Newbie advice on bike

Trojan

Hi guys,

We're coming to the end of the rugby season and into the semi-decent cycling weather, so I'm feeling like it's time to get back out cycling again. I'm thinking about a bike upgrade. My current bike is an old reliable POS that noone in their right mind would think about stealing.

I'm looking to upgrade to something that I can use around the city, and that's able to handle the knocks of the dodgy Howth Rd surface and the various kerbs that I jump on my way past stationary traffic - so I'm thinking "mountain bike" rugged. At the same time I'd like to start doing some medium-long distance trips for cardio training.

Can anyone suggest specific make & models and/or suggest a shop where I can get something decent 2nd hand? I know nothing about bikes so any advice however off-topic is welcome.

TIA.
Al.

silverside

Budget?

You can't go far wrong with a Specialized Rockhopper or Hardrock. Trek, Gary Fisher, etc are good makes also. Put slick tires on it for commuting. New - Cycleways are OK and city centre (Parnell ST). A better shop is in Tallaght Village round the corner from the petrol station and they usually have a good range of second hand bikes. . Call out to Tallaght and talk to the guys anyway.

Buy and Sell is also good if you know what you're looking for. I have found good bargains there in the past mostly from people who just never used their bikes - genuiinely, not hot items.

I reckon you will pay 350-400 euro for a good basic mountain bike and double that for one that you would be happy to take offroad. Half those prices though if buying secondhand.

uberwolf

I could lecture at length on this topic. However with my finals approaching I'll keep it brief. Geometry is important to sort out. No matter how good a bike you need it set up to match your needs. Plenty online on this topic I'd say. The slick tires I can't recommend highly enough, cycling will be a completely different experience for you. 'You get what you pay for' is also true.

Let us know what you're looking at in particular and then we can recommend or slate depending

Trojan

Ok, thanks for the feedback so far guys, much appreciated.

Budget: up to about 250 yoyos I'd say I can afford. Maybe finding a good 2nd hand for that price is a better way to go than something new, like silver suggests. I know you guys are mad into your bikes so will probably tell me to spend nothing less than a grand

Needs: I want to get to work and back daily (Howth Road: dodging traffic, hopping kerbs, and dealing with a pot-holed surface). I'm 13 - 14 stone at the best of times so it needs to be fairly robust. I also want to use it to get around town, and do some medium distance (say 30 mile) trips on national roads.

I have no clue about geometry & setup - will have a look online. Please recommend reading if you have links handy.

Thanks.
Al.

Trojan

Another question re: clips - is it possible to get decent pedals with attachable clips? For commuting I probably don't want them, but for longer stuff they'd be great.

silverside

if you are going to be doing long trips its well worth while getting spd pedals.

They need special spd shoes which clip into them, and they take a little getting used to, but they mean you can work on the upstroke as well as the downstroke.

You can get ones with a flat base (or double sided ones) which you can use with normal shoes also.

You can use the 'cage' type pedals where you push your feet in and strap them down, but I don't like them, because its a lot easier to unclip SPD's in a hurry than it is to get your foot out of a cage.

Its hard to explain but ask any bike shop to show you. There are various type of clip-in pedals but SPD's are the standard for mountain bikes.

The ones I have are big and chunky - ideal for off road

http://www.richmondcycles.co.uk/html/pedal_shimano_646.html

but you can get various types.

leeroybrown

As someone who no longer has a bike (grrrr) I'd advise going for a good quality lock.

Also, bear this in mind:

Q: How do you recognise a bicycle with quick release?

A: No saddle or front tyre.

Trojan

What's your thoughts on hybrids? Are they better suited to my purposes? I was having a look at the 2nd hand rack at my local and here's what they were offering:

* Cahill, steel frame mountain bike, set up for commuting/touring (mudguards, carrier). 150 Euro

* Saxon, steel frame hybrid (slicks), ex-rental. 150E

* Claud-Butler, alloy framed hybrid, slicks, ex-rental. 250E. They claimed this was an excellent deal and would be gone tomorrow (although I'm not going to rush into a purchase on the basis of "it's a good deal and I have another buyer lined up"). Edit: this bike was either a "Classic" or a "Legend" as shown here

All had 21 speed STI gears.

Comments?

seamus

More geared towards comfort and travelling rather than training Troj. That is, they're not exactly designed for sprinting into work, or climbing long steep hills, although there's no reason why you can't.

