Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

Del.Monte · 09-07-2018 7:02pm #1

Meant to post this ages ago but better late than never. It is this sort of ill informed crap that let's CIE away with murder. I wonder when the CEO of Wexford County Council last took the train - in days of steam? There isn't a passenger who uses the service who would be happy to be dumped out on Bray to change onto the DART. lrish Rail will be like Ryanair, a company that takes you near to the place you want to go. :rolleyes:

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L1011 · 09-07-2018 7:07pm

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services. Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

Del.Monte · 09-07-2018 7:18pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services. Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

I like the latter suggestion but as a regular on the Rosslare line trains I think you would find it difficult to find a seconder for the idea of changing at Bray. The current experience is far removed from the fantasy portrayed in CIE advertising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGXh4xsBo

Chris_5339762 · 09-07-2018 7:54pm

And none of that will happen because of the single track nature of the bit around Bray Head. Should be fixed, but would cost an absolute fortune.

bk · 09-07-2018 7:55pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I like the latter suggestion but as a regular on the Rosslare line trains I think you would find it difficult to find a seconder for the idea of changing at Bray. The current experience is far removed from the fantasy portrayed in CIE advertising.

Funny the idea of transferring between services will become the norm for buses with BusConnects.

Same between Luas and Metro at Sandyford.

Transferring will become the norm throughout our transport system as it is in other European cities. People south of Bray can either continue with the same level of crappy service or they can do a quick transfer and get a much more frequent service.

CatInABox · 09-07-2018 8:30pm

The Dart would be scheduled to take account of the train from Wexford, i.e. the train from Wexford would pull into the station, passengers would step off the train onto the platform, and the Dart would be waiting there for them, doors open. The inconvenience will be small, while the benefits will be large.

LeinsterDub · 09-07-2018 8:36pm

I'd happily transfer

Del.Monte · 09-07-2018 9:30pm

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Changing trains is not exactly something new, but detraining from a nominal intercity train into a commuter train to complete a journey is and is a retrograde step. If it happens it will be the final nail in the coffin of services south of Gorey.

LeinsterDub · 09-07-2018 9:44pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Makes sense to me. Increase Dart and other suburban trains frequency. Also increase the frequency of IC trains.

Just this Saturday I got the train from Drumcondra to Maynooth. Super service rendered also most useless by its frequency. Now if the IC service and the commuter service can exists side by side with a decent service then clearly this wouldn't be needed.

Corca Baiscinn · 09-07-2018 9:59pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth...

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

end of the road · 09-07-2018 11:11pm

L1011 wrote: »

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services.

i'd very much doubt it if i'm honest. the odd time where that has had to be done due to a breakdown it has lead to very many annoyed passengers. increased services would go nowhere near to justify this tbh, not that it would be justifiable anyway.

L1011 wrote: »

Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

as it stands we are cronically short of rolling stock even if 2900s could be released (and it's trying to get rid of them from the rosslare line we are) not trying to get more of the retchid things! . as it stands a rolling stock order is needed.

CatInABox wrote: »

The Dart would be scheduled to take account of the train from Wexford, i.e. the train from Wexford would pull into the station, passengers would step off the train onto the platform, and the Dart would be waiting there for them, doors open. The inconvenience will be small, while the benefits will be large.

the inconvenience most certainly wouldn't be small in reality. it would be the difference between any increased services being used and a complete flop, and worst case, us losing the lot. there will be no real if any actual benefits either.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Makes sense to me. Increase Dart and other suburban trains frequency. Also increase the frequency of IC trains.

Just this Saturday I got the train from Drumcondra to Maynooth. Super service rendered also most useless by its frequency. Now if the IC service and the commuter service can exists side by side with a decent service then clearly this wouldn't be needed.

increases in service for commuters and others can already be done without degraded inter city services or even their loss. it's difficult but doable given they will be supposibly be able to fit a 10 minute dart through the core. an increase in frequency of inter city trains can only be direct services to insure any chance of their use, and to insure a comfortable and convenient rail option which is what we all want, isn't it?

end of the road · 09-07-2018 11:16pm

bk wrote: »

Funny the idea of transferring between services will become the norm for buses with BusConnects.

Same between Luas and Metro at Sandyford.

not a like for like comparison though. with dublin's bus system you have lots of routes with people transferring around the network having to go to different places. with the rail services, you effectively have a small few lines where long distance services travel the length of those lines which in turn provide some express services to some of the suburban stations. so changing from those services onto slow suburban services just to go to the capital is change for changes sake and delivers nothing to make it worth using the services.

bk wrote: »

Transferring will become the norm throughout our transport system as it is in other European cities. People south of Bray can either continue with the same level of crappy service or they can do a quick transfer and get a much more frequent service.

a transfer won't be that quick in reality, that's from personal experience the odd time it has happened. whatever about in a breakdown situation having to transfer on to an all stops hell of a lot slower dart, i couldn't see extra services being used tbh with that in place.
transfers in other cities happen because people are going to many different places and services won't be necessarely going their way. it's the same with the bus networks as currently. whereas our railways being small mean dublin is the main destination.

