Editing programs

El Marco

I suppose I'll get the ball rolling and ask what's the best A/V editing software. I have an interest in this area but the software I've used have been very limited, with just basic cut and paste options.

bambam

I've used Adobe Premier 6.5 for knocking up a couple of family wedding videos. Its got a bit of a learning curve but well work it in the end.

The good points are -
1) multi channel control of audio & video.
This is very powerful as it allows you to have up to 3 tracks of video (& 3 of audio) and placing tracing transitions is real easy

2) transitions - lots of and loads of plugins around
Also performs realtime rendering of the tranistions. Makes working on the video really easy

3) Titler - really nifty, fair few themes to choose (like wedding )

4) Sound editing - really easy & logical to get your head around. Great for effects and fades.

5) Can drag and drop a load of photos onto a video channel. Premier will render them by showing each for a few secs.

Bad points -
1) no auto detect of scenes. This might be added in the latest version (pro).

2) not great support for dvd - you get a lite version of some crappy dvd creator product - best off get your own for this.

3) Slow conversion from DV to Mpeg 2 (for DVD)
Note you can improve this by downloading an updated encoder from the third party that Adobe use - for free

I've only really scratched the surface from an amatuer perspective - but a great product to use. And the gotcha - 700 bucks - lot of money - have a go at the eval version of ye are curious.


IF you're into something a bit more lightweight you could try Dell Movie Studio Plus. My mate got it with his Dell. Full of wizards and hand holding - good for simple quick stuff.

DeVore

How easy is it to do more then just transitions? can you merge areas of two video streams and continue playing etc?

Been thinking about trying my hand at a 3 minute extreme-sports video for Boards.


DeV.

Jim

have a mac? get final cut pro, or express. costly though.

davil

Just like the MAC itself. Don't waste your money. Windows is almost as good as Mac OS and the PC hardware is easily as good if not better. I won't lie - the MAC is probably better for Video Editing [final cut pro is a great program as far as I can see] but the PC can do it without much hassle at all and costs about a quarter of the price. If you're willing to pay through the nose go for the MAC though.

I've used Adobe Premiere 6.5 myself and found it excellent in most areas except, as said, DVD production, but you should get your own solution for that anyway. It's a video editing product primarily and its transitions and the ability to overlay is all I want because I am a beginner. I still believe that you can do all the pro stuff on a pc. If I am wrong then I apologise to all you MAC users out there.

pickarooney

Pinnacle Edition (Pro) is the donkey's whatsits, for a few nicker under a grand (with AGP card) or 600 blib (without). The DVD editing and burning part is very solid and all integrated nicely.
Looks a lot prettier than Premiere 6.x too, though I haven't seen Premiere Pro yet.

Gordon

I'm sure you're right davil. I use a 500 mhz iMac with Final cut Pro, it does fine although the renders take frickin ages to do. Make sure you have a bitch fast computer with a hefty chunk of RAM, although I hear that the later versions of FCP have behind the scenes rendering.

What exactly do you mean by merging two streams DeV?

DeVore

well basically I'd like to do a bit more then the "Wedding Video" style transitions between one bit of video and the next.... I was thinking about playing around with some special effects and what have you. you know freezing things in the background and having only the foreground move or overlaying one bit of video onto part of the other.... etc ("masks" is that what they are called?)

DeV.

Gordon

You mean like blue screen type thing? Cut out a person walking from a scene in a street and paste the person onto a mountain side with a snowboarder screaming towards him? Or a square of footage within a square of footage? If it is the former then I think that would be tricky to do on FCP although I have the old version, if it is the latter I don't think it should be a problem. I'll startup FCP in a day or so when I get settled into my new place (I found a flat), but give me a more exact idea of what you mean, I can't quite visualise what you are talking about.

