Papal Vist - lost opportunity for public transport to shine

KC8 · 30-07-2018 4:33pm #1

600,000 people to and from the Phoenix Park in one day. Big challenge.

The challenge is also an opportunity. If users are impressed with public transport on the day, who knows they might leave the car behind on other journeys.

Unfortunately, having reviewed plans, I am completely underwhelmed. I suspect the shortcomings are not necessarily down to the transport operators but perhaps the Guards or whomever else isn’t willing to close down roads to general traffic.

Assuming it’s not logisticaly possible to have vehicles driving into the Park, the objective should be to drop off and pick up as close as possible.

Buses
The drop off points could be much closer to the Park. If you closed the Chapilizod bypass and N3 completely, you could drop off passengers close to Islandbridge and the Ashtown roundabout respectively with easy turning facilities for buses. Why isn’t this being done? Also with these wide roads closed, one could arrange for hundreds of buses to be ready to leave once the event is over.

LUAS
Why aren’t red line services serving Houston and Museum? Crown control doesn’t make sense to me. Both stops have a good deal of space that would permit safe queueing at departure time.

TRAINS
There appears still to be a lack of detail here. There don’t appear to be much by way of extra services. Will all rolling stock be used on the day? If not, why not?

AlekSmart · 31-07-2018 8:10pm

KC8 wrote: »

600,000 people to and from the Phoenix Park in one day. Big challenge.

The challenge is also an opportunity. If users are impressed with public transport on the day, who knows they might leave the car behind on other journeys.

Unfortunately, having reviewed plans, I am completely underwhelmed. I suspect the shortcomings are not necessarily down to the transport operators but perhaps the Guards or whomever else isn’t willing to close down roads to general traffic.

Assuming it’s not logisticaly possible to have vehicles driving into the Park, the objective should be to drop off and pick up as close as possible.

Buses
The drop off points could be much closer to the Park. If you closed the Chapilizod bypass and N3 completely, you could drop off passengers close to Islandbridge and the Ashtown roundabout respectively with easy turning facilities for buses. Why isn’t this being done? Also with these wide roads closed, one could arrange for hundreds of buses to be ready to leave once the event is over.

LUAS
Why aren’t red line services serving Houston and Museum? Crown control doesn’t make sense to me. Both stops have a good deal of space that would permit safe queueing at departure time.

TRAINS
There appears still to be a lack of detail here. There don’t appear to be much by way of extra services. Will all rolling stock be used on the day? If not, why not?

Personally,I remain sceptical that the pope will draw that 600,000,but even allowing for that scepticism,the Garda Security requirements appear Waaay OTT.

If one compares the numbers of those catered for in 1979,and the extremely effective Public Transport arrangements back then,one could be forgiven for asking whether they bothered to keep the 1979 plan on file ?

Jamie2k9 · 31-07-2018 8:50pm

TRAINS
There appears still to be a lack of detail here. There don’t appear to be much by way of extra services. Will all rolling stock be used on the day? If not, why not?

Not looked at Irishrail.ie then, most routes getting at least one additional return service while NIR will run a service from Derry and two from Belfast.

P_1 · 31-07-2018 9:11pm

KC8 wrote: »

600,000 people to and from the Phoenix Park in one day. Big challenge.

The challenge is also an opportunity. If users are impressed with public transport on the day, who knows they might leave the car behind on other journeys.

Unfortunately, having reviewed plans, I am completely underwhelmed. I suspect the shortcomings are not necessarily down to the transport operators but perhaps the Guards or whomever else isn’t willing to close down roads to general traffic.

Assuming it’s not logisticaly possible to have vehicles driving into the Park, the objective should be to drop off and pick up as close as possible.

Buses
The drop off points could be much closer to the Park. If you closed the Chapilizod bypass and N3 completely, you could drop off passengers close to Islandbridge and the Ashtown roundabout respectively with easy turning facilities for buses. Why isn’t this being done? Also with these wide roads closed, one could arrange for hundreds of buses to be ready to leave once the event is over.

LUAS
Why aren’t red line services serving Houston and Museum? Crown control doesn’t make sense to me. Both stops have a good deal of space that would permit safe queueing at departure time.

TRAINS
There appears still to be a lack of detail here. There don’t appear to be much by way of extra services. Will all rolling stock be used on the day? If not, why not?

It's a normal working day for a lot of people who have zero interest in this. It's bad enough the city being shut down as it is without adding this

magicbastarder · 31-07-2018 11:35pm

KC8 wrote: »

If users are impressed with public transport on the day

the idea that the public transport for a city of 1-1.5m (all depends on how you choose to calculate that) could cope with 600,000 people going to the same event at the same time at the same venue, and impress people enough to make them think 'wow, PT is something i will now consider as a valid option' is a colossal ask.

and as mentioned above, it should also continue to serve the rest of the city at the same time.

