DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883954#Comment_120883954

the issue ultimately isn't whether the technology would or wouldn't take off, that is a side show currently.

the issue is that the regulator has decided nobody can have it because the existing stations based on fm don't want it, so nobody can actually decide whether it is or isn't pointless because that decision has been taken out of their hands.

remove that issue and the debate goes away, as the actual market will be able to decide and will do so either way and there can be no further argument seeing as the barrier preventing it's use is removed.

Tax The Farmers

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120879553#Comment_120879553

A lot of DAB's detractors claim its "old technology" (The original DAB dates from the 1990's although DAB+ is a more recent development)

In that case what on earth do they make of FM -a technology developed before/during the second world war ?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000024#Comment_121000024

There are people in Ireland who absolutely hate DAB Radio and they seem to be in a strong majority. They would do anything to discredit the DAB technology no matter what. The ship has saild, now it's too late, and even further newer statements like this are coming up, whilst the rest of Europe aimes for DAB+ for 2030.

The problem is that FM is old technology, costly and allows no real growth to cater for today's audience. However I do understand that the ILRs in Ireland dislike DAB as well, as they fear competition which they don't want, but in reality already have, - the younger generation listening to streams online via apps on their smartphones.

FM will at some point go the same road as MW and LW did.

Incidentally the RTE would be saving an awful lot of money if they would switch over to DAB, give everyone in Ireland a DAB radio for free, then switch off FM and it'll still be cheaper for the RTE.

The stigma of FM radio is that it's for the stubborn mind, - sadly.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000024#Comment_121000024

FM works, and works well - and already exists and is paid for.

A radio with two AAA cells can give reception for many many hours, try that with DAB.

The signal degrades gracefully until it's very poor indeed, DAB suffers from bad audible artifacts and then stops working altogether.

Original DAB is MP2 (yes, 2) and wastes bandwidth to the extent that many stations in the UK are mono only or very poor bitrate stereo. Sound quality even with a good signal far inferior to FM. DAB+ can match FM but rarely does.

FM is not full even in the largest radio market in Ireland so there is no justification for DAB and none of the existing commercial broadcasters are interested in it. An expensive solution in search of a problem.

Elvis Hammond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000024#Comment_121000024

DAB standards are more about what could be practically built & sold as receivers. The methods of coding & sending the information must date to the 1960s at least.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000072#Comment_121000072

There are people in Ireland who absolutely hate DAB Radio and they seem to be in a strong majority.

The strong majority don't have the first idea what DAB radio is. The minority who know what it is do not want it. A subset of that minority do want it, but for ideological reasons, not because it's actually necessary.

The argument that "if DAB is old technology, what is FM?" would only be relevant if we were building a new FM network from scratch.

Mickey Mike

Whatever about the switching off of LW and MW, RTE needs to keep one source of analogue transmission and while DAB don't seem to be up to scratch we need to keep the FM platform for a long time yet. It may be an old format but its the best that's there and its Radio, real Radio.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002938#Comment_121002938

I would consider the cost of transmission a necessity. Also sadly many people are blinded by the idea that radio needs to be a 87,6 to 108 kind of story. And not knowing what DAB is, can be helped by marketing.

The overall financial situation of the RTE isn't great either and that's a conservative and diplomatic statement. I am sure they will be pushing for some kind of flat license fee per household at some point, regardless if you have a TV or not. It's quite plausible the RTE will succeed with this as public sector broadcasters do tend to have politics and lawmakers to back their backs..... If this law ever came to fruition it'll be hard to swallow, if DAB continues to be denied. The cost of transmission is only one tenth of the one of FM, plus more choice for programmes as well.

I nave no ideological feelings towards DAB, however it's simply the better choice, and missed strongly if one has lived in a "DAB country" before.

reslfj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002816#Comment_121002816

DAB is late 1980's proof of concept and technology from a University Research project under the Eureka program. Taken over by the BBC (to avoid losing the VHF III band after closing VHF TV transmissions ?).

It is based on consumer prices and 1990 chip technology. It is very outdated in terms of transmission quality and general coverage. It also mixes the audio encoding and the transmission itself. Modern digital systems transmits bits without errors without any interpretation of the bits.