Or maybe someone else would be better to answer this. Btw Dustaz should be a fount of knowledge on this board.

bambam

green screen stuff is called Chroma Key (or just Keying). Done easily in Premiere. For video overlays, easy, as far as I can see - using the different video tracks - and also you can define masks (in photoshop) and use them. have a read here http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ashley.middleton/dtv/adobepremiere/premiere_tutorials/premiere_tutorial7.htm

On the note of dvd production - I had a play around with Adobe Encode - again bula bos for Adobe, an absolute winner of a program - very powerful and easy to pick up. You can create menus and burn dvd's in a couple of mins. Lots of pro level stuff like region encoding and macrovison - you know the stuff we all dislike

lodgepole

Adobe Premiere is my personal favorite, and when used in conjuntion with Sound Forge, Adobe After Effects and Photoshop it's pretty much capable of anything.

We use Avid in college with the beta decks and I don't like it even half as much.

mycroft

Is a bit out of your league there devore. I know the stuff you mean, and that roams into seriously expensive kit, and serious amounts of time.

Hugh_C

Originally posted by DeVore
well basically I'd like to do a bit more then the "Wedding Video" style transitions between one bit of video and the next.... I was thinking about playing around with some special effects and what have you. you know freezing things in the background and having only the foreground move or overlaying one bit of video onto part of the other.... etc ("masks" is that what they are called?)

DeV.

you need an avid, mate.

Avid

For the serious amateur, I think they've a free version of a basic cutter, but the professional software is awesome.

It is THE industry standard.

I've been using it for about 10 years and haven't used anything even vaguely comparable in terms of ease of use and capabilities.

I would suggest that you learn the skills of editing first before ploughing into effects work, you'll only get blinded by technology and won't be sufficiently aware of narrative thread etc etc. Effects work will inevitably look sh1t if it's created on cheap/nasty software.

Brush up on your cutting, then think about effects.

Dustaz will corroborate.

hC

innisfree

Hmm... mostly solid info, but would like to add a few things.

Premiere doesn't limit itself to just 3 video and 3 audio tracks. You can add more if needed. I wouldn't touch the thing if it had only 3.

If you're mentioning Avid in terms of being an industry standard and in a league of its own, you gotta mention Discreets uber-expensive editing packages also (Combustion, Fire, etc). They're beginning to take over from Avid in a lot of film houses and definitely have a strong grasp in the industry nowadays.

Nothing too important, but those points just niggled me a little.

Hugh_C

Originally posted by innisfree
If you're mentioning Avid in terms of being an industry standard and in a league of its own, you gotta mention Discreets uber-expensive editing packages also (Combustion, Fire, etc). They're beginning to take over from Avid in a lot of film houses and definitely have a strong grasp in the industry nowadays.

Combustion is lacking as a cutting tool, brilliant for compositing and other effects work, but absolutely not a cutting tool. Couldn't cut butter!

As regards Discreet, I have only experience of flame* and inferno and have never used fire. Sadly though, Discreet's policy of charging their customers extortionate prices makes most of their products inacessible to ordinary Joes. flame* is amazing at what it is designed for, but if i need to cut something, an Avid is what I'll use. Also, Discreet, unlike Avid, has effectively banned 3rd party storage solutions using software, and charge an arm and a leg for a Discreet-badged disk array. Avid, on the other hand, don't support 3rd party devices, but you can still hook 'em up and the system will work.

Combustion is becoming popular in post houses because it is relatively cheap, therefore buyers are often prepared to purchase enough licences and cheap staff to perform boring, tedious and repetitive tasks like wire removal or clean-up. Ain't for cutting though...

hC

Jim

perhaps a bit odd, but what the suite with all the sharks?

Hugh_C

Originally posted by Jimeatsmenu
perhaps a bit odd, but what the suite with all the sharks?

huh?

lightworks? heavyworks?

innisfree

Hughchal - but, I was lumping Combustion together with the other Discreet products and not citing it on its own. It goes with Flame, Flint, Inferno and all those. It's released by Discreet also.

DRakE

FCP is the only reason to own a Mac nowadays.

