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03-08-2018, 05:02   #1
Kermit.de.frog
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Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

I talk to northerners (many converted to a United Ireland suddenly, not all) regularly and the theme is clear and simple enough:

They are an afterthought in the UK - they get the scraps, but in the EU they got more and more funding and it gave them at least a feeling of being more central and worthy.

Now they face being a backwater within a small to medium sized country outside the EU. A country that will have more of a little Englander tinge to it than possibly ever before. They won't get the same funding and even in the EU they get sweet fcuk all from the UK government beyond what sustains the 6 counties at the minimum.

What will it be like when the EU is no longer there?

I feel we are at the crossroads now where northerners and soft unionists are genuinely pondering for the first time that staying in a UK outside the EU is not in their economic or social interest.

And just wait till farmers lose their EU subsidies in 2022

To the hardcore Brexit unionists:


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03-08-2018, 07:28   #2
ToddyDoody
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Wasn't there once a time when the repubic was the backwater?
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03-08-2018, 08:03   #3
Fr_Dougal
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Wasn't there once a time when the repubic was the backwater?
Yes, before Sean Lemass.
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03-08-2018, 08:10   #4
Thomas_IV
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Originally Posted by Kermit.de.frog View Post
I talk to northerners (many converted to a United Ireland suddenly, not all) regularly and the theme is clear and simple enough:

They are an afterthought in the UK - they get the scraps, but in the EU they got more and more funding and it gave them at least a feeling of being more central and worthy.

Now they face being a backwater within a small to medium sized country outside the EU. A country that will have more of a little Englander tinge to it than possibly ever before. They won't get the same funding and even in the EU they get sweet fcuk all from the UK government beyond what sustains the 6 counties at the minimum.

What will it be like when the EU is no longer there?

I feel we are at the crossroads now where northerners and soft unionists are genuinely pondering for the first time that staying in a UK outside the EU is not in their economic or social interest.

And just wait till farmers lose their EU subsidies in 2022
Well, for some of them it appears to dawn that the DUP is the most backwards party in NI but still they don't seem to get rid of them which would be essential for any progress. let alone a UI.
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03-08-2018, 08:13   #5
Atoms for Peace
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If they hadn't voted in the DUP the current British government would have collapsed by now without their votes.
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03-08-2018, 08:16   #6
fxotoole
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Love your clickbaity title, OP
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03-08-2018, 08:17   #7
BattleCorp
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Oh for God's sake, let them have their border.
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03-08-2018, 08:26   #8
Peregrinus
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Yes, before Sean Lemass.
Before Sean Lemass changed his policies in 1959, I think you mean. He first entered government in 1932 as Minister for Industry and Commerce, and at that time and for long afterwards he was closely associated with de Valera's vision of economic autonomy, self-sufficiency, tariff barriers, and an economy dominated by state-owned effective monopolies.

To be fair to Lemass, he recognised from the early 1950s that this wasn't working and a change was needed, but couldn't persuade de Valera. It wasn't until Dev decided to leave government and go to the Park that Lemass could actually implement a new policy.

But, yes, this was the turning point. Since the late 1950s, the economic performance of the Republic has consistently outperformed that of Northern Ireland. I'm not sure at what point we might say that the Republic caught up with, and then overtook, NI; I think the answer probably depend on which measurement you use - Gross domestic product? Household income? Something else? But, whatever measurement you pick, the answer is likely to be that the Republic overtook NI some decades ago, and is now ahead by a wide margin.
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03-08-2018, 08:30   #9
yabadabado
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NI get sweet fcuk all from UK government?
They keep they afloat ffs
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03-08-2018, 08:34   #10
Thomas_IV
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Yes, before Sean Lemass.
Before Sean Lemass changed his policies in 1959, I think you mean.  He first entered government in 1932 as Minister for Industry and Commerce, and at that time and for long afterwards he was closely associated with de Valera's vision of economic autonomy, self-sufficiency, tariff barriers, and an economy dominated by state-owned effective monopolies.  