DAB+ (2006) fixed the original digital audio encoding somewhat and added an additional RS error correction layer, but did not address the fundamentally flawed transmission standard. The RS error correction was already in use on music CDs (on market 1992/83) and by 1995/96 in DVB-T.

Modern transmission of digital data is far more efficient, error free, has higher capacity. Consumer chips have literally a million times higher capacity.

Lars 😀

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002460#Comment_121002460

there is actually no basis to say there is no justification for DAB,

seeing as it is a decision that has to be made by the actual market including new and prospective operators big and small based on their own choices which are their own choices only and should not prevent others from making decisions.

but as we know, instead civil servants have decided nobody else can have it because the existing stations have made their own choice.

in a commercial market, fm in the largest market would be full with content being king, but even then if one wants to apply for a full time license they will not get one, and even if they do, they have the highest costs of doing radiio within europe, if not the world, excluding the necessary and unavoidable costs.

the only way your claim that there is no justification for DAB can would or will stack up, is that the regulation and frameworks had been or were implemented down the line, and nobody used the technology, but until then, realistically it's a claim that as i said has no basis.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121002938#Comment_121002938

some of the minority who know what it don't want it, which is fine.

however some of that minority are preventing others from using it because they don't want it, which is a huge problem and must be undone.

the minority who do want it want it because it allows the provision of a full radio market which we should have got in 1989, by where stations survive or not based on their content, which in turn insures listenner choice and good content.

if we are keeping terrestrial radio, then DAB is necessary to increase listener choice, invalidate the failed high cost base regulatory model which is no longer working, and provide the market based approach necessary for commercial private businesses to actually compete.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003539#Comment_121003539

I think some people don't even know that there is a difference between DAB and DAB+ and most people in the UK probably don't either. BBC Radio in the UK is on the older DAB, whilst most commerical stations are increasingly interested in DAB+. Most EU countries who have adopted digital radio have adopted DAB+ not DAB.

If you have a DAB+ Radio you will be able to recieve DAB signals but not the other way around. I think this concerns the older Pure and Roberts radios in the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003591#Comment_121003591

You're mostly correct about this one. FM radio has no real room for growth, and will see a very slow and steady decline. 4 RTE stations, Newstalk or Today FM and one or the other ILR won't do it in the next 10 years. This will be mostly because of an aging population and the younger ones turning to streams on smartphones. DAB or better DAB+ can bring radio back, or make it fit for the future.

Andy From Sligo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005255#Comment_121005255

what if radio's went full stop eventually? - what if the newer generations said "do you remember radio's when we were growing up?" as they listen to stations through other means. i suppose I could see that happening - the future is digital.. almost everything is digital now - thats why in a way its amazing analog FM still exists these days and has not been taken over by at least DAB+ around the world including Ireland.

Honestly was there this much hoo ha when RTE TV was on VHF band on the TV and the other channels were on UHF , i dont recall such people saying that UHF and VHF were sufficient enough for Ireland and that there was no need to go digital with Saorview and satellite etc - it just eventually happened and the population got on absolutely fine with it and no longer look to go back to the days of VHF & UHF for television ... so consequently why does it seem a lot of people do not welcome a full DAB+ radio service in Ireland and a retirement of the old poor sound constricted FM services?

bagonua

Digital TV provides the means for HD TV.

Digital TV also coincided with the transition to flat panel TVs, so there were several factors in its favour.

DAB radio doesn't offer better sound quality. FM radios didn't suddenly seem like bulky obsolete devices with a better alternative. Cars already have FM tuners, and so on. And if you want to listen to broadcast radio in your living room, you can via Saorview / satellite.

What did happen to FM is that streaming came along.

Have you ever been to Belfast? There's loads of stations on FM up there and if you want to hear them in worse quality you can get them on DAB too!

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121003533#Comment_121003533

The cost of transmission is a tiny fraction of what it would take to transition to DAB. You've mentioned marketing, the cost of that would be an enormous multi year spend.

And since you're talking at least 5 or 10 years to transition fully, you'd be carrying both sets of transmission costs for quite a while. Look how long it took to get rid of LW.

There is just no economic case for this, it's not needed and RTE are in no position to roll it out.

It will never happen.