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

however in turn for that they get on to a fastish limited stop service, so not really a comparison to the rosslare line.

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

changing onto a slow dart most certainly isn't the solution.

testicles · 09-07-2018 11:22pm

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end of the road · 09-07-2018 11:31pm

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

why should wexford have to change too. just because you have to do it doesn't mean others should, especially when there is no valid reason for it or benefit in turn for those users.
as i said above limerick passengers change onto a limited stop express service from cork (and even then limerick services should go back to being direct to release cork services to be even more limited stop and be more competitive)
in wexford's case users would be changing onto an all stops dart which is a lot slower then the current services is within the dublin area. so limerick gets some benefit, wexford would get disbenefit.

IE 222 · 09-07-2018 11:39pm

A 3 car ICR running between Bray and Wexford would give an extra 3 services each way providing a service every 2hrs roughly with current services. It would also allow for a earlier morning departure from Dublin (with a transfer at Bray)

bk · 10-07-2018 12:35am

I totally forgot about Limerick Junction! Vastly busier and more frequent services then Wexford changing there every day pretty smoothly and without delay. I've done it myself loads of times heading to Killarney, it was so easy and unmemorable I literally forgot it as the obvious example

And most recently I did it with a buggy and two year old in tow! I mean it was literally step off train, walk 5 steps, step on train, oh mercy how hard was that :rolleyes:

Really no excuse why this wouldn't work just as well here and double the frequency on this line to something half reasonable.

bk · 10-07-2018 12:46am

end of the road wrote: »

a transfer won't be that quick in reality, that's from personal experience the odd time it has happened. whatever about in a breakdown situation having to transfer on to an all stops hell of a lot slower dart, i couldn't see extra services being used tbh with that in place.

Well it is going to happen either way. The 10 minute DART schedule from Bray will come into effect in a few months and trains from Wexford will end up just crawling behind the every 10 minutes all station DARTs anyway.

And it won't stop there, as demand increases DARTs will likely go even higher frequency at peak times.

The number of passengers from south of Greystones is insanely small. The reality is the focus will be on DART and they will get priority over such a lightly used service.

prinzeugen · 10-07-2018 1:02am

It wont work as it will make the train slower than coach or car. People will stop using the train and it will give IE justification to close the line.

And how/where will the trains be serviced/fuelled? They are still going to have to run to Dublin anyway (unless IE open a new depot in Wexford which won't happen).

This idea is like what almost killed many non commuter lines in the UK in the late 70's/early 80's.

Passengers travelling on new InterCity trains had to complete the journey on old, slow cramped trains. Its why BR spent ££££ on new trains for provincial routes.

Another example of some people thinking the world revolves around the 9-5 commuters.

Quackster · 10-07-2018 1:02am

Direct Dublin-Tralee services were reduced to one-a-day each way back in the naughties when the frequency was ramped up and I certainly wouldn't change things (unless an increase of capacity on the Dublin-Cork corridor were needed and could be delivered with more direct services to Limerick/Tralee).

Frequency really is king when you're a regular user of these services. Changing becomes second nature.

Jamie2k9 · 10-07-2018 1:09am

I'm not convinced switching to DART will work. The line needs radical ideas but at this time not much can be done.

Limerick works because of frequency and more importantly speed, its quicker by between 10-20 minutes changing at Limerick J than going direct at peak times. Direct Limerick are not really there to serve Limerick as such.

prinzeugen · 10-07-2018 1:11am

Quackster wrote: »

Direct Dublin-Tralee services were reduced to one-a-day each way back in the naughties when the frequency was ramped up and I certainly wouldn't change things (unless an increase of capacity on the Dublin-Cork corridor were needed and could be delivered with more direct services to Limerick/Tralee).

Frequency really is king when you're a regular user of these services. Changing becomes second nature.

But that is changing from one InterCity train to another, same at Limerick Jnt.

People are going to be kicked off a InterCity train at Bray and will have to complete the journey on a slow, crowded DART. Great thing to be doing if you are a foot passenger of a Rosslare ferry with suitcases and kids in tow.

They will just get the bus.

end of the road · 10-07-2018 1:15am

bk wrote: »

Well it is going to happen either way.

which is? a slowing down of services or a change? the first is likely, the second not so, if they want a service to continue south of greystones.

bk wrote: »

The 10 minute DART schedule from Bray will come into effect in a few months and trains from Wexford will end up just crawling behind the every 10 minutes all station DARTs anyway.

at least we will be moving, rather then stopping at every station. better to be crawling a bit faster and not stopping then crawling and stopping everywhere. so the non-stopping direct service will always be that bit better.

bk wrote: »

And it won't stop there, as demand increases DARTs will likely go even higher frequency at peak times.

well if they can fit in dart at 10 minutes and aim for higher, then they can continue with other services all be it a bit slower. not to forget the supposed improvements in maynooth frequency as well that they are apparently planning to implement.

bk wrote: »

The number of passengers from south of Greystones is insanely small. The reality is the focus will be on DART and they will get priority over such a lightly used service.

dart always gets and always has got priority over everything else and has always been the focus so unless everyone else is having pointless cuts and changes for dart, then this is nothing new.

bk · 10-07-2018 1:21am

prinzeugen wrote: »

It wont work as it will make the train slower than coach or car. People will stop using the train and it will give IE justification to close the line.

