Vectoring near to the exchange

murphaph

I'm curious about the current regulations in Ireland. Can Eircom vector cabinets that are <550m from the exchange? I know that direct fed is not vectored, right? But what about actual cabinet fed that just happens to be very close to the exchange, what are the rules there?

For some context:
Here in Germany it is forbidden to use vectoring on any cabinet within 550m of the exchange, because it apparently causes interference to the other lines. In Germany we have LLU as well, so Vodafone or Telefonica or whoever can install their DSLAMs inside Deutsche Telekom exchanges, just like BT did in Ireland.

The German regulator is however expected today to grant Deutsche Telekom a hardware monopoly on lines affected by this 800m regulation, because so many households are now limited to ADSL2+ speeds and because the exchanges are typically quite centrally located, the numbers of affected premises is high. Telekom says for its part, that if they get the go ahead (Vodafone etc. will have to remove or disconnect their exchange mounted VDSL equipment, though they can continue offering ADSL on LLU lines from the exchange) that they will upgrade every single cabinet within the 550m zones (there are 8,000 exchanges in Germany) within 3 years to vectored VDSL.

The promise of upgrading every single exchange is seen as a political pre-requisite for any such monopoly status being granted to Telekom because it is the only way that rural exchanges with a handful of lines are going to be upgraded. Nobody is interested in them otherwise and many (really very many) have "DSL Light" (something like .500kbps download, 128 upload) and are not on the radar for any upgrades. In this way, Telekom says it will cross subsidise the loss making rural exchanges from the profitable urban ones and they say it's "all or nothing".

ED E

The Austrians were brought in to do a technical review. They found that VDSL cabs interfere in the downstream direction and DF lines with high PSD interfere in the upstream direction.

Theres a comreg publicised report, I cant't remember the number but if you search for fixed line pubs it'll be there.

EDIT: Check this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94075907

joe_99

There is no restriction on cabinet distances from the exchange. When making their decision ComReg did look at practices across Europe but after an extensive consultation it was decided that the network topology in Ireland was such that the level of interference from cabinets close to exchanges was negligible. Vectoring from exchanges is due to launch in the new year when a regime will be put in place to stop two VDSL providers from vectoring in the same exchange. I would expect 90% of exchanges to have vectoring applied. Only the big LLU exchanges will be left out.

sennah

joe_99 wrote: »

There is no restriction on cabinet distances from the exchange. When making their decision ComReg did look at practices across Europe but after an extensive consultation it was decided that the network topology in Ireland was such that the level of interference from cabinets close to exchanges was negligible. Vectoring from exchanges is due to launch in the new year when a regime will be put in place to stop two VDSL providers from vectoring in the same exchange. I would expect 90% of exchanges to have vectoring applied. Only the big LLU exchanges will be left out.

That's interesting news joe99

Are there many exchanges left in the country with LLU operators? I'd imagine BT and maybe Digiweb (via Smart) are the only LLU operators

Will exchange vectoring be running across all cards in the exchange or will they just be vectoring the VDSL equipment?

ED E

They can only vector VDSL kit as far as I know, the old line cards arent capable.

Number I've heard is less than 150 LLU of just over 900 DSL exchanges.

sennah

ED E wrote: »

They can only vector VDSL kit as far as I know, the old line cards arent capable.

Number I've heard is less than 150 LLU of just over 900 DSL exchanges.

Wow! I didn't think there'd be anywhere near 150 exchanges LLU'd. That's quite a few exchanges that will miss out and it will likely be the larger exchanges unfortunately

Interesting on vectoring too as I thought for exchange vectoring to be effective they had to vector across all cards but maybe we'll see it rolled out quicker now on account of this

joe_99

sennah wrote: »

That's interesting news joe99

Are there many exchanges left in the country with LLU operators? I'd imagine BT and maybe Digiweb (via Smart) are the only LLU operators

Will exchange vectoring be running across all cards in the exchange or will they just be vectoring the VDSL equipment?

