Is it any wonder the railways are under threat!

Del.Monte

Meant to post this ages ago but better late than never. It is this sort of ill informed crap that let's CIE away with murder. I wonder when the CEO of Wexford County Council last took the train - in days of steam? There isn't a passenger who uses the service who would be happy to be dumped out on Bray to change onto the DART. lrish Rail will be like Ryanair, a company that takes you near to the place you want to go. :rolleyes:

L1011

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services. Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services. Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

I like the latter suggestion but as a regular on the Rosslare line trains I think you would find it difficult to find a seconder for the idea of changing at Bray. The current experience is far removed from the fantasy portrayed in CIE advertising.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHvGXh4xsBo

Chris_5339762

And none of that will happen because of the single track nature of the bit around Bray Head. Should be fixed, but would cost an absolute fortune.

bk

Del.Monte wrote: »

I like the latter suggestion but as a regular on the Rosslare line trains I think you would find it difficult to find a seconder for the idea of changing at Bray. The current experience is far removed from the fantasy portrayed in CIE advertising.

Funny the idea of transferring between services will become the norm for buses with BusConnects.

Same between Luas and Metro at Sandyford.

Transferring will become the norm throughout our transport system as it is in other European cities. People south of Bray can either continue with the same level of crappy service or they can do a quick transfer and get a much more frequent service.

CatInABox

The Dart would be scheduled to take account of the train from Wexford, i.e. the train from Wexford would pull into the station, passengers would step off the train onto the platform, and the Dart would be waiting there for them, doors open. The inconvenience will be small, while the benefits will be large.

LeinsterDub

I'd happily transfer

Del.Monte

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Changing trains is not exactly something new, but detraining from a nominal intercity train into a commuter train to complete a journey is and is a retrograde step. If it happens it will be the final nail in the coffin of services south of Gorey.

LeinsterDub

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth....

Makes sense to me. Increase Dart and other suburban trains frequency. Also increase the frequency of IC trains.

Just this Saturday I got the train from Drumcondra to Maynooth. Super service rendered also most useless by its frequency. Now if the IC service and the commuter service can exists side by side with a decent service then clearly this wouldn't be needed.

Corca Baiscinn

Del.Monte wrote: »

If it's good enough for Rosslare line passengers why stop there. The Enterprise could stop at Malahide; the Sligo at Maynooth...

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

I'm fairly certain most passengers would be willing to transfer to a barely slower DART if it meant a significant increase in services.

i'd very much doubt it if i'm honest. the odd time where that has had to be done due to a breakdown it has lead to very many annoyed passengers. increased services would go nowhere near to justify this tbh, not that it would be justifiable anyway.

L1011 wrote: »

Without a rolling stock order it's about the only chance of anything until DART expansion releases the 29000s on those routes - so a decade

Could even justify reopening one of the bars in Bray station!

as it stands we are cronically short of rolling stock even if 2900s could be released (and it's trying to get rid of them from the rosslare line we are) not trying to get more of the retchid things! . as it stands a rolling stock order is needed.

CatInABox wrote: »

The Dart would be scheduled to take account of the train from Wexford, i.e. the train from Wexford would pull into the station, passengers would step off the train onto the platform, and the Dart would be waiting there for them, doors open. The inconvenience will be small, while the benefits will be large.

the inconvenience most certainly wouldn't be small in reality. it would be the difference between any increased services being used and a complete flop, and worst case, us losing the lot. there will be no real if any actual benefits either.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Makes sense to me. Increase Dart and other suburban trains frequency. Also increase the frequency of IC trains.

Just this Saturday I got the train from Drumcondra to Maynooth. Super service rendered also most useless by its frequency. Now if the IC service and the commuter service can exists side by side with a decent service then clearly this wouldn't be needed.

increases in service for commuters and others can already be done without degraded inter city services or even their loss. it's difficult but doable given they will be supposibly be able to fit a 10 minute dart through the core. an increase in frequency of inter city trains can only be direct services to insure any chance of their use, and to insure a comfortable and convenient rail option which is what we all want, isn't it?

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Funny the idea of transferring between services will become the norm for buses with BusConnects.