Carawaystick · 01-08-2018 1:22am

KC8 wrote: »

Buses
The drop off points could be much closer to the Park. If you closed the Chapilizod bypass and N3 completely, you could drop off passengers close to Islandbridge and the Ashtown roundabout respectively with easy turning facilities for buses. Why isn’t this being done? Also with these wide roads closed, one could arrange for hundreds of buses to be ready to leave once the event is over.

Why would you close the N4, when Conyngham road is available to close and let coaches park.

magicbastarder · 01-08-2018 8:08am

it's been announced that they're delaying release of tickets for the final mass as they seem to be worried about carmageddon, that most people will expect to drive to it and the city will grind to a halt. there's a surprise.

Borderfox · 01-08-2018 8:31am

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's been announced that they're delaying release of tickets for the final mass as they seem to be worried about carmageddon, that most people will expect to drive to it and the city will grind to a halt. there's a surprise.

Can they not just have a drive in mass?

goingnowhere · 01-08-2018 10:06am

Standard practice is to have transport drop people off a fair distance from the event. It avoids crush situations as it spreads the crowd out

Its important to note the number of daily rail passengers today far exceeds that carried on the date of the last Papal Mass at the Phoenix Park (125k), the DART with a fleet of 80 coaches carried 125k on a single day in 1996, with the current fleet of 144 200k would be not be a problem add a further 100k from the Intercity/Commuter operation. Luas can easily manage 100k plus in a day

Add in Dublin Bus, Go Ahead, Translink and whoever else the NTA can hire in it would be practical to assume PT could cope with 50% of the demand, a huge number will walk.

TheIrishGrover · 01-08-2018 10:12am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Personally,I remain sceptical that the pope will draw that 600,000,but even allowing for that scepticism,the Garda Security requirements appear Waaay OTT.

If one compares the numbers of those catered for in 1979,and the extremely effective Public Transport arrangements back then,one could be forgiven for asking whether they bothered to keep the 1979 plan on file ?

Gottta remember the amount of people going to the event this year who have their own cars as opposed to 1979.

Are they letting people in/out of the park from many gates? My sister and family are going. I live out near Blanchardstown/Clonsilla. They could get the 39A (Or train to Clonsilla from Ashtown) if they can leave via the Ashtown gate.

Did I hear on RTE that they were placing restrictions basically out to the M50?

Plus, unfortunately, so many people just will NOT use public transport if they can help it at all. I use the train Mon-Fri and use busses regularly and, bar rush-hour extreme delays and scrotes on busses (Another conversation that's been done to death), I have no real complaints.

But I know people who would sit in their car for hours, stopping and starting, trying to find a parking spot 10 feet closer rather than get a bus. It's sad but true.

This is also going to be a big generalisation but the vast majority of the people going will be from outside of Dublin and many (Majority) will be middle-aged/older. These people would also be resistant to getting off at Red Cow, Getting LUAS and then, maybe, bus - Tickets, people, confusion etc.

Humour Me · 01-08-2018 10:30am

Notice on Irish Rail that tickets for intercity services are mandatory and must be purchased in advance. I can see some people getting caught out by this.

magicbastarder · 01-08-2018 10:33am

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Plus, unfortunately, so many people just will NOT use public transport if they can help it at all.

if i heard correctly on RTE, there was a clear implication that they already know the intentions on how people intend on getting to the event - was that part of the ticket application process?

Hurrache · 01-08-2018 10:42am

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Did I hear on RTE that they were placing restrictions basically out to the M50?

Basically the dark greyed area on these maps are restricted, but I can't actually find out what these restrictions are.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/news-media/tfi-papal-visit-transport-phoenix-park-maps-final.pdf

Stephen15 · 01-08-2018 10:58am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why would you close the N4, when Conyngham road is available to close and let coaches park.

Do you suggest letting coaches park in Conyngham Road Depot? It's DB private property.

cgcsb · 01-08-2018 11:01am

The pope could have just relocated his visit to Belfast-Derry and Mayo and that would've virtually removed the transport issues. Bring the mountain to muhammod as it were. Dubliners don't want to go see the pope like in all fairness. That's something for Northerners and grannies from Mayo.

