The Mega **Management Company** thread

redspider

RainyDay wrote:

Many congratulations - Sounds like you got a great result. This would make a great case study, if you were able to write it up in more detail - I'd bet some of the papers would be interested.

If any of the journo's are reading this, I would be more than willing to give them all the details they need to write up a case study. We (the Member Management Company) have in the last year eventually gotten around (ie: it took a new active cmte/directors) to kicking out our so-called "Managing" Agents. I have plenty of gorey details that is bound to make some good copy and there are many thousands, 10's of thousands in Dublin alone who are or have been disgruntled Members/Owners and are interested in this topic being voiced.

redspider

havana

I would be interested to hear from people what their complexes yearly ESB charges are. I saw one post - about a year back - which was €5500 for a 63 apt, 3 block complex.

We have been charged a whopping €13000 for the year ahead for a 2 block complex with about 40 apts. This seems very high to me.

The_Conductor

havana wrote:

I would be interested to hear from people what their complexes yearly ESB charges are. I saw one post - about a year back - which was €5500 for a 63 apt, 3 block complex.

We have been charged a whopping €13000 for the year ahead for a 2 block complex with about 40 apts. This seems very high to me.

Eh..........

What the hell- why are you being quoted such a ridiculous amount?
We have 23 apartments in 2 units and the management company are billed in a bimonthly bill much as a domestic bill is. I have the bill for the 2 months from the 13th August to the 11th Oct here in front of me and it comes to a total of 49.80
Thats forty nine Euro and eighty cents. Our total bill last year came to 508.24 (we tend to spend a lot more in the winter than in the summer time- security lighting etc are on for longer periods of time.

Seriously- do an audit of all your electrical appliances and try to calculate your electricity usage. The management company will also have a electrical meter on the complex, just like any resident. Take meter readings. Our electricty as a business is even cheaper than domestic electricity (despite our low usage)- but round it up to say 12.5c per unit and work out the costs from you meter readings. Does it add up?

13 grand is a lot of electricity- I'd be extremely curious as to what equipment you are using that would put such a massive drain on power- I'd hazzard a guess that its quite a bit too high to have grounding in the realms of possibilities.....

havana

There are no windows in the blocks outside the apts. So the lights are on 24/7. And there is a lift in both blocks, an electric pedestrian gate and car park gates and lights. Aparently they did do an audit- it was originally quoted at 18,000!!! We have new agents now so maybe things will change but services charges are already paid for this year.

The_Conductor

We have halogen lights along with regular florescent lighting in the carpark (which is about 50 parking spaces), an electric pedestrian gate and an electric main gate, along with security barrier and an electric ramp. The only thing you have that we do not have are the lifts.....

It just seems like a highly improbable bill for electricity.....
The fact that simply changing agents reduced it from 18 grand to 13 grand surely tells you something? Seriously- I would recommend getting a key and taking meter readings for a forthnight (at random- this time of the year is about average use wise) and multiplying by 26.09 to get a rough idea of the number of units you use annually- and multiply this by 0.125 for a rough idea of the cost..... Until you do a little number crunching yourself and have the raw data in front of you- you are taking someone else's word for fact. Most of the electricity cupboards use a regular triangular key- any pliers will open it. Don't fiddle with anything- take the reading, close up the box after you- and take a second reading in exactly two weeks time. I think you will be in for a very pleasant surprise when you actually work out the cost of the electricity.....

havana

Thanks. It was actually the previous agents that got the audit done, but only after we kicked up a fuss.

Unfortunatly this is only one of many many problems!!!

Anyway, thanks again. Will look into taking readings.

Ardent

Came across the AGM minutes last night. One part I want to share:

Resignation & Appointment of Director
The company's Memo & Articles outline the procedure with regard to the resignation of existing directors. The existing directors are associated to the developer, Danninger Limited. The appointment of owner/directors will not arise until those currently in place opt to resign. That will not happen until all units (including car spaces) have been sold. Three units and 42 car spaces remained unsold.

Unbelieveable. They're trying to cover all the angles. What do you do?

grey wolf

Anyone out there the owner of an apartment in either Fernleigh or Annfield?
I own a 2 bed apt in Fernleigh and this year got a bill from Wyse prop mgt for
a whopping euro1800.(1100 2004).I got hold of a bill for a duplex in Annfield(same management company).The duplex is larger than mine and the bill came to approx euro 600.
Both bills have three charges as follows-all from Fernleigh management Company run by Wyse.