But that has already happened, people aren't using it. Passenger numbers south of Greystones are already laughably low. Last time I checked it was under 600 people a day!

That wouldn't even half fill a single DART. If IE want to close the line, frankly the justification is clearly there.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Another example of some people thinking the world revolves around the 9-5 commuters.

And yet here are people trying to come up with reasonable solutions to increasing all day frequency!

Stephen15 · 10-07-2018 1:21am

The line to Wexford could classed as IEs problem child at present it's a very slow line particularly between Wicklow and Arklow when the line goes inland. A also the train is held up by the DART which also has a riddiculously slow section between DL and Dalkey.

The Enterprise dosen't suffer as badly but still suffers between Malahide and Connolly the DART line is much faster and there are less stops. The ideal situation for the Wexford line would be three tracking between Bray and Connolly and faster line speeds.

Very little motivation to get the train to/from Wexford when the bus is quicker, cheaper and more frequent. Also the line doesn't have that many population centres. Only reasonably sized towns South of Bray along the line are Wicklow 10,000, Arklow 14,000, Gorey 10,000, Enniscouthy 11,000 and Wexford 20,000.

Other lines which are doing better but still not exactly thriving have more reasonably sized towns on their lines and terminate in small cities such as Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway and have larger intermediate stops.

marno21 · 10-07-2018 1:22am

prinzeugen wrote: »

But that is changing from one InterCity train to another, same at Limerick Jnt.

People are going to be kicked off a InterCity train at Bray and will have to complete the journey on a slow, crowded DART. Great thing to be doing if you are a foot passenger of a Rosslare ferry with suitcases and kids in tow.

They will just get the bus.

At the same times the DART would be "crowded" the M11/N11 is a massive congested mess. Off with them to the bus if they rather sit in that

bk · 10-07-2018 1:35am

end of the road wrote: »

which is? a slowing down of services or a change? the first is likely, the second not so, if they want a service to continue south of greystones.

Increase in frequency of DART, which will cause other services behind it to slow down. Just the reality of a shared two track line.

The service behind will be no faster then a high frequency DART, that is the reality.

BTW I've no doubt Irish Rail would do cartwheels of joy if they were left close it down. If it wasn't for the presence of Greystones and the need to serve it they would already have done so, I'm sure. South of Greystones is completely an after thought for them. Why would it, it carries less then 600 people a day!

end of the road wrote: »

at least we will be moving, rather then stopping at every station. better to be crawling a bit faster and not stopping then crawling and stopping everywhere. so the non-stopping direct service will always be that bit better.

No, you will be going at exactly the same speed. You can't go any faster then the train ahead of you, obviously!

end of the road wrote: »

well if they can fit in dart at 10 minutes and aim for higher, then they can continue with other services all be it a bit slower. not to forget the supposed improvements in maynooth frequency as well that they are apparently planning to implement.

Not necessarily. Perhaps they are able to fit in more DARTs because they reduce other services.

Of course the part you are busily overlooking is that we are looking to double the frequency of services to Wexford in return for people having to change and no overall change in journey time.

end of the road wrote: »

dart always gets and always has got priority over everything else and has always been the focus so unless everyone else is having pointless cuts and changes for dart, then this is nothing new.

Yes and it will get even more focus and priority in future. Best to figure out how to work around it, pointless in trying to fight it.

prinzeugen · 10-07-2018 1:36am

bk wrote: »

But that has already happened, people aren't using it. Passenger numbers south of Greystones are already laughably low. Last time I checked it was under 600 people a day!

That wouldn't even half fill a single DART. If IE want to close the line, frankly the justification is clearly there.

And yet here are people trying to come up with reasonable solutions to increasing all day frequency!

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

And whats the point of doubling frequency if only 600 use it?

IE 222 · 10-07-2018 1:43am

I think the key here is to make the service like the Limerick service in the sense you keep the current direct services in place (3 a day) running to and from Dublin. Terminating the early Gorey communter at Bray and keeping that to run services between Bray and Wexford throughout the day is were the extra frequency comes from. This will offer a reasonable timed morning service from Dublin (Bray) around 7:30ish before the current 9:40am.

bk · 10-07-2018 1:49am

prinzeugen wrote: »

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

I'd have absolutely no problem with doing any of the above if it leads to a better commuter and mass transit service and in fact have suggested as much in the past.

