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Eircom Staff Briefed, no refunds for Porn Dialler Victims.
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21-10-2003 11:03am#1Some of you may have come across Browser Hijacking software. Eircom certainly have so they created a special Call Band , Band 13 (or the Rest of World band as they delicately called it
) into which they grouped the Porn Dialler countries and only the Porn Dialler countries and then upped the charge for ringing them to €2.25 a minute at all times. Here is a Recent Example of the damage they cause.
The number of complaints about these and the bills they hit people with is apparently staggering at the moment, many of the Browser Hijackers (they typically appear in PoPup windows) leave the user no way out, if they click stupidly YES in the popup window they get a Porn Dialler and if they 'cleverly' Click NO they get a Porn Dialler anyway. They are not knowingly installed and cost MORE than a Premium 15xx line which is heavily regulated and restricted to 25 mins max call length. Some self install like the Blaster worm.
Eircom profits on their revenues to places such as Vanuatu , Diego Garcia and Sao Tomé is now well over €1 m a Month. A special team has been put in place to deal with the inevitable billing query escalations. If woman rings this team she is told her husband or boyfriend was surfing for porn....not true in many if not most of these cases. If a man rings they blame the wife, if a couple have kids they blame the kids. etc. In actual fact it could have been installed with no user intervention like the Blaster worm but Eircom, as a matter of policy, tries to embarass the victims into paying by blaming other memeber of their household for something that THEY DID NOT DO ! Apart from the cost they often leave accusations flying about for months.
Band 13 should be an OPT IN band only, if you really need to ring these countries you will know why in advance. Then you can ring Eircom and opt yourself in if you are the account holder.
As the USO is under its final (mini) review before becoming fixed in stone for the next few years, you should send your Comments to Comreg on or before friday the 24/10
info@comreg.ie
cc to:
sinead.devey@comreg.ie
Subject = Control Of Expenditure Section in Eircom USO , Browser Hijack Software and Band 13
Dear Comreg.
Please do something about these Band 13 countries, they should not be normally available to be called unless the account holder has knowingly opted IN to ring them . Eircom has rigged its charges at €3.61 a minute to these countries which are well known Browser Hijack destinations without exception. Persons are incurring staggering bills because of Eircom greed and Microsofts buggy software in combination.
Eircom invidiously charge more to these countries than they do to any Premium 15xx number. Comreg has so far failed to bring this matter under the Control of Expenditure section of the USO or to take into account the damage being caused to families and individuals...not just financially.... by these diallers. Families are left to deal with the cost and also with recriminations about surfing Porn sites where NO SUCH activity took place. The Premium number regulator (Regtel) caps calls to 15xx numbers at €25 max while these Band 13 countries are unrestricted length calls and actually cost more to call per minute. It is possible to incur a charge similar to the CAP imposed by your fellow regulator in a matter of 7 minutes, day or night, to these Band 13 numbers.
Browser Hijacks are generally carried out unknown to the victim. Eircom then have a policy in place whereby they accuse the victim of indulging in unsavoury activities. They will not refund the call costs incurred by the victims. This must stop now. In your current review of the USO you may do so under the control of expenditure principle.
I expect a principled response from Comreg.
Yours Sincerely
J Public esq.
M0
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Have we confirmation of this...? Let's not go down the lawsuit routeOriginally posted by Muck
A special team has been put in place to deal with the inevitable billing query escalations. If woman rings this team she is told her husband or boyfriend was surfing for porn....not true in many if not most cases. If a man rings they blame the wife, if a couple have kids they blame the kids. etc. In actual fact it could have been installed with no user intervention like the Blaster worm but Eircom tries to embarass the victims into paying.
Personally, I would think that the people are just unlucky, and no, eircom has no responsibility to relieve them of their burden, but any company with any sense of customer service would make some sort of gesture of goodwill. I'm sure there are plenty of poor souls with hundreds or even thousands of euros worth of calls on their account. Vodafone and other companies actually freeze accounts if they notice anomalies - Hundreds of euros of calls in a week when the average bill is €50/month for example - so the customer has to ring in to confirm they know that they're creating these huge bills.
But of course, this is eircom.
