Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

Harrybelafonte · 20-05-2010 6:47am #1

Wall Street Journal piece

Is this old news?

Mod Note 03/02/12

I've put this warning in post #1,230, but am repeating it here to ensure everyone sees it without having to scan through bthe whole thread

Please remember doping speculation is not allowed. None of us are privvy to the fine details of the investigation, or the reasons for the decision of the Federal Investigators (which appears not to have been disclosed)

Thanks

Beasty

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 7:46am

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Is this old news?

Yes and no. It was obvious what was going on, but he's the first person directly involved to fully spill the beans like this.

Funny, there was a lot of speculation that Landis would eventually come clean. More than one person felt he wasn't the kind of guy who could keep quiet about it.

Next few weeks are going to be very interesting. Quite possibly there'll be no Radioshack or BMC at the Tour.

Junior · 20-05-2010 8:01am

No it's not old news, but it's going to be interesting to see how the UCI deal with this now, since in my eye's it's hoisted by it's petard. How so ? Well McQuaid has come out and called Pellizotti a cheat without due process and he's not been given due process, now that these accusations have been levelled at Armstrong and Co you'd have to wonder how they will deal with them.

Landis is an angry, angry man, it's going to be interesting to see how Armstrong tries to make this go away.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 8:05am

A few peoples lawyers will be earning their crust today I'd say.

Diarmuid · 20-05-2010 8:09am

Lots of "no comments" in that article. it was only a matter of time before someone broke ranks and spilled the blood.. I mean, beans

petethedrummer · 20-05-2010 8:18am

All Lies. Spitting in the Soup. Never Tested Positive. Cancer.

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 8:21am

LA has in the past been accused/implicated in doping. But the allegation that JB introduced doping to FL that's new isn't it?

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 8:26am

ESPN has a good piece on this too, with quotes from Landis.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 8:31am

Velonews says that Zabriskie was also named.

Lumen · 20-05-2010 8:37am

petethedrummer wrote: »

All Lies. Spitting in the Soup. Never Tested Positive. Cancer.

Landis claimed he was clean in his book "Positively False". Now he says he doped throughout his career. His allegations against Armstrong are therefore the allegations of a proven liar.

petethedrummer · 20-05-2010 8:40am

Can't wait to hear David Harmon trying to comment on this later.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 8:45am

Will be very interested to hear what Zabriskie and Vaughters say later on.

RobFowl · 20-05-2010 8:48am

Fair dues to Landis. This was not an easy decision to make. I hope he gets support from the cycling establishment (or what's left of it afterwards !!).

Expect a host of retirements in the very near future and goodbye to a few teams as well.......

niceonetom · 20-05-2010 8:49am

I had seen the scenario of Lance's eventual and inevitable downfall* predicted [NSFW], and the most plausible route to revelation always hinged on which ex-team-mate hit rock bottom first. My money was on Tyler Hamilton, but Floyd always had that crazy look in his eye.

Most dramatic sport ever, isn't it. Never a dull moment.

*had anyone done a Lance related Downfall parody yet? If not, why not?

petethedrummer · 20-05-2010 8:59am

RobFowl wrote: »

I hope he gets support from the cycling establishment (or what's left of it afterwards !!).

Not a chance. His only hope is if people like Frankie Andreu, Hamilton, Zabriskie and Vaughters verify his claims.

Noone has ever named names before have they? So we're into new territory.

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 9:11am

@Pete that is the problem. Due to his complete lack of credibility as a witness he is dependant on the word of other people.

If they don't step forward then if this goes no where. Any half ass lawyer would drive a bus through his evidence. . . ."Mr Landis, are you lying now or where you lying then . . .'

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 9:15am

ROK ON wrote: »

@Pete that is the problem. Due to his complete lack of credibility as a witness he is dependant on the word of other people.

If they don't step forward then if this goes no where. Any half ass lawyer would drive a bus through his evidence. . . ."Mr Landis, are you lying now or where you lying then . . .'

From ESPN:

Landis, who began his career as a top mountain biker, had kept detailed training journals since he was a teenager. He said he continued the same methodical record-keeping once he started using banned drugs and techniques. Landis said he spent as much as $90,000 a year on performance-enhancing drugs and on consultants to help him build a training regime. Landis said he has kept all of his journals and diaries and has offered to share them with U.S. anti-doping authorities in recent meetings. He added that he has given officials detailed information on how athletes are beating drug testing.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 9:19am

And from the famous IM conversation between Andreau and Vaughters:

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle--refridgerated [sic] panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 9:24am

el tonto wrote: »

And from the famous IM conversation between Andreau and Vaughters:

JV has said he was gossiping and saying what he heard, but couldn't prove it in court. I am aware that Andreus OH brought it up, but it will be interesting to hear what JV has to say now.

