i F**king hate that Horseface

cournioni · 23-09-2003 11:31AM

Originally posted by p.pete
Oh!, I see, your taking the "short of memory" approach. United actually didn't do all that much wrong at the weekend, twas all Arsenals fault. However in the past United have been is situations where people have been pushed and similar things happened.

Yes, with Keane and Cantona (maybe a few other small incidents which) but I definately do not remember ever seeing a United player push a referee. Yes they crowded around a few referees to protest a decision but they never physically pushed any referees. Tell me when something similar to Sunday was caused by United last? I can't remember anything like that happening since the Keane, Shearer thing a few years back. You tell me.

BKtje · 23-09-2003 11:51AM

-snip-
The FA is seekign swift resolution and is expected to bring charges today or tomorrow.
Keown is believed to be facing 2 charges of misconduct and Parlour one. It is anticipated Laure and Cole will be charged with violent conduct for appearing to confront opponents physically, an offence which carries a minimal 3 match ban. Lauren is understood to be under investigation for an allegation of "phystical intimidation" of a match official after apeparing to make contact with an assistant referee.
-snip-
Further charges are possible thought some players are expected to escape with fines and cautions. However, Keown had been booked and any further caution - the likely minimum punishment for his over the top celebrations of a missed penalty by Ruud Van Nistlerooy- would earn him a one match ban. United will not escape censure either and the conduct of several of their players, notably Gary Neville, who appeared to swing a punch at ray Parlour after the final whistle.
If the FA decides to bring charges against several players Arsenal may also be indicted under rule E21a for failing to control their players. In extremes this can result in points being docked.
-snip-
The pair [Van Nistlerooy and Viera] were seperated by team mates almost half an hour after the final whistle with Viera still incensed that he had been sent off.
-snip-
The FA will investigate claims that the pair had to be restrained from confronting each other after the game.
The Arsenal captain had waited to talk to talk to the dutch man at the end only for the striker to stride past him. some 25 mins later Van Nistlerooy emerged from the home dressing room willing to talk only for Viera to refuse.
-snip-
"im not a cheat" said van nistlerooy.
"Really, so i touchhed you then, did I?" retored Viera only for united striker to sneer "You have no class".
That comment enraged Viera to such an extent he had to be held back by colleagues as he shouted "If you come any closer i'll smack you and put you down properly this time"

^^ From todays Irish Times. If you want the rest i suggest you buy it

Right first off i stuck ' ' around assaulted as i didn't believe it was an actual assault but somethign a little less serious but couldnt think of the word.

I'll reserve any further comment i think till after the FA's decesion.
Nice to see Viera resort to threats tho even if Ruud was being an ass.

p.pete · 23-09-2003 11:53AM

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
You tell me.

Ferguson was sent off as recently as their last Newcastle match. Other then that I don't make a habbit of carrying a photographic memory of ManU misdemeanors (unfortunately neither do most of their supporters). I'll have a look and see if I can find anything for you though...

BKtje · 23-09-2003 11:54AM

Ferguson was 'sent off' for giving out to the 4th official not for violent conduct or anything similar which is what i think Pornapster was asking you to give evidence for. I suggest you read his post again paying close attention to..

Tell me when something similar to Sunday was caused United last?

Don't think ferguson's sending off is in the same country (let alone ballpark) as what happened on Sunday.

p.pete · 23-09-2003 11:59AM

Cheers for the article B-K-DzR.

In regard to my response to Pornapster, yep, it was only for a verbal assault on the official. I said in my post that I would make an effort to find something more substantial.

Can Arsenal cope with several players being suspended similtaneously? Certainly I think they can absorb bans on Keown and Parlour but any more and it gets tricky. They will miss Viera.

The Muppet · 23-09-2003 12:01PM

The Arsenal Chairman has slammed his players for the indefensible actions on Sunday. He must be a biased United Supporter Too.:D Its a pity he has to do the Managers job as well as being Chairman.

p.pete · 23-09-2003 12:02PM

Originally posted by The Muppet
The Arsenal Chairman has slammed his players for the indefensible actions on Sunday. He must be a biased United Supporter Too.:D Its a pity he has to do the Managers job as well as being Chairman.

It's good that somebody at the club came out with the statement.

The Muppet · 23-09-2003 12:46PM

It's good that somebody at the club came out with the statement.