Trains into Hueston wouldn't need to as that is quad tracked, which of course is the ideal and you don't have to make this trade off. But Drogheda, sure if it makes sense.

Ideally we would at least triple if not quad track the northern line, though it will be expensive to do, so yes eventually the solution may well be to curtail services further out. Though maybe they will find enough money to CPO homes to at least triple track it.

Maynooth should be able to handle higher frequency DARTs and Sligo trains for now, but eventually it might be needed to do the same there.

Obviously the Wexford line is a whole other kettle of fish. Bray head is just a disaster that there is simply no reasonable way to overcome.

You seem to be taking this personally. The folks aren't saying they hate the folks in Wexford, lets give them a crap service. No it is the reality of Brunels Folley and what a tough problem it is and the reality that the focus needs to be on the vast majority of people who use rail services in Dublin every day and not a small number of intercity passengers.

end of the road · 10-07-2018 2:07am

bk wrote: »

BTW I've no doubt Irish Rail would do cartwheels of joy if they were left close it down. If it wasn't for the presence of Greystones and the need to serve it they would already have done so, I'm sure. South of Greystones is completely an after thought for them. Why would it, it carries less then 600 people a day!

it's not an after thought because of the numbers of users (which is a lot more then 600) . it's an afterthought because "it's always been that way"
that is how CIE operates the railway, on the basis of "it's always been done that way" . if it is not a line that has been operated decently in the past, then it is either not going to be in the future or they are going to be pressured in some way to operate it better as i have a feeling happened with both the wexford and sligo lines to lead to their service increases from 3 trains a day.

bk wrote: »

Not necessarily. Perhaps they are able to fit in more DARTs because they reduce other services.

perhapse, but it's not everyone elses job to lose out for dart. as important as it maybe it's not so important that everyone else has to lose services.

bk wrote: »

Of course the part you are busily overlooking is that we are looking to double the frequency of services to Wexford in return for people having to change and no overall change in journey time.

there is no evidence there would be no over all change in journey time. it's likely that journey times would increase, + the change for change sake, meaning the new services are inconvenient.

bk wrote: »

Yes and it will get even more focus and priority in future. Best to figure out how to work around it, pointless in trying to fight it.

if it causes no major issues then working around it is what will happen. if it causes a hugely degraded service then fighting it is the right thing to do.

IE 222 · 10-07-2018 2:13am

prinzeugen wrote: »

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

And whats the point of doubling frequency if only 600 use it?

Personally i think a tidying up of this service will improve things dramatically.

As I stated about keeping the 3 direct Dublin - Roslare and curtailing the current Gorey service between Bray and Wexford the line would massively benefit with increased frequencies. The line should only need 3 3ICR's to run the service.

In return IE should also run the direct services non-stop between Dublin and Greystones to keep the train free from Dart passengers. Better timetabling could allow for terminating a Dart at Dun Laoghaire when the 10min frequency comes into effect to give the Wexford services a clear run. With the overall increase in Darts I don't think many can complain if 4-6 Darts are cut short over the course of the day. Ideally if trains can be timetabled for direct Roslare services to cross at DUN Laoghaire this will reduce the number of Darts needed to be terminated there and should knock 15-20mins of the Roslare journey time.

prinzeugen · 10-07-2018 2:41am

bk wrote: »

You seem to be taking this personally. The folks aren't saying they hate the folks in Wexford, lets give them a crap service. No it is the reality of Brunels Folley and what a tough problem it is and the reality that the focus needs to be on the vast majority of people who use rail services in Dublin every day and not a small number of intercity passengers.

I am not taking it personally but I am getting sick of the same old "many not the few" line that gets trotted out here.

If it not cycling, its buses, Dart, etc.

As I said, the world does not revolve around selfish commuters.

Public transport is for the many, not the few.

prinzeugen · 10-07-2018 2:43am

IE 222 wrote: »

Personally i think a tidying up of this service will improve things dramatically.

As I stated about keeping the 3 direct Dublin - Roslare and curtailing the current Gorey service between Bray and Wexford the line would massively benefit with increased frequencies. The line should only need 3 3ICR's to run the service.

In return IE should also run the direct services non-stop between Dublin and Greystones to keep the train free from Dart passengers. Better timetabling could allow for terminating a Dart at Dun Laoghaire when the 10min frequency comes into effect to give the Wexford services a clear run. With the overall increase in Darts I don't think many can complain if 4-6 Darts are cut short over the course of the day. Ideally if trains can be timetabled for direct Roslare services to cross at DUN Laoghaire this will reduce the number of Darts needed to be terminated there and should knock 15-20mins of the Roslare journey time.

Keep the 3 through trains and use the idle 2700 railcars for "local" Bray-Rosslare use.

The Idea of doing away with through Rosslare-Dublin trains is stupid however.