Personally, I wouldn't fancy using one for tackling traffic, but I think there's nothing better than a BMX for hacking through Dublin City traffic, so what do I know?

I'd go for a mountain bike if you're going to be hitting heavy traffic tbh.

Trojan

I knew what would happen as soon as I started learning about bikes... I've shifted my price range to ~400, and am going for a new MTB or "urban" type... here's what I've been looking at:

CB Urban 100 (e349)
CB Chinook (e459)
Raleigh X1 (e487)
Ideal Megisto (e380)
Trek 7100FX (~e430, don't remember exact quote)
Specialized Rockhopper (didn't get price, but everything is expensive in Cycleways Parnell st.)
Specialized Sirrus (e630ish - lovely bike).
Trek 7100FX (~e430, don't remember exact quote)
Trek 4300 (e370 - non-disk)

That last is the one I'm most interested in - it seems a good deal - the dealer was convinced I wouldn't get a better price from anyone else in town, normal price of about e430 for the 4300 claimed.

Pedals: I'd like to get a set of SPDs. Cyclelogical had a set of BBBs that have SPD face and normal pedal face, for about e50 (less bundled with the 4300).

Geometry: I want to set it up for training, so leaning forward. I'm 5'7 so looking for a medium frame.

Tires: someone mentioned slicks. In this weather? I expect to be taking it out in rain a fair bit.

What do you bike geeks think?

Al.

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
I knew what would happen as soon as I started learning about bikes... I've shifted my price range to ~400, and am going for a new MTB or "urban" type... here's what I've been looking at:

CB Urban 100 (e349)
CB Chinook (e459)
Raleigh X1 (e487)
Ideal Megisto (e380)
Trek 7100FX (~e430, don't remember exact quote)
Specialized Rockhopper (didn't get price, but everything is expensive in Cycleways Parnell st.)
Specialized Sirrus (e630ish - lovely bike).
Trek 7100FX (~e430, don't remember exact quote)
Trek 4300 (e370 - non-disk)

Personally, given that list I'd choose a Trek or a Specialized. They have a proven history of decent MTB manufacture.

Pedals: I'd like to get a set of SPDs. Cyclelogical had a set of BBBs that have SPD face and normal pedal face, for about e50 (less bundled with the 4300).

Including the shoes? If not, remember they can be quite expensive, although the hybrid pedal/spds are good in that you can wait a while before getting shoes, or you don't need to stick on special shoes to leg it to the shops.

Geometry: I want to set it up for training, so leaning forward. I'm 5'7 so looking for a medium frame.

I was never one for knowing about geometry tbh. All I know is that you'll be looking for around a 19"-20" frame. It's been a while since I rode a modern bike, but back in the day, you didn't get a bike with front suspension for training unless you were willing to fork out huge cash. Dunno what the story is now.

Tires: someone mentioned slicks. In this weather? I expect to be taking it out in rain a fair bit.

A good pair of slicks shouldn't suffer in the rain, in fact, they should work better. Depending on your own preferences, you can get different width slicks. Personally, I'd be into getting wider slicks, around 1.75"-2", because I don't feel safe on thinner wheels, but they're harder to find locally. If you're really not happy with slicks you can get semi-slicks, which are slick down the middle, but with dirt treading around the edges for cornering. They're designed for riding on solid off-road track, but can be useful on tarmac.
Normal offroad tyres wear down extremly quickly on tarmac, so you'll be replacing them a lot more often if you decide to use them.

Ah, I'm getting in the mood now...won't be long before I'm bike shopping myself...

Trojan

Yeah, I like the Treks most myself. The 4300 has a front suspension... it's not going to be the best out there, so I'm wondering if I'm better off with a rigid fork? How's this for speed/training'?

Not including shoes - yeah I was intending to get the hybrid/SPDs fitted then buy them later.

Yeah, that's the frame size I've been looking at (though maybe "medium" is a better desc cos there's a lot of different style frames, e.g. a 19" compact frame might be a Large for some manufacturers).

ok, I'll have a think about the slicks (and see if I can find anymore info online).

uberwolf

Originally posted by Trojan


ok, I'll have a think about the slicks (and see if I can find anymore info online).

there provide more grip than 'knobbly' tyres on tarmac because you have more rubber in contact with the ground. So they're safer like that. They are also faster because they're profile is slighter, better transfer of momentum because the knobs on standard tyres bend under the pressure and you lose out that way. I can picture the bike I'd put u on, but not sure how I'd find a pic, tisn't bog standard. I'll have a look around.

