Eircom Staff Briefed, no refunds for Porn Dialler Victims.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by Ripwave
I think this is a job for "Jooooeeeee Duuffffffyyyyyyyy!!!!" - I'm fairly sure that he's covered the €2000 phone bill issue, and he's probably more influential than anyone in the print media in this sort of area.

But you would never get anyone to go on his show. No one would be brave enough to say "I spent €2000 looking at porn".

Gerry Ryan would get more mileage from it.

spongebob

Call it a Browser Hijacker, the generic term.

You get diverted to Porn sites, Competition sites, Quiz sites , any pretext will do to make you click .

If you click Yes you divert, if you click No you divert anyway, it is a technlogical form of entrapment and extortion .

Eircom are awar eof where the extortion takes place and have raised their charges to make a killing from it. They aid and abet international fraud and extortion.

Comreg lets them away with it because Comreg do not care about the consumer or small business who have modems in their PC's and who are at risk from this activity.

M

Ripwave

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
But you would never get anyone to go on his show. No one would be brave enough to say "I spent €2000 looking at porn".

I'm pretty sure he's had those callers.

But you're missing Mucks point - he's claiming that eircom are profiting from these people by deliberately increasing the tariff for these countries. Even if people are actually deliberately and knowingly looking for porn, is it acceptable that eircom should be profiting from their activities to this extent?

"Eircom - are they making more from porn than anyone else in Ireland?"

dahamsta

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
No one would be brave enough to say "I spent €2000 looking at porn".

Stupid. The word you're looking for is "stupid". Still though. Muck, fire one of those diallers at me.

adam

rmacm

Originally posted by Muck
Call it a Browser Hijacker, the generic term.

You get diverted to Porn sites, Competition sites, Quiz sites , any pretext will do to make you click .

If you click Yes you divert, if you click No you divert anyway, it is a technlogical form of entrapment and extortion .

Eircom are aware of where the extortion takes place and have raised their charges to make a killing from it. They aid and abet international fraud and extortion.

Comreg lets them away with it because Comreg do not care about the consumer or small business who have modems in their PC's and who are at risk from this activity.

M

It is a bit rich accusing eircom of aiding fraud/extortion. I am aware that if you clcik either the yes or no option that the suspect software will be installed but its up to the user to remove it after. If they leave it on their machine I'd say they got what they deserved. Again its not eircoms problem when a user through either ignorance or stupidity allows such software to remain on their machines. Also as has been pointed out the places these diallers call are expensive places to reach e.g. they require a satelite phone. Eircom do publicise their call charges for these areas in their phone book and its up to the user to be aware of it.
Cheers
Rory

spongebob

Originally posted by rmacm
Also as has been pointed out the places these diallers call are expensive places to reach e.g. they require a satelite phone. Eircom do publicise their call charges for these areas in their phone book and its up to the user to be aware of it.
Cheers
Rory

NO , I clearly linked to the Vartec prices earlier in the thread , so Read Them Again , note the cheapest Band 13 is €0.58 with Vartec (Wallis) and the average Band 13 cost is €1.30 . Eircom Charge €3.61 which is almost 3 times as much as Vartec. No Vartec prices come close, not one. They are NOT expensive destinations per se, except when Eircom reckons they can gouge you for the calls on credit.

NO, they are not sat phone destinations , any of them .

NO, Eircom do not publish their charges in any of their phone books any more.

Next !

M

Ripwave

Originally posted by rmacm
It is a bit rich accusing eircom of aiding fraud/extortion. I am aware that if you clcik either the yes or no option that the suspect software will be installed but its up to the user to remove it after. If they leave it on their machine I'd say they got what they deserved. Again its not eircoms problem when a user through either ignorance or stupidity allows such software to remain on their machines. Also as has been pointed out the places these diallers call are expensive places to reach e.g. they require a satelite phone. Eircom do publicise their call charges for these areas in their phone book and its up to the user to be aware of it.

