Geo Theromal Heating

yop · 05-01-2004 11:51am #1

Lads

Has anyone any experience with Geo Thermal heating.
I have decided I am going to go with an undersoil solution to heat my house and was wondering if anyone has come across anyone with a similiar solution

thanks

Borzoi · 05-01-2004 12:58pm

Direct geothermal energy is generally only any use if you've found a particualr 'hot spot'

Far more common is to use a heat pump arrangement with the underground elelemnt acting as a heat sink in summer and a heat source in winter. Again this is largely associated with underfloor heating as there are synergies between both systems ie using large amounts of moderate temperature water.

yop · 05-01-2004 2:41pm

Thanks for that, I am going with the "coil" looped capture area. A mate has it is and he is very happy with. I have seen the idea of drilling the well but I have over 1/2 acre to mess with so it I have the ground area.

thanks

Eurorunner · 05-01-2004 4:53pm

sounds interesting yop. What did it cost your mate? Do you have any links to his type of system?

daveg · 15-01-2004 11:45am

Yop,

I think I've heard of this before. Can you elaberate and give more details. I'm very interested. I heard of a simular situation where (basically) they drilled down a couple of hundred meters into the ground. Fed down a pipe and it provided all the heat they needed. Is this the same thing?

luckat · 15-01-2004 12:37pm

Sustainable Energy Ireland will help you with this:

http://www.sei.ie/content/content.asp?section_id=1011

There's a convent somewhere that runs an organic centre, and they have a heat pump system running just under the surface of the organic garden, taking the heat from the earth and using it to heat the house and greenhouses, as far as I remember. I'll try to remember to hunt out an article about it.

luckat · 15-01-2004 11:36pm

Ah, here you go:

http://www.technologyireland.ie/archiveissue/index.tmpl?magdate=731520&sec=6&_eqSKUdatarq=20021106112948

(if that doesn't work, Technology Ireland November 2002, Energy from the Earth article)

yop · 17-01-2004 1:13am

Finally some one who has heard of IT!! Mad but they amount of people I tell that I am going to put this either say never heard of it or give u that look!!!
I am going with Dunstart www.dunstar.ie

My mate put it in and he went with these guys and ws very happy with them

I got a quote of them without the plans for a 2100 sq feet house of 8000.

So going on my mates toms usage of 630 euro a year on heating costs (this is actually electricity to run the pumps) it will take about 8 years to make the full cost back.

Daveg - Have a look at the site lad, all the info is there. You need the same sq footage as ur house if u use the coil system for the capture area.

The drill system is the same idea alright.

luckat - That is where my mate got the idea from with the convent, not sure whree they are though

If ye wish I can give u updates as to how things go, house is only at planning stage though and when the system is in you are welcome to come and see it in action.

gluck

luckat · 17-01-2004 8:55pm

Glad to be of help. Yep, send updates. The more people hear about this, the more the price will come down.

yop · 18-01-2004 10:58pm

In the norht the gov give a grant of about 1500 sterling for people who use this sort of system. Then again lads we live in the country of rip off!!!

Will be a pleasure to keep ye updated. Any advice or knowledge I will gladly pass on

Borzoi · 19-01-2004 4:13pm

Originally posted by yop

So going on my mates toms usage of 630 euro a year on heating costs (this is actually electricity to run the pumps) it will take about 8 years to make the full cost back.

Just a word of caution, after eight years the compressor at the heart of the system will be knackered, so at that point you may be looking at replacing the most expensive part of the plant.

Victor · 19-01-2004 8:07pm

Originally posted by yop
Daveg - Have a look at the site lad, all the info is there. You need the same sq footage as ur house if u use the coil system for the capture area.

This will depend slight on the aspect of your house - a south facing slope will do better than a north facing one.

demac · 06-12-2004 6:39pm

My brother had it installed in his house. He finds it a great sucess. He has a 1600 sq feet house with underfloor heating. I think all the plumbing cost in the region of 10K.
He used a company based in Listowel Co. Kerry. I think it is Millenium Heating.

zep · 07-12-2004 9:06am

Yop,
Try these also for more info...
www.Warmfloor.ie they use Climatemaster heat pumps.. very good so I hear.
www.unipipe.ie they use a Nibe heat pump (Fighter) which is developed specifically for use in ireland, as per their site.

