Child Slapping

Hobart

Originally posted by Typedef
Actually Hobart you're right.

It would be much better to cling to our pig ignorant drunken Mick image for fear as being castigated as part of the minorty of Liberal, Gay loving Americans.

First it's marriage, then next thing you know.... the vote!!

Well said.

Why not change the word "our" to the word "my" and re-read what you have typed.

Typedef

Very drole Hobart.

I don't drink... not that, that's in any way relevant.

I think gays should be let marry to FYI.

Does that make me gay, and, do you really want to find out?

Boston

Originally posted by Typedef
One might also say that making underage children work in factories is 'ok' as long as you are elder and related to that child and you "don't" overexploit them.

My father worked since the age of 13 full time, as did many others in this country. I worked every summer since I was 12, with my father on building sites. No only did it do me no harm it also kept we out of allot of trouble, Thought me the value of money, Responsiblity for my own action, several skills, and helped direct my life. No if a social worker knew my father was talking his son with him onto sites what do you think the result would have been?

Draupnir

Anyone who cant tell the difference between a parent kickin the **** out of there kid and a parent givin the a clout to put them in their place isnt fit to be a parent.

Every child needs a slap at some stage in their life. Of all the children I have known I have noticed that the majority of kids who get the softly softly "talk about the problem" treatment turn into little assholes who know they can get away with murder. The fear of a clatter in the head or a slap on the arse from your Ma in front of your friends is usually enough to sort a kid out. Ive coached kids for 7 years with my local Soccer team, as part of soccer schools aswell and also volunteered at my local Scouts hall. Ive yet to meet a kid who didnt benefit from a slap on the arse or the threat of one.

Seraphina

my dad has an extremely short temper (something which i've unfortunately inherited) and slapped me regularly, tbh i probably deserved it, i was an obnoxious little ****, but i never learned my lesson or thought about why he slapped me. i screamed abuse at him when he wasn't around and resented him for years.
as i got older the slaps caused more rage and resentment because they were humiliating and frustrating because i could do nothing. i eventually began hitting back which usually ended up in me being knocked to the floor.
last few times he's raised his hand to be i've taken the slaps and left the house for a few days. he's always apologetic afterwards but thats irrelavent.
for some kids when a slap is the ultimate punishment it might work, but when used on a regular basis it just breeds resentment and hatred.

Sarky

My two cents:

Kids are very self centred until a certain age, and trying to explain why pushing little Jimmy in the mud and nicking his sweets is frowned upon by society in general won't be very effective. What does the child care? He's got all he needs, PLUS a new bag of sweets! There needs to be at least some maturity and sense of others being people too before discussion will work.

I got many a slap on the backside with the wooden spoon (which seems by this thread to be a near-universal symbol of unpleasent consequences to most posters here...) and clips round the ear. That's not because my parents were sadists, it's because I was an utter horror to them as I grew up. There was barely anything I didn't try to get away with, stuffing magazines in the toilet, emptying entire tubes of toothpaste and shampoo into a sleeping bag, running across the busy road, stealing sweets from the shop, you name it, I tried it.

If it had stopped there, I'd probably have just put the timing of the two actions (doing something naughty and getting a smack) down to coincidence, and I'd be behind bars by now. But my parents also took the time to explain what was going on. It may have been a lengthy speech on what happens when a car hits you at speed and why running across the road without looking is dangerous, or it may have been a quick "No! That's bold!", but they got the message across. It was wrong to do some things, and often there were very good reasons for their being wrong.There's no way in hell any of those smacks were capable of lasting physical damage, but a ding on the ear bloody hurts, and it certainly made me think about whether I really wanted to run the risk of getting another clip on the ear for doing something that, as was patiently explained to me already, is wrong.

When I was old enough to recognise that I wasn't the centre of the universe, they used explanations along the lines of "How would you feel if it happened to you?", and slaps eventually became a thing of the past.

When I was older still and started demanding certain privileges (I would have called them rights, I'm sure), taking away those privileges was much worse than a stinging ear. Being stuck in your room with nothing to do for the day only made me bored and resentful, and there was an AWFUL lot of friction between me and my parents from about the age of 10. Looking back, I think I might almost have preferred the wooden spoon- It was a short, sharp punishment that quickly focused your attention, not a long, vague grounding where your mind was turned to cheese from boredom. And you know what they say about idle hands.

