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Sports/cycling awards (split off from Sam Bennett thread)

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    #2
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    I'm not surprised at all tbh


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    #3
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

    BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

    Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


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    #4
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

    BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

    Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


    Multiple European, World and Olympic cycling champions on the list. I wouldn't be rue-ing Sam's omission, our most successful and medalled cyclists didn't make the shortlist either....


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    #5
    Weepsie
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,203 Mod ✭✭✭✭Weepsie


    General public would likely value a world title over stage victories which outside cycling fans mightn't seem to be significant.

    It's Shane Lowry's to lose you'd think.


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    #6
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    eeeee wrote: »
    Multiple European, World and Olympic cycling champions on the list. I wouldn't be rue-ing Sam's omission, our most successful and medalled cyclists didn't make the shortlist either....

    You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?


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    #7
    Ceepo
    Registered Users Posts: 2,552 ✭✭✭Ceepo


    Weepsie wrote: »
    General public would likely value a world title over stage victories which outside cycling fans mightn't seem to be significant.

    It's Shane Lowry's to lose you'd think.

    I'd love to see Shane get it. But I can see past the countrys favourite sports woman Katie Taylor.

    Disappointing not to have Sam in the top 10 after his fantastic year.


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    #8
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?

    Our most successful cyclists ever are Katie George Dunlevy and Eve McCrystal. Olympic, multiple world and European medals. They're the most successful athletes on that list.
    It's not Sam's omission I'm rueing.


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    #9
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    eeeee wrote: »
    Our most successful cyclists ever are Katie George Dunlevy and Eve McCrystal. Olympic, multiple world and European medals. They're the most successful athletes on that list.
    It's not Sam's omission I'm rueing.
    Olympic medalists in 2019?

    I think the more conditional an event (tandem para-cycling) the more likely it won't feature as high in the minds of voters.


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    #10
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Olympic medalists in 2019?

    I think the more conditional an event (tandem para-cycling) the more likely it won't feature as high in the minds of voters.

    Rio.

    They are our most successful cyclists.
    I see enormous para tandem as a much, much, much bigger challenge than a male pro.
    The sport is set up and structured entirely for that Male, able pro for the entirety of our sport.
    I mean male pro's have had a minimum wage for how long? And 70+% of the (very new, I think 2 years old in its current form?) Women's world tour have to work other jobs to support their racing.
    And that's before you add a disability to the mix.
    Finding a pair of people to work so well together it's so rare- when one is partially sighted, as in she cannot see where she's going, compete trust in her partner- imagine that! - and women to boot! It's a massive, massive achievement.
    Huge.
    Consider the support and privilege in sport of the Male pro, and consider Katie George and Eve's success without any of that and, undoubtedly impressive as Sam's achievements are, and they are impressive, they pale in comparison to what Katie George and Eve have achieved in my opinion.


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    #11
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?

    Yes, I'd have Mageean there over Bennett. But I'd have him there over Seamus Callanan maybe. I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.

    I'd still pick other cyclists before Bennett, Felix English for example.

    Surely this is more about picking people that the wider public appreciate? Athletics is still substantially more popular than cycling. You only have to spend time in Morton Stadium to see that.

    Remember, they nominate horse jockeys for this award and that's not even a sport.


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    #12
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

    BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

    Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!

    I'd also point out re Rea, that BBC NI have their own awards which are NI specific and Rea won it in 2017.


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    #13
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    Weepsie wrote: »
    General public would likely value a world title over stage victories which outside cycling fans mightn't seem to be significant.

    It's Shane Lowry's to lose you'd think.

    Yes. Or perhaps Katie


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    #14
    harringtonp
    Registered Users Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Yes. Or perhaps Katie

    Katie Taylor I mean


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    #15
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    harringtonp wrote: »
    Katie Taylor I mean

    She had it in 2012 though. Think that'd be a little unfair. I'd say Lowry would take it.