I'm building a house now and going for Geo also.. Not even totally sure myself who I'm using but looks like a cost of 15k all in for underfloor on ground and first floor. The heat pump is the most expensive part by far. Geo will not work with rads as its not capable of producing the required temp to heat a rad.
Let me know how its going and if you make any decisions.

Cheers,
Steve

yop · 07-12-2004 12:59pm

Steve

The update on where I am with the UFH and the Geothermal.
House size is 2100 sq feet, built with timber frame so this makes a difference with the size of the heat pump and the amount of pipe for the UFH.

UFH - initally was going with warmfloor at a cost of 7262 inclusive of VAT + install.
One of the lads here got them and they decided that they would bring one of the pipe runs over the perline which was not very impressive, SO I was on another forum (I know it's a sin!!

but there were lads saying that they did it themselves and they were not big DIY buffs but recommended these lads up north so sent off the plans and the came back with a price. The price inclusive of VAT + delivery which includes CAD drawings for the pipe layout, the tools to install, an installation guide for dummies with pictures, all in 4400.
So as you can see with a bit of time on your hands and patience you can save a nice sum of money.

On the GEO - Dunstar are still in front, I got 7 quotes and they are still coming in the best, also I know people who have them and are extremely happy with them, which with something like this, it is important. Their quote is 9600 Euro all in. Some of them do not perform site visits which i think is important,, Dunstar do.

Lads I have an excel spreadsheet with all these quotes and if you post up your email addresses I will gladly email it to you, I know we are all in the same boat!

Slán

Wobs · 08-12-2004 1:33pm

Hey Guys,

I am also going with the Geo and UFH. If you have to drill a well for your water supply you should look at drilling one for the Geo system aswell. It will be a little more expensive then the ground source loop system but is far more efficient in the long run.

Word of warning, alot of the cheaper guys quality is not great, make sure you talk to people who have had it installed for a couple of years before you go with a system.

yop · 08-12-2004 4:10pm

Are you sure that the drill hole system is more efficent?? I have not anything which says that it is? Definately I have heard that the water based (your loop in in a lake not in the groun) is more efficient.
It is definately must more expensive to get installed.

Reputation is a great thing with these guys alright

Wobs · 10-12-2004 10:03am

Yeah,

With the drill hole you are taking water at say 12 degrees straight to the heat exchange, with the loop system if the ground is at 12 the solution in the loop has to take its heat from the ground loosing some heat in that transfer and then bring it to the exchange. Also I think the water in the ground will also be a couple of degrees higher than the ground itself.

Was told all this by a guy at Plan expo. Can't remember the name of his company right now but have it at home, I will post it up later.

slayer92 · 20-12-2004 10:45pm

Its a long time since your orginal post, but maybe you should think about aerothermal system from Sweco This takes the latent heat from the ambient air passes it through the heat pump/exchanger to heat a 500l water tank. This tank acts as the source for the heating system and domectic hot water.
Has seen in action and works very well. No expensive ground works!!!

Regards

Slayer92

qazxsw · 21-12-2004 9:45am

Better late than never, some heatpump and underfloor related links, ...

http://www.ahac.ie/
http://www.aquatech.ie/
http://www.ashgrove.ie/
http://www.energymaster.ie/
http://www.eurotech-heating.com/
http://www.glas.ie/index.html
http://www.gtsireland.co.uk/
http://www.underfloorheatingireland.com/index.html
http://www.heatpumpcentre.org/
http://www.avenir-energie.com/english/acceuil/frame.htm
http://www.solterra.ie/index.htm (Dunstar)
http://www.pet.ie/index.htm
http://www.sweco.ie/

fearrchair · 22-12-2004 9:48pm

Another link to someone who installs Nibe Heatpumps in Ireland and Unipipe Underfloor heating.

www.eil.ie

I am currently in discussions with him with the intention of installing Geothermal Heating and underfloor heating.

My electrician brought me to see a dunstar but it was installed in a garage and sounded like a generator. The Nibe Heatpump could be installed inside a house and is no louder that a fridge. I've see one working that he installed recently as my electrician thought I was mad to try and install inside a house.

I believe that the Nibe pump is computer controlled and just works away switching off when the a basic room thermostat reaches the temperature etc while other heatpumps need controllers at each room location.