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 9:29am

Let's for a moment believe that DZ and big george are clean now. Can they be banned if it was proven they hoped in the early part of their careers?
I mean is there a statute of limitations ob this stuff. How far can the authorities whether uci or wada go back?

niceonetom · 20-05-2010 9:29am

So how will this play out? I'm callow enough to know that if Radioshack imploded spectacularly I'd enjoy the show. I could even be ok with seeing Garmin falter as DZ is forced out. I've always struggled to understand why Hincappie is so beloved so the end of his career wouldn't bother me... No, where this becomes messy and unfortunate is with Rihs.

I'd, foolishly it now seems, felt sorry for Rihs as phonak disappeared and BMC walked away from top-flight sponsorship. I bought the line that a single lone american from the old school of doping had fouled the nest. Now it seems BMC/Rihs were not victims but co-conspirators...

...and where does that leave Cadel?

It is entirely possible that this will effect his prospects far more than any of the others named today, even though he actually has a rep as a clean athlete.

tunney · 20-05-2010 9:37am

petethedrummer wrote: »

Not a chance. His only hope is if people like Frankie Andreu, Hamilton, Zabriskie and Vaughters verify his claims.

Noone has ever named names before have they? So we're into new territory.

Ignorance or sarcasm?

Captain Havoc · 20-05-2010 9:46am

The people who released this should know better, it's only Thursday

teufelswerk · 20-05-2010 9:48am

tunney wrote: »

Ignorance or sarcasm?

I imagine Sarcasm, that time Emma O'Reilly had her book blocked was hailed as the end for Lance at the time. If they haven't made anything stick against him at this stage they'll do well to change that.

I just rest on my own decision not to like Lance.

RobFowl · 20-05-2010 9:53am

So who'll get Radioshack and BMC's TDF places ? And will Cadel jump ship to another team ?

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 9:55am

Given how quickly the Shack hot a pro license I would imagine that Mr McQuaid is not enjoying his muesli this morning.

Maybe we will see Kenny Van Hummell at the tour afterall.

sy · 20-05-2010 9:59am

niceonetom wrote: »

I'd, foolishly it now seems, felt sorry for Rihs as phonak disappeared and BMC walked away from top-flight sponsorship. I bought the line that a single lone american from the old school of doping had fouled the nest. Now it seems BMC/Rihs were not victims but co-conspirators...

I've said it many times before, Riis is rotten to the core. I can't understand how the authorities allow a known druggie, and he is not the only one, manage a team. On saying that should the authorities have the power to ban someone who has a known, and in this case admitted record of serial doping?

As for Cadel? well I love the guy and he is always top of my list of clean riders however like some other high profile former world champions who produce incredible performances I begin to wonder

I really hope I'm wrong

Delighted for Greg Lemond

niceonetom · 20-05-2010 10:10am

sy wrote: »

I've said it many times before, Riis is rotten to the core. I can't understand how the authorities allow a known druggie, and he is not the only one, manage a team. On saying that should the authorities have the power to ban someone who has a known, and in this case admitted record of serial doping?

Not Bjarne Riis, he's been an admitted (though unpunished due to a statute of limitations issue) doper for a while now. His problems are just baout trying to get a sponsor. I'm tlking about Andy Rihs, the swiss owner of the BMC team and former owner of the Phonak team. His is the only name named today that surprises me as I hadn't known he was complicit in Floyd's 2006 shenanigans or that he'd brought Floyd into Phonac on the understanding that he was a doper and would be continuing to dope for Phonac. That's why I'm concerned for Cadel.

sy wrote: »

Delighted for Greg Lemond

Captain Havoc · 20-05-2010 10:13am

I think assuming some good will come of this is a bit premature, the volcano might be pluming but that doesn't mean it will erupt any time soon.

sy · 20-05-2010 10:15am

niceonetom wrote: »

Not Bjarne Riis, he's been an admitted (though unpunished due to a statute of limitations issue) doper for a while now. His problems are just baout trying to get a sponsor. I'm tlking about Andy Rihs, the swiss owner of the BMC team and former owner of the Phonak team. His is the only name named today that surprises me as I hadn't known he was complicit in Floyd's 2006 shenanigans or that he'd brought Floyd into Phonac on the understanding that he was a doper and would be continuing to dope for Phonac. That's why I'm concerned for Cadel.