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    #16
    J Madone
    Registered Users Posts: 623 ✭✭✭J Madone


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    She had it in 2012 though. Think that'd be a little unfair. I'd say Lowry would take it.

    You play golf, you don't play boxing or cycling for that matter


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    #17
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    eeeee wrote: »
    Rio.

    They are our most successful cyclists.
    I see enormous para tandem as a much, much, much bigger challenge than a male pro.
    The sport is set up and structured entirely for that Male, able pro for the entirety of our sport.
    I mean male pro's have had a minimum wage for how long? And 70+% of the (very new, I think 2 years old in its current form?) Women's world tour have to work other jobs to support their racing.
    And that's before you add a disability to the mix.
    Finding a pair of people to work so well together it's so rare- when one is partially sighted, as in she cannot see where she's going, compete trust in her partner- imagine that! - and women to boot! It's a massive, massive achievement.
    Huge.
    Consider the support and privilege in sport of the Male pro, and consider Katie George and Eve's success without any of that and, undoubtedly impressive as Sam's achievements are, and they are impressive, they pale in comparison to what Katie George and Eve have achieved in my opinion.
    Nominations are based on 2019 achievements. They were nominated in 2016 for their results in Rio - deservedly so, but the award went to McGregor!


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    #18
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,191 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i don't understand a lot of these sports awards. surely giving someone an award for being a winner is redundant?

    'congratulations on winning the irish open, you win a prize for having won the prize!'
    (being a little facetious there, i know)


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    #19
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.
    Tinfoil hat? Eh, no.

    I simply point out that RTE are looking for 50/50 representation and willing to disregard the arguably better achievements of other sports people. I would point out similar if there were similarly successful women overlooked for the sake of finding another one or two men to make it 50/50.


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    #20
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i don't understand a lot of these sports awards. surely giving someone an award for being a winner is redundant?

    'congratulations on winning the irish open, you win a prize for having won the prize!'
    (being a little facetious there, i know)

    In the UK, it's the Sports Personality award. Wasn't Red Rum nominated one year?


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    #21
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Nominations are based on 2019 achievements. They were nominated in 2016 for their results in Rio - deservedly so, but the award went to McGregor!

    They became world champions again in 2019.
    Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport! Literally the best in the world for that year.
    I'd class that as a pretty big achievement!





    Also horse racing is definitely a sport, jockeys are incredible athletes!



    Ultimately cycling is a niche sport here, the award will always go to more popular sports. Even when Katie George and Eve won Olympic medals they didn't win.

    I also think the 50-50 gender spilt is incredibly important- if you can't see it you can't be it, and women's sport get fcuk all coverage, it's important incredible female athletes can get some coverage when they can it can.
    Same goes for para sport.


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    #22
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    eeeee wrote: »

    Also horse racing is definitely a sport, jockeys are incredible athletes!

    Apologies, ill considered attempt a humour on my part.


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    #23
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Tinfoil hat? Eh, no.

    I simply point out that RTE are looking for 50/50 representation and willing to disregard the arguably better achievements of other sports people. I would point out similar if there were similarly successful women overlooked for the sake of finding another one or two men to make it 50/50.

    Grand. So what's your problem with Ciara Mageenan? You definitely feel all the male nominee's accomplishment's are superior to hers?

    Also, the tinfoil hat comes in here:

    Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


    A panel of judges chooses the RTÉ award.


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    #24
    Taxuser1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭Taxuser1


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Yes, I'd have Mageean there over Bennett. But I'd have him there over Seamus Callanan maybe. I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.

    I'd still pick other cyclists before Bennett, Felix English for example.

    Surely this is more about picking people that the wider public appreciate? Athletics is still substantially more popular than cycling. You only have to spend time in Morton Stadium to see that.

    Remember, they nominate horse jockeys for this award and that's not even a sport.

    you seem to have two tinfoil hats on there Eee, eh :-)


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    #25
    brocbrocach
    Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭brocbrocach


    eeeee wrote: »
    They became world champions again in 2019.
    Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport!


