I dont think you are capable of agreeing with any semblance of a criticism of anything LUAS. I think it is extraordinary that there is no warning that a full lane will be shared between other roadusers and Luas.

BTW it looks like that cars and trams will share James St. from what I can see. Anybody clarify?

And if you had to ask if the lane is bein shared then surely that in itself justifys my criticism. You say you have driven the route and yet you did not know for definite that it was being shared with the Luas!!!! But you consider that to be ok?

BrianD

I have only driven one way (into town) but I have noticed the new road markings that were queried elsewhere on the board. The markings - which look permanent - indicate that that both outbound vehicles and trams will share the same lane from Steevens Lane junction to the hospital. What I am querying is if this will be the final state of affairs or is just while construction work continues on this section.

BrianD

I think it is extraordinary that there is no warning that a full lane will be shared between other roadusers and Luas.

it's a yellow sign with a tram on it!

dub45

Originally posted by BrianD
it's a yellow sign with a tram on it!

That sign in no way indicates that a lane will be shared between trams and traffic it merely indicates the presence of trams and is around quite a bit as far as I can see. Maybe as a motorist you consider that adequate but I am sure lots of motorists would not take that to mean that the lane would be shared with trams.

BrianD

If I see a yellow sign with a deer on it, I expect that there might be deer on the road ahead, if I see one with children I expect that there may be children at play, if I see one with a tram on it I expect trams.

It will be interesting to see how this section of the route works in practice.

parsi

Originally posted by dub45
That sign in no way indicates that a lane will be shared between trams and traffic it merely indicates the presence of trams and is around quite a bit as far as I can see. Maybe as a motorist you consider that adequate but I am sure lots of motorists would not take that to mean that the lane would be shared with trams.

and what about us poor folks coming up from the country - sure 'twill be murhder altogether for d'All Ireland - does the Luas go to Barry's Hotel ?

dub45

Do you not think that motorists are entitled to a clear warning that they will be sharing the road with trams? Particularly as it is not the case in most other parts of the city.

Ironically enough there are signs even though they are misleading on the lane which you have used!!! They state that there are trams in the middle of the road.

I think 'interesting' is the wrong word to use when peoples lives are at stake? It is not an academic excercise we are talking about here.

seamus

Originally posted by dub45
Do you not think that motorists are entitled to a clear warning that they will be sharing the road with trams? Particularly as it is not the case in most other parts of the city.

I don't really see what the big issue is. If the trams or the cars have to cross eachother, the road markings will show you, just like for slip roads, and all other kinds of junctions. You also can't miss the big set of tracks.

I think 'interesting' is the wrong word to use when peoples lives are at stake? It is not an academic excercise we are talking about here.

Well, not really. One thing people seem to think is that trams are like trains. People seem fanatical about "Get out of the way! Stay off the tracks!". They're not like trains at all, they move slowly and can stop on pinhead. The one attitude people seem to have is if you get into the way of a tram, that's it going to keep going. It won't. Think of it like a bus that's just stuck to one route.

Hagar

At present if a bus breaks down or is involved in an accident serious enough that it cannot be moved the following buses can drive around it. What will happen if something similar happens to a tram?

seamus

Originally posted by Hagar
At present if a bus breaks down or is involved in an accident serious enough that it cannot be moved the following buses can drive around it. What will happen if something similar happens to a tram?

Give them a ring there and ask them. I'm sure there are procedures in place for a quick repair/turnaround, since a tram breaking down will essentially cripple or seriously impede an entire line, never mind the traffic.

uberwolf

Originally posted by seamus
Give them a ring there and ask them. I'm sure there are procedures in place for a quick repair/turnaround, since a tram breaking down will essentially cripple or seriously impede an entire line, never mind the traffic.

further to this, there is a reason its called light rail, even a derailment can be quickly sorted out. Relative to standard (heavy?) rail.

Hagar

I accept that the correction of derailments will be faster relative to heavy rail.

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

There is an article and picture on page 11 of the Mirror today, ok not a great paper but what the hell, which shows a derailment exercise in progress. The bottle jacks and bits of wood in use do not look all that promising.
Given the expected frequency of a tram every 10-15 mins is it really likely that wholesale congestion can be avoided?

BrianD

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

The RPA have a derailment assistance contract in place with Irish Rail where their engineers are on call to assist in any derailment.

Yep, all those chocks and bottle jacks are exactly how do they do it. Jack it up, shift it over and pop it back on the tracks. They don't use cranes or the like.

BTW did you see the 9pm RTE news tonight? Some idiot managed to drive up the tracks leading up to the Charlemont bridge. I noticed that he wasn't sticking around to tell of his "horrific ordeal". One of the concerned local residents even thought that the tracks were electrified and that the car could explode!

John R

Originally posted by Hagar
I accept that the correction of derailments will be faster relative to heavy rail.

In other countries that have tram systems I am sure this issue has been addressed and adequate plans are in place. I am not nearly as confident of the planning process here.

There is an article and picture on page 11 of the Mirror today, ok not a great paper but what the hell, which shows a derailment exercise in progress. The bottle jacks and bits of wood in use do not look all that promising.
Given the expected frequency of a tram every 10-15 mins is it really likely that wholesale congestion can be avoided?

This is Dublin we're talking about, wholescale congestion is a daily occourence.
The contorted situations some people are coming up with to pre-blame LUAS for traffic problems, accidents and other assorted problems are laughable. A derailment is a very rare situation on any rail system. By far the most likely cause on tram networks is from third party action, car drivers most likely. The same can be said for total unit failures, there is also the facility for one unit to tow a stricken one in the event of failure.

Traffic incidents causing disruption is not something new to trams. I have lost count of the times I have been stuck in a traffic jam because two motorists were incapable of keeping their vehicles physically seperated. Standard practice now is to leave them in the middle of the road no matter how minor the damage until a Guardai comes to scribble their excuses in a notebook while witnessing the sudden onset of mysterious crippling back pains.

Hagar

I am greatly relieved to hear that there will only be improvements in traffic flow and no extra complications or delays when the Luas starts.

Will I be able to catch a flying pig at the Luas stations as well?

BrianD

Will I be able to catch a flying pig at the Luas stations as well?

Probably not, only guide dogs are allowed on the trams :-)