LeinsterDub · 10-07-2018 8:18am

prinzeugen wrote: »

It wont work as it will make the train slower than coach or car. People will stop using the train and it will give IE justification to close the line.

Train already is slower than coach or car and that's before you start doing Jarret Walker like calculations including wait time

LeinsterDub · 10-07-2018 8:31am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

And whats the point of doubling frequency if only 600 use it?

That would be a great idea. Now instead of having to get the bus because the commuter service is so poor quick change at Maynooth and all the stops along the line are available to me. The only ones disadvantaged really are the ones going to town. The Sligo train doesn't even link up with the Luas at Broombridge which is criminal.

Frequency more than anything drives demand

CatInABox · 10-07-2018 9:33am

Here's the NTA's Heavy Rail Census from 2016. It shows 574 passengers got on the Rosslare to Dundalk train up to Greystones. At Greystones and Bray, a further 461 would get on, but there's no real way of telling if these people are heading to a Dart stop rather than onward to Dundalk.

I wonder how much improvement to the frequency there could actually be, seeing as it's single track south of Greystones.

Either way, I do think that this line will have to go through some changes in the future, particularly with the ten minute Dart schedule coming in. It's all well and good saying that transport systems should be designed for the few and not for the many, but the affects of this policy can be a disaster. If a service isn't frequent or reliable, then people will turn to their car, adding to the gridlock, impacting on other services.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 10-07-2018 9:38am

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Changing trains is not exactly something new, but detraining from a nominal intercity train into a commuter train to complete a journey is and is a retrograde step. If it happens it will be the final nail in the coffin of services south of Gorey.

people who travel from Belfast to say Pearse (or south) have to detrain to darts.

If this enabled a ten minute or faster dart peak service it would be fine.

bk · 10-07-2018 11:40am

prinzeugen wrote: »

I am not taking it personally but I am getting sick of the same old "many not the few" line that gets trotted out here.

If it not cycling, its buses, Dart, etc.

As I said, the world does not revolve around selfish commuters.

Public transport is for the many, not the few.

Exactly and in this case the many are the massive numbers of daily DART users and the few are the small number of long distance travellers.

I mean that is exactly the problem here. The wexford line is one of the quietest and least used lines in the country, but it then runs into the back of one of the busiest and most heavily used stretch of line in the country.

Quiet clearly IR are going to focus on the needs of the many (DART users) here over the needs of the few (Wexford users) and rightfully so.

The reality is the Dublin is growing massively and their is limited space, whether that is road space, rail space or accommodation and we will need to adjust the use of that space to focus on services that deliver the most users. Whether that is road space given over to buses/bikes or rail space given over to DART.

Connectivity for those further out can be maintained by connecting onto busier mass transit services. Whether that is from a local/orbital bus onto a core spine bus or from one train to another.

And this can lead to much higher frequency of service and much better service overall for the majority.

To be honest having changed trains in Limerick Junction frequently, it really is no hardship.

BTW let me give you another future possibility. IR are planning to buy lots of new bimode diesel electric trains. They call it the DART expansion plan, but these trains are more like ICR's then really DARTs. These trains could operate from Wexford as far as Greystones as Diesels and then change to electric operation from Greystones. They could then act as DARTs from there in stopping at each station in. There shouldn't be much penalty in journey time as they would have the faster acceleration/decelartion of an electric train and anyway they would be constrained by the DART ahead of it anyway. At least this would allow you to not need to change, not that I believe it is too much of a hardship.

I wonder if you could even have one of these trains connect up with another four carriage train at Greystones to operate as an 8 piece set from there in. Interesting idea, but might be operationally too difficult.

You could combine the above for the three directs with IE 222's idea for a shuttle service in between with a change to improve frequency might be quiet a workable solution to boost usage of this line.

Just ideas. Just sitting there and saying you don't want anything to change isn't going to get you anywhere, it is not realistic given the way Dublin is growing. Try and find inventive ways to work with that reality.

loyatemu · 10-07-2018 1:16pm

don't know how accurate this is but one of the local councillors was told by someone at the NTA (at a BusConnects presentation) that they were looking into engineering solutions to improve the DART frequency between Greystones and Bray.

The BusConnects document states that there will be a Dart "every 20 minutes" from Greystones, which is not feasible currently but could possibly be done if there was a passing loop just before the main tunnel. Alternatively they could stack trains in Greystones during the peak hours, but this would have an operational cost of having drivers sitting around doing nothing.

Perhaps we'll find out more when the Dart Upgrade plans are released.

end of the road · 10-07-2018 2:08pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would be a great idea. Now instead of having to get the bus because the commuter service is so poor quick change at Maynooth and all the stops along the line are available to me. The only ones disadvantaged really are the ones going to town. The Sligo train doesn't even link up with the Luas at Broombridge which is criminal.