I fully agree with the point that eircom isn't responsible for people installing these diallers. But I think there is a valid case to be made that eircom shouldn't be charging exhorbitant rates, significantly above the actual cost of handling thses calls, and that for them to do so borders on "aiding and abetting".

Of course, if eircom claims that they need all that money to pay for the people that they need to handle the calls from users complaining about €700 bills..........

spongebob

Originally posted by Ripwave
Of course, if eircom claims that they need all that money to pay for the people that they need to handle the calls from users complaining about €700 bills..........

If they argued that with me I would be stumped , it is a supremely symmetrical argument !

M

vibe666

Originally posted by rmacm
If they leave it on their machine I'd say they got what they deserved. Again its not eircoms problem when a user through either ignorance or stupidity allows such software to remain on their machines.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that RatCon are fully aware that the types of people are the non computer savvy, ignorant ones and that they are purposely taking advantage of that ignorance by extortionately overcharging people for it.

crawler

Folks,

Latest twist on this...

There is a very unpopular person selling low end ( 486's and Pentium 1's ) "basic internet ready PC's" - the browser is already configured to dial premium rate to gain net access. Being sold for €99 or less.

Sad thing is that "newbies" to the internet tend to spend hours on end using it for the first few weeks - by the time the first bill arrives it has run into 1000's!!

I have told the people that need to know who he is - advertises in "buy and sell" along with the honest dealers.....

There are words for people like that!!

bricks

If what you actually get through to is not in one of these remote countries how can you be charged for it?
And if they are in a remote coountry then how do the pornsters make loads of money out of it, I mean wouldn't the money go to the various telecoms companys routing the call?
Why does it help the fraudsters to be located furthur away?
If someone rang one of our premium rate numbers from Australia the premium rate company here wouldn't get anything extra would they?

Victor

Originally posted by bricks
If what you actually get through to is not in one of these remote countries how can you be charged for it?

It may be routed through or even "virtually" routed through.

Originally posted by bricks
And if they are in a remote coountry then how do the pornsters make loads of money out of it, I mean wouldn't the money go to the various telecoms companys routing the call?

Much but not all. The recipient of the call is likely to be a small telecoms company on their own right. In this case, Eircom is making more than 50% of the money (certainly compared to Vartecs price).

Originally posted by bricks
Why does it help the fraudsters to be located furthur away?

These countries may not have the suitable legal resouces to "control" the internet. By being "further away" they (the pr0nsters) get a cut of the higher call charge.

Originally posted by bricks
If someone rang one of our premium rate numbers from Australia the premium rate company here wouldn't get anything extra would they?

They proabably wouldn't get through as it's a premium number. They have been working on an EU wide system though.

Our man in Havana

I think this explains it all http://www.pornsitedialers.com/

See also http://www.pornsitedialers.com/dialerrates.htm Calls from Ireland earn the pornsers 32.3 US cents a min.

For a laugh check http://www.pornsitedialers.com/dialerfaq.htm

Is this form of revenue legal?
Of course! Dialers have been around for years and are completely above board and legal. They work along the same sort of lines as premium rate telephone numbers and The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) are the governing legal bodies that keep an eye on the industry and ensure just that, just don't use the term free in any of your promotional activities. Please see our terms and conditions for more info.

Mad Mike

Mr. Bond that link you just posted has really upset me.

For some reason I assumed that the people responsible for porn sites and the paraphenalia that goes with them were illiterate grubby little men. That site you linked to tells the lie to that. It is a very friendly, well presented and thoroughly businesslike site - encouraging the use of the porn industry to rip off vulnerable people.

Urban Weigl

"Is this form of revenue legal?
Of course! Dialers have been around for years and are completely above board and legal. They work along the same sort of lines as premium rate telephone numbers and The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) are the governing legal bodies that keep an eye on the industry and ensure just that, just don't use the term free in any of your promotional activities."