Same between Luas and Metro at Sandyford.

not a like for like comparison though. with dublin's bus system you have lots of routes with people transferring around the network having to go to different places. with the rail services, you effectively have a small few lines where long distance services travel the length of those lines which in turn provide some express services to some of the suburban stations. so changing from those services onto slow suburban services just to go to the capital is change for changes sake and delivers nothing to make it worth using the services.

bk wrote: »

Transferring will become the norm throughout our transport system as it is in other European cities. People south of Bray can either continue with the same level of crappy service or they can do a quick transfer and get a much more frequent service.

a transfer won't be that quick in reality, that's from personal experience the odd time it has happened. whatever about in a breakdown situation having to transfer on to an all stops hell of a lot slower dart, i couldn't see extra services being used tbh with that in place.
transfers in other cities happen because people are going to many different places and services won't be necessarely going their way. it's the same with the bus networks as currently. whereas our railways being small mean dublin is the main destination.

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Limerick passengers change all the tme at Limerick Junction and the conecting train is as poster above said waiting at the platform. It's rather Dart like too!

however in turn for that they get on to a fastish limited stop service, so not really a comparison to the rosslare line.

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

Since there are only 3 services a day from Wexford as opposed to 6+ to/from Sligo and Belfast we're looking for a solution that might improve fthe Wexford service and not the others

changing onto a slow dart most certainly isn't the solution.

testicles

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end of the road

testicles wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

why should wexford have to change too. just because you have to do it doesn't mean others should, especially when there is no valid reason for it or benefit in turn for those users.
as i said above limerick passengers change onto a limited stop express service from cork (and even then limerick services should go back to being direct to release cork services to be even more limited stop and be more competitive)
in wexford's case users would be changing onto an all stops dart which is a lot slower then the current services is within the dublin area. so limerick gets some benefit, wexford would get disbenefit.

IE 222

A 3 car ICR running between Bray and Wexford would give an extra 3 services each way providing a service every 2hrs roughly with current services. It would also allow for a earlier morning departure from Dublin (with a transfer at Bray)

bk

I totally forgot about Limerick Junction! Vastly busier and more frequent services then Wexford changing there every day pretty smoothly and without delay. I've done it myself loads of times heading to Killarney, it was so easy and unmemorable I literally forgot it as the obvious example

And most recently I did it with a buggy and two year old in tow! I mean it was literally step off train, walk 5 steps, step on train, oh mercy how hard was that :rolleyes:

Really no excuse why this wouldn't work just as well here and double the frequency on this line to something half reasonable.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

a transfer won't be that quick in reality, that's from personal experience the odd time it has happened. whatever about in a breakdown situation having to transfer on to an all stops hell of a lot slower dart, i couldn't see extra services being used tbh with that in place.

Well it is going to happen either way. The 10 minute DART schedule from Bray will come into effect in a few months and trains from Wexford will end up just crawling behind the every 10 minutes all station DARTs anyway.

And it won't stop there, as demand increases DARTs will likely go even higher frequency at peak times.

The number of passengers from south of Greystones is insanely small. The reality is the focus will be on DART and they will get priority over such a lightly used service.

prinzeugen

It wont work as it will make the train slower than coach or car. People will stop using the train and it will give IE justification to close the line.

And how/where will the trains be serviced/fuelled? They are still going to have to run to Dublin anyway (unless IE open a new depot in Wexford which won't happen).

This idea is like what almost killed many non commuter lines in the UK in the late 70's/early 80's.

Passengers travelling on new InterCity trains had to complete the journey on old, slow cramped trains. Its why BR spent ££££ on new trains for provincial routes.

Another example of some people thinking the world revolves around the 9-5 commuters.

Quackster

Direct Dublin-Tralee services were reduced to one-a-day each way back in the naughties when the frequency was ramped up and I certainly wouldn't change things (unless an increase of capacity on the Dublin-Cork corridor were needed and could be delivered with more direct services to Limerick/Tralee).

Frequency really is king when you're a regular user of these services. Changing becomes second nature.

Jamie2k9

I'm not convinced switching to DART will work. The line needs radical ideas but at this time not much can be done.

Limerick works because of frequency and more importantly speed, its quicker by between 10-20 minutes changing at Limerick J than going direct at peak times. Direct Limerick are not really there to serve Limerick as such.

prinzeugen

Quackster wrote: »

Direct Dublin-Tralee services were reduced to one-a-day each way back in the naughties when the frequency was ramped up and I certainly wouldn't change things (unless an increase of capacity on the Dublin-Cork corridor were needed and could be delivered with more direct services to Limerick/Tralee).

Frequency really is king when you're a regular user of these services. Changing becomes second nature.

But that is changing from one InterCity train to another, same at Limerick Jnt.

People are going to be kicked off a InterCity train at Bray and will have to complete the journey on a slow, crowded DART. Great thing to be doing if you are a foot passenger of a Rosslare ferry with suitcases and kids in tow.