There are about 100 LLU exchanges but I would only expect LLU operators to install VDSL DSLAMs in the larger ones. Where they do this there will be no vectoring as the two vectored DSLAMs will effectively cancel each other out so operators have agreed not to vector in these circumstances.

Vectoring will only be applied to VDSL

The Cush

Evdsl vectoring information from a proposed open eir contract document published on their website

ANNEX E

Protocol for enabling vectoring on Exchange launched VDSL (EVDSL)

open eir and Access Seekers acknowledge that a co-operative approach is required to strike a fair balance between promoting the interest of end users through the provision of broadband services with the highest speed possible whilst also enabling competition. Operators acknowledge that disruption to end users should be minimised to the maximum extent possible.

Process for already unbundled exchanges and exchanges in the process of establishing unbundling

1. The use of vectoring is not permitted from an exchange where more than one operator is providing an EVDSL service.

2. On an exchange by exchange basis an operator REBRANDED EVDSL must notify all Active EVDSL Operators* at least four (4) months prior to launching EVDSL from an exchange. The operators may choose to request the assistance of ComReg in this task

3. An operator intending to enable vectoring at any LLU exchange must provide a minimum of 3 months' notice of implementation

4. Prior to activating LLU EVDSL, Operators must ensure that they verify that the lines for which they intend to serve using EVDSL are eligible for EVDSL. Please refer to the Guidelines in the NGA IPM on LLU eVDSL.

5. Any operator already using vectoring technology at an exchange included or notified for inclusion in the schedule shall disable all vectoring, providing appropriate notice to their customers as required, in advance of the notified deployment date.

a. Operators shall manage their communication with their customers on this subject without naming specific operators that led to vectoring being disabled.

An Operator may enable vectoring if the second Operator’s EVDSL deployment has not been implemented within three (3) months after their notified deployment date. The option to launch does not automatically expire if the operator is late. If an operator becomes aware that it will miss a launch date communicated per paragraph 2 above by more than one (1) month then the operator must either withdraw the request or justify the delay and provide a revised launch date to all Active EVDSL Operators without delay.

In the case of an operator unbundling an exchange for the first time the operator shall use the process in paragraph 2 above if it intends to launch VDSL.

*An Active EVDSL Operator is an operator that has deployed EVDSL equipment and has previously given notice per paragraph 2.

http://www.openeir.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2964

sennah

The Cush wrote: »

Evdsl vectoring information from a proposed open eir contract document published on their website

This looks hopeful that we might see evdsl launch quite soon on non-LLU exchanges or am I reading it wrong and they've to give four months notice for ALL exchanges?

I've read some of Huawei's papers and from my understanding they just have to add a vectoring module to the new VDSL boards. Would these modules be already in-place and just require a change to the config or does enabling vectoring require boots on the ground?

mass_debater

I've been told the cards have been in place since they launched, just not enabled

sennah

mass_debater wrote: »

I've been told the cards have been in place since they launched, just not enabled

It would make sense in that it will negate the need for multiple exchange visits whenever they decide to make the move. I imagine one guy at his terminal can remotely light up vectoring in a handful of exchanges in a few clicks

I asked were the vectoring modules already in place as I don't imagine these little cards come too cheaply! I've spent a few evenings reading up on the subject and while most of it goes over my head, some of the facts and figures are quite amazing. From the sheer amount of raw data generated every second for crosstalk calculations and to then imagine the level of real-time processing taking place to mitigate this crosstalk. Fair play to eircom (and Huawei!)

ED E

All the MSANs have the cards, its enabled and tested by eircom NOC in Citywest .

ClonNGB

Anybody heard if eVDSL vectoring is going to happen this year ?

mass_debater

ClonNGB wrote: »

Anybody heard if eVDSL vectoring is going to happen this year ?

Yes, a few weeks ago I heard January but have not heard anything since q

Dcully

Does this mean the cab I'm connected to which is about 400M from exchange might get vectoring?