Trojan

Ross - I think the 19.5 should be ok - I tried a 17.5 (Trek 7100) and it did feel a bit on the small side. My current is 20" so maybe that's influencing me.

4300 link.

uberwolf: sounds good, but what about during wet weather? Do they provide the same grip, or do will I end up like Takuma Sato in a Jordan in the wet?

uberwolf

you have more rubber in contact with the ground, ergo more grip. They're not bald as such, they have mouldsslick slick nother choice, maybe better

I've no experience with either of those tires, although Specialized tryes have impressed me in the past.

* I used to be sponsored by specialzed but stand to gain nothing from this reccomendation.

parasite

I got a 4300 for 400 second hand, the shops here in cork were selling new ones for 500, are you sure it's not last year's model ? still sounds like a good deal
however, the RST forks really are a pos, they've pretty much seized up on me ...must get that fixed actually
overall good solid bike for bombing around

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
4300 link.

Geometry doesn't seem great for training, but can be easily changed. Maybe the shop would replace it for you - the stem has a very high angle, as do the bars. Ideally you want a stem with 3° rise or less.

Trojan

K, from calling around I'm getting influenced toward the smaller frame size (17.5-18).

Here's the current spec and price:

2004 Trek 4300, Non-disk option, 17.5"
RRP 435 EUR, cash-price: 370 EUR

Mods:

swap knobbly tires for good quality slicks (Specialized Fatboys or similar) FREE

replace pedals with dual purpose SPDs (BBB “Dual-Choice”) RRP 59 cash 40 EUR

Also included: Front & Rear Lights, Heavy Duty Chain Lock – 40 EUR

Total: 450 EUR

uberwolf

someone esle stop me here, but I reckon a suspension fork is a waste for the purposes here. unless its a 'quality' bike a crap fork is supplied and used to distract from other things that would be better spent on...

Trojan

Hi uberwolf,

All feedback welcome obviously. Can you give me more detail on why you think it's a waste? Because the suspension (InSync 323) is probably not the best? (I don't expect top of the line for 370eur).

Or is your objection that I won't need the fork in day to day use? I haven't riden fork-suspension before (or any for that matter), but I am a heavy rider and I commute similar to the way some people go trail biking I'm sure Suspension sounds like a good thing to my wrists (and for the rims).

Here's a feedback/review on the 4300 - it gets slammed by some of the hardcore trail bikers, but gets a lot of good reviews too, and lots of "value for money" type comments which is good seeing as this is the top of my budget.

The 4300 isn't in stock until tomorrow week, so I've a while to change my mind - please let me know what you guys think.

Al.

seamus

Front sus is handy on the wrists, especially for our potholed roads, but you sacrifice some stability in your cornering. It's also a massive drain on power when sprinting, and climbing hills. On every push, the forks compress, stealing some of your energy. It's a bit catch-22, in that you'd be better off waiting until you've done a bit of training before you can afford to lose that extra energy, but your wrists may ache a little more whie you do.

Also, you obviously have the cost, in that suspension is another thing that will need servicing. Rigid forks never require servicing.

Trojan

Cost-wise, I can deal with that I guess, especially if I'm using the bike enough.

Is there much power loss with forks tightened as far as they go? I guess that depends on the fork quality, right?

Edit: not sure how much I need the extra training - taking my current ride 6 or 7 miles with only 2 working gears has me in pretty decent shape (rugby aside)

Actually, I meant to ask - it's pretty accepted that one should keep a good spinning cadence using low gearing, rather than powering through obstacles (hills/wind/acceleration). I find that the slower more poweful cadence is more effective at building leg strength than the faster, less energetic (which is better for cardio fitness). More of a "purpose of training" type issue, but I'll be using the bike to increase quad (actually all leg) strength as well as the cardio workouts so I wanted to ask about this. Any comments?

And thanks for all the help so far guys, I've learned a lot about bikes this week

silverside

i didnt notice much power loss with just front sus. There is a small loss when pulling away from lights. Rear sus makes a much bigger difference to speed esp when sprinting.