True, but it should have come from the Manager instead of the crap that did after the Match. I suppose we should be glad he actually admitted seeing anything.:D

p.pete · 23-09-2003 12:48PM

Originally posted by The Muppet
True, but it should have come from the Manager instead of the crap that did after the Match.

Yes you did point that out in your last point...

GuanYin · 23-09-2003 12:48PM

See my earlier post is ignored.

By your own arguments are you going to condemn Fortune and Neville for their actions on Sunday?

Hello?

p.pete · 23-09-2003 12:52PM

Originally posted by sykeirl
See my earlier post is ignored.
By your own arguments are you going to condemn Fortune and Neville for their actions on Sunday?
Hello?

True but it's more important what the FA think then manu supporters. Hopefully they will take a balanced view.

The Muppet · 23-09-2003 01:00PM

By your own arguments are you going to condemn Fortune and Neville for their actions on Sunday?

If thats directed at me I am and I also condem Ruud for his exaggerated actions if your interested. None of it excuses what followed.

GuanYin · 23-09-2003 01:20PM

Thats good Muppet, nice to see a football supporter showing some clarity regarding his/her team.

I agree, I said at the start, the book should be thrown at Keown, but especially at Ashley Cole.

For the record, Fortunes and Nevilles actions are part of what followed.

yop · 23-09-2003 03:14PM

but especially at Ashley Cole

I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

jesus_thats_gre · 23-09-2003 04:04PM

Originally posted by yop
I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

I personally think Ashley Cole is a little scumbag... Keown is jsut stupid i think..

GuanYin · 23-09-2003 04:07PM

Originally posted by yop
I would have seen monkeyboy keown as been more guilty than Cole, why u think Cole is worse?

Cole was a good bit away and basically took a swipe at Ronaldo because he got the better of him most of the afternoon. Ronaldo wasn't really involved in the scuffle and Cole just made a bee-line towards him to cause trouble.

yop · 23-09-2003 04:24PM

Ronaldo wasn't really involved in the scuffle and Cole just made a bee-line towards him to cause trouble

Missed that one.. if they spot it they will not be too impressed with him.

So you now have Lehmann, Viera, Keown, Parlour, Lauren, Cole
then Fortune, 2 * Nevilles.

thought the FA were only looking at 5 arse players, wonder who they are leaving out.

So if you take it going on the pictures..!!

Keown - jumping up and down like a fool. should not be banned.
Cole - intent? - 1 match
Lauren - was it a push or nudge. - should get away with it
Parlour - push, rose his hands so 1 match
Viera - 2 yellows - 3 match?
Lehmann - eating the face of the linesman, common practise, should be ok

Neville * 2 - punching? , pushing - 1 match
Fortune - did not see that.......

GuanYin · 23-09-2003 04:28PM

Vieras two yellows is wortha one match ban
I'd say seeing as he was out of the equation at the end, he's not counte din the "in-famous 5".

The Muppet · 23-09-2003 06:42PM

For the record, Fortunes and Nevilles actions are part of what followed.

I honestly have not seen these actions but have seen reports on them . There was so much turmoil on the pitch it was easy to miss things. If The two retaliated they shouldn't have. If G neville punched someone he deserves whatever punishment he gets.

RVN IMO exaggerated his reactions and that was unnecessary.
I dont believe his over reaction had any bearing on the sending off. From the point the ref saw Viera lifted his leg he deserved to walk . This was before ruud jumped out of the way.

Thats good Muppet, nice to see a football supporter showing some clarity regarding his/her team.

Unfortunately as is evident in this thread it is a rare occurance here.

Dustaz · 23-09-2003 09:23PM

Originally posted by The Muppet
. We all know that RVN was assaulted ,we all know that Arsenal Stepped ove th mark of acceptable Behaviour and we all know The Man U players acted in a veryrestrained and Professional Manner

Calm down there sparky, no-one was 'assualted'. I didnt see you shouting this loudly when Keane admitted to pre-meditated assault on Haaland. That IS indefensible.

I Pretty much agree with Yops assesment of the punishments but actually i think laurens push was worse than he says and probably deserves something. Lehmann did touch the referee and i wouldnt be suprised if he recieved a match or two ban.

The Muppet · 23-09-2003 09:33PM

Calm down there sparky, no-one was 'assualted'. .