I'm less than 100m from the cab getting 70/20 speed and have been told over a year now they are awaiting this cab to be vectored before I can get closer to 100mb.

mass_debater

Dcully wrote: »

Does this mean the cab I'm connected to which is about 400M from exchange might get vectoring?

I'm less than 100m from the cab getting 70/20 speed and have been told over a year now they are awaiting this cab to be vectored before I can get closer to 100mb.

Some cabs never get vectored.

ED E

In theory when something bigger than NLV comes along they could be, but for now some may be excluded completely.

ClonNGB

mass_debater wrote: »

Yes, a few weeks ago I heard January but have not heard anything since q

January gone and no vectoring on the DF lines....has anybody heard any updates ?

Tweaky

Just bumping this thread - anyone have any updates on vectoring for direct fed lines ?

Thanks

joe_99

Tweaky wrote: »

Just bumping this thread - anyone have any updates on vectoring for direct fed lines ?

Thanks

I heard it will be another month or two

joe_99

Seems a big bunch of exchanges have been vectored in the last week or so

Hank Scorpio

If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?

ED E

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?

The benefit is 20-30% across the board, from memory the extremes see a lesser impact (say <100m and >1400m) but everyone gets something.

joe_99

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?

Those on 40/10 should get an uplift. Maybe 50/15 would be possible.

sennah

joe_99 wrote: »

Seems a big bunch of exchanges have been vectored in the last week or so

Is there a place to check this or lookout for it? I guess the line checker or fibrerollout.ie map

ClonNGB

any news on this anybody ? It was talked about that this should have been available earlier this year but nothing since. Have they found technical reasons not to switch on vectoring for us direct feds ?

lucernarian

What will happen for those on LLU connections that are ADSL and will always be ADSL?

vectoring only a proportion of all xDSl connections could have an impact on the remainder?

ED E

Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

Where vectoring causes problems it has to be left off.

sennah

ED E wrote: »

Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

Where vectoring causes problems it has to be left off.

Are you referring to LLU / multi-operator exchanges here or any exchange with ADSL?

The Cush

Our local exchange went live mid August, no LLU, up to 70 Mbps, 660 premises, no vectoring.

sennah

The Cush wrote: »

Our local exchange went live mid August, no LLU, up to 70 Mbps, 660 premises, no vectoring.

I don't think any exchange or cab for that matter went live with vectoring enabled from the get go (could be wrong)

My own exchange and all neighbouring exchanges are live over a year now, no LLU in any of them and no vectoring to be seen

ED E

sennah wrote: »

Are you referring to LLU / multi-operator exchanges here or any exchange with ADSL?

Any exchange, not just LLU.

LLU was a problem regarding eVDSL being allowed dooming BT but not a problem for vectoring.

The Cush wrote: »

Our local exchange went live mid August, no LLU, up to 70 Mbps, 660 premises, no vectoring.

Whats cab proximity like?

sennah wrote: »

I don't think any exchange or cab for that matter went live with vectoring enabled from the get go (could be wrong)

My own exchange and all neighbouring exchanges are live over a year now, no LLU in any of them and no vectoring to be seen

I think there have been FTTC cabs (not eVDSL exchanges) that have been vectored from the start. That'd be after the vectoring trials then the catch up vectoring so more recently.

The Cush

ED E wrote: »

Whats cab proximity like?

No cabs, all lines direct to the exchange.

sennah

ED E wrote: »

Any exchange, not just LLU.

LLU was a problem regarding eVDSL being allowed dooming BT but not a problem for vectoring.

...

That's a sudden kick in the nethers! I didn't realise VDSL vectoring posed such a risk to existing ADSL services. I would have assumed that many of the vectored cabs had ADSL pairs co-existing with vectored VDSL pairs where they broke out to distribution

How is it that some exchanges have been vectored (joe_99's post) as I don't imagine ADSL has been switched off in any area at this early stage? Could some exchange / local cabling environments just allow for vectoring and ADSL to work well together where other exchanges / areas see vectoring harming the existing ADSL pairs? Is the successful implementation of vectoring beside ADSL dependant on the condition / arrangement of the local network is what I'm asking?