Frequency more than anything drives demand

frequency and convenience drives demand. frequency is no good if someone is having to change part way just because onto an all stops suburban, making the service inconvenient.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

people who travel from Belfast to say Pearse (or south) have to detrain to darts.

so? irrelevant comparison given the belfast service goes to connolly not pearse. poster is talking about how stupid it would be to chuck them out at droghida for example and have them complete their journey on an all stops.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

If this enabled a ten minute or faster dart peak service it would be fine.

not for the users who would have an even more degraded service then they would with a 10 minute dart yet still continue to have their direct services.

bk wrote: »

Exactly and in this case the many are the massive numbers of daily DART users and the few are the small number of long distance travellers.

I mean that is exactly the problem here. The wexford line is one of the quietest and least used lines in the country, but it then runs into the back of one of the busiest and most heavily used stretch of line in the country.

Quiet clearly IR are going to focus on the needs of the many (DART users) here over the needs of the few (Wexford users) and rightfully so.

The reality is the Dublin is growing massively and their is limited space, whether that is road space, rail space or accommodation and we will need to adjust the use of that space to focus on services that deliver the most users. Whether that is road space given over to buses/bikes or rail space given over to DART.

Connectivity for those further out can be maintained by connecting onto busier mass transit services. Whether that is from a local/orbital bus onto a core spine bus or from one train to another.

And this can lead to much higher frequency of service and much better service overall for the majority.

To be honest having changed trains in Limerick Junction frequently, it really is no hardship.

BTW let me give you another future possibility. IR are planning to buy lots of new bimode diesel electric trains. They call it the DART expansion plan, but these trains are more like ICR's then really DARTs. These trains could operate from Wexford as far as Greystones as Diesels and then change to electric operation from Greystones. They could then act as DARTs from there in stopping at each station in. There shouldn't be much penalty in journey time as they would have the faster acceleration/decelartion of an electric train and anyway they would be constrained by the DART ahead of it anyway. At least this would allow you to not need to change, not that I believe it is too much of a hardship.

I wonder if you could even have one of these trains connect up with another four carriage train at Greystones to operate as an 8 piece set from there in. Interesting idea, but might be operationally too difficult.

You could combine the above for the three directs with IE 222's idea for a shuttle service in between with a change to improve frequency might be quiet a workable solution to boost usage of this line.

Just ideas. Just sitting there and saying you don't want anything to change isn't going to get you anywhere, it is not realistic given the way Dublin is growing. Try and find inventive ways to work with that reality.

if they have capacity for a 10 minute dart, then the wexford line services continuing to use the stretch from bray to dublin is a non-issue. direct services are the only show in town. again limerick junction is an irrelevant comparison given it's a change from a branch onto a limited stop long distance inter city service with limited stops depending on service.

XPS_Zero · 10-07-2018 2:21pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I like the latter suggestion but as a regular on the Rosslare line trains I think you would find it difficult to find a seconder for the idea of changing at Bray. The current experience is far removed from the fantasy portrayed in CIE advertising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGXh4xsBo

Yes look at that nice comfy ICR. Poor passenger that watches that and gets the Rosslare train, then waiting at Bray sees a green and yellow commuter train approaching to take them on their intercity trip that's freezing cold and leaky when it rains.

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Changing trains is not exactly something new, but detraining from a nominal intercity train into a commuter train to complete a journey is and is a retrograde step. If it happens it will be the final nail in the coffin of services south of Gorey.

Not sure that's like with like. The Dublin-Beflast Line is double or triple tracked the whole way, the reason Rosslare is so slow (and ALWAYS shows my bloody DART down) is because it's single tracked, so there is no reason to get off at Malahide on the Enterprise, when it takes 10 min or so to get from there to Connoly.

The Rosslare train on the other hand isn't more than 10 min faster than the DART. Try it, get the Rosslare train from Connoly to bray. Before you get a dart to turn back around to go to Killiney or Shankill you will see the DART BEHIND the Rosslare train you just got off pass you by on it's way to Greystones. It' would not make much difference in timing.

I get the fear of them using it as an excuse to close the line, but that excuse will be based on passenger demand which will stay the same south of greystones either way. The best way to do this would be to get IE (and govt) to commit to keeping the line open if they do this.

prinzeugen wrote: »

But that is changing from one InterCity train to another, same at Limerick Jnt.

People are going to be kicked off a InterCity train at Bray and will have to complete the journey on a slow, crowded DART. Great thing to be doing if you are a foot passenger of a Rosslare ferry with suitcases and kids in tow.

They will just get the bus.

As we've discussed here before the trains are not even attempting to be timed for the ferry so the number of ferry passengers is tiny, and most ferry passengers are car passengers anyway. In addition, there is loads of space for luggage on the DART outside rush hour. As to inside rush hour just don't plan the trip that way and you'll be fine.
I am not of the opinion (as some are here) to just write this line off, we should try to improve it THEN if it's not working consider what to do, and the first thing that should be tried is linking it to the ferry and promoting it:

1. Special combi-tickets along the railsail model.
2. Putting a full ICR service on it

3. Using the ICRs with the restaurant car on it (as they should on sligo)
4. Doing something (like this) to increase the frequency
5. Tying it properly to ferry times (the snow storm and ash cloud incident proved it's possible)
6. Running direct between Bray and Connoly, the stop at DL is pointless.

