Sports/cycling awards (split off from Sam Bennett thread)

magicbastarder

Sam Bennett is surprise omission from RTE Sports Awards shortlist

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/sam-bennett-is-surprise-omission-from-rte-sports-awards-shortlist/

harringtonp

I'm not surprised at all tbh

velo.2010

Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!

eeeee

velo.2010 wrote: »

Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!

Multiple European, World and Olympic cycling champions on the list. I wouldn't be rue-ing Sam's omission, our most successful and medalled cyclists didn't make the shortlist either....

velo.2010

eeeee wrote: »

Multiple European, World and Olympic cycling champions on the list. I wouldn't be rue-ing Sam's omission, our most successful and medalled cyclists didn't make the shortlist either....

You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?

Ceepo

Weepsie wrote: »

General public would likely value a world title over stage victories which outside cycling fans mightn't seem to be significant.

It's Shane Lowry's to lose you'd think.

I'd love to see Shane get it. But I can see past the countrys favourite sports woman Katie Taylor.

Disappointing not to have Sam in the top 10 after his fantastic year.

eeeee

velo.2010 wrote: »

You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?

Our most successful cyclists ever are Katie George Dunlevy and Eve McCrystal. Olympic, multiple world and European medals. They're the most successful athletes on that list.
It's not Sam's omission I'm rueing.

velo.2010

eeeee wrote: »

Our most successful cyclists ever are Katie George Dunlevy and Eve McCrystal. Olympic, multiple world and European medals. They're the most successful athletes on that list.
It's not Sam's omission I'm rueing.

Olympic medalists in 2019?

I think the more conditional an event (tandem para-cycling) the more likely it won't feature as high in the minds of voters.

eeeee

velo.2010 wrote: »

Olympic medalists in 2019?

I think the more conditional an event (tandem para-cycling) the more likely it won't feature as high in the minds of voters.

Rio.

They are our most successful cyclists.
I see enormous para tandem as a much, much, much bigger challenge than a male pro.
The sport is set up and structured entirely for that Male, able pro for the entirety of our sport.
I mean male pro's have had a minimum wage for how long? And 70+% of the (very new, I think 2 years old in its current form?) Women's world tour have to work other jobs to support their racing.
And that's before you add a disability to the mix.
Finding a pair of people to work so well together it's so rare- when one is partially sighted, as in she cannot see where she's going, compete trust in her partner- imagine that! - and women to boot! It's a massive, massive achievement.
Huge.
Consider the support and privilege in sport of the Male pro, and consider Katie George and Eve's success without any of that and, undoubtedly impressive as Sam's achievements are, and they are impressive, they pale in comparison to what Katie George and Eve have achieved in my opinion.

Harrybelafonte

velo.2010 wrote: »

You'd seriously have Ciara McGeehan over Bennett?

Yes, I'd have Mageean there over Bennett. But I'd have him there over Seamus Callanan maybe. I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.

I'd still pick other cyclists before Bennett, Felix English for example.

Surely this is more about picking people that the wider public appreciate? Athletics is still substantially more popular than cycling. You only have to spend time in Morton Stadium to see that.

Remember, they nominate horse jockeys for this award and that's not even a sport.

Harrybelafonte

velo.2010 wrote: »

Pure tokenism in a couple of those nominees to achieve 50/50 gender representation. It seems an Irish cyclist will have to win the Tour or WC's to get a nomination.

BBC SPOTY similar. Folk up north going mad that that 5 time World Superbike champ Jonathon Rea was omitted after finishing a close second to Mo Farah a couple of years ago. The suspicion is that the BBC fear a potentially succesful organised voting campaign on behalf of Rea.

Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!

I'd also point out re Rea, that BBC NI have their own awards which are NI specific and Rea won it in 2017.

harringtonp

Weepsie wrote: »

General public would likely value a world title over stage victories which outside cycling fans mightn't seem to be significant.

It's Shane Lowry's to lose you'd think.

Yes. Or perhaps Katie

harringtonp

harringtonp wrote: »

Yes. Or perhaps Katie

Katie Taylor I mean

Harrybelafonte

harringtonp wrote: »

Katie Taylor I mean

She had it in 2012 though. Think that'd be a little unfair. I'd say Lowry would take it.