I hadn't used one until the start of this year, and by jesus it's a whole lot easier and more friendly to use than premier 6.5


FCP! That said, Dustaz tells me avid the "the shít"

Dustaz

Originally posted by hughchal

I would suggest that you learn the skills of editing first before ploughing into effects work, you'll only get blinded by technology and won't be sufficiently aware of narrative thread etc etc. Effects work will inevitably look sh1t if it's created on cheap/nasty software.

Brush up on your cutting, then think about effects.

Dustaz will corroborate.

hC

The above is the truest thing youll read on this forum so far. Its also said by someone who should know as hes one of Ireland, if not Europes best editors (thats a pint for me hugh )

Editing is much more about pace and 'feel' than cheap effects. Its something that can only really be learned properly by doing. god knows, im still learning and i get paid for it.

Effects can add to a cut but they can just as easily detract and distract, especially if there is no real reason to use an effect other than just "WHOA, LENS FLARE!"


Also, Avid > *

mycroft

lightworks? heavyworks?

Yes it's light/heavyworks, had the misfortune to be working on it earlier in the year, one of the most annoying, obtuse, purposefully complicated expensive systems in the world.

Generally only used by old film editors cause the interface is based around the old steenbeck interface.....

Storage and filing are even worse, arranged in a very literal series of doors, and folders, which is okay again if your understanding of computers is very basic, but for this generation (editors and assistants who grew up with computers) it's unneccessarily complex and doesn't obey basic computer rules, and logic that you've learnt file handling on a mac or pc

Although in the PR they say it's making a comeback, I pray it ain't true.

Innsfree, yup the whole discreet thing is true, I don't know of a single post house who use them for cutting (unless it's a very effects heavy commerical, where most of the designing and mapping is being done in the suite), it's avid all the way.

DeVore

You guys know like... LOTS

Please welcome the only person I know who edits video and doesnt work in a porn shop: Dustaz... you're new Moderator.

DeV.

Dustaz

Fear

dangerman

Effects can add to a cut but they can just as easily detract and distract, especially if there is no real reason to use an effect other than just "WHOA, LENS FLARE!"

Yeah, very true, remember the simpsons where Homer is making the dating video for flanders? 'Ok Star Wipe, star wipe, starwipe and then starwipe ....'

i've used premier for cutting 3ds max anims and found it very good, i found it quick to get the basics down etc.

BTW. If anyone has any DV equipment they'd like to donate to me, let me know. For no other reason other than I can't afford it myself.

angelofdeath

great forum, bout time someone did an av forum, anywho i dabble in cs movie making and i use videomach, acdsee32, divx, rostrum (great little piece of freeware for paning and zooming bitmaps, use it for end credits), whats the best tool for adding effects, thats easy to use?:)

Dustaz

After Effects is fairly easy to get to grips with and it can do some interesting things.

Video Vegas is another one, i think theres a trial version of that.

Hugh_C

Originally posted by DRakE
FCP is the only reason to own a Mac nowadays.

I take it you're not keen on Mac. OK so not everybody is perfect

Panther (OS X / 10.3) is simply unparalleled as an operating system. Stuff just works effortlessly.

[ASIDE]

I concede though, that games aren't as easy to come by, but there again my years of gamerdom have sadly passed, having been superceded by a precocious pair of kids who ask hard questions ALL THE TIME.

After a few interruptions of 'Dad, why is that guy lying on the ground with blood pouring out of his neck?', I hung up my calloused thumbs and retreated to the safe world of Monsters Inc.

[/ASIDE]

Happy cutting.

Oh and Dustaz, your cheque's in the post...

hC

Miguel_Sanchez

I'd recommend Avid Film Composer or Express. Final Cut Pro is catching up fast though.

Avid is the industry standard AFAIK.

mycroft

Film composer is fine if you have about oooohhhh €70 Grand. And comparing film composer to express doesn't help. One is a jumbo jet the other is a golf gti. And you don't go down to the shops in a jumbo jet, it's not pratical. The best editing software is the one that suits your needs. You want simple cheap, go with Premier, more advance FCP or express, effects go with discreet, and serious editing check out media composer or if it's a film composer.