They will just get the bus.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Well it is going to happen either way.

which is? a slowing down of services or a change? the first is likely, the second not so, if they want a service to continue south of greystones.

bk wrote: »

The 10 minute DART schedule from Bray will come into effect in a few months and trains from Wexford will end up just crawling behind the every 10 minutes all station DARTs anyway.

at least we will be moving, rather then stopping at every station. better to be crawling a bit faster and not stopping then crawling and stopping everywhere. so the non-stopping direct service will always be that bit better.

bk wrote: »

And it won't stop there, as demand increases DARTs will likely go even higher frequency at peak times.

well if they can fit in dart at 10 minutes and aim for higher, then they can continue with other services all be it a bit slower. not to forget the supposed improvements in maynooth frequency as well that they are apparently planning to implement.

bk wrote: »

The number of passengers from south of Greystones is insanely small. The reality is the focus will be on DART and they will get priority over such a lightly used service.

dart always gets and always has got priority over everything else and has always been the focus so unless everyone else is having pointless cuts and changes for dart, then this is nothing new.

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

It wont work as it will make the train slower than coach or car. People will stop using the train and it will give IE justification to close the line.

But that has already happened, people aren't using it. Passenger numbers south of Greystones are already laughably low. Last time I checked it was under 600 people a day!

That wouldn't even half fill a single DART. If IE want to close the line, frankly the justification is clearly there.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Another example of some people thinking the world revolves around the 9-5 commuters.

And yet here are people trying to come up with reasonable solutions to increasing all day frequency!

Stephen15

The line to Wexford could classed as IEs problem child at present it's a very slow line particularly between Wicklow and Arklow when the line goes inland. A also the train is held up by the DART which also has a riddiculously slow section between DL and Dalkey.

The Enterprise dosen't suffer as badly but still suffers between Malahide and Connolly the DART line is much faster and there are less stops. The ideal situation for the Wexford line would be three tracking between Bray and Connolly and faster line speeds.

Very little motivation to get the train to/from Wexford when the bus is quicker, cheaper and more frequent. Also the line doesn't have that many population centres. Only reasonably sized towns South of Bray along the line are Wicklow 10,000, Arklow 14,000, Gorey 10,000, Enniscouthy 11,000 and Wexford 20,000.

Other lines which are doing better but still not exactly thriving have more reasonably sized towns on their lines and terminate in small cities such as Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Galway and have larger intermediate stops.

marno21

prinzeugen wrote: »

But that is changing from one InterCity train to another, same at Limerick Jnt.

People are going to be kicked off a InterCity train at Bray and will have to complete the journey on a slow, crowded DART. Great thing to be doing if you are a foot passenger of a Rosslare ferry with suitcases and kids in tow.

They will just get the bus.

At the same times the DART would be "crowded" the M11/N11 is a massive congested mess. Off with them to the bus if they rather sit in that

bk

end of the road wrote: »

which is? a slowing down of services or a change? the first is likely, the second not so, if they want a service to continue south of greystones.

Increase in frequency of DART, which will cause other services behind it to slow down. Just the reality of a shared two track line.

The service behind will be no faster then a high frequency DART, that is the reality.

BTW I've no doubt Irish Rail would do cartwheels of joy if they were left close it down. If it wasn't for the presence of Greystones and the need to serve it they would already have done so, I'm sure. South of Greystones is completely an after thought for them. Why would it, it carries less then 600 people a day!

end of the road wrote: »

at least we will be moving, rather then stopping at every station. better to be crawling a bit faster and not stopping then crawling and stopping everywhere. so the non-stopping direct service will always be that bit better.

No, you will be going at exactly the same speed. You can't go any faster then the train ahead of you, obviously!

end of the road wrote: »

well if they can fit in dart at 10 minutes and aim for higher, then they can continue with other services all be it a bit slower. not to forget the supposed improvements in maynooth frequency as well that they are apparently planning to implement.

Not necessarily. Perhaps they are able to fit in more DARTs because they reduce other services.

Of course the part you are busily overlooking is that we are looking to double the frequency of services to Wexford in return for people having to change and no overall change in journey time.

end of the road wrote: »

dart always gets and always has got priority over everything else and has always been the focus so unless everyone else is having pointless cuts and changes for dart, then this is nothing new.

Yes and it will get even more focus and priority in future. Best to figure out how to work around it, pointless in trying to fight it.

prinzeugen

bk wrote: »

But that has already happened, people aren't using it. Passenger numbers south of Greystones are already laughably low. Last time I checked it was under 600 people a day!