J Madone

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

She had it in 2012 though. Think that'd be a little unfair. I'd say Lowry would take it.

You play golf, you don't play boxing or cycling for that matter

velo.2010

eeeee wrote: »

Rio.

They are our most successful cyclists.
I see enormous para tandem as a much, much, much bigger challenge than a male pro.
The sport is set up and structured entirely for that Male, able pro for the entirety of our sport.
I mean male pro's have had a minimum wage for how long? And 70+% of the (very new, I think 2 years old in its current form?) Women's world tour have to work other jobs to support their racing.
And that's before you add a disability to the mix.
Finding a pair of people to work so well together it's so rare- when one is partially sighted, as in she cannot see where she's going, compete trust in her partner- imagine that! - and women to boot! It's a massive, massive achievement.
Huge.
Consider the support and privilege in sport of the Male pro, and consider Katie George and Eve's success without any of that and, undoubtedly impressive as Sam's achievements are, and they are impressive, they pale in comparison to what Katie George and Eve have achieved in my opinion.

Nominations are based on 2019 achievements. They were nominated in 2016 for their results in Rio - deservedly so, but the award went to McGregor!

magicbastarder

i don't understand a lot of these sports awards. surely giving someone an award for being a winner is redundant?

'congratulations on winning the irish open, you win a prize for having won the prize!'
(being a little facetious there, i know)

velo.2010

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.

Tinfoil hat? Eh, no.

I simply point out that RTE are looking for 50/50 representation and willing to disregard the arguably better achievements of other sports people. I would point out similar if there were similarly successful women overlooked for the sake of finding another one or two men to make it 50/50.

velo.2010

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't understand a lot of these sports awards. surely giving someone an award for being a winner is redundant?

'congratulations on winning the irish open, you win a prize for having won the prize!'
(being a little facetious there, i know)

In the UK, it's the Sports Personality award. Wasn't Red Rum nominated one year?

eeeee

velo.2010 wrote: »

Nominations are based on 2019 achievements. They were nominated in 2016 for their results in Rio - deservedly so, but the award went to McGregor!

They became world champions again in 2019.
Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport! Literally the best in the world for that year.
I'd class that as a pretty big achievement!





Also horse racing is definitely a sport, jockeys are incredible athletes!



Ultimately cycling is a niche sport here, the award will always go to more popular sports. Even when Katie George and Eve won Olympic medals they didn't win.

I also think the 50-50 gender spilt is incredibly important- if you can't see it you can't be it, and women's sport get fcuk all coverage, it's important incredible female athletes can get some coverage when they can it can.
Same goes for para sport.

Harrybelafonte

eeeee wrote: »

Also horse racing is definitely a sport, jockeys are incredible athletes!

Apologies, ill considered attempt a humour on my part.

Harrybelafonte

velo.2010 wrote: »

Tinfoil hat? Eh, no.

I simply point out that RTE are looking for 50/50 representation and willing to disregard the arguably better achievements of other sports people. I would point out similar if there were similarly successful women overlooked for the sake of finding another one or two men to make it 50/50.

Grand. So what's your problem with Ciara Mageenan? You definitely feel all the male nominee's accomplishment's are superior to hers?

Also, the tinfoil hat comes in here:

Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


A panel of judges chooses the RTÉ award.

Taxuser1

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Yes, I'd have Mageean there over Bennett. But I'd have him there over Seamus Callanan maybe. I find it more interesting that you picked a gender bias tinfoil hat theory rather than a GAA bias tinfoil hat theory.

I'd still pick other cyclists before Bennett, Felix English for example.

Surely this is more about picking people that the wider public appreciate? Athletics is still substantially more popular than cycling. You only have to spend time in Morton Stadium to see that.

Remember, they nominate horse jockeys for this award and that's not even a sport.

you seem to have two tinfoil hats on there Eee, eh :-)

brocbrocach

eeeee wrote: »

They became world champions again in 2019.
Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport!

It's a very niche event in a niche sport and it's probable that only a few thousand people in the country know anything about it. On a personal level it's a tremendous achievement but the niche aspect means that it doesn't grab the headlines outside of a few dedicated followers.