I'm honestly amazed that serious intelligent people here are making a comparison between the Enterprise and Rosslare, are you guys for real or what? apples and oranges! The Enterprise is at least 85% full on it's least busy service even it's first class section often fills up really close to capacity. The lines are totally different, the frequency, the quality of service.

CatInABox wrote: »

Here's the NTA's Heavy Rail Census from 2016. It shows 574 passengers got on the Rosslare to Dundalk train up to Greystones. At Greystones and Bray, a further 461 would get on, but there's no real way of telling if these people are heading to a Dart stop rather than onward to Dundalk.

I wonder how much improvement to the frequency there could actually be, seeing as it's single track south of Greystones.

Either way, I do think that this line will have to go through some changes in the future, particularly with the ten minute Dart schedule coming in. It's all well and good saying that transport systems should be designed for the few and not for the many, but the affects of this policy can be a disaster. If a service isn't frequent or reliable, then people will turn to their car, adding to the gridlock, impacting on other services.

There is, unfortunately. I got this train a few times because it ran direct to dundalk from Bray (which was close to me saved me going into town) and it was so packed it was hard to breathe...until town, then it was 90% empty.

But it was packed at Bray from south of the line. I assume that train continues to Dundalk because its going there anyway probably for a turn around so may as well carry passengers.

What are the physical barriers to double or triple tracking? Is there physical room for it? We can always find the money but will it involve drilling through mountains and repositioning station platforms?
They won't put that much effort and investment in for the sake of a quiet service.

bk · 10-07-2018 2:27pm

end of the road wrote: »

frequency and convenience drives demand. frequency is no good if someone is having to change part way just because onto an all stops suburban, making the service inconvenient.

Bull, people change lines everyday in London without giving it an even second thought. If you look at any modern cities public transport network, the whole thing is built around people constantly changing between services.

Vastly more people change at Limerick Junction everyday then the Wexford line, without complaint.

This is just more of the same that you see over in the BusConnects thread. Like the person there who wants to keep his once every two hour service that goes direct into the city, rather then the new proposed every 20 minute service for his area which requires a change onto a faster more frequent service!

Modern transport networks are built around changing between services.

If services from Wexford can be maintained while increasing Dart to the levels it needs, then great, no problem, fire away. But if it comes down to a choice between more DART's or maintaining Wexford services, then clearly the Wexford services should be dropped.

I'd rather not see that happen and if a change is the only option, then better that then losing the service completely. Lets wait and see what they come up with under the DART expansion.

Jamie2k9 · 10-07-2018 2:29pm

I still can't believe the support for changing to a DART here. Yes there is issues at Bray Head but if you wanted a 2-3 hourly service could operate to Wexford or Rosslare.

Simply you terminate a DART at Bray instead and give the path to the other service. The majority of passengers from Graystones would have no problem taking an ICR into town instead of a DART and for passenger convince stop at DL, GCD, Pease and Tara (I know most already do).

It would be possibly to run an extra 1 or 2 daily services when driver resources allow if there was demand and funding. Many passengers on the route are likely annual ticket holders and changing to a DART would make them look for alternatives.

A shuttle from Rosslare/Bray has a lot of operational problems and sets will still need to run into Connolly. Limerick/Tralee shuttles are very different from an operational and convenience point of view.

bk · 10-07-2018 2:37pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

What are the physical barriers to double or triple tracking? Is there physical room for it? We can always find the money but will it involve drilling through mountains and repositioning station platforms?
They won't put that much effort and investment in for the sake of a quiet service.

Sure nothing is impossible if you throw enough money at it. But realistically it would cost billions and billions, which simply wouldn't be reasonable for a service that carries 600 people a day.

Even a better quality service wouldn't bring substantially more people as the towns along this line are relatively very small and just don't have the populations to support that sort investment.

What would be involved:
- Quad track Bray to the city center. You are talking about CPOing some of the most expensive property and home in the country. Plus most of the line is in a cut and cover, so lots of difficult construction.
- Tunnel a double track under Bray head :eek:

I mean it is technically possible but it would have a terrible economic return.

That is why people try and come up with more inventive ways around the issue like changing onto Dart, etc. Try and work around the problem that is there with affordable solutions.

Of course the other approach is ignore the whole thing and hope it goes away. Let people take the bus from Wexford that is a lot faster, cheaper and more frequent. This seems to be the approach IE and the government have mostly taken.

bk · 10-07-2018 2:42pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Simply you terminate a DART at Bray instead and give the path to the other service. The majority of passengers from Graystones would have no problem taking an ICR into town instead of a DART and for passenger convince stop at DL, GCD, Pease and Tara (I know most already do).