I would also urge everyone to email Comreg on this matter.0 -
The Eircom Official Safe Surfing page is Here and contains a link to software which is supposed to protect the Family and keep y'all safe, that Filtering Software page leads Here
None of the Programs on that page will stop a Porn dialler from Installing, safe surfing me arse
, who wrote this watered down bilge.
Firewalls and Anti Virus programs are normally unable to stop Porn Diallers even if both are spanking new and bang up to date with their patches.
The only software that can usually deal with them is stuff like Spybot Search and Destroy and Adaware or other Trojan spotting software which should be installed on your Box in ADDITION to
1. A Good firewall
2. A GOOD antivirus program and
3. A Content checker for kids such as Netnanny
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Originally posted by Muck
Some of you may have come across Browser Hijacking software. Eircom certainly have so they created a special Call Band , Band 13 (or the Rest of World band as they delicately called it ) into which they grouped the Porn Dialler countries and only the Porn Dialler countries and then upped the charge for ringing them to €2.25 a minute at all times. Here is a Recent Example of the damage they cause.
The number of complaints about these and the bills they hit people with is apparently staggering at the moment, many of the Browser Hijackers (they typically appear in PoPup windows) leave the user no way out, if they click stupidly YES in the popup window they get a Porn Dialler and if they 'cleverly' Click NO they get a Porn Dialler anyway. They are not knowingly installed and cost MORE than a Premium 15xx line which is heavily regulated and restricted to 25 mins max call length. Some self install like the Blaster worm.
Eircom profits on their revenues to places such as Vanuatu , Diego Garcia and Sao Tomé is now well over €1 m a Month. A special team has been put in place to deal with the inevitable billing query escalations. If woman rings this team she is told her husband or boyfriend was surfing for porn....not true in many if not most of these cases. If a man rings they blame the wife, if a couple have kids they blame the kids. etc. In actual fact it could have been installed with no user intervention like the Blaster worm but Eircom, as a matter of policy, tries to embarass the victims into paying by blaming other memeber of their household for something that THEY DID NOT DO ! Apart from the cost they often leave accusations flying about for months.
hmmm €1m a month, eh? From where in the sky did ye pull that figure from, Muck?
Have you thought that Eircom have Band 13 in place for far off Pacific and Indian Ocean locations, that can only be reached by satellite phone? They are dear places to ring, because they are far removed places. And thats why the pron dialler people choose these places to dial to.
The price could be less, for sure.
In the UK, a 5 minute daytime call to Diego Garcia is £6.76 or €9.70, the eircom equivilent is €18.03
As for the porn diallers, they got them on the PC because mammy/daddy/kids have been naughty. They've just been niave/dumb. Take the medicine.
TBH, your mail to Comreg is a rant, and it just looks like a someone who has been stung by a porn dialler.
This is a thread calling for Eircom to be Big Brother and Mammy all at once. Wow.
And 1550 calls are not capped at €25, AIUI, if the call goes beyond €25, if there is a live person at the other end, they must inform the caller that its gone beyond that, around 30 mins.
To add on Pete's comment, did I mention society? This is a phone call, not traffic lights! I said in this thread and the one last year, its user opt out, they dont restrict the number you dial, unless you ask them to. 0 -
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Originally posted by DMC
hmmm €1m a month, eh? From where in the sky did ye pull that figure from, Muck?
A guy called Alan in Winback
Have you thought that Eircom have Band 13 in place for far off Pacific and Indian Ocean locations, that can only be reached by satellite phone? They are dear places to ring, because they are far removed places. And thats why the pron dialler people choose these places to dial to.
Wallis costs €0.58 a Minute through Vartec if you care to look Here , Eircom charge €3.03 MORE than Vartec. Vartec charge an AVERAGE of €1.30 to this band at all times. Thos e rates are available to ANYBODY in Ireland and bear comparison unlike your UK figures. Vartec are a lot smaller than Eircom and still make a profit on those rates.
The price could be less, for sure.
In the UK, a 5 minute daytime call to Diego Garcia is £6.76 or €9.70, the eircom equivilent is €18.03
Diefo Garcia DOES NOT exist, the whole country code has been sold off to the scum. It is impossible to ring a Diego Garcian on Diego Garcia because the Brits kicked them off years ago and handed the whole island to the Yanks as a B52 base. So....what business does anyone have ringing it then, Fr. Paddy simply ain't there!