I think annoucing which is the best is silly, it depends on what you use and always remember "knowing how to use avid/FCP/premier does not make you an editor, knowing how to edit makes you an editor, and you should be flexible and learn to adapt to different platforms.

Meanwhile has anyone actually heard or used the film option in FCP4? They claim it's "true" 24fps editing, but the technical explanation I heard is that it's a fools gold version. Mind you that hasn't stopped Walter Mursch cutting cold mountain on it.

Also has anyone used avid "news" I hear thats what RTE newsroom use.

Theres a very good article on why "scrubs" is cut on FCP here

http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec03/novdec03_scrubs_fcp4.html

bambam

interesting article, could any of you A/V heads care to explain some ot the terms for the layman ?

+ diff between online and offline
+ effects like tracking ??
+ trimming
+ what kind of res does Super-16 give

BTW, these guys work with awesome hardware. Best I've dealt with is round robin into twin Sun Starfires

lodgepole

+ diff between online and offline

Quality and hence speed and space. And the main factor, which relies on both speed and space, and that's money. Offline editing is cheaper because the quality is lower, so you can get creative with time to spare. Online is more expensive but is top quality. You do an offline edit, create an Edit Decision List and send that and all your (labeled and time coded) tapes to the online editor who does the whole job sans creativity in a short amount of time. That was a shockingly bad explanation, but you should get the idea.

Hugh_C

Originally posted by bambam
interesting article, could any of you A/V heads care to explain some ot the terms for the layman ?

+ diff between online and offline
+ effects like tracking ??
+ trimming
+ what kind of res does Super-16 give

BTW, these guys work with awesome hardware. Best I've dealt with is round robin into twin Sun Starfires

Offline uses low resolution (i.e. heavily compressed) pictures which have low storage overhead and therefore you can fit hours of footage onto a drive. Offline is where creativity, experimentation, long hours, frustration and success/failure happens. Offline pictures shouldn't be broadcast because they'll look cr@p. Offline (Avid) machines are cheaper than online machines.

Online uses full resolution tv pictures and has a heavy requirement for storage. Online droids generally receive either a sequence or edl to plug into their machine, press the "GO" button and feed in the tapes. It is not generally considered to be creative (a horribly misunderstood and misused word), and the job is more suited to left-brain types. Online machines are expensive.

I guess I've been a little disparaging about online, but in the bad old days of linear editing, that's where I cut my teeth. Online is also where a whole bunch of keying, effects and titling is done, and these skills in themselves can be finely honed, which is what separates good online editors from bad. Good online editors also suggest remedies for foobars that bad offline editors hav emade.

Tracking is a technique used by effects bitches to invisibly replace one item in a scene with another, or introduce a new item to appear as if it was always in the scene. Tracking involves selecting an item already in a scene, getting the tracking software to find that set of pixels in every frame, and create a mathematical table which describes where that item is. Using this table, you can "glue" on new things that were never there, or fix things that shouldn' be there.

Trimming is simply adjusting an edit. If a cut happens visually too soon, then make it later. Trimming is the fine tuning of an edit.

Super 16 gives amazing resolution for TV work. Pretty good for low-budget feature work too. With the improvement in film stocks, it is getting more difficult to differentiate between 16 and 35.

hth

hC

Miguel_Sanchez

Originally posted by mycroft
Film composer is fine if you have about oooohhhh €70 Grand. And comparing film composer to express doesn't help. One is a jumbo jet the other is a golf gti. And you don't go down to the shops in a jumbo jet, it's not pratical. The best editing software is the one that suits your needs. You want simple cheap, go with Premier, more advance FCP or express, effects go with discreet, and serious editing check out media composer or if it's a film composer.

I think annoucing which is the best is silly, it depends on what you use and always remember "knowing how to use avid/FCP/premier does not make you an editor, knowing how to edit makes you an editor, and you should be flexible and learn to adapt to different platforms.

http://www.editorsguild.com/newsletter/NovDec03/novdec03_scrubs_fcp4.html

Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??