Where am I going with this now? Let's see. I'm proud of how I turned out, and so are my parents. I'm a law-abiding, responsible person who dislikes violence and lack of discipline. And I owe it to how I was brought up, a healthy mix of fear of The Wooden Spoon followed by knowledge of why some actions are wrong. That's the key, you see: I think that slaps won't disipline a child for long on their own, and neither will just explaining the error of their ways. The two have to work together. Neither is the be-all and end-all.

MrPudding

What Sarky said.

This is pretty much how I raise my kids. I have a 5 year old girl, Seraphine, and a 15 month old boy, Loic. Seraphine does not get smacked anymore. When she was small she would get a smack on the bum. Once she got to an age where she could be reasoned with and understood the value of the priviliges she had and that they could be removed there was no longer a need to smack her bum.

Loic, on the other hand, cannot be reasoned with. He does not unterstand when you say " bad boy you not going to play outside today." It means nothing to him. So, if he is bad he gets a smack on his nappy clad bum. Does this hurt him? No. He is wearing a nappy, he does not feel it. It is the action of the smack that tells him you are displeased. The punishment does not have to hurt to be effective. Once he can be reasoned with and once he learns the value of thing that can be taken away from him he will no longer be smacked.

For me once the kid get to a certain age positive and negative re-enforcement are the way forward. In the long term they are, I feel, more effective. At the same time I hold the smack on the bum in reserve for really bad behaviour where an impression needs to be made immediatly.

As a child I got some serious smackings, I would never do this to my children. Some of you from the sounds of it have had even worse experiences. This does not, howerver, mean smacking a kid is wrong. Beating the living sh1t out of a kid is wrong but giving one a smack on the nappy is not.

Anyway that is my 2cents as someone who actually has kids and is trying to bring them up in a responsible way to be decent human beings.

MrP

vibe666

ditto to what Sarky said too. I had poretty much the same upbringing and fully intend to extend that to my kids (if and when needed of course).

all the people saying corporal punishment is wrong should open their eyes just a little bit to the state of things as a result of the tree hugging hippy attitude towards parenting that developed in the 60's and 70's and the total lack of respect for authority figures that has been widespread since the 80's and 90's as a result.

less dicipline (as much as you might hate the idea of smacking a child) leads to more anarchy, and it all starts at the beginning of a childs developement, and snowballs, until you have 10 year old gangs mugging old ladies for their pension to fund their scag addictions. the word consequences has ceased to mean anything for most kids today and as a such the rest of society has to take a beating for them, and quite often by them as a result.

we reap what we sow.

Jam

I too, was wary of the dreaded wooden spoon , which was used perhaps half a dozen times. I clearly remember one usage was the result of using the ornimental baseball bat as, well, a bat. I hit rocks with it. That wooden-spoon didn't do me any harm either. I have to wonder though, were these wooden spoons handed out to new mothers as they left the hospital? 'Here's your completmentary wooden spoon.'

Hobart

Originally posted by Typedef
Very drole Hobart.

I'm not trying to be, as you put it, drole. I simply object to you commenting on what you think may or may not be my "image". You are more than welcome to say that your views are pig-ignorant etc..... but not mine, as you don't seem to have an understanding of what mine are.

I don't drink... not that, that's in any way relevant.

If it is not relevant, why quote it then? I don't cycle a bike, not that, that's in any way relevant.

I think gays should be let marry to FYI.

I think your missing an o.

Does that make me gay, and, do you really want to find out?

Ahhh... Did'nt take you long did it? What next, the standard latin phrase followed by a link to some lesbian fantasy of yours? :rolleyes:

amp

STFU! Stop commenting on other peoples images or gay marriage or whatever the hell Typedef and Hobart are on about. This thread is about Child Slapping so, yes folks you've guessed it; it's time to GET BACK ON TOPIC!

Any reply to this warning will result in an immediate temp ban.

dr_manhattan

vibe666

all the people saying corporal punishment is wrong should open their eyes just a little bit to the state of things as a result of the tree hugging hippy attitude towards parenting that developed in the 60's and 70's and the total lack of respect for authority figures that has been widespread since the 80's and 90's as a result.

You know, diatribes like this just form the old facts out of mid air, hmm?

So the 60s and 70s, which contained FAR more rebellious behaviour than the 80s and 90s, and far less respect for authority, came from where, exactly...?

IF your logic works (which it doesn't) then surely the authoritarian parenting of the 40s and 50s, the war years and the knuckling down, the utter glorification of authority and order, actually *caused* the "tree hugging" rebellion of the 60s and 70s. Which in turn caused the general breakdown of society which you speak of in the 80s and 90s. Which leaves us here, in utter social chaos, fighting over petrol, in 2004.