Fernleigh Annfield
Service charge all 387 387
Service charge apt 1273 24(yes 24 for a duplex)
Insurance 174 205(larger property).

Basically,my apartment charge is over FIFTY times more,than the Annfield charge.Anyone got similar figures for comparison,particularly anyone with an apartment in Annfield with common internal areas etc.

Borzoi

grey wolf wrote:

Fernleigh Annfield
Service charge all 387 387
Service charge apt 1273 24(yes 24 for a duplex)
Insurance 174 205(larger property).

Basically,my apartment charge is over FIFTY times more,than the Annfield charge.Anyone got similar figures for comparison,particularly anyone with an apartment in Annfield with common internal areas etc.

To be clear, there is no difference betwwen the charges in the Annfield part of the estate compared to the Fernleigh part. The difference is because you are comparing an own door duplex to an apartment.

I'll PM you grey wolf with a bit more info on the general situation

The_Conductor

Hmmm- what is the reason for having a difference in an own door duplex and constituent apartments? In our complex we charge exactly the same (but are proposing a 40% rebate for owner-occupiers from next year onwards, as buy-to-let landlords can reclaim the charges against tax).

Hmmmm

s_gr

smccarrick wrote:

Hmmm- what is the reason for having a difference in an own door duplex and constituent apartments? In our complex we charge exactly the same (but are proposing a 40% rebate for owner-occupiers from next year onwards, as buy-to-let landlords can reclaim the charges against tax).

Hmmmm

I am currently an owner-occupier of an apartment, if i decided to rent in in a year or two could i then offset the service charge against my tax bill? Just wondering about that as i had not heard of it before.

JimmySmith

smccarrick wrote:

Hmmm- what is the reason for having a difference in an own door duplex and constituent apartments?

I would imagine things like, electricity to the lobby and stairs and corridors area is not needed in an own door apartment.
Cleaning and repairs to the common lobby and stairs and corridors area is not needed for own door.
Own doors look after their own locks and intercoms etc.
They also look after their own fire alarm etc.

I would imagine the difference it costs would be significant.

smccarrick wrote:

In our complex we charge exactly the same (but are proposing a 40% rebate for owner-occupiers from next year onwards, as buy-to-let landlords can reclaim the charges against tax).

I dont see you getting away with this one. While i would love to see it happen its hardly fair is it. Two apartments which would be the exact same and next door to each other would pay different service charges. I would think that the first time its tested in court it would be blown up.

What tennants can claim back in our tax and landlords in theirs are nothing to do with a service charge for repairs, maintenance etc.

Borzoi

JimmySmith wrote:

I would imagine things like, electricity to the lobby and stairs and corridors area is not needed in an own door apartment.
Cleaning and repairs to the common lobby and stairs and corridors area is not needed for own door.
Own doors look after their own locks and intercoms etc.
They also look after their own fire alarm etc.

I would imagine the difference it costs would be significant.


.

Not to mention the dreaded Public Liability insurance for the common area

Victor

smccarrick wrote:

but are proposing a 40% rebate for owner-occupiers from next year onwards, as buy-to-let landlords can reclaim the charges against tax

What about landlords who aren't making enough money to have a tax liability?

Borzoi wrote:

Not to mention the dreaded Public Liability insurance for the common area

I imagine this could be weighted as much to external areas as internal ones, especially as you will have more strangers outside, although stairs probably are a specific hazard. There is also the matter of lifts with apartment blocks.

How is responsibility shared for structural repairs to the houses? If roofs need to be repaired / replaced 15-25 years down the line, are houses responsible for their own and the apartments are shared?

if i decided to rent in in a year or two could i then offset the service charge against my tax bill? Just wondering about that as i had not heard of it before.

Its an expense, so yes you are allowed write it off.

Adnerb

Wow im shocked at all these costs for services charges. I am renting in a fabulous apartment in a complex in drogheda, I have a 2 bed apartment looking over the river boyne. it costs me €800 per month I get a gas bill every month (€5+ summer €30+ winter) i have broadband access for €15 a month and a cable package for €30 per month, my parking is €20 per month, and my petrol every week to dublin costs about €50. I pay no service charge and they are no waste charges. we have a fab reception are with a receptionist monday - saturday if you have any problems, the maintenance guys is there 5 days a week and if you have any problems they are fixed that day. there are 2 lifts in operation in the building, any amount of camera in the common areas and card access throughout the building so security is great. check it out for yourselves.
www.fitzwilliamcourt.com

The_Conductor

I think the operative word in your post is "renting".
Its not normal for those renting to pay Management Charges- its the Landlords, the owners of the units who pay the management charges. With a fulltime receptionist and maintenance people onsite 5 days a week- I can only begin to imagine what the owners must be paying......
Normally the management charge is factored into the rent, though the fact that the charge is a tax deductable charge for the owner (while it would not be for a tenant) also mitigates the amount it might add to the rent.