I think the comfort factor more than makes up for any slight loss of speed - if you are cruising when commuting, you don't really lose any speed.

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
Is there much power loss with forks tightened as far as they go? I guess that depends on the fork quality, right?

Obviously it helps, but only a few forks allow you to lock them completely. When you're a big guy like us though, you usually have it pretty high just to get it to work normally

i didnt notice much power loss with just front sus. There is a small loss when pulling away from lights. Rear sus makes a much bigger difference to speed esp when sprinting.

Yeah, rear sus has a much worse effect, which is why it should really only be used for downhill.

Trojan

Originally posted by Trojan

Edit: not sure how much I need the extra training - taking my current ride 6 or 7 miles with only 2 working gears has me in pretty decent shape (rugby aside)

My current working gears are 42/15 and 34/15 btw (yeah, I know that's not the best way to describe gears, but I don't know enough about Sheldons "Gain Ratio" yet and it's probably very non-standard anyway).

Makes for a good workout going uphill steep I tell ya

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
Actually, I meant to ask - it's pretty accepted that one should keep a good spinning cadence using low gearing, rather than powering through obstacles (hills/wind/acceleration). I find that the slower more poweful cadence is more effective at building leg strength than the faster, less energetic (which is better for cardio fitness). More of a "purpose of training" type issue, but I'll be using the bike to increase quad (actually all leg) strength as well as the cardio workouts so I wanted to ask about this. Any comments?

Yeah, studies show that sprinting, and "powering through" are more effective for building muscle, whereas steady rythymic cycling is better cardiovascular and stamina exercise. So any session should consist of a little of both, like any workout.

uberwolf

Its all to do with opportunity cost, getting the forks means you lose out on better wheels, gears, frame or whatever. Meanwhile at that price range the forks will most likely be brutal, and TBH you're only looking to ride on the road anyway and on fat tires potholes or bumps are grand anyway, playing with tyre pressure is more a efficent way of dealing with the vibrations. Buy a pair of cycling gloves.

decent rims will deal with an awful lot of crap. My hack bikes wheels are grand after two years of bunny hopping on to the paths. The frame however has finally cracked. Its my third frame to break and I've never broken a wheel.



btw gearing ratio is to me is what binary is to seamus(amongst others) its currency is good around here

I reckon the best thing for it is one of these

paulj13

Surly the forks are a redundant issue in the purchase of this bike, no? I cycle shop is surly not going to replace the manufactures forks with a standard pair and then give you something off the price of the trouble. Or am I mistake?

uberwolf

they may do. Or you can look at bikes without the suspension.

paulj13

Related to Trojan’s original mail I am also looking to buy a bike. However, I need to stick within my budget of €250 and can’t really go much above this. With that in mind would anyone have any suggestions as to what make or models I would be thinking about with this price range?

One that struck my interest without any major investigation was the sliver fox by Muddyfox. Here the details from one of the sites selling it so forgive any over the top sales jargon

• 7005 alloy hardtail and 'mono stay' frame.
• Mega oversize 'teardrop tubing.'
• Bigfoot tig welded active suspension forks.
• Shimano 18 speed gears with microshift twist levers.
• Alloy rims.
• Kenda 2.1 'Supergrip' ATB tyres.
• Front disc brake and rear V brake.
• Colour: polished alloy
• To suit inside leg measurement 30 to 36in.

It’s currently around €249 in….wait for it…..Argos, so obviously I’m a little sceptical of the quality. Should I avoid it like the plague or does it seem like a decent enough buy for the price. Any help greatly appreciated and sorry if this is too basic a question for the forum.

uberwolf

Originally posted by paulj13

It’s currently around €249 in….wait for it…..Argos, so obviously I’m a little sceptical of the quality. Should I avoid it like the plague or does it seem like a decent enough buy for the price.

TBH I don't think you'll find too much differnce between bikes at that kind of money. The difference is where you but it. Argos prob don't have experienced mechanics in store and would be a pain in the hole to try and get problems sorted out with. I'd try your local stores and see what they have to offer, don't tell them your budget and go in see what they have in stock and what they'll do for you... at they very least there should be a free service after X months.

seamus

Originally posted by paulj13

One that struck my interest without any major investigation was the sliver fox by Muddyfox. Here the details from one of the sites selling it so forgive any over the top sales jargon.