I stand to be corrected and it could all be a sales pitch that I was told all this when he visited the house some weeks ago. I've yet to get a quote from him apparantly everyone wants to get in for Christmam....but expect it to be about €9K to buy then theres installation which I not sure will cost.

Theres also something else that is bothering me and that is a story that I heard from plumber that someone installed a geothermal system and had to put in oil 8 months later as the heating failed and the ground surrounding the collector pipes was supposed to be gone to dust and blowing away in the wind. Does anyone know what effect the heat running in and out of these pipes can do to the soil conditions ? The only thing that I am telling myself is that this person was told that his soil wasn't suitable but went ahead anyway, so I suppose he has no one to blame but himself but you'd think they wouldn't have installed it.

Installing a geothermal is a big decision to make to install, and costly if it doesn't work or give trouble.

yop · 23-12-2004 9:38am

"I believe that the Nibe pump is computer controlled and just works away switching off when the a basic room thermostat reaches the temperature etc while other heatpumps need controllers at each room location."

Don't know where he is getting this, the heatpump does not rely on thermostats in each room. Your heat pump will run until your buffer tank/thermal store is filled, this can be a 200 or 300 litre tank.
Maybe he was on about you UFH, this can be controlled by one thermostat or a thermostat in each room.

I did not find a noise issue with the heat pump from Dunstar. Admittadly his was outside the backdoor but even when it was on there was little noise from it.
Some companies will install inside the house, others outside the house.

I did not hear that one about the ground drying out.

luckat · 07-01-2005 3:26pm

I can't understand why one couldn't run the pipes up and down the outside of the house and cover them with exterior plaster. Surely that would be a better idea?

yop · 08-01-2005 10:40pm

"I can't understand why one couldn't run the pipes up and down the outside of the house and cover them with exterior plaster. Surely that would be a better idea?"

So you are saying to cover your house with pipes and plaster over them?? Where would you get the heat from???
I presume you are messing with that suggestion

jayo99 · 09-03-2005 11:07am

Yop.. How can I get in contact with u?
Would be interested in getting that excel sheet from ya :-)

yop · 09-03-2005 11:39am

PM me Jay ur email address and I will send it to you

joseph brand · 13-03-2005 4:14pm

Slightly off the subject of Geothermal heating, Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion(OTEC).

I don't think most boards members have heard of this form of renewable energy.

It is as well known as Geo heating.

For anyone interested for their own knowledge, as it is not usable/feasable for the Irish, link is here:
OTEC

thetourist · 14-03-2005 1:07am

mmm - interesting topic - but i just scanned it so forgive me if i've missed something - just delivering my experiences in case they're of any benefit to anyone

i just moved in last night to my new house which is heated by a ground source heat pump. first off i can advise is that ( in my case anyway ) - it works .. however the underfloor heating part of the system takes a bit of tweaking to get the temperature to where you're comfortable with it --- at least i've heard this from friends with it too

the company i went with was ecoheat from carlow - colum lawlor is the boss and his number is 087 2568791. the system was sort of expensive 18k plus installation for a house of about 2300 sqft. but that included underfloor heating and a pretty imressive hot water system too. that was one of the reasons we went with them is that they were the only company which addressed the issue of hot water properly. heat pumps dont get really hot, so they can only heat water to a certain temperature. put that together with a standard size cylinder and a large bath and a deluge shower and you've got a problem, especially if you have a big family or lots of people wanting showers at the same time - so we spent about 4k extra on this 500L insulated hot water cylinder with it's own special heat pump which can heat the water to 55deg cent -- some of the other systems were actually relying on an imersion ( which is not the kind of house we wanted to live in ) -- plus we get hot water 24 7 even during the summer ( i know it's a bit of a luxury but what the heck !! ) - oh and seing as the cylinder is pressurisable we put a pump on it an pressurised the plumbing too - no need for shower pumps

our heat pump is situated outside and ive heard some companies have pretty loud pumps which are situated in the utility room

i would advise ecoheat - they spend ages with you answering your questions etc which is good in this new area - also one of the directors, fritz has been working with heat pumps for many years in austria

in our system there are no room controllers, you set the temp using the manifold manually. some other companies make a big deal about being able to set all the rooms to special temperatures - i think it's not really necessary - i mean i dont care whether my hall is exactly 2 degrees colder than my kitchen !!