Oh wait, that's right, it doesn't.

And as for your usual claptrap about it all leading to selling scag, if you can't speak factually and in sensible terms, why bother: couldm you please supply examples of kids who were spared a slap, and went on to deal heroin? Or else just leave it with the hyperbole?

I mean, wierd thing is that this thread is supposed to be about CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. Which is nothing to do with parents or kids, it's to do with PUNISHING PEOPLE WITH PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

I mean, earlier someone asked when punishment becomes assault, and the reply given was along the lines of "later when they become an adult and can be punished by the law" - now, my understanding of the question is actually that a *parent*, being an *adult* is always eligible for an assault charge. However, all the hypothetical violence here seems to be directed towards these mystery monster children that everyone suffers so much by.

Oh and Boston, the years on the building sites when you should have been in school? It shows in your attitudes ;-)

however, given that you've spoken about college a few times, I suspect that in fact you just helped your da on the building sites on weekends. Because a social worker *would* have found out if you'd missed school to work for your da... and you wouldn't have made college with an education that finished at 12, to the best of my knowledge.

Silent Bob

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
I mean, wierd thing is that this thread is supposed to be about CORPORAL PUNISHMENT. Which is nothing to do with parents or kids, it's to do with PUNISHING PEOPLE WITH PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

I think you meant this thread.

The one we're in now is about slapping a child. And it has to be said that (and this comes from a sister of mine who studied psychology in college) there are studies out there that show that below a certain age a child cannot respond properly to reason, they just aren't developed enough. A light tap intended more to shock than hurt is a far more effective disciplinary tool than taking away privileges that they probably don't even notice when they're gone.

That said it is very hard to legally allow such a 'light tap' without opening the doors for all sorts of child-beating shenanigans. Like you said, no-one is going to report anybody for a light tap.

edit: I wish I could spell proper, loike

weemcd

http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html

that is all

LoneGunM@n

As most people have already said, growing up I was given a few slaps by my mam [my dad never hit me] for being a little sh!t & I believe rightly deserved too ... but I was always given out to first (i.e. first warning) followed by a slap if I kept it up. I do believe that these slaps, though few and far between, did me no harm.

I hope that I never have to slap my future children as I always believed that a man should never hit a child [or a woman] ... but I also believe that the good cop, bad cop routine that would result (i.e. dad gives out & mam slaps) is the worst form of parenting that there is ... so slapping for me would always be considered a last resort.

Whilst I agree with some of the points the no to slapping side have given [mainly those being where some people have a problem seeing where a slap ends and assault begins], I would like to pose a real situation (I have seen it happen) to you, as I'd like to see what you would suggest, because if my kids turn out like this I'll be tearing my hair out!

My Aunt has 3 children, 2 of which are boys [who are complete monsters]!! From watching the parents in action, I cannot fault anything that they've done, bar 1 thing!! When the boys are bold, the parents give out to them & then explain to them why they are being given out too. The childrens' carrying on goes on for a while, then the parents decide that enough is enough & ground them, telling them to go to their rooms. The boys refuse to go to their rooms, so the father trys to lead them to their rooms, at which time they start biting, punching, kicking and screaming abuse at him. I have never seen them being slapped by either parent.

So here is my question, what would you do?

dr_manhattan

What are the ages involved, would be my first question -

but generally speaking my reply would be that I'm not saying that hitting kids is absolutely wrong in every circumstance: I'm just reacting to an assertion that a woman being reported for kicking and beating her kids in public amounts to a "police state".

I'm curious about this example though, so do please answer my question above and I'll try and answer.

meanwhile, apologies, and thanks silent bob. I got the wrong thtead earlier ;-)

I think the most important thing to remember is that giving a kid a smack (i.e. a ritual designed to sting and reprimand and remind) is very different to kicking the **** out of your kids. I think most of the smacking described here goes into the former category, but i think the news article is definitely the latter.

And I'm happy with a situation where the former happens, but the latter is punished legally. I don't think it's the state's job to interfere in every element of social behaviour, just the dangerous ones.