Does it look anything like this:
http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=1751&productId=95499

TBH, most of the big manufacturers make entry-level bikes. At your price range, things like front and rear suspension will either be a) A big pile of dogs turds, or b)removing cash from somewhere else on the bike. Things like disc brakes will be the same.

Go for a fully rigid, 21 or 24 speed bike, with as much chromoly or aluminium in the frame as you can find. A good frame is a basis for upgrading. The most expensive and incompatible part of any bike to upgrade is the frame. You're better off upgrading components bit by bit.

paulj13

Seamus

I’m in told agreement. However finding one is very difficult and most entry level ones seem to try and entice the mammy’s and Daddy’s with the cheap bells and whistles like front suspension crap.

The actually bike in question only had front fork suspension and can be seen here:

http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?storeId=10001&catalogId=1001&langId=-1&searchTerms=3303395

I would ideally like to go of a fully aluminium rigid frame but I’m nor sure if one exists inside my price range, or do they???? Answers on a postcard please.

seamus

Originally posted by paulj13
I would ideally like to go of a fully aluminium rigid frame but I’m nor sure if one exists inside my price range, or do they???? Answers on a postcard please.

3 good examples:
http://www.gtbikes.com/mountain/catalog/detail.php?id=726
http://www.trekbike.co.uk/bikes/2004/mountain/hardtail_recreational/3500.php
http://www.schwinnbike.com/products/bikes_detail.php?id=282

*Almost* in your price range

paulj13

Thanks Seamus great info

I think the GT and the Schwinn seem to be the way to go (depednign on the Euro price of course). I'm leading towords the Schwinn from what I've reseached.

Does anyone know shops in Dublin (or Newry/Belfact for that matter) that stock both of these?

Kind Regards,

seamus

The Cycle Superstore in Tallaght stocked schwinns when I last checked. www.cyclesuperstore.ie
If not, these guys import them:
http://www.moorelarge.co.uk/
So you could give them a bell and ask if they supply to anyone in Ireland

Most good shops will stock some GTs....

Trojan

Yeah Paul, I understand your quandry - it's almost impossible to find a half-decent bike at that price range - when I started looking at new bikes instead of 2nd hand I immediately realised I had to up my budget 200E more.

That said, from the links seamus posted the 2004 GT Aggressor doesn't look bad and 179.99 STG comes out about 268.620 EUR, you might be able to find somewhere here selling for around that price.

--

Uber - re: suspension fork, I'm going to have a test ride on the 4300 today and see how it goes. I'm pretty happy with all the other components on the bike, and it beats the entry level Hardrock (at 399E) on pretty much every spec - it's more comparable to the mid-range Specialized, which are at about 6-700.

Got my 24/15 working with a little effort (pushing derailer with my foot ) so now I can cycle along Clontarf coast against that nasty wind we've had lately! Thing is when I'm in 42/15 I have to hold the gear shift in place with my thumb otherwise it drops back to 34/15! I need a new bike!

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
Got my 24/15 working with a little effort (pushing derailer with my foot ) so now I can cycle along Clontarf coast against that nasty wind we've had lately! Thing is when I'm in 42/15 I have to hold the gear shift in place with my thumb otherwise it drops back to 34/15! I need a new bike!

Easily fixed

Trojan

I put a deposit down yesterday for the 4300. Here's what I'm gettting:

4300 (non-disk)
Continental Sport Contact slicks
BBB Dual Choice spds

That lot is ~440. I'll probably spend another 60 in there on LEDs, a decent lock and a water cage.

Final question: should I ask the guys to replace the quick release mechanisms with allen-key or nuts? Comments on that?

Thanks for all the help and comments
particularly to seamus, uberwolf, silverside & bedlam (who I've been annoying on irc)

seamus

Originally posted by Trojan
Final question: should I ask the guys to replace the quick release mechanisms with allen-key or nuts? Comments on that?

That's purely up to yourself. If you're going to be leaving it in an open place for remotely long periods of time, I'd advise it.

You can get Allen-key replacements for them quite cheap IIRC. It's a trivial replacement you can (and should) do yourself. Quick release levers are independent of the hub mechanism, so there's no bearings, grease or nuts to mess about with, it's a simple as sliding the quick release bar out, and sliding the replacement bar in.