also on our system we have night rate electricity - and the system is set to a lower then required temp during the day and a higher than required at night so the system generally draws power on cheap rate

if i were doing the system diy the one area to NOT mess up is the heat loss calculations -- if you get these wrong you are screwed as you may have to take up your collectors and replace them or something nasty like that - we got an 18 kw system btw ( which can handle a bit of an extension i think )

hope this has been of some benefit to someone - pm me if you need any info

ps i cant understand ---- is the govt asleep?? - why on earth is there no grant for this stuff --- and how much was that fine we had to pay to kyoto last year ?????? ........... a bit irish

yop · 14-03-2005 9:51am

Thanks for the info lad, that seems like a good price @ 18k for UFH and Geo, does that include the presurrised cylinder (Is it a thermal store)???

Are you sure it is an 18kw heat pump, I have got in roughly 10 quotes for a 2100sq ft house and the max pump they recommend is 12kw.

What sort of electric bill are you running?
How long does it run for at nite?
Does it mean you have constant heat in the UFH and hot water on demand?
I presume it is a brine system you have in?

Cheers

Doper Than U · 14-03-2005 2:29pm

That's very interesting Bob, I a pretty much certainly going to go for geothermal heating, but I was concerned with the hot water issue, as I don't like the immersion type set up either. I'm also one of those people that likes to have the heating on more that I should, so I need to know that it's going to be able to really get the house toasty and warm.
Anybody know if it's possible to mix geothermal and wood pellet systems (as a kind of back up/supplement to the geo) or am I going for overkill?

qazxsw · 14-03-2005 2:38pm

I think you can go for a dual coil buffer tank with some systems, one coil supplying heat from the geothermal and the other coil supplying heat from the open fire with back boiler, stove with boiler, oil boiler, gas boiler, etc.

These obviously cost a bit more - check out heat merchants for stainless steel cylinder prices

thetourist · 14-03-2005 5:23pm

does that include the presurrised cylinder (Is it a thermal store)???

yes that includes the pressurised cylinder - but it's not a buffer tank or anything - ie it's part of the hot water system and it doesnt share energy with the heating system - there's no real need for a thermal store as i am on nightrate electricity and i am not using solar/ wind or anyting - so it just heats up the slab and the hot water tank in the night time and i have the heat during the day - but it can also come on at daytime if it gets cold

Are you sure it is an 18kw heat pump, I have got in roughly 10 quotes for a 2100sq ft house and the max pump they recommend is 12kw.

pretty sure yea !!! - it was a size too big for the house but the company says its better to go a little too big so you have room to expand, etc. however the plumber who put the system in ( who is not really connected to the heating company ) said that he just worked on a house where the heat pump recomended was too small - so it can happen - i would at least give ecoheat a shot at a quote - they have a completely different approach to all the others - imo the more aspect/perspective you can get on a job like this the better !!!

What sort of electric bill are you running?

dont know yet -- but be warned power bills for underfloor heating are massive for the first three months while the slab heats up and dries out

How long does it run for at nite?

not sure yet - too much other stuff on my mind

Does it mean you have constant heat in the UFH and hot water on demand?

well having ufh more or less implies constant heat anyway afaik - even if it's on a trad boiler - that's the way the systems are designed to operate - so the heat pump doesnt change this afaik
-- yes 24 7 hot water !!!

I presume it is a brine system you have in?

i dont think so !!! why would it be - you mean in the ufh - ?? - no the pipes are filled with regular water

Anybody know if it's possible to mix geothermal and wood pellet systems (as a kind of back up/supplement to the geo) or am I going for overkill?

first off i'd say imo it's a tiny bit overkill - but then it's your house so do it your way - on my system i know there is a facility for a backup boiler but a regular oil boiler would probably do as you will hardly ever need to use it - i mean it's not like the geothermal will not get enough heat or anything - however it's worth remembering that geothermal runs on esb so if the power goes for a few days you could be screwed unless you have a generator ( i invested in one myself - buy and sell 400 for a 5.5kva and then i got the electrician to install a transfer switch ) - which i suppose could be a little overkill in itself .... in general though i would be thinking more in terms of a backup system than a suppmental system - unless you go for solar/wind in which case i think you need a buffer tank to work it properly - and when i investigated that it was pretty costly
also the hot water cylinder which i got has a few spare coils which mean that i could potentially suplement the domestic hot water heating using solar/wind/backboiler or whatever ---that could save on the esb