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

Where vectoring causes problems it has to be left off.

Doesn't that mean that >100 of the largest exchanges won't have eVDSL2 with vectoring?

ED E

lucernarian wrote: »

Doesn't that mean that >100 of the largest exchanges won't have eVDSL2 with vectoring?

Not all, only where there's a Xtalk problem.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

Not all, only where there's a Xtalk problem.

How would there be problems for some and not for others? Most of the bigger digital exchanges are built sometime between 75 to 93. Similar MDFs and the switches are all AXE or E10/12. Xtalk will be inevitable, the number of customers seems to be the only variable.

ED E

Sorry, I worded this badly then lazily replied making my points very unclear.

ED E wrote: »

Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

Point here is ADSL cant be vectored. Some exchanges have BT + OpenEir (~100) and some are just OpenEir (800+) and a few are just POTS(<100 I think).

A: POTS Only: Some are getting eVDSL, can be vectored as there usually arent any cabs as its rural RSUs. No sign they'll ever get ADSL, just VDSL then FTTH. Some will be FTTH only by the looks of things.

B: LLU and non LLU Exchanges: Have ADSL. ADSL > VDSL, if VDSL causes a problem its the newcomer and loses. LLU doesnt matter (I suspected it did early on). VDSL LLU isnt a thing.

Limitations were put on eVDSL to use the 0-12Mhz while FTTC is allowed up to 17Mhz (other countries it goes as high as 30Mhz). Its possible that was lifted as I havent read all the pubs since.

NB: I wanna read back over the Dutch report (when Ive found the blighter) and extend this post as I'm not 100% sure of my answer just yet.

sennah

ED E wrote: »

...

Limitations were put on eVDSL to use the 0-12Mhz while FTTC is allowed up to 17Mhz (other countries it goes as high as 30Mhz). Its possible that was lifted as I havent read all the pubs since.

...

I'm on eVDSL on profile 17a but I do recall reading that some eVDSL exchanges were done on profile 12a

I'm literally sitting on top of my exchange - rural exchange with ADSL2+, no cabinets and worse again, the max attainable on my line is already well above what vectoring will bring anyway. It's showing 115/25 at present but the max available from any operator is 70/20. I want to see vectoring - not so much for myself - but for the general area as the drop in speed is quite high over even a short distance on the network round these parts

lucernarian

ADSL > VDSL, if VDSL causes a problem its the newcomer and loses. LLU doesnt matter (I suspected it did early on). VDSL LLU isnt a thing.

I think that's the crux of the question. The if. What's happening right now on the ground in open eir exchanges if ADSL (with or without LLU ) is present? Who determines what counts as an issue? I would say any eVDSL2 vector implementation would cause an issue with existing ADSL lines, as already mentioned a few times, ADSL can't be vectored.

Ultimately the fairest thing would be to not allow vectoring for any exchange that has ADSL cards ever.

ED E

Did a poster say it was just larger exchs that were seeing 70Mb caps indicating no vectoring?

A KISS answer would be they haven't got NLV cards or havent enabled it yet.

Vectoring can be used at three levels – Board-level Vectoring (BLV), System-level Vectoring (SLV), and Node-level Vectoring (NLV). For BLV, the Vectoring processing chip is integrated with the board, while the backplane and system architecture remain unchanged. For SLV, the processing chip is integrated with a large-capacity VP board that can support multiple Vectoring user boards. For NLV, multiple pieces of small or medium-capacity SLV equipment collaborate to provide large-capacity Vectoring. By selecting the suitable aforementioned applications, operators gain maximized increases in line speed while enjoying more reliable performance and smooth, low-cost transition.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

Did a poster say it was just larger exchs that were seeing 70Mb caps indicating no vectoring?

A KISS answer would be they haven't got NLV cards or havent enabled it yet.