BrianD

The biggest problem with this issue is that the residential customer may be unaware of the call charges for 60 days (based on a two monthly billing). When the customer gets the shock of their life upon opening the bill they may be liable for more calls that will eventually appear on the following bill.

A raft off calls to Band 13 should be classed as unusual activity on an account. It seems that these problems could be overcome by an Eircom rep as soon as unusual activity is noted. The monitoring of phone bills can be done automatically - I understand that they already do it for business and for the circle discount schemes they run for residential customers.

Surely, this would be the best way for Eircom to take a proactive stance in preventing this problem that ultimately benefits nobody. Even Eircom don't benefit from these calls as many customers will either refuse to pay or take a long time to pay. Many will never install a fixed line again.

spongebob

Originally posted by BrianD
The biggest problem with this issue is that the residential customer may be unaware of the call charges for 60 days (based on a two monthly billing).

A raft off calls to Band 13 should be classed as unusual activity on an account.

The fraud prevention function in Eircoms billing system should pick it up within a week and inform the customer, at €216 an hour Eircom shoulda made a few quid by then and they should be happy with it.

60 days of porn dialing could bankrupt people!

M

Floater

Originally posted by Muck
NO , I clearly linked to the Vartec prices earlier in the thread , so Read Them Again , note the cheapest Band 13 is €0.58 with Vartec (Wallis) and the average Band 13 cost is €1.30 . Eircom Charge €3.61 which is almost 3 times as much as Vartec. No Vartec prices come close, not one. They are NOT expensive destinations per se, except when Eircom reckons they can gouge you for the calls on credit.

Comparing France's state controlled incumbent with Ireland's debt exhausted ex-state controlled rip-off:

France Telecom charges (to eircom band 13 countries incl VAT) eg Diego Garcia, Cook Is, Tuvalu, and Papua New Guinea etc. range from EUR 1.14 per min peak to 94 cents offpeak. People who have signed up for the FT Option Plus discount scheme pay 75 cents/min. Compared with eircom's EUR 3.61 / min.

Roughly in line with the difference in call charges between Ireland and France.

France Telecom to Ireland 22c/peak 12c/offpeak 10c/anytime with Option Plus.

eircom to France: 38c/peak 33c/offpeak 29c/weekend.

http://www.agence.francetelecom.com/vf/accueil/aide/prix_communications/international.shtml


Floater

Ripwave

Originally posted by Floater
Comparing France's state controlled incumbent with Ireland's debt exhausted ex-state controlled rip-off:

Some mishtake shurely!

Eircom is far from being debt-exhausted. Valentia borrowed billions to buy eircom, and apparently the plan is to use eircoms income and revenue to pay those billions on valentias behalf, but it's Valentias debt, not eircoms. (Eircom recently paid a "dividend" of over €500 million to it's owners - that's about 200 quid from every household in the country!).

SkepticOne

AFAIK, Valentia did put in a fair amount of cash but the bulk of the debt was technically incurred by Eircom itself. Eircom bought back its shares from the original shareholders and took on debt.

Moriarty

Im not exactly sure why i never moved this earlier. Never the less, its moved now. To nets/comms. Funnily enough.

Floater

Originally posted by Ripwave
Some mishtake shurely!

Eircom is far from being debt-exhausted. Valentia borrowed billions to buy eircom, and apparently the plan is to use eircoms income and revenue to pay those billions on valentias behalf, but it's Valentias debt, not eircoms. (Eircom recently paid a "dividend" of over €500 million to it's owners - that's about 200 quid from every household in the country!).

It doesn't matter which entity books the debt. At the end of the day the interest has to be paid and the capital repaid. The only source of this cash is the eircom customer base. It is either paid directly by eircom on its own debt or paid by way of dividend to the holding company who pass it on to the lenders.

The bottom line is that the money is gone and there is nothing left for serious capital investment in the networks. And now it seems that the company will stop at nothing - even porn dialling rackets to generate cash?


Floater