I think you can go for a dual coil buffer tank with some systems, one coil supplying heat from the geothermal and the other coil supplying heat from the open fire with back boiler, stove with boiler, oil boiler, gas boiler, etc.

yes it would make sense that if you had a buffer tank for the ufh you would be able to have a couple of coils in it which means that you can store heat from whatever heat source is available at the time - ie solar/wind/back boiler - so solar when it's sunny, wind when it's windy, back boiler when you've got the fire lit -- but it makes no sense to me to have an oil boiler connected to a buffer tank as it's always the same - ie you can turn it on at anytime an so there's no need to store the heat for later when you need it - the only real place an oil boiler has with a heat pump is in a backup scenario as the two do basically the same thing and if you are running a backup system then there's no need for a buffer tank as that's more for supplemental - you could however have a heat pump running an oil boiler as a backup and then having a buffer tank for use with solar/wind/bboiler but that could get really expensive

myself i have the generator as backup in case the power goes down and i MIGHT get a buffer tank in the future for use with a wind gen but afaik those things take about 14 years to pay for themselves

ps all this reminds me that dedicated cylinders are huge - and buffer tanks are even bigger and you really need to incorporate a suitable space for them aswell as all the rest of the plant - hot press just wont do- except it's a cool place for the ufh manifold --- also if you stick it on the end of a bungalow as i did then you'll have to wait a full minute for the water to come hot in the tap !! dont say you werent warned !!!

yop · 14-03-2005 5:59pm

Thanks for the update, I can understand the oversizing alright, it gives you more room for expansion.

On the brine - this is the mix , water and anti-freeze that is pumped outside in your loop for the geo. I presume you have about 6 or 700 metres of pipe in the garden??

There now seems to be this D/X (Direct Expansion) system out there that uses a refrigerant instead of the brine, it means about 1/6th the amount of pipe and they say it gives you heat to 80 degrees Cent. so no need for domestic water kits or heat plates, as well as that they do not require a pump as the brine system does so therefore cuts down the number of working parts and also the cost of running the system.

The argument some companies have is that if you have your large thermal store or buffer tank is that there is store of water built up over night and you use it away, I presume you have the same idea, did you say you paid 4k for the cylinder???

Then there is the air 2 air solution!! Choices smoices, I will be gone mad!!

I was talking to a girl here at work and they have a 3300 sq foot castle, I mean house, and they have geo.
There elect bill was 500 yoyos for the 2 months. Have UFH as well.

Where are you based do you mind me asking???
I presume it is Lenister??
Did you get many other quotes??

qazxsw · 14-03-2005 6:29pm

heat merchants 500 Ltr stainless steel dual coil tank, E 2050 + vat

www.heatmearchants.ie code u80104, or search for cylinder stainless steel

Doper Than U · 14-03-2005 6:55pm

500 euros for two months??? Is that the initial two months that Bob spoke of, or a typical price? I was really hoping to go as self-sufficient (and oil free) as possible, but that doesn't really fit in with relying so heavily on the ESB for electricity for the pump. As you say, solar and wind are options, but they themselves are not guaranteed. I wonder how possible it would be to primarily run off solar and have the ESB connection as back up... and how practical would it be? Maybe I would need the wood pellets as a back up too...
I'll be looking to use a Heat Recovery system as well (God, I really am going for overkill, but I only want to do this once).

thetourist · 15-03-2005 4:23am

The argument some companies have is that if you have your large thermal store or buffer tank is that there is store of water built up over night and you use it away, I presume you have the same idea, did you say you paid 4k for the cylinder???

the store of water i have built up overnight is not for use with the heating system but the domestic hot water - there is no connection - i dont have a buffer tank at all - other than the fact that the cylinder is it's own buffer tank !! of course the slab is in a way it;s own buffer too in that it gets heated on night rate electicity and then stores it - buffers really only come into their own with wind/solar - saw a house in austria which depended enirely on a combination of solar and a buffer system - no other heating - on duncan's program last year i think

yes i paid about 4k for it ( i think it might have been a bit less ) - can get the exact figure if you want --
it is not just a pressurised cylinder, but it has it's own dedicated heat pump backup immersion and also is really well insulated, along with having about 3 spare coils for solar etc

this is the main heat pump and the cylinder is a bit like this

we are in kilkenny - we got about 4 quotes i think

in case you're interested in the system we used then i see you're in mayo but i dont think it would make a lot of difference to the price to be honest because they just explain in detail to local trades how to fit the thing and then they drive up and commission it