LoneGunM@n

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
What are the ages involved, would be my first question

Sorry about that ... another example of thinking something & my fingers ignoring it

They are 8 and 12 (I think) ... maybe a bit younger :dunno:

martarg

My Aunt has 3 children, 2 of which are boys [who are complete monsters]!! From watching the parents in action, I cannot fault anything that they've done, bar 1 thing!! When the boys are bold, the parents give out to them & then explain to them why they are being given out too. The childrens' carrying on goes on for a while, then the parents decide that enough is enough & ground them, telling them to go to their rooms. The boys refuse to go to their rooms, so the father trys to lead them to their rooms, at which time they start biting, punching, kicking and screaming abuse at him. I have never seen them being slapped by either parent.

Well, I believe in this case the parents have allowed their kids to go too far. Maybe this is a case of a good slap in time saves nine? :dunno: I don’t know what I would do at this stage, but one thing is certain, I would never (knowingly) let things get to the point were my kids would be the ones hitting me. Those kids do not respect their parents, and it is impossible to discipline someone who doesn’t respect you. I also think it is pretty telling that the father actually finds it necessary to physically lead the children to their rooms. I don’t know how that would work, if they have refused to obey in the first place.... So first thing, perhaps let those children know that hitting a parent is a capital offence, and find the toughest possible form of (non-physical) punishment for it, according to the children’s weak spots... no more telly and videogames, household chores instead? On the other hand, perhaps a slap at this point would be shocking enough to redefine the power relations within the family, but I don’t really know, it depends a lot on the particular situation and the people involved... it would also take a little of psychology work to know the kids’ motivations and the way to deal with them...

Boston

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Oh and Boston, the years on the building sites when you should have been in school? It shows in your attitudes ;-)

however, given that you've spoken about college a few times, I suspect that in fact you just helped your da on the building sites on weekends. Because a social worker *would* have found out if you'd missed school to work for your da... and you wouldn't have made college with an education that finished at 12, to the best of my knowledge.

What attitude? Anyway yea just the summers.

LoneGunM@n

Originally posted by martarg
Well, I believe in this case the parents have allowed their kids to go too far. Maybe this is a case of a good slap in time saves nine? I don’t know what I would do at this stage, but one thing is certain, I would never (knowingly) let things get to the point were my kids would be the ones hitting me. Those kids do not respect their parents, and it is impossible to discipline someone who doesn’t respect you. I also think it is pretty telling that the father actually finds it necessary to physically lead the children to their rooms. I don’t know how that would work, if they have refused to obey in the first place.... So first thing, perhaps let those children know that hitting a parent is a capital offence, and find the toughest possible form of (non-physical) punishment for it, according to the children’s weak spots... no more telly and videogames, household chores instead? On the other hand, perhaps a slap at this point would be shocking enough to redefine the power relations within the family, but I don’t really know, it depends a lot on the particular situation and the people involved... it would also take a little of psychology work to know the kids’ motivations and the way to deal with them...

I agree with you on all the points raised ... As far as I'm concerned, the parents allowed it to get to this stage ... In relation to my original point

From watching the parents in action, I cannot fault anything that they've done, bar 1 thing!!

the 1 thing would have been a slap!

BigEejit

I have a little girl who is 2 and a half .... if she does something bad you can tell her that its bold and usually she'll stop doing it. That works 9/10's of the time. Some days she is contrary and she may continue (e.g. stamping food into the carpet or other OTT behaviour.... )

My wife and I differ here .... my wife will give out to her or talk to her and maybe remove the source of the problems and continue like this (usually ending up giving the child a snack or something to divert her), this can go on for bloody ages and at the end of it the child may do the same thing again ... I think the long talk etc gives too much time and the child will forget that such and such a thing is wrong..... in other words, you cant reason with a 2 1/2 year old.
I give a warning and if it still happening then I give a single slap on the bum, and she still wears a nappy so it wont hurt at all. Not too hard, but not too soft either. Thats the end of it. The bad behaviour stops right there. I've done it twice (6 months apart).

In the last couple of months people have commented how much better behaved the child is when she is in my company compared to when she is in my wifes company only ... it is not fear I think, when the child gets into unsure situations she always runs to me for comfort, when the two of us (my wife and I) are sitting on the couch she climbs into my lap always. I think it is respect. I do not aim to hurt the child, but it works where the tree-hugging-hippy thing would not .....

And before people get their knickers in a twist and start flaming me for slapping a 2 year old on the nappy, state if you have children - some of the most belligerent posters here would appear to not have children, I think that such people have a very rosy idea of what parenthood should be all about ... good luck with that. You'll find reality quite different.

Finally, I'll say again - you cant reason with a 2 1/2 year old ....