Everything I've read right now is that larger exchanges don't have eVDSL vectoring. I'm concerned that this could change at some point "for the greater good".

NLV cards wouldn't solve the problem of co-located ADSL equipment anyway.

ED E

lucernarian wrote: »

Everything I've read right now is that larger exchanges don't have eVDSL vectoring. I'm concerned that this could change at some point "for the greater good".

NLV cards wouldn't solve the problem of co-located ADSL equipment anyway.

Board = 1 card
System = 1 cab
Node = multiple cabs co-lo

Is my understanding.

Its still all VDSL. Smaller exchanges would have a single MSAN so SLV would cover you but exchanges with upwards of 400 lines being fed eVDSL (not total) would require two racks which is then NLV territory.

I do know from prequals that paired cabs certainly can vector, but that's simpler than the big exchanges.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

Board = 1 card
System = 1 cab
Node = multiple cabs co-lo

Is my understanding.

Its still all VDSL. Smaller exchanges would have a single MSAN so SLV would cover you but exchanges with upwards of 400 lines being fed eVDSL (not total) would require two racks which is then NLV territory.

I do know from prequals that paired cabs certainly can vector, but that's simpler than the big exchanges.

Hate to harp on about this, but my question is about interference to ADSL in Open Eir exchanges.

The topology doesn't really make any difference for preventing crosstalk for ADSL lines I would think.

In summary, does anyone know if eircom has enabled vectoring in exchanges that already have ADSL (I think the answer is yes) and if so, why are they allowed...

And,

Who is going to monitor existing ADSL connections to ensure eircom are not interfering with anyone's longer ADSL line?

ED E

The TNO report sounds like its a self reporting process.

If vectoring isnt pushing the PSD I dont think it would increase the impact of VDSL on adjacent ADSL.

lucernarian

ED E wrote: »

The TNO report sounds like its a self reporting process.

If vectoring isnt pushing the PSD I dont think it would increase the impact of VDSL on adjacent ADSL.

How could PSD not be affected when VDSL vectoring would treat all ADSL as "noise"?

I've got serious doubt about all this

The Cush

http://www.openeir.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=4043

Updated to accommodate the changes in the VDSL2 profiles including the addition of vectored High Stability VDSL2 profiles table for eVDSL. Changes to the profile tables 5,6,7 adds a minimum and maximum speed for each headline speed. In the high stability tables the exchange min. download speeds can be lower than the equivalent cabinet speeds. The addition of Profile 8b B8-4 (Annex B G.993.2) probably explains that

Profile 8b B8-4 (Annex B G.993.2) is used in the case of exchange launched VDSL2 only. This is to deliver lower rate line speeds in order to meet undertakings agreed with the introduction of EVDSL in 2015

2. The modem shall support VDSL2 Profile 17a B8-11 as defined in Annex B of G.993.2.
3. The modem shall support profile 8b B8-4 from G.993.2

sat matt

Looking at eir's map it seems a good few exchanges have gone vectored recently and are now listing up to 100mb. I've checked some lines around home too and they are passing for higher speeds than before

Anyone else seeing vectoring on their exchange VDSL?

Tweaky

sat matt wrote: »

Looking at eir's map it seems a good few exchanges have gone vectored recently and are now listing up to 100mb. I've checked some lines around home too and they are passing for higher speeds than before

Anyone else seeing vectoring on their exchange VDSL?

My upload speed has increased and my attainable speed has jumped as well. Must contact vodafone to look at my profile and hopefully change it

sat matt

Tweaky wrote: »

My upload speed has increased and my attainable speed has jumped as well. Must contact vodafone to look at my profile and hopefully change it

I've a feeling that a good few of these exchanges went vectored back in December. Line tests now reflect the higher speeds

I'll be back down at the parents during the week so I'll get a look in and see if they are in fact vectored. Their latest line check results would indicate vectoring

lockup35

The line checker shows my fibre speed has increased so it appears vectoring has finally been enabled at the exchange.