Sam and Dan and Nico have reached the top level in a sport where many thousands participate and many millions spectate. Personally I think that's more worthy of recognition with an award such as this.

velo.2010

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Grand. So what's your problem with Ciara Mageenan? You definitely feel all the male nominee's accomplishment's are superior to hers?

Also, the tinfoil hat comes in here:

Would RTE feel fearful of similar efforts by members of the cycling community here to get Bennett in the top 3? Surely not... but I wouldn't be surprised!


A panel of judges chooses the RTaward.

Oh, I stand corrected on the voting - I thought it was a public vote like the UK.

I've no problem with anyone on that list - your incorrect and out of line for assuming so. Its a huge achievement reaching a world final but, personal cycling bias perhaps, I would put Bennett's achievements above hers. Its a simple as that.

There is discussion to be had on all listed nominees, and how niche some sports are, and about how deep the talent is in other sports... but that's for another day.

velo.2010

eeeee wrote: »

They became world champions again in 2019.
Apart from the Olympics that's as big as it gets in sport! Literally the best in the world for that year.
I'd class that as a pretty big achievement!

Ultimately cycling is a niche sport here, the award will always go to more popular sports. Even when Katie George and Eve won Olympic medals they didn't win.

I also think the 50-50 gender spilt is incredibly important- if you can't see it you can't be it, and women's sport get fcuk all coverage, it's important incredible female athletes can get some coverage when they can it can.
Same goes for para sport.

I agree with all this.

I would argue for separate male/female awards in order to recognise a greater number of athletes. If two athletes win the same discipline at next years Olympics, how can a judging panel say one deserves it more than the other? It would become something different like that X Factor/journey stuff and not about recogising actual sporting success.

So, I suppose magicbasterder is right in a sense. Why award something for which that person has already been awarded a title? Yeah, maybe we don't need these awards after all!

Harrybelafonte

velo.2010 wrote: »

I've no problem with anyone on that list - your incorrect and out of line for assuming so. Its a huge achievement reaching a world final but, personal cycling bias perhaps, I would put Bennett's achievements above hers. Its a simple as that.

If you say so.

eeeee

brocbrocach wrote: »

It's a very niche event in a niche sport and it's probable that only a few thousand people in the country know anything about it. On a personal level it's a tremendous achievement but the niche aspect means that it doesn't grab the headlines outside of a few dedicated followers.

Sam and Dan and Nico have reached the top level in a sport where many thousands participate and many millions spectate. Personally I think that's more worthy of recognition with an award such as this.

I would say that Katie George and Eve do the same sport as Dan, Sam et al, but with much, much less support, almost no pathway and with much better results. I don't see road and tt as niche events? That they're a para tandem doesn't make it a totally separate discipline imo.

I don't think cycling has a big audience in Ireland, even Olympic medals don't win you the award!

As magic says, it's a kind of pointless thing anyway, all of the athletes are excelling in their respective fields.
It would be nice if it was used to celebrate those achievements gained in less favourable circumstances for exposure and support-I don't think GAA or rugby or football stars lack support in the way an Olympic champion female para athlete does.

Other than that it's (the award) kind of pointless.

velo.2010

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

If you say so.

Thats just being a smart arse now.

Harrybelafonte

velo.2010 wrote: »

Thats just being a smart arse now.

Where do you want the debate to go. I say you’re doing one thing. You say you’re not. If you insist that’s your take on it then I see no point in continuing the debate. It’s going to get shut down by mods soon enough anyway it’s gone on so long.

You’ve already told me I was out of order to suggest something. Now you’re saying I’m a smart arse. Not sure where else the debate can go except more name calling.

brocbrocach

eeeee wrote: »

I would say that Katie George and Eve do the same sport as Dan, Sam et al, but with much, much less support, almost no pathway and with much better results.

I couldn't agree with that. They're only the same in that their respective sports involve riding bicycles. For this same reason I've very little interest in what Felix English does on a track but was interested in his results when he raced on the road.

velo.2010

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Where do you want the debate to go. I say you’re doing one thing. You say you’re not. If you insist that’s your take on it then I see no point in continuing the debate. It’s going to get shut down by mods soon enough anyway it’s gone on so long.