Personally if I was investing in an editing system (which I hopefully will be doing in a year or so) I would go for a Final Cut Pro on a Mac G4 (or 5). Premier in my experience is grand but in the end will drag you down if you're trying to edit anything major on it. So if you are investing in a whole new set up then FCP is the way to go.

I agree that learning different platforms is a good way to go and obviously knowing how to use certain packages does not an editor make. I know people who can use FCP, Film Composer and have even edited on an old flat bed Steinbeck but still aren't editors because they lack the basic timing and intuition.

mycroft

Point taken I suppose. Does Avid Film Composer really cost that much??

What most people don't factor in on the cost is the peripherals, For the cost of Film composer you get, film composer. You're also going to need, media storage (avid drives), a deck (beta sp, dat machine, etc) Not to mention the cost of upkeep and repair, it's why most productions rent, in the short term it's cheaper, and if something breaks down you're not responsible and the facilties house is you rented it from has to fix it.

Has anyone had any joy working with FCP outside of it's firewire input? Most people I know have had serious issues trying to digtize using a breakout box, they keep losing video signal. If you're using or planning on getting FCP and thinking about digitizing of anything other than dv thru firewire, I understand you need to invest in about €2500 worth of kit to make it work

Lump

WOWOWOW..... Final cut pro is the buzz word atm. I've used it on a new G5 (the fastest computer on earth apparently, and it stinks of monkey píss in my opinion. I've also used Avid 8000, Avid Media composer, Sony Es3, Sony Es7, Discreet Logic Edit*, and I have bought my own Pinnacle Pro Edition 5 which I love.


To say Avid is user friendly is a bit of a lie really. I like avid and I agree its the industry standard. But all of the other mentioned have everything to hand..... I've worked changing between "Consumer" suites and pro edit suites (Avid) and I find the change difficult. I think if you were a constant avid user it would be fine, but takes you a few minutes to get your head around it wehn you sit down.

I dislike FCP because everyone is talking about it since the new version came out.... FCP has been around for a while. It seems its got a media boost. I've worked with it and cant see any difference to my Pro Edition 5, takes a while to render as was already said.


Pro Edition 5, does most things realtime, black and white, colour correction, 2d editor and 3d editor. This means it will preview realtime meaning you only have to render on your export. Good for me cause I work with a director that likes his B+W etc etc.


That is all.... will add more later, but I need to go to the Hospital


John

Lump

Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000


It's the daddy.

John

Dustaz

Just to clarify about Film Composer (actually i may be wrong about this but im pretty sure this is the way it is). Film Composer is only really a set of film options which can be added on to any avid to turn it into a film composer. So you can have a Media Composer with Film options or Symphony with Film options etc.


In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative. Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film*










(er, i think. Hugh correct any glaring errors )

mycroft

Oh an avid film composer isn't anything compared to Avid Symphony...... Costs in the region of £100,000

Again that all depends on what you're trying to do. If you're finishing on film theres little point in Symphony cause all it's fancy grading tools don't matter a damn cause the lab will handle that infinitely better. It's all about the right tool for the job. Also one of the largest post houses in this country has final cut pro linked to it's symphony and their onliners will often switch to working on it for certain tasks, they feel FCP is better at certain stuff than symphony

In this day and age, You dont really need film options unless your doing a full blown feature. Its entirely possible (and practical) to offline at 25fps and get the labs to use the 25fps list to work out how to cut your negative.

The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.

Then you only need to harmonise the sound track so that it runs at the equivalent speed of the projected film

Speaking as a poor bastard who once had to do this. It's not an easy task and you're never given enough time to do.

Even in this day and age when you finally do your neg cut (finally cut the film to match the picture, years ago it was an irreverisble process) and now you can re edit your neg, you just don't want the precious neg handled too much.

Dustaz

Originally posted by mycroft
The process is called matchback, and I don't know of a single professional quailty film editor who would use it, it gives them the screaming heepy jeebys to think that some lab tech in england is guessing which frame is the correct one. Only ultra cheap features go for this option, it's a complete headf**K and speaking from experience having exhausted and precious director and editor franticaly nervous about the cut matching at such a late and vital stage is about as much fun as having your fingernails puckled out and then eating a bag of salt n vingear crisps.