The people who really get screwed are owner occupiers in complexes like you are describing

goldilocked

Hi there,

I've asked this on another thread, but it might be more appropriate here. Does the management comapany have to charge VAT on the services that it provides? i.e. Do my waste charges cost me 21% more because the management company are billing me for it?

Thanks.

The_Conductor

In the case of our Management Company- we do not charge VAT on charges to Landlords. Its possible its different depending on the company though.

goldilocked

Thanks for the reply. The guy who runs our management company implied that VAT had to be charged? Does anyone know the ins and outs of this, or do other people have experience of being charged VAT?

Thanks in advance.

Adnerb

Thankfully the building i live in is owned by one guy he is the owner and landlord in one and has no plans to ever sell any of the apartments.

The_Conductor

goldilocked wrote:

Thanks for the reply. The guy who runs our management company implied that VAT had to be charged? Does anyone know the ins and outs of this, or do other people have experience of being charged VAT?

Thanks in advance.

We run our management company as a not-for-profit company, and are registered as such with the Revenue Commissioners and the Companies Office. We still have to file annual returns etc. I do not see how this would have any effect on VAT returns though? Normally a company registers for VAT when its cashflow hits certain trigger levels (not sure what level- but we would be under 50k). Normally its in the company's interests to register for VAT as they can then reclaim VAT on any good or services purchased or commissioned on behalf of the company (but they would also be expected to charge VAT and deliver any VAT charged on a quarterly basis to the Revenue Commissioners).

So..... swings and roundabouts....... By being registered for VAT the Management Company can reduce its outgoings, but it must act as a collection agency for the Revenue Commissioner by charging VAT on its services. Alternatively it would pay more for its goods and services, but charge you less by not adding VAT on (as we do....).

Its a case of whose interests the Management Company are acting in- its, or yours......

Caribs

I am living in a small privately managed estate in the west of Ireland. We are paying property management fees including ESB and insurance. My question is - at what point in time should the estate be handed over by the developers to the shareholders. While the houses have been built there is a number of areas fenced off around us zoned for residential use that havent been built on as yet. The developers wont put the final layer of tarmac on the road until the development is complete because construction traffic will ruin it. In the meantime manhole and drain covers edges are protruding from the road increasing our insurance risk I would imagine.

Not sure if Dick Roche will bring in legislation to cover private estates as promised but we are stuck in a vicious circle as the council will never take the estate over until finished and the developer is in no hurry to finish it. In the meantime we are forking out fees.

goldilocked

Thanks for the reply, smccarrick.

The development that I'm in is a mixture of commercial and residential and the revenue is greater (just) than 50k, so I think thats why they're obliged to charge VAT.

delog

Just put a deposit down for a one bedroom in Castleforbes Square. Built by Danninger and will be managed by RF. Should I be worried....very very worried...

markpb

On a lighter note, I bought an apartment built by Barina Construction in Larch Hill (Santry/Coolock) last August. It's maintained by Wyse and costs (me) €1,432 which is down €68 on last year. The shared-entrance apartments pay about €1,700 per year. Having read some of the posts in this thread, I think I've come off well. There is also some problem between the management company and the builders by nothing to do with the maintaince company. The only major complaints the owners had at the meeting last year were security and some flooding in some of the underground carparks.

Apart from that, the property is beautifully kept - the landscaping company cut the grass every few days and the gardens/flowerbeds are well looked after. General lighting which was damanged by scumbags in the area/estate were replaced with not-as-nice but harder to damage pole lights. The electic gates which were fixed several times are now disabled but the volume of traffic means they weren't very effective anyway. They also pay a security company to patrol the area for 10 hours at night.

Victor

markpb wrote:

On a lighter note, I bought an apartment built by Barina Construction in Larch Hill (Santry/Coolock) last August. It's maintained by Wyse and costs (me) €1,432 which is down €68 on last year. The shared-entrance apartments pay about €1,700 per year.