I wonder how possible it would be to primarily run off solar and have the ESB connection as back up... and how practical would it be? Maybe I would need the wood pellets as a back up too...

yes as i mentioned earlier in the post there was a guy on that program with a house in austria which ran entirely from solar - but he had something like a 200hectolitre tank surrounded by about a metre of insulation and he had a custom built computer control system for managing his store of heat - then he had some special design in the house which maximized passive solar heating too - however i think what you need is a cut down version of the same thing - get as big a buffer as you can and as much solar panels as you and then get maybe the wool pellet boiler as a supplemental / backup ( in that you can turn it on when you need it ) and you should be sorted

it all really boils down to payback time -- i mean you can easily get free energy if you really want it but it might never pay for itself - heat pumps and wood pellet boilers i think are a better bet than wind power - not sure about solar but it's useless for heating unless you've got a buffer and i think buffers start at about 7 grand ( could be wrong here - but if you think about it they have got to be humungous to get the desired effect )

yop · 15-03-2005 9:52am

500 euros for two months??? Is that the initial two months that Bob spoke of, or a typical price? I was really hoping to go as self-sufficient (and oil free) as possible, but that doesn't really fit in with relying so heavily on the ESB for electricity for the pump

Doper that is not very high to be totally honest. The average ESB bill now a days would come in close to 200 euro anyway for the 2 months, my parents live on their own and theirs was 230, but it was the xmas period.

So if you take out the ESB, you are talking 300 euro over the 2 months to heat the house, 150 per month, 1800 per year, but remember this is a 3300 sq foot house. BTW they also have a Jacuzzi, which is keep running all the time, so I am sure this takes a big chunk of electricity.

I have been told that to run the Geo heat pump it cost 1.5kw of enegy per hour for a 10kw heat pump, I think it is 12c per kw, so you are talking about 18c per hour, if you have it on 10 hours a day, 356 days a year you are looking at about 700 euro for the year.

That is a serious cylinder, I would have thought that even though a standard cyclinder would not work that you would not have needed to pay out that money for a cylinder.

I am off to hopefully see an Air 2 Air system over the next week or so, I will keep ye updated on what I think of it

I meant to say that I would probably be installing a Windsave unit in the house, it will at least use the wind around us to give us some free electricity. Going to cost about 1500 euro

qazxsw · 15-03-2005 10:37am

Windsave looks interesting,
are there any planning issues you are aware of with the windsave turbine ?

yop · 15-03-2005 11:06am

Not where I am lad, I have talked to my engineer and he seems to think that there should not be an issue

yop · 15-03-2005 3:32pm

Well lads,
As an update, I spent a while of free time today doing a bit of research and have come to the conclusion that I will be going down the Direct Expansion (D/X) ground loop geothermal solution.
I have pasted in a number of links there for you to view, very interesting and good comparisons.

Slán

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=geo_heat.pr_crit_geo_heat_pumps
http://www.geothermix.com/english/product/direct1.html
http://tristate.apogee.net/geo/faqs.asp
http://www.heatpumpcentre.org/About_heat_pumps/Heat_sources.asp
http://www.heatpumps.co.uk/groundsource.htm

thetourist · 16-03-2005 2:27am

I would have thought that even though a standard cyclinder would not work that you would not have needed to pay out that money for a cylinder

correct - but i think a lot of the expense was for the second heat pump and collector system attached to the cylinder - forgot to mention that this means that i have hot water through the summer without turning on the main heat pump

........ windsave -- never heard of it

do you have any links ?? sounds like something i might be into

hope the system youve chosen works out for you - looks like you're doing a good bit of research anyway

fearrchair · 16-03-2005 10:04pm

You can find a little information on their website at www.winsave.com

More information can be got if you do a search on Google but some of it is repeated.

thetourist · 17-03-2005 3:33am

www.winsave.com

web hosting

no worries i'll get it

fearrchair · 17-03-2005 4:51pm

Very Sorry just typed it from memory...

http://www.windsave.com/index.htm

thetourist · 17-03-2005 5:51pm

any idea how much these windsave units are and whether they install them here or are there any irish distributers here or what

Goll Mac Morna · 17-03-2005 7:32pm

bobmurphy wrote:

any idea how much these windsave units are and whether they install them here or are there any irish distributers here or what

The whole unit (turbine and inverter that plugs into the ring main) is £1,200.
Windsave is being distributed in Ireland by a company in Ballyclare called BUILDING PRODUCTS email buildingproducts@btconnect.com.