TheIrishGrover · 01-08-2018 11:24am

Hurrache wrote: »

Basically the dark greyed area on these maps are restricted, but I can't actually find out what these restrictions are.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/news-media/tfi-papal-visit-transport-phoenix-park-maps-final.pdf

Yeah, that's the map I saw too but, as you said, haven't heard what these restrictions will be. Limiting private traffic to residents only? Unlikely as it's such a large area and surely they would have to issue some kind of tag/sticker for windscreens. Otherwise every cop will be told the driver lives in Ashtown.

AndrewJRenko · 01-08-2018 11:26am

Can't they just pray for a great transport service?

TheIrishGrover · 01-08-2018 11:29am

cgcsb wrote: »

The pope could have just relocated his visit to Belfast-Derry and Mayo and that would've virtually removed the transport issues. Bring the mountain to muhammod as it were. Dubliners don't want to go see the pope like in all fairness. That's something for Northerners and grannies from Mayo.

Heaven forbid Dublin actually act like a capital city

TheChrisD · 01-08-2018 3:39pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I live out near Blanchardstown/Clonsilla. They could get the 39A (Or train to Clonsilla from Ashtown) if they can leave via the Ashtown gate.

Nope to that. For some insanely stupid reason, all N3 buses are being rerouted via the M50 and through Finglas for the day. Utterly baffling.

P_1 · 01-08-2018 4:19pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Nope to that. For some insanely stupid reason, all N3 buses are being rerouted via the M50 and through Finglas for the day. Utterly baffling.

They're what?

AlekSmart · 01-08-2018 5:49pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

Nope to that. For some insanely stupid reason, all N3 buses are being rerouted via the M50 and through Finglas for the day. Utterly baffling.

Surely there will be a "Public Consultation" exercise for this major change...?

I'm Confident that such a responsible,public spirited authority,will be very keen to learn the views of it's customers ....Yes ??

thomasj · 01-08-2018 6:37pm

TheChrisD wrote:

Nope to that. For some insanely stupid reason, all N3 buses are being rerouted via the M50 and through Finglas for the day. Utterly baffling.

It's crazy , there will be no route 120 on the day and the 122 and 46a will terminate at broadstone garage on the day.

TheChrisD · 01-08-2018 8:03pm

P_1 wrote: »

They're what?

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Diversions-due-to-Papal-Mass-Sunday-26-August-2018/

Every single bus that normally uses the N3 corridor (37/38/39/70) will instead on that Sunday be diverted to go via the M50 from Blanch to Finglas and then into town via the N2, Whitworth Road and OCS.

Basically, a massive detour for D15 passengers, and a giant middle finger to Castleknock and D7 passengers for having the audacity to actually want to make use of their bus services that day.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Surely there will be a "Public Consultation" exercise for this major change...?

Considering that it seems most people found out about the planned road closures from the fact that Dublin Bus released these diversions, rather than as an announcement from the Guards or the county/city councils shows how little the public is being informed.

P_1 · 01-08-2018 8:48pm

TheChrisD wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Diversions-due-to-Papal-Mass-Sunday-26-August-2018/

Every single bus that normally uses the N3 corridor (37/38/39/70) will instead on that Sunday be diverted to go via the M50 from Blanch to Finglas and then into town via the N2, Whitworth Road and OCS.

Basically, a massive detour for D15 passengers, and a giant middle finger to Castleknock and D7 passengers for having the audacity to actually want to make use of their bus services that day.

Considering that it seems most people found out about the planned road closures from the fact that Dublin Bus released these diversions, rather than as an announcement from the Guards or the county/city councils shows how little the public is being informed.

Why on earth is Talbot street being closed? That makes zero sense whatsoever

Tarabuses · 01-08-2018 8:50pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

if i heard correctly on RTE, there was a clear implication that they already know the intentions on how people intend on getting to the event - was that part of the ticket application process?

Yes, they asked where you were coming from and how you intended to travel.

TheIrishGrover · 03-08-2018 9:55am

TheChrisD wrote: »

Nope to that. For some insanely stupid reason, all N3 buses are being rerouted via the M50 and through Finglas for the day. Utterly baffling.

You... are... f*cking... JOKING!!!!!!

No, you're not. Oh my God. So, my sister is coming up and is staying in the hotel in Blanch 'cos, y'know, near (And my house is full). I told her: Excellent idea. You can get 39/39A into Ashtown roundabout.... So she has to go the whole way into town to get another bus or something?

GENIUS!!!!!!!!

Daith · 03-08-2018 10:09am

TheChrisD wrote: »

Every single bus that normally uses the N3 corridor (37/38/39/70) will instead on that Sunday be diverted to go via the M50 from Blanch to Finglas and then into town via the N2, Whitworth Road and OCS.