You’ve already told me I was out of order to suggest something. Now you’re saying I’m a smart arse. Not sure where else the debate can go except more name calling.

I'm happy to draw a line.

We've gone way off the thread topic.

I hope Bennett can succeed at DQS next season, pick up a couple of Tour stages.

magicbastarder

sure phil gaimon should get an honourable mention for monstering the KOM on howth?

eeeee

brocbrocach wrote: »

I couldn't agree with that. They're only the same in that their respective sports involve riding bicycles. For this same reason I've very little interest in what Felix English does on a track but was interested in his results when he raced on the road.

They compete in road racing and tt's, which are the same disciplines as the Male, able bodied pros it's literally the exact same discipline.
Track is a different discipline to road, but Katie George and Eve compete mainly in road and tt!

CramCycle

Is this like the UK one where it is personality as well as attributes that are considered, or are they trying to claim that they can define who is the best competitive athlete in the country?

velo.2010

CramCycle wrote: »

Is this like the UK one where it is personality as well as attributes that are considered, or are they trying to claim that they can define who is the best competitive athlete in the country?

My understanding is that RTE's award was judged by a panel for many years and then went to a public vote (which I incorrectly though was still the case). McGregor won the public vote in 2016, ahead of many Rio Olympic/Para medalists, and to some disgust of many in the studio that night.

It then reverted back to a panel selection. Make of that what you will.

CramCycle

velo.2010 wrote: »

My understanding is that RTE's award was judged by a panel for many years then went to a public vote (which I incorrectly though was still the case). McGregor won the public vote in 2016, ahead of many Rio Olympic/Para medalists, and to some disgust of many in the studio that night.

It then reverted back to a panel selection. Make of that what you will.

The main flaw with democracy is the people who vote

velo.2010

CramCycle wrote: »

The main flaw with democracy is the people who vote

Oh man, we need another thread for that!

Junior

velo.2010 wrote: »

Oh man, we need another thread for that!

Back to feudalism I say, where your Count votes.

brocbrocach

eeeee wrote: »

They compete in road racing and tt's, which are the same disciplines as the Male, able bodied pros it's literally the exact same discipline.
Track is a different discipline to road, but Katie George and Eve compete mainly in road and tt!

Sorry I should've been much clearer there, managed to distract my own train of thought! I admit I thought McCrystal and Dunleavy were mainly track, though I know Eve McCrystal is a good road cyclist in her own right.
The cycling that Sam and Dan etc compete in is different to the paralympic one in that it has a broad multinational following that is happy to spend time and money on it and a much much much wider base of competition. That changes everything, from hours available to train to base level needed to compete and win. Apart from that, the random element involved with both the paralympian and the pilot selection makes it a completely different sport.

eeeee

brocbrocach wrote: »

Sorry I should've been much clearer there, managed to distract my own train of thought! I admit I thought McCrystal and Dunleavy were mainly track, though I know Eve McCrystal is a good road cyclist in her own right.
The cycling that Sam and Dan etc compete in is different to the paralympic one in that it has a broad multinational following that is happy to spend time and money on it and a much much much wider base of competition. That changes everything, from hours available to train to base level needed to compete and win. Apart from that, the random element involved with both the paralympian and the pilot selection makes it a completely different sport.

The competition at international level in para sport is extremely high. And the stoker pilot selection isn't random - in fact getting that relationship right is am art, and a good partnership is greater than the sum of its parts. It requires an awful lot more skill than just a solo bike, and the tactics and nature of the sport is exactly the same- road racing and tt's are the same with a solo and tandem bike!
Also the women had to go full time to win at Olympic level, they continue to dominate at world level despite not always having the luxury of this, although to the best of my knowledge Katie George is a full time athlete, she's certainly carded.
I think the trust she has to have on Eve is something else. The speeds they do, the courses they compete on, Katie George has to give total trust over to Eve. It's kind of incredible.

Anyway, it's a much bigger achievement in my eyes than the lesser success of someone the sport is built around supporting's success iykwim.
There isn't a single easy won European, world or Olympic medal out there regardless of the sport involved!

harringtonp

Suggest one of the mods loft the whole discussion on the awards and create a separate thread