I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds

Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard?

Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?

mycroft

I dont think any features would go down this road. Ive done it once or twice for shorts and it worked out ok. The harmonisation went ok too. I Usually only deal with film for tv so it was a lot less painless of a transition without consulting someone like SoC or ER every ten seconds

Yeah I was brought onto a movie when it was found out the assistant and editor had set it up not noticing it was set for 25fps not 24fps...... n:mad:

Anyway, the future is high def, havent you heard?

Praise Jesus....... The current fad route and I think it will stay this way for a while, is shoot 35m HD telecine to HD, dub to digi or sp for the offline, go to the HD for a conform for previews...... The big boys on major films still like to sit back after the shoot and watch projected film and probably still will, but thats one of the first things to go if the budget is tight..... But I doubt HD will replace film anytime soon.

Which post house uses FCP btw? screnscene?

Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony......

Hugh_C

Originally posted by mycroft
[B
Yeah they've got one networked to their symphony...... [/B]

I dod a job on their symph on Saturday and no mention was made of FCP. Are you sure?

Symphony is an end-of-the-line piece of gear as far as I know...

mycroft

Symphony suite in their other building?

The big swish one?

The workstation docked beside the symphony next to the mixer is a G4 with final cut pro networked to the symphony....

Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........

One of their assistants is still a good friend and assures me my information is correct.

Dustaz

Originally posted by mycroft

Screen scene aren't lavish spenders and they'd never install a bit of kit they don't use........

Would any post house do that?

mycroft

I know at least one post house that has alot of hi def equipment which is rarely if ever used.

They got it to keep up with the Jones as it were....

Never equate money with common sense.....

Lump

Mycroft pointed out that it might be good to sticky this thread. Feel free to add your opinions about editing software, Audio or Visual, that you've used.

John

highdef

I've just upgraded to Ulead Video Studio 9 after using video Studio 7 and 8 in the past. All I can say is that for value for money and features, it's unbeatable. As I had older versions of the program, I got a 50% discount on the upgrade to version 9. Cost was only $50USD!
I created a 30 min documentary on the area where I live last year on version 7. Video was shot a 3 chip DV camera. Sold over 600 copies of it on DVD so it can't have been that bad.
The latest version which I downloaded (can be purchased as a boxed version too) is fantastic. It has full 16:9 support, chroma keying, rubber banding of audio. MWV HD support, video pan & zoom, Overlay Mask Support, DVD burning capabilities including motion menus. It does a hell lot more than that. Check out the ulead website for more details (I don't work for them BTW )
I've used Premiere 6.5 and although it's very comprehensive, VS9 will do everything I need to do for a fraction of the price and it has some features not in Premiere 6.5.

delanest

Hi anybody used VideoWave® 7 Professional.

I'm new to editing but really enjoy it. I want to do cutting and some effects but nothing specific yet. At the moment I'm using a free cutting tool. Its ok, the only features are cutting, transitions and two sound files.

The product above is only 50 euro. Is it worth it or should I hold out for something better. I'm not quite ready to spend 700 euro just yet

delanest

I'm also thinking of doing an online video editing FAS course. The course uses MGI VideoWave 5.

Is this a good product ? info and price etc ?

thanx

Lump

Not really an editing programme, but for copyright and downloadable music...

Here: http://creativecommons.org/

John

StOnY_ToNy

Depending on what you want to do, there are several programs on the market for audio and visual editing. the best all round programme, ie. one thats good for both, would probably be steinbergs Nuendo application.

mycroft

StOnY_ToNy wrote:

Depending on what you want to do, there are several programs on the market for audio and visual editing. the best all round programme, ie. one thats good for both, would probably be steinbergs Nuendo application.

I've never heard of this product or seen it used professionaly, in video post production, screen shots suggest it a protools with some minor video editing whistles. .