One thing about the WINDSAVE is that as far as I know, (or as far as I have been told by someone who is big into WIND power) the WINDSAVE will not provide power when the mains supply is off. (e.g. during a power cut)
You will notice on www.windsave.com that the describe their device as one that "...references from the mains..." so I presume when the mains is not on the windsave doesn't provide your power.

In any case it looks like a great product if it will reduce electricity bills by 30% (the only concern I have about this figure is that it is more than likely based on the WINDSAVE having maximum output in ideal wind conditions prob. something like constant 12mph winds)

If you find out good info from them will you PM me or post to this board as I am trying to find out/ make final decisions on about a thousand other things @ the minute as the countdown begins to starting to build our house!!!!

pitstop · 17-03-2005 9:32pm

Great topic - finally some people who have heard about Geothermal!! Read ALL the posts and must say - thanks for being so honest, the choice is amazing not to mention the price variations!!!

So, tons of ???s

Just building a 2700 sq ft block house on 2 acre site and would like UFH on both floors with geo thermal (thinking of Dunstar??), so here goes with the ???s

Don't want to pay ESB all that money on the pump - what other options do I have?? Have a south facing roof so was think solar but don't know anything about it or it's effectiveness and how it would work (doing my own electrics so not sure about this). Also thought about wind as site is quite windy BUT still concerned about the potential health hazards (I know, I know - not proven blah, blah, blah but don't want to take the chance).

Have 4 showers - do I need to go the "Bob" route in terms of hot water - hoping not?? If I don't go down Bob's route - what options do I have for hot water outside of immersion??

Can I integrate a solid fuel option with UFH and hot water even when using geo thermal??

Yop - you seem to have done some serious research - what did you decide in the end - let me know if you would prefer I PM you for that info??

Really appreciated any help - Deadwork is started so need to make decisions NOW.

BTW - why are there no other girls on here??? - do we only build our own homes in Cork??

Thanks in advance

Pitstop

PS - Saw a new development of 8 houses last week-end - developer used geo-thermal as a major differentiator to the market - the more popular it gets, the better!

Capt'n Midnight · 17-03-2005 10:26pm

Goll Mac Morna wrote:

(the only concern I have about this figure is that it is more than likely based on the WINDSAVE having maximum output in ideal wind conditions prob. something like constant 12mph winds)

The brochure says 12m/s = 30Kmph (~20 Mph)

Rated output nominally 1KW at 12m/s rated wind speed.
....
6m/s (a fairly average UK windspeed) nominally 40-45 dBA

Doper Than U · 17-03-2005 10:31pm

BTW - why are there no other girls on here??? - do we only build our own homes in Cork??

Nope,

I'm building my house in Wicklow...

Good questions though, I'm thinking along the same lines as you. I'm not happy about that ESB bill as I was hoping to be as self sufficient as possible. Anyone know the electricity needed to power a pump like that (like KWh per year etc), and whether wind/solar/both will do the job most of the time with ESB power there as back up.

If I were to integrate solid fuel (I'm thinking wood as it's CO2 neutral) would a rayburn do the job?

thetourist · 18-03-2005 1:34am

Anyone know the electricity needed to power a pump like that (like KWh per year etc), and whether wind/solar/both will do the job most of the time with ESB power there as back up.

i think in our case the system takes 3.3kva -- which would mean that for instance if you had a petrol generator or something like that ( i know you wouldnt but just for ilustrative purposes) then you would need a 3.3kva generator for the heating alone

please double check that figure it is only from memory and i was never 100% sure of it anyway

oh and i think the esb provide you with a 12kva supply for a domestic house

the trouble with alternative sources of power like wind and solar is that they are not there all the time -- which means that you need to store them - which from an ufh point of view means that you either need in the case of wind power to get a battery bank and an inverter ( very expensive ) or in either case you can use what i think is called a buffer tank - also very expensive and very large ( though i think your domestic hot water cylinder can be incorporated into it also which saves a bit of space )
next problem is that with the battery/inverter setup the batteries will only last so long before you have to replace them - and they are the most expensive bit --- it all comes down to payback time and afaik the payback time on these systems is just too long ( it could be 10 - 15 years ) with very little other benefits