    It's a very niche event in a niche sport and it's probable that only a few thousand people in the country know anything about it. On a personal level it's a tremendous achievement but the niche aspect means that it doesn't grab the headlines outside of a few dedicated followers.

    Sam and Dan and Nico have reached the top level in a sport where many thousands participate and many millions spectate. Personally I think that's more worthy of recognition with an award such as this.


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    #26
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Grand. So what's your problem with Ciara Mageenan? You definitely feel all the male nominee's accomplishment's are superior to hers?

    Also, the tinfoil hat comes in here:

    Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


    A panel of judges chooses the RTaward.
    Oh, I stand corrected on the voting - I thought it was a public vote like the UK.

    I've no problem with anyone on that list - your incorrect and out of line for assuming so. Its a huge achievement reaching a world final but, personal cycling bias perhaps, I would put Bennett's achievements above hers. Its a simple as that.

    There is discussion to be had on all listed nominees, and how niche some sports are, and about how deep the talent is in other sports... but that's for another day.


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    #27
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    eeeee wrote: »
    They became world champions again in 2019.
    Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport! Literally the best in the world for that year.
    I'd class that as a pretty big achievement!

    Ultimately cycling is a niche sport here, the award will always go to more popular sports. Even when Katie George and Eve won Olympic medals they didn't win.

    I also think the 50-50 gender spilt is incredibly important- if you can't see it you can't be it, and women's sport get fcuk all coverage, it's important incredible female athletes can get some coverage when they can it can.
    Same goes for para sport.
    I agree with all this.

    I would argue for separate male/female awards in order to recognise a greater number of athletes. If two athletes win the same discipline at next years Olympics, how can a judging panel say one deserves it more than the other? It would become something different like that X Factor/journey stuff and not about recogising actual sporting success.

    So, I suppose magicbasterder is right in a sense. Why award something for which that person has already been awarded a title? Yeah, maybe we don't need these awards after all!


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    #28
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    velo.2010 wrote: »

    I've no problem with anyone on that list - your incorrect and out of line for assuming so. Its a huge achievement reaching a world final but, personal cycling bias perhaps, I would put Bennett's achievements above hers. Its a simple as that.

    If you say so.


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    #29
    eeeee
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 6,841 Mod ✭✭✭✭eeeee


    brocbrocach wrote: »
    It's a very niche event in a niche sport and it's probable that only a few thousand people in the country know anything about it. On a personal level it's a tremendous achievement but the niche aspect means that it doesn't grab the headlines outside of a few dedicated followers.

    Sam and Dan and Nico have reached the top level in a sport where many thousands participate and many millions spectate. Personally I think that's more worthy of recognition with an award such as this.

    I would say that Katie George and Eve do the same sport as Dan, Sam et al, but with much, much less support, almost no pathway and with much better results. I don't see road and tt as niche events? That they're a para tandem doesn't make it a totally separate discipline imo.

    I don't think cycling has a big audience in Ireland, even Olympic medals don't win you the award!

    As magic says, it's a kind of pointless thing anyway, all of the athletes are excelling in their respective fields.
    It would be nice if it was used to celebrate those achievements gained in less favourable circumstances for exposure and support-I don't think GAA or rugby or football stars lack support in the way an Olympic champion female para athlete does.

    Other than that it's (the award) kind of pointless.


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    #30
    velo.2010
    Registered Users Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    If you say so.
    Thats just being a smart arse now.


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    #31
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Thats just being a smart arse now.

    Where do you want the debate to go. I say you’re doing one thing. You say you’re not. If you insist that’s your take on it then I see no point in continuing the debate. It’s going to get shut down by mods soon enough anyway it’s gone on so long.

    You’ve already told me I was out of order to suggest something. Now you’re saying I’m a smart arse. Not sure where else the debate can go except more name calling.


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