Oh perfect, cos the Whitworth Road is ideal for buses! More of them please.

cgcsb · 03-08-2018 10:23am

It could all not happen as expected anyway. With a bit of luck it'll be raining heavily, deterring the free ticket holders from going. Many of the old dears who reserved tickets probably wont live till late August, being 1000 years old and all. And there have been thousands of protest tickets bought. It could end up less than 100,000 people actually going.

thomasj · 03-08-2018 10:48am

TheIrishGrover wrote:

You... are... f*cking... JOKING!!!!!!

TheIrishGrover wrote:

No, you're not. Oh my God. So, my sister is coming up and is staying in the hotel in Blanch 'cos, y'know, near (And my house is full). I told her: Excellent idea. You can get 39/39A into Ashtown roundabout.... So she has to go the whole way into town to get another bus or something?

The trains are running as normal

GM228 · 03-08-2018 11:34am

P_1 wrote: »

Why on earth is Talbot street being closed? That makes zero sense whatsoever

The word is that several locations have been selected for "strategic" placement of Gardaí and DFB vehicles for temporary out stations, Talbot Street is one of those areas.

Stephen15 · 03-08-2018 11:46am

GM228 wrote: »

The word is that several locations have been selected for "strategic" placement of Gardaí and DFB vehicles for temporary out stations, Talbot Street is one of those areas.

What's the nessecity to move Emergency vehicles? Surely emergency vehicles will be exempted from any traffic restrictions.

TheIrishGrover · 03-08-2018 11:51am

thomasj wrote: »

The trains are running as normal

Good thinking. Forgot. Thanks

TheChrisD · 03-08-2018 3:55pm

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

GENIUS!!!!!!!!

<img snip>

inorite? All this talk and bragging that public transport will get you to and from the mass in this super large attempt at showcasing it's usefulness - and then they pretty much cut off most non-specialised public transport from the cordon area anyway.

Utter genius :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight · 03-08-2018 8:31pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Personally,I remain sceptical that the pope will draw that 600,000,but even allowing for that scepticism,the Garda Security requirements appear Waaay OTT.

If one compares the numbers of those catered for in 1979,and the extremely effective Public Transport arrangements back then,one could be forgiven for asking whether they bothered to keep the 1979 plan on file ?

Back in 1979 they opened up closed rural stations for the day.

Elf and safety and litigation is gone mad compared to 1979 though.

thomasj · 06-08-2018 10:14am

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Back in 1979 they opened up closed rural stations for the day.

Back in 1979 most of the Dublin 15 bus routes were cancelled for the day.

The big issue here is that the Navan road is closed beyond the M50 roundabout for the day (not sure about local access) I'm not sure what other options there are other than via finglas

Hurrache · 06-08-2018 12:56pm

Only place I found the full list is here
https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/dublin-road-closures-pope-visit-14993796

Lots of places around Finglas closed too.

emo72 · 10-08-2018 5:48pm

This is a disaster for me, currently working in retail and the shop is going to close all weekend, the busiest days. Not impressed.

Lord Glentoran · 11-08-2018 9:38am

Bikes. They should all ride bikes. And wear Lycra.

spurious · 11-08-2018 1:52pm

emo72 wrote: »

This is a disaster for me, currently working in retail and the shop is going to close all weekend, the busiest days. Not impressed.

Why is it closing? Where is it located?

Almost all Dublin Bus routes are working as normal on both Saturday and Sunday, or in many cases a better service. The city centre is open both days, albeit with some security stops and rolling road closures. It will be sort of like Patrick's day.
No reason for any except a small number of businesses located very close to Papal hotspots to close.

thomasj · 11-08-2018 6:28pm

I'd say the Tesco on the Navan road will struggle , presuming that it opens.

thomasj · 11-08-2018 6:32pm

spurious wrote:

Almost all Dublin Bus routes are working as normal on both Saturday and Sunday, or in many cases a better service. The city centre is open both days, albeit with some security stops and rolling road closures. It will be sort of like Patrick's day. No reason for any except a small number of businesses located very close to Papal hotspots to close.

All buses from blanchardstown/castleknock /Meath will run via the M50 and finglas to the city.

There's also a lot of road closures in the city on the day .

emo72 · 11-08-2018 6:37pm

spurious wrote: »

Why is it closing? Where is it located?

Kylemore road.

spurious · 11-08-2018 8:01pm

emo72 wrote: »

Kylemore road.

I suppose it depends what business you are in, but there will be tens of thousands of people walking along Kylemore.

Papal Vist - lost opportunity for public transport to shine

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