Is this possibly down to a difference in the insurance and repairs / maintainence between apartments and houses?

badbrian wrote:

I think we have an opportunity here in the run up to the next election to highlight the issue that the owner occupiers do not get any tax credit (apart from the waste disposal element) on the management fees. There must be a large number of apartment owner occupiers in the Leinster Region who must be a little teed off with the fees that come out of their after tax income. We must be a considerable voting bloc. Even a tax credit at the marginal rate would be worth a few hundred euro to everyone. So suggest it to the canvassers and maybe one of the opposition parties would run with it (can't imagine current Leinster House incumbents doing anything about it).

Why? Nobody else gets a tax credit for cleaning their windows or cutting the grass or on their insurance or for repairing the roof? Why should you get a tax break that nobody else gets?

The_Conductor

Victor wrote:

Is this possibly down to a difference in the insurance and repairs / maintainence between apartments and houses?

I'd be very curious to know the reason for the difference too- as irrespective of whether its a shared entrance or not, insurance should not make any difference (its not contents insurance afterall, which would obviously be higher for those apartments, as they represent a greater risk).

Victor wrote:

Why? Nobody else gets a tax credit for cleaning their windows or cutting the grass or on their insurance or for repairing the roof? Why should you get a tax break that nobody else gets?

While house owners do not get a tax break for the items above- they do not pay a management fee for them. The likes of myself, an owner-occupier in a managed complex, I pay 1600 per year for certain services- which includes building insurance (but not content insurance), and the luxury of having my windows cleaned once a year (along with lighting etc)- services which are arguably ineffectual or would be free if the complex was ever handed over to the council (SDCC) (apart from having my windows cleaned annually- which I don't care about, as I clean them weekly personally). What does annoy is when living in a managed complex, as an owner occupier, and the vast bulk of the units are occuppied on short leases by tenants who do not give a damn about the complex and are not willing to even go to the bother of bringing their litter as far as the bin, or dispose of things (such as oil or household appliances) in a proper manner. Owner occupiers are carrying the can for all the units in complexes- and in my experience tend to be the only people who bother turning up at AGMs and EGMs. These people- the absentee landlords (in our complex quite a few tenants do not even know who their landlords are)- are entitled to offset management fees against rental income- whereas the people who do all the work- the people who unblock sewage pipes at 3AM on cold winter nights or who liasse with the Gardai when alarms go off at weekends- are left holding the bucket.

Personally I do think that the government gets away with murder with stealth taxes- and I would support a slew of tax credits towards paying for the responsible upkeep of houses and apartments. At the moment the situation is unfairly slewed in favour of investors, who often unfortunately, really do not give a damn. There should be equity and the situation should be seen to be fair- unfortunately it is not. Then again- would a utopian society be any fairer?

markpb

Victor wrote:

Is this possibly down to a difference in the insurance and repairs / maintainence between apartments and houses?

From looking at the accounts, the difference is made up from cleaning of the common areas (lobbys, stairs, etc), repairs and monitoring of the fire alarms system, security system, general lighting and fire extinguishers. I guess its fair enough to make the distinction.

There is a slight difference in insurance between apartment types but it only varies from 92 to 144 and has more to do with the number of bedrooms and the type (duplex, townhouse) than anything else.

Hopefully that answers your question?

badbrian

Victor wrote:

Why should you get a tax break that nobody else gets?

Owners of apartments pay the management fee out of after tax income. Yet investors get tax relief for the same charge.

So I lose out against landlords who have apartments 5 yards from me.

How I lose out against other property owners:
As a owner of a property that has no management fee to pay you also have a chance to keep your property well maintained yourself.
I am sure you don't pay €1,800 and never would for Insurance (building & contents) cleaning, waste disposal, and general upkeep and maintenance.
You also don't have to file returns and pay for audited accounts of how you maintain your property.
Most of the work you will do will increase the value of your property. Most of the work done for us is remedial as many apartments are let to people who care little about the upkeep of the complex as they are paying rent to a landlord.

Also we get no help from the Council as we are considered private property. We save the state money this way. If people dump in our complexes as the Management company are responsible. Someone dumped a car outside our front door and we had to pay to remove it. The council or gardai wouldn't even tell us who owned it. We could actually have been sued by the owner if it had been worth anything.

These management fees are high. Personally I find them a strain on my disposable income. I would welcome some relief. It's not as if I have a choice in paying it. And we have taken action. We changed management agents and we are getting a superior service. But it is still punitive.

Not rounding on you. Just trying to make a point.

Paulw

I think a major issue is what these management agents get away with. We all need to hassle our TDs to get some formal legislation in place, and put some formal structures around what these people do.

We've been having problems with our management agent of late, but we plan to take action. We've formed a residents association and are acting together now. Early days, but we do have plans to deal with things.