Shoog

Can't believe people are still banging this drum. It ain't going to happen DAB is dead in Ireland.

Gerry Wicklow

It would take years to transition both the network and audience assuming there is a big enough audience in the first case. The commercial stations don't want or can't afford it and RTÉ are in no position to go it alone. Going cold turkey and pulling FM would only drive away listeners. Worse case scenario, we could end up with another 252 farce. RTÉ1 FM limping along by itself on FM waiting for the technophobe listeners to literally die out.

😜

Schorpio

DAB wouldn't make since in Ireland as a replacement for FM. But who says it needs to be? FM has no plans to shut off in the UK, and they have a very mature DAB network.

DAB works best where it compliments FM. In theory niche stations could broadcast nationwide for a fraction of what it would cost on FM. Even RTE knew this - RTE Gold, RTE Pulse and 2XM were all on DAB and not FM. (And despite no publicity, Gold actually managed to build an audience, eventually getting presenters and shows).

Also, regional stations could be on FM locally (as they are now) and simulcast nationally on a DAB multiplex. Again, something that was (briefly) trialed in Ireland with zero publicity.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005675#Comment_121005675

LW was kept on due to politics more then anything so the comparison isn't really a good one.

there absolutely is an economic case to allow DAB, whether it happens or not once the effective bann on it would be lifted, that should be for the actual market to decide who currently can't, not civil servants and the existing FMERS to decide on behalf of others.

if we are keeping terrestrial radio, which it looks like we will be for decades to come, unless it is going to be allowed to go through a managed decline, DAB or any future terrestrial platform should it come along, will be needed to provide the competition and greater listener choice that is desperately needed to modernise the industry and move it forward to compete with the online world once it eventually grows to a sufficient level where it will be a viable competitor.

to say it will never happen is a bit of a bold claim, as while the current regulator will continue it's effective bann on the use of the technology, that bann will be unsustainable unless as i said, the plan is for managed decline of the existing terrestrial industry.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005697#Comment_121005697

unfortunately given that there is an effective bannn on the use of the technology, to claim it is dead in ireland can't actually be proven (or disproven) as nobody can put it to the test.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121006803#Comment_121006803

The economic case is "let the free market decide what is best" and "if only the bureaucrats would stop interfering, things would be great" - this is a right wing ideological thesis and not a real discussion of the issue. What usually happens in these cases is the big players come in, trample everyone else and you're left with a lot less choice than when you started.

But even in this case - the private sector had lots of opportunities to come in and run trials, and many of them did - and then every single one of them decided it wasn't worthwhile. Your position is that there's a giant pot of gold to be had, but all these private companies turned their noses up, to continue losing money on FM?

And now here we are in 2023, and mobile internet has completely changed the business case for DAB. And by "changed", I mean "obliterated".

If no one was willing to front the cash for a transmission network, multiple stations and massive publicity drive 15 years ago, they certainly aren't going to do it now.

Thatcherism aside, there is simply no argument for it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121005255#Comment_121005255

How can DAB ‘bring radio back’ when you’ve already said ‘the younger ones are turning to streams on smartphones’? Will these people as they get older turn to a specific device (a radio) to listen to stuff that their smartphones already provide? I think not.

People underestimate how dominant smartphones are as a technology IMO. They’ve seen off things like satnavs and digital cameras. They’ll see off radios too i suspect among people who see them as the primary means to interact with the world.

lgs 4

If RTE had the money I don't think that the Dab radio network wouldn't have closed.If Dab radio ever returns RTE need to have commercial radio on board.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007054#Comment_121007054

a couple of big players are already here, big players have been here in some form for a couple of decades now.

the regulator has rolled over and allowed odd derogations from some license requirements to keep transmitters on air and will do so again, no doubt about it.

ireland is not some unique or special market that will be able to continue as is indefinitely, more and more networking will creap in as time goes by and more and more roll overs will happen with the regulator.

yes companies came in and ran trials, trials for which the licenses were for what, a year at a time? nobody is going to take anything further if they aren't going to be able to operate anything on a full time basis, which they would not be able to as they would not get the licenses to operate on a full time basis if they even wanted to.