-- this seems to be one of the major benefits of the windsave system in that you dont have to worry about storage as the electricity is used straight away - having read about these in the last day or two i am not considering the notion that as heat pump houses would have a normally high esb bill that they could benefit from more than one of these devices - any comments anyone ???

wind/solar/both will do the job most of the time with ESB power there as back up

this is the idea i originaly toyed with but i gave up on it because of the high cost of storage -- you should have a look into the windsave yourself as it seems a better idea than a standard turbine

solar - an ideal use of solar is to heat your hot water --- i think you can get 60% of your hot water free from the sun or something like that - i plan on investing at some stage myself

Have 4 showers - do I need to go the "Bob" route in terms of hot water - hoping not?? If I don't go down Bob's route - what options do I have for hot water outside of immersion??

im offended

-- no just kidding !!!

afaik the only real options are:
1 - use main hp to heat dom hw - ( prob is main hp comes on during summer and water may not be that hot so supplement with immersion and/or use a large ( HUGE) cylinder - or else put up with only one bath/shower at a time as cylinder will have to fill and heat again - ok for small occupancy )

2 have a secondary heat pump - this is what i did - pretty expensive but obviously i thought it was worth it - 24 7 365 cheapish hot water / pressurised system - no need for shower pumps - main heat pump doesn't come on if not needed

3 supplement either 1 or 2 using solar/wind/back boiler --- starting to get a bit expensive again i think but you might manage free hot water - in fact this is what i'm aiming at

4 same as 3 but have the primary emphasis on the solar/wind etc power

5 immersion only - argghh

6 cooker or something like a range heating the hot water

there are many other ways of heating your water but these seem like the most likely ones to me - it basicaly comes down to having either one or 2 heat pumps and either supplimenting that or not with wind/solar etc or else relying primarily on wind/solar and use an immersion for backup

i think this covers it but i'm open to suggestions and corrections

Can I integrate a solid fuel option with UFH and hot water even when using geo thermal??

not sure about the ufh ( you might need to have some kind of a buffer or something where the hp heat and solid fuel heat can mix ) -- but you can certainly do it with reguard to the hot water anyway i think because all you need is to have an extra coil on your cylinder and put the solid fuel heat through one and whatever you're using to heat the water through the other ( get lots of spare coils is my advice - you never know when you''ll want them)

UFH on both floors

pitstop i did ufh upstairs on my house and i did the concrete screed method upstairs ( you can use the battens method either ) -- well just to say that it was a great decision - i dont think it was a large expense and the floor upstaris is very solid with minimal floor/ceiling noise too - everyone comments on it

another thing i think you should do is to put insulation between the floors - this is not normally done but it gives you a better chance of containing downstairs heat downstairs because all that heat downstairs can make upstairs pretty hot and you might not like it that way

I presume when the mains is not on the windsave doesn't provide your power.

i would say you are correct -- the windsave system needs to put it's ac output in phase with the house's , so it presumably copies it - and if the house has none then i would think it might not have anything to copy so it wouldnt surprise me if it just stopped - also it would not be safe to provide the power to the house though the ring main - i mean if someone turned on the hob ,oven and drier or something toghter then the ring main would be under serious pressure to cope --

personally i have a small backup generator powering the house via a transfer switch in case of powercut but i would imaging that the windsave would reference against that and it would take some of the load off the generator and give me a bit more headroom in terms of what i could turn on if the esb power was off-

pitstop · 18-03-2005 9:40am

Bob

You're a star - thanks for all the answers!

Re: UFH - Do you have a first floor slab or joists - sounds like a slab - going with joists, but going with some sort of screed on/between them otherwise it's not going to be as effective.

Sounds like I will go your route (I really want that extra water!! - very clean people here

) and then put in windsave as well. I might also look at the solar option - I have loads of south facing space for it but as you say, the costs are not in the panel itself. However, as it will all add up in terms of costs, it's probably easier for me to add the winsave later than solar so that might make my mind up.

Had a politician at my door last night (Paddy's day - what's that about??) - told him my views about no grant aid for this - agree with you that it's bloody ridculous!!

Thanks a bunch - sorry, but I'm gonna plagued you with ???s!!

Pitstop

Geo Theromal Heating

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