As for the porn diallers, they got them on the PC because mammy/daddy/kids have been naughty. They've just been niave/dumb. Take the medicine.
Frequently because they installed Eircom.Net software that had not been properly configured to deal with Active X......but I am not blaming Eircom.Net for this.
TBH, your mail to Comreg is a rant, and it just looks like a someone who has been stung by a porn dialler.
What would you ask Comreg, Dear Comreg , please DOUBLE the charges in Band 13 otherwise these people will never learn? Dont tell us your solution, tell Comreg. You have till friday.
This is a thread calling for Eircom to be Big Brother and Mammy all at once. Wow.
This is a thread telling Eircom to stop abusing their position as one of the dominant and certainly as the single most pervasive Credit institutions in Ireland. They have over 1 Million Credit Arrangements in place. Even capping the calls is better than the current arrangement which is totally open ended. My suggestion is opt in, you ring Biddy and Biddy turns Band 13 on. Then its Caveat Emptor, you asked for it by asking for it to be turned on.
And 1550 calls are not capped at €25, AIUI, if the call goes beyond €25, if there is a live person at the other end, they must inform the caller that its gone beyond that, around 30 mins.
It is not open ended, Band 13 is open ended with no warning flags. It costs MORE than any premium number ...... you may disable premium number dialling at NO extra cost at ANY time by ringing 1901.
To add on Pete's comment, did I mention society? This is a phone call, not traffic lights! I said in this thread and the one last year, its user opt out, they dont restrict the number you dial, unless you ask them to.
This is one of the sickest forms of Illegal Money Lending that there is. Then the victims are all being told that it is entirely their fault.
Nor may you include Band 13 in the Eircom discount schemes, funny that ?
They then have 15 days to pay in full for this unwanted credit , at least the plastic allows you to spread the pain .
As for the morality of the whole thing Should I sign you up for a couple of Credit Cards you (probably) cannot actually get and then leave you sort out the refusals on your credit record ? I know you never asked for the Credit but what the heck
Get Real!
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Originally posted by vibe666
Eircom don' make the software, they only distribute it. I'm sure you know who makes Internet Explorer, so I'll leave it at that.
The software is sent out by Eircom.Net on a CD. It is configured in a particular way once it installs on your PC. But anyway.
In any other activity you could think of, if the person partaking in said activity does not properly understand what they are doing due to a lack of understanding (read: ignorance) and something goes wrong the only person who is responsible for that is themselves.
Down at the local pharmacy one day I handed over a list of pharms including Dexedrine and MethAmphetamine. She looked at me in a most peculiar and unwarranted manner. I said YO! , I have the right to do this if I want , she picked up a phone and I simply legged it.
I legged it because I understood, knowwhadddddImean like
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Originally posted by Muck
Originally posted by vibe666
Eircom don' make the software, they only distribute it. I'm sure you know who makes Internet Explorer, so I'll leave it at that.
The software is sent out by Eircom.Net on a CD. It is configured in a particular way once it installs on your PC. But anyway.
M
It's a default configuration using ieak-'cept for the branding and some favourites added to the list...0 -
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Originally posted by DMC
I'm not standing up to eircom as regards the charges of Band 13, but I strongly believe that they, or any other phone company for that matter (you've seen BT's charges) provide a service that allows me to make a call to anywhere in the world from my phone. Your rant to Comreg is nothing less than a one-man campaign to stop denying me the freedom to dial these numbers if I wished to.
My solution is the status quo. Yes, it could be cheaper, yes, you could ask Comreg to investigate these charges, but you cant or let you deny me the right to ring Band 13 places.
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes: Ah yes, FREEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDOOOOOOMMMMM ! sez DMC. :rolleyes:
My position is simple but must evidently be spelt out for the slow learners again God !
My suggestio sez you can ring Biddy anyyYYyytime you wish and opt in to calling Band 13 and then exercise your "freedom" .
As it happens you must also get a pin for a 1590 number which costs less per minute than Band 13. Are you saying that PINS on 1590 numbers interfere with your Freedom too DMC. If not WHY not .....just to see if I can help steer you into the path of consistency like ?