had they been able to get such licenses and didn't take them up, then that would be a very different story and there would be no discussion seeing as the ability was there, but ultimately it isn't and there is an effective bann on the use of the technology, for which there is absolutely no justification.

i never said there was some pot of gold, in fact as it is the value of fm licenses are likely declining, however for now at least absolutely there is some money still to be made, especially if the stations had the ability themselves to decide their business model.

no, it won't be gold, but it is nothing to turn ones nose up at either.

actually while there is plenty of areas with good mobile internet coverage, there is still large amounts of unreliability and that is why for now and for a good while yet, it won't be to the full standard needed, even if you exclud the very low lying areas that may never have it if there would be any.

ultimately, even if it is the case that mobile internet has obliterated the business case for DAB, that should be for the market to be actually able to decide rather then civil servants deciding that because existing stations don't want to use it, nobody else can have it. there is absolutely no justification for that what soever.

nobody could front the cash for a transmission network, stations and marketing 15 years ago because they were not able to do so, because there were no full time operating licenses available, and putting up that cash for trial licenses that are short and with no guarantee of extention was not going to happen, which by the way doesn't mean it would or wouldn't have happened with full time operations.

there is absolutely every argument to allow the use of the technology and have the legal frameworks in place, and if then nobody takes it up, then that is a legitimate choice which can allow the discussion to be put to bed.

but until then, the perfectly valid points i and others have made stand and have been in no way, nor can be disproven, because there is no ability to legitimately put them to the test, and the arguments against can't be shown to have any basis as the basis for them being made don't have any good underpin for them to stand on as they are either based on the failings of the current FM based model or as you mentioned, the issues with the short trial only licenses which are not full time licenses.

ultimately, i have not been convinced that the effective bann on the use of the technology should remain in place.

Former Former Former

Think back to the digital TV switchover. We literally could not get a single private operator to set up a commercial mux, and that was knowing that a mandatory shutdown of analogue TV was coming, long before streaming was a thing, and with the benefits of digital TV over analogue very obvious.

And still, no takers.

Imagine looking for commercial DTT operators now? They'd laugh you out of the meeting and ask you if you've heard of a thing called the internet.

Ireland is too small a market to make these things viable. You could throw the whole market wide open and tell everyone to have at it, you could round up all the civil servants and ship them to Rwanda, but it doesn't change the reality, no-one would be interested. Why would they? The problem is already solved with zero start-up costs required from the broadcasters. Building a DAB network increases your potential audience by precisely zero, brings no tangible benefit to the listener, and you need a huge upfront outlay just to compete with yourself.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121007097#Comment_121007097

Fair point if somebody doesn't want digital radio. Bringing back also means different things to different people. The value of DAB / DAB+ is only the massive choice of different radio stations. Just one or two multiplexes probably won't do it. You'd need at least a choice like in Northern Ireland to make it happen.

Before DAB / DAB+ became popular in the UK, I didn't bother anymore with FM radio, not even AM, the smartphone did everything, so turning on a radio became rarer and rarer for me. With DAB / DAB+ I do turn on the radio again and again, thus it brought it back to me.

I also never really liked a smartphone taking over everything. I always liked my digital camera as a separate device, same as I like music coming from different device, other than a phone.

These choices and habits are always personal. To me, FM doesn't do it anymore as it's outdated, costly and little choice, but this is spoken by somebody who lives in a country where there is a broad choice of digital radio.

reslfj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010641#Comment_121010641

FM is not outdated and is in many ways far superior the the 1988 DAB 'proof of concept' technology.

FM can cover large areas with few transmitters at a very small cost per person covered.

Apart from very few large radio stations, the larger number of local stations have few active listeners and can be effectively served by 4G/5G mobile internet.

Had the UK and the BBC not been so impatient and had waited until a decent digital standard was developed, it might have looked very differently , but now it's too late.

Lars 😀

bagonua

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121010641#Comment_121010641

While we're at it, have you ever tried to buy a smartphone that doesn't also have a clock on it. I have my watch to tell me the time! Why would I need my phone to tell me the time?

kazoo106

The amount of negativity or agendas here is beguiling

I can't wait for the time the internet goes down or is switched off on purpose - and it will !

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121011224#Comment_121011224

Thats what FM is for.