RVN was assaulted byat least two arsenal players , Keown and Parlour.

I didnt see you shouting this loudly when Keane admitted to pre-meditated assault on Haaland. That IS indefensible

Did you not Why was that ?

what relevence has it to last Sunday. Keane helped to defuse the first incident the on Sunday but i dont see you mentioning that.

BTW i,m perfectly calm thank you.

Dr Bolouswki · 23-09-2003 10:34PM

Man, this is mental...

Does no-one think it was just handbags at dawn?

I mean, remember that famous photo where you have keane and the the Man U possy haraunging the ref? Lots of jostling, same as Sunday but you Man U fans seem to forget that? Or Keanes tackle on Haaland, where he admitted to not going for the ball (in fairness though, didn't he get a ban for that)?

How about the scuffle after the last game at old trafford season just gone? Same thing, pushing and shoving etc etc - points deducted bans at that one? No.

I think its great that these great rivals fire themselves up so much. Its swings and roundabouts. I think the arsenal fans need to admit to their poor disciplinary record - I don't think its a huge cause for concern though. Even if Utd had the same record I'd still just consider it a bit of a laugh and a good reason to poke fun at them and their supporters - but screaming 'assault' and demanding bans, points reduction? C'mon... better than kind of passion than a boring Liverpool 1-0 win or my beloved Man City leaking 5 goals at home to Arsenal...

The incident in question made an otherwise average game exciting - I don't think Ruud is holding any grudges about it and I'd imagine the players (from both teams) couldn't give a fiddlers about all this...

ANd kids - some objectivity please. If it was Leicester v. Bolton you wouldn't give a fruck... I think many of you need to take a step back from who you support and try to view the incident for what it really was - a bit of overblown passion in the heat of the moment...

I'm big enough to recognise that despite Man City's start to the season, that we are ****e defensively and that many times we commit fouls, behave aggressively and can be less (far less) than perfect on the pitch. It's all part of football.

Objectivity. The sooner some of you stop pontificating about who stuck who's finger up who's arse, the better for all of us...

bizmark · 23-09-2003 11:32PM

RVN did what comes as normal to us all ......He jumped out of the way of a foot to the nuts in all fairness how the hell could you blame him ???

What AFC did was stupid and unsportman like and they should be punished

Dr Bolouswki · 24-09-2003 12:25AM

What AFC did was stupid and unsportman like and they should be punished

Punished how? Are you fcking high? NOTHING HAPPENEND!! A bit of push and shove... it happens all the time except maybe not in such high profile matches. You all should maybe watch more than a couple of matches a year. Its so totally blown out of proportion. If the crap was on the other foot (and UtD had done the pushing and shoving) I'd say the same things...

Granted Van Nistleroy acted innoucously I thought - a totally natural reaction to someone trying to kick you - and his turning to the ref was something most players would also do - but to suggest arsenal should be 'punished' - how? A possible after-the-fact yellow card maybe for someone possibly, but other than that it's a storm in a teacup...

get some perspective will ye's!

Dustaz · 24-09-2003 09:43AM

Originally posted by The Muppet
RVN was assaulted byat least two arsenal players , Keown and Parlour.

No he wasnt, He was pushed and shoved a bit. Thats not really assault (Whatever the dictionary definintion might be). If you're too young to remember then look at some football prior to 1993 and you'll see a few things that are closer to assault.

what relevence has it [Keanes challenge on Haaland] to last Sunday. Keane helped to defuse the first incident the on Sunday but i dont see you mentioning that.

The relevance it has is that was a pre-meditated incident and one which keane gloated about. The entire debacle on sunday was fuelled by hot tempers and fairly instant reactions, not 4 years of planning. Theres a difference and i think its ironic that people are using words like "assault" and "indefensible".

The Muppet · 24-09-2003 10:11AM

No he wasnt, He was pushed and shoved a bit. Thats not really assault (Whatever the dictionary definintion might be). If you're too young to remember then look at some football prior to 1993 and you'll see a few things that are closer to assault.

Definition of assault = attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact .

It might suit some to cahge the definition of assault but there it is and it describes perfectly how RVN was assaulted Sunday. I have been watching football since the sixties and I have never seen anything like I saw after the match on sunday. I,m afraid You can not change the meaning of the english language to suit your argument.