The Premium Number Regulator requires that PIN be there. You "strongly believe" that you have a right to ring those countries:D . I never said that you should be denied the right, only the right NOT to be inadvertently diverted there, read my comments please and quote where I said otherwise ?
Band 13 may remain at the curent price. I did not say they should change it / reduce it ...........did I , read my comments please and quote where I said otherwise.
Did I ask Comreg to "investigate" the price itself, where? Read my comments please and quote where I said it.
No attribution without quotation in future please DMC , you have your own forum where you can do that if you wish
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Are you talking about eircom or eircom.net?Originally posted by Muck
Add to that their loathsome practise of pointing the finger indiscriminately within families where in fairness there is no specific blame at all....in order to keep their ill gottten gains.
If you mean eircom.net then I happen to know for a fact that eircom.net techs are told specifically not to tell people the specifics of how these things get on their PC's, and should never say that they are specifically from visiting porn sites.
Typically what would normally be said is, that 'these things can get on to your PC by either clicking on a link or viewing an email (not necessarily pornographic) that would then most likely without the users knowledge install something that would change the number the user is dialling.'
If you were told differently than that and visiting porn sites was specifically mentioned than you may well have a case for defamation of character against the rat, as you know it's not always a case of specifically surfing to a site to end up with these things on your PC.
that said, if you did there are ways of finding out these things and you'd have to submit your PC for examination, and trust me there are things on there that not even professional software can completely remove, so you better be sure about how they did get there.
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DMC, Muck, I think you may have to agree to disagree.
You could poke holes in eachother's arguments all night and get nowhere.
Both of you know better than attacking the poster instead of the argument btw.
btw Muck, I'll need clarification on this:
Speculation, or by official directive of managment?A special team has been put in place to deal with the inevitable billing query escalations. If woman rings this team she is told her husband or boyfriend was surfing for porn....not true in many if not most of these cases. If a man rings they blame the wife, if a couple have kids they blame the kids. etc. In actual fact it could have been installed with no user intervention like the Blaster worm but Eircom, as a matter of policy, tries to embarass the victims into paying by blaming other memeber of their household for something that THEY DID NOT DO ! Apart from the cost they often leave accusations flying about for months.0 -
My last points on this, seamus.
I never said that you suggust a reduction in the prices of Band 13 calls. That was my suggestion.
By your suggestion of opting out, you are stopping me from directing dialling that number. You want to make me ring a biddy to get it turned back on, denying me the chance to direct dial that country wihout interference from my phone company. Remember, all numbers; 15xx, 18xx local and national calls are by default available, it is for you to choose what number you want blocked.
Hell, lets return to manual exchanges and A-B coinboxes..
As for making to play on me saying freedom, I wont go that low.No attribution without quotation in future please DMC
Sure. Name your sources to see if you are not telling us porkies. But I dont think you will. Eircom billing data is sooo vague. 0 -
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Did I mention a refund either?
I suggested a systemic non intrusive approach, remove them all from the normal international outdial set and let the account holder opt in as they see fit, if they want one Band 13 country they get them all. !
Eircom will make its administrative overhead for an opt in back in 2 MINUTES at the rates they charge to these destinations.
The other alternative is a fraud control system but some of these systems disconnect periodically and therefore tend to stay below the radar for some Fraud Control systems, especailly a bi-monthly billing system such as the Eircom one. Fraud control systems are supposed to snoop on your traffic, that may offend Libertarianism 101 fans such as DMC even though its there to protect him. Fraud control software benefits certain users because the heuristics may spot an odd pattern in some cases but not in others. The opt in is more straightforward and far less nosey.
Business users also get billed monthly so they would be aware of the fraud sooner, a residential user could be clobbered for 60 days of dialling in a worst possible case. Waiting for your bill is twice as risky for a home user which is also unfair, can we therefore be billed monthly if we use the Internet or is that a bit too costly for Eircom .......to even out the risk of course.
It begs the question......what was the worst case you ever heard of (ex or including VAT if you remember the details ) O Inside One. The worst case I personally heard of clocked up €7000 Ex Vat in 12 days or so. Most are only €500 or €600 or so, a night out in Dublin would cost ya that
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