That wouldn't even half fill a single DART. If IE want to close the line, frankly the justification is clearly there.



And yet here are people trying to come up with reasonable solutions to increasing all day frequency!

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

And whats the point of doubling frequency if only 600 use it?

IE 222

I think the key here is to make the service like the Limerick service in the sense you keep the current direct services in place (3 a day) running to and from Dublin. Terminating the early Gorey communter at Bray and keeping that to run services between Bray and Wexford throughout the day is were the extra frequency comes from. This will offer a reasonable timed morning service from Dublin (Bray) around 7:30ish before the current 9:40am.

bk

prinzeugen wrote: »

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

I'd have absolutely no problem with doing any of the above if it leads to a better commuter and mass transit service and in fact have suggested as much in the past.

Trains into Hueston wouldn't need to as that is quad tracked, which of course is the ideal and you don't have to make this trade off. But Drogheda, sure if it makes sense.

Ideally we would at least triple if not quad track the northern line, though it will be expensive to do, so yes eventually the solution may well be to curtail services further out. Though maybe they will find enough money to CPO homes to at least triple track it.

Maynooth should be able to handle higher frequency DARTs and Sligo trains for now, but eventually it might be needed to do the same there.

Obviously the Wexford line is a whole other kettle of fish. Bray head is just a disaster that there is simply no reasonable way to overcome.

You seem to be taking this personally. The folks aren't saying they hate the folks in Wexford, lets give them a crap service. No it is the reality of Brunels Folley and what a tough problem it is and the reality that the focus needs to be on the vast majority of people who use rail services in Dublin every day and not a small number of intercity passengers.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

BTW I've no doubt Irish Rail would do cartwheels of joy if they were left close it down. If it wasn't for the presence of Greystones and the need to serve it they would already have done so, I'm sure. South of Greystones is completely an after thought for them. Why would it, it carries less then 600 people a day!

it's not an after thought because of the numbers of users (which is a lot more then 600) . it's an afterthought because "it's always been that way"
that is how CIE operates the railway, on the basis of "it's always been done that way" . if it is not a line that has been operated decently in the past, then it is either not going to be in the future or they are going to be pressured in some way to operate it better as i have a feeling happened with both the wexford and sligo lines to lead to their service increases from 3 trains a day.

bk wrote: »

Not necessarily. Perhaps they are able to fit in more DARTs because they reduce other services.

perhapse, but it's not everyone elses job to lose out for dart. as important as it maybe it's not so important that everyone else has to lose services.

bk wrote: »

Of course the part you are busily overlooking is that we are looking to double the frequency of services to Wexford in return for people having to change and no overall change in journey time.

there is no evidence there would be no over all change in journey time. it's likely that journey times would increase, + the change for change sake, meaning the new services are inconvenient.

bk wrote: »

Yes and it will get even more focus and priority in future. Best to figure out how to work around it, pointless in trying to fight it.

if it causes no major issues then working around it is what will happen. if it causes a hugely degraded service then fighting it is the right thing to do.

IE 222

prinzeugen wrote: »

600 people a day is about right for an InterCity service. Thats just under the seating capacity of a 3 car 22000 class ICR, 3 times a day (on the basis a 3 car set seats 192 people more if its 4 car). Hardly laughable numbers.

Sure why don't they terminate the Enterprise at Drogheda and force people onto slow, stopping commuter services in/out of Dublin?

Stop all Cork/West of Ireland trains in Killdare and force people onto stopping trains?

Stop all Sligo trains in Maynooth?

Because that is what is being asked of Rosslare/Wexford passengers.

And whats the point of doubling frequency if only 600 use it?

Personally i think a tidying up of this service will improve things dramatically.

As I stated about keeping the 3 direct Dublin - Roslare and curtailing the current Gorey service between Bray and Wexford the line would massively benefit with increased frequencies. The line should only need 3 3ICR's to run the service.

In return IE should also run the direct services non-stop between Dublin and Greystones to keep the train free from Dart passengers. Better timetabling could allow for terminating a Dart at Dun Laoghaire when the 10min frequency comes into effect to give the Wexford services a clear run. With the overall increase in Darts I don't think many can complain if 4-6 Darts are cut short over the course of the day. Ideally if trains can be timetabled for direct Roslare services to cross at DUN Laoghaire this will reduce the number of Darts needed to be terminated there and should knock 15-20mins of the Roslare journey time.