To be fair to Lemass, he recognised from the early 1950s that this wasn't working and a change was needed, but couldn't persuade de Valera.  It wasn't until Dev decided to leave government and go to the Park that Lemass could actually implement a new policy.  

But, yes, this was the turning point.  Since the late 1950s, the economic performance of the Republic has consistently outperformed that of Northern Ireland.  I'm not sure at what point we might say that the Republic caught up with, and then overtook, NI; I think the answer probably depend on which measurement you use - Gross domestic product?  Household income?  Something else?  But, whatever measurement you pick, the answer is likely to be that the Republic overtook NI some decades ago, and is now ahead by a wide margin.
If one wasn't a member of the clergy (I think he preferred the opinions of Bishops) it was all efforts taken in vain to persuade Dev of anything that didn't get the approval by the representatives of the RCC in Ireland. I always think that it certainly had been better if Dev didn't abandon his path to become a priest himself in his youth. That is because deep down in his heart and thinking, he was always a clergy man.
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03-08-2018, 08:36   #11
McGaggs
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NI get sweet fcuk all from UK government?
They keep they afloat ffs
The orange bit, east of the Bann, gets looked after. The green bit gets ignored.
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03-08-2018, 08:37   #12
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We have always been a scruffy traditionalist people in Ulster. Even without the bible many of us hold old fashioned views. I like it, over progressive views anyway.
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03-08-2018, 08:39   #13
Strabanimal
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There is no such thing as a soft unionist (apart from those who come from a Catholic background and believe staying in the UK is better for themselves). The only types from a Protestant background are alternative left wing folk and even their true side comes out while drunk.

All my friends, even my gf is of such Christian persuasion.

But if you fear Loyalists over a potential UI, good luck with agreeing to a hard border with Republicans. You'll soon see who is packing more heat. If you haven't already that is.
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03-08-2018, 08:41   #14
PeaQueue
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Its going to be a nightmare for anyone working across the border - in either direction - not to mention the potential hassle for anyone going on day trips if checkpoints start to pop up again. 

Hopefully they don't close all the back roads like they did before.
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03-08-2018, 08:50   #15
Peregrinus
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If one wasn't a member of the clergy (I think he preferred the opinions of Bishops) it was all efforts taken in vain to persuade Dev of anything that didn't get the approval by the representatives of the RCC in Ireland. I always think that it certainly had been better if Dev didn't abandon his path to become a priest himself in his youth. That is because deep down in his heart and thinking, he was always a clergy man.
A lot of Dev's errors can be ascribed to his fondness for clerical thinkers but, in fairness, I don't think we can ascribe his economic vision to this. His fondness for economic independence, self-sufficiency, tariff barriers, etc would have been absolutely standard in the nationalist and anti-colonial circles in which he came to political maturity, not just in Ireland but also elsewhere. And in the 1920s it was pretty much the dominant economic thinking.

This didn't start to change until the 1930s, when the contribution it had made to worsening the Great Depression began to be recognised. And this change didn't really begin to influence government policies in other countries until the postwar settlement of the late 1940s.

Dev didn't join in this shift in intellectual opinion on economic matters but not, I think, because of clerical influence - econcomic policy generally wasn't a big deal for clerical thinkers, so long as you steered clear of communism. They were fine with free trade, globalisation, Keynesian fiscal policy, etc, if that was your thing. If Dev had been open to these influences, there would have been few clerical voices to discourage him and, when Lemass did adopt them, there was no clerical resistance (as there was on social matters at the time, e.g. the Mother and Child Scheme).

Ronan Fanning suggests that Dev's late political career was dominated by the desire to defend and vindicate the choices he made in his earlier political career. This made it very difficult for him to change his mind about anything. Having grown up with the idea that true national independence required economic autonomy, it was simply very difficult for him to let go of that idea.
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