The relevance it has is that was a pre-meditated incident and one which keane gloated about.

It has absolutly no relevance to Sunday Events , Its in the past and Keane has served his punishment for it.

Theres a difference and i think its ironic that people are using words like "assault" and "indefensible".

Alanssmith said after the match Sundat it was Indefensible i have also seen kenny sansom say the same. The Arsenal chairman mad similar comments. Where the Irony in that.

GuanYin · 24-09-2003 10:21AM

I still think the Arsenal players should be punished for disrepute along with Fortune and the Nevilles (how very Wenger-ish that so many Utd fans didn't see it). However, I think individual fines to the players involved is enough.

Reading an article, it appears that Van Nist fell in the box after the penalty miss (as lauren dispossed him and cleared) and that it was this that caused the angry reactions by the Arsenal players. I haven't seen it yet, so I'll look with interest later. Even still it doesn't justify the reaction.

I read an arsenal biased article this morning, didn't quite buy all of it so I checked newspaper reports. When considering the punishment, I'd like people to consider the past meetings between these two teams:

FA2003: Van Nist goes through Viera in the first 3 minutes and invokes clashes with Keown and Lauren (the former was 50:50 imho). Was unpunished.

Old Trafford Feb 2003: Phil Neville commits at least 3 dangerous, bookable tackles (inluding a two footed challenge from behind). Is given man of the match and praised for his commitment.

Old Trafford Dec 2002: Van Nist punched Ljundberg in the stomach, which is caught on camera, referree missed it, no action by the FA.

Old Trafford May 2002: Van Nistelrooy, comes of the bench and immediately starts push-and-shove with Martin Keown.

cournioni · 24-09-2003 10:29AM

Right, I'm fucking fed up of you ABU's trying to make excuses for Arsenal and trying to shove the blame onto Man Utd. Arsenal were totally at fault for what happened on Sunday. Yes the Neville's did have a go at them but that was only self defence (did you see Lauren holding Phil Neville by the throat?!) no I suppose you didn't. As for Vieira... Studs in the back my arse. He was just pissed off at his first yellow card and failed to calm down. He should have kept his head and he would have finished the game on Sunday.

Keown is a scumbag, plain and simple. He can't handle anyone winding him up like RVN has been doing over the years. And he DID HIT RVN on the back of the head with his forearm intentionally, Cole was shoving him, Lauren was shoving him and Parlour took a swing at him. 4 vs. 1?! Yeah that is the Arsenal way alright. I think Fortune and Lehmann will get away for their incidents on Sunday because unlike the others, it was during play and both the referee and the linesman had seen what happened. They didn't deal with them during the match so I'd doubt if they'll get suspended.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 24-09-2003 10:32AM

Originally posted by The Muppet
Definition of assault = attempt to inflict offensive physical contact or bodily harm on a person (as by lifting a fist in a threatening manner) that puts the person in immediate danger of or in apprehension of such harm or contact .

It might suit some to cahge the definition of assault but there it is and it describes perfectly how RVN was assaulted Sunday. I have been watching football since the sixties and I have never seen anything like I saw after the match on sunday. I,m afraid You can not change the meaning of the english language to suit your argument.

Unfortunately there Muppet you have just condemned RVN with your own words. There was no effort made to play the ball and as such he assaulted Viera, still nobody, least of all the Man U fans, is harping on about that.

Half an hour after the match in the Tunnel RVN and Viera were squaring up to each other and had to be broken apart, this was mentioned by officials to the FA and this will be investigated too. Where was RVN's legendary compsure then ??

There are no ABU's here trying to defend Arsenal, what people are trying to do is make the argument more balanced and not have the usual Man U fans letting their mouth run away with them while completely disregareding anything perpetrated by members of their chosen team. Something I believe most Man U fans have accused Wenger of here.

GuanYin · 24-09-2003 10:33AM

I think you need to review the previous posts pornapster. Most people here including myself, feel that arsenal should be punished.

However, the "poor defenseless innocent Man Utd" cries, just don't wash.

For teh record, you seem to havemissed the fact that while Phil Neville had a hand around his throat, it was Gary Neville who threw a punch, and who wasn't being threathened at the time. The ironic thing about it is that Parlour is good mates with alot of the Utd players.

i F**king hate that Horseface

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