It is a good idea, but two issues:

- The people of Greystones would lose their mind and they are a politically very well connected bunch of people. Frankly the DART should have never been extended to there. But here we are now.

- You really want this service to stop at every station from Bray in have the passenger capacity to take DART load of passengers. A 3 carriage commuter train would be a massive reduction in capacity versus a DART from Bray in.

Jamie2k9 · 10-07-2018 2:47pm

bk wrote: »

It is a good idea, but two issues:

- The people of Greystones would lose their mind and they are a politically very well connected bunch of people. Frankly the DART should have never been extended to there. But here we are now.

- You really want this service to stop at every station from Bray in have the passenger capacity to take DART load of passengers. A 3 carriage commuter train would be a massive reduction in capacity versus a DART from Bray in.

But would they?, so many already use existing non DART services and it would likely be off peak termination because peak hours have a good service. As it not a "cut" I can't see why it couldn't get past even with politics aside.

No, only extra stop than existing services is GCD purely to accommodate Graystones passengers.

bk · 10-07-2018 2:57pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

But would they?, so many already use existing non DART services and it would likely be off peak termination because peak hours have a good service. As it not a "cut" I can't see why it couldn't get past even with politics aside.

Yes they would, big time. It is their campaigning in the first place that got DART extended there. Just having DART there, even with a poor level of service, helps pop up property prices.

Politically it would also look bad to be decreasing electrification, rather then increasing it.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No, only extra stop than existing services is GCD purely to accommodate Graystones passengers.

Then it would be a non starter as it would waste valuable capacity that a DART gives you.

listermint · 10-07-2018 3:17pm

bk wrote: »

Even a better quality service wouldn't bring substantially more people as the towns along this line are relatively very small and just don't have the populations to support that sort investment.

Populations totaling 188,466 on the towns serviced by this line, That is not including neighbouring towns just the 6 large towns on the line.

Im not sure what the head count you were expecting but that is larger than Cork city and the same as Limerick.

so.... erm...

end of the road · 10-07-2018 3:19pm

bk wrote: »

Bull, people change lines everyday in London without giving it an even second thought. If you look at any modern cities public transport network, the whole thing is built around people constantly changing between services.

again these are not a like for like comparison given people will be going from 1 suburban station on 1 line to another on another, or changing from a long distance service to somewhere not served.
in the case of the wexford line, people would be chucked off their service on the edge of dublin to continue the rest of the way on a slow overcrowded all stops suburban service, whereas they would have had a direct to dublin service before hand. it would be like chucking people off long distance services which would have once gone to london, at places like bedford or reding.

bk wrote: »

Vastly more people change at Limerick Junction everyday then the Wexford line, without complaint.

again they are changing from a branch service to a limited stop fastish inter city service. again not a like for like comparison tbh.

bk wrote: »

This is just more of the same that you see over in the BusConnects thread. Like the person there who wants to keep his once every two hour service that goes direct into the city, rather then the new proposed every 20 minute service for his area which requires a change onto a faster more frequent service!

again not a like for like comparison given he may get more services to extra destinations out of it. however if what he currently has benefits him and he is happy with it then as ungreat as the service frequency on his route is currently then i'm not surprised he wants to either keep what he has or wish for an improved frequency but direct service instead.

bk wrote: »

Modern transport networks are built around changing between services.

yes but where it makes sense, and not change for change sake as would be the case with the wexford line.

bk wrote: »

If services from Wexford can be maintained while increasing Dart to the levels it needs, then great, no problem, fire away. But if it comes down to a choice between more DART's or maintaining Wexford services, then clearly the Wexford services should be dropped.

I'd rather not see that happen and if a change is the only option, then better that then losing the service completely. Lets wait and see what they come up with under the DART expansion.

a change will cause us to lose the service completely when people abandon it for the car anyway. direct services are the only show in town. absolutely nothing stopping an improved frequency with direct services from happening apart from IE'S lack of will.

Lord Glentoran · 10-07-2018 3:38pm

bk wrote: »

Funny the idea of transferring between services will become the norm for buses with BusConnects.

Same between Luas and Metro at Sandyford.

Transferring will become the norm throughout our transport system as it is in other European cities. People south of Bray can either continue with the same level of crappy service or they can do a quick transfer and get a much more frequent service.

All that will do is allow bus promoters to jump up and down and say “lookie! Lookie! No change to Dublin!”

Another excuse to provide a worse service on the railways and ultimately close them, to the benefit of private bus operators.

Stephen15 · 10-07-2018 4:03pm

bk wrote: »

Yes they would, big time. It is their campaigning in the first place that got DART extended there. Just having DART there, even with a poor level of service, helps pop up property prices.

Politically it would also look bad to be decreasing electrification, rather then increasing it.

What was there before the DART in Greystones. The once an hour 84 and 4 or 5 trains a day. It made sense to electrify the line to there as the town is too far out for a decent bus service.

Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

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