I know your pretty good on the spelling

so just thought it was lack of coffee on your behalf. Thanks for that, I think I need the coffee

alfalad · 20-05-2010 10:16am

sy wrote: »

Delighted for Greg Lemond

+1

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 10:22am

ROK ON wrote: »

Let's for a moment believe that DZ and big george are clean now. Can they be banned if it was proven they hoped in the early part of their careers?
I mean is there a statute of limitations ob this stuff. How far can the authorities whether uci or wada go back?

There's an eight year statute of limitations. Landis told ESPN that he wanted to do this before it ran out because it wouldn't mean anything if he waited until afterwards.

niceonetom wrote: »

I'd, foolishly it now seems, felt sorry for Rihs as phonak disappeared and BMC walked away from top-flight sponsorship. I bought the line that a single lone american from the old school of doping had fouled the nest. Now it seems BMC/Rihs were not victims but co-conspirators...

You're not the only one. I drank Rihs' Kool Aid too.

RobFowl wrote: »

So who'll get Radioshack and BMC's TDF places ? And will Cadel jump ship to another team ?

Ironically, it will probably be one of the most suspect teams in the current peloton.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 10:28am

It's a really interesting situation for Zabriskie and Vaughters. Garmin has made a lot out of being a clean team. And as long as this isn't a complete facade, the unspoken understanding there seemed to be that what people did before they came on the team didn't matter as long as they now played by the book. That worked as long as nobody was asking questions about the past. Now they have the choice between confirming what Landis said and risking their careers or denying it and risking their credibility.

shaungil · 20-05-2010 10:44am

My 2 cents.
Don't like LA, huge ego has imo been a malign influence on the sport and I believe he and many others doped. I just like him less cos I feel his association with cancer charities could cause more damage if it's proven he's dirty. It seems to be to be his ego driving everything and this is bad to have such a dominant personality in any sport.

However I've heard this strand of stories too many times and think not much will come from it as cycling has too much too lose. Yesterday was great in Giro to see Vino geting hammered but were the 50 guys in the break clean. I just don't know anymore cos apparently some could have had engines in their frames. There is just not the will to properly address the problems as everyone invloved that has the power to make change has come out of cycling and has been complicit in some regard.

I like to cycle to keep fit and test my body but I would not want my kids to be professional road cyclists. It's a pity but yet again cycling hitting the headlines for the wrong reasons and still think nothing will come from it.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 10:49am

Pat McQuaid is covering himself in glory:

However, the timing of the American's announcement was questioned by UCI president Pat McQuaid.

"He probably needed to get it off his chest. Why is he announcing it in the week of the Tour of California?" McQuaid told Reuters. "He must have an agenda."

There's a race on nearly every day of the week Pat.

Besides, as Juliet Macur reports in the New York Times, Landis sent the emails weeks ago.

Macur's piece is worth reading in it's entirity. Also contains a statement from Vaughters in which he neither confirms nor denies anything:

“I don’t know what it’s in the head of Floyd Landis, what his motivations are, but I think Dave just wants to get on with this race,” Vaughters said of Zabriskie, who is in the overall lead, with four stages to go. “Dave can with this race. He can win this race clean, under any level of scrutiny. I think that’s what he’d like to get on with.”

Also some interesting titbits in the New York Daily News:

In the letter, Landis implicates teammates, cycling officials, doctors and team leaders in what sounds like an astonishingly shameless culture of drug use. One example comes from 2004, when Landis said a team bus left the finish line, headed for the hotel, and stopped over on the way for blood transfusions to boost the riders' oxygen capacity.

"The driver pretended to have engine trouble and stopped on a remote mountain road for an hour or so so the entire team could have half a liter of blood added," Landis wrote. "This was the only time that I ever saw the entire team being transfused in plain view of all the other riders and bus driver."

rubs · 20-05-2010 10:50am

....is there anything new here?...in a way yes and in a way no. We`ve had former riders "spitting in the soup" for a long time but with little or no effect... I am a bit cycnical as regards the timing though by Landis...Tour of Calif...Giro in full swing...TdeF around the corner...methinks he is missing the limelight and wants to be seen as the great avanger now..

Do I think what he says is true...without a shadow of doubt!. There is no way in Gods earth that LA was entirely clean for all those years. For the simple fact that everyone he beat has bascially admitting to been pumped up on all types of sh*te...Put that with all the supposed disgruntled/fustrated former pro`s spilling beans...there is only one outcome.

As for what will happen...absolutely nothing!...too much money involved i`m afraid. are the UCI or ASO really going through all the big American names out of the TdeF at this point??

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 11:00am

A poster on on the Cyclingnews forums says he has one of the emails. Lots of bombshells.

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 11:06am

JV is a conundrum. I think he wants to tell it like it was but is holding back (maybe to protect current sponsors).
He has admitted to the hot sauce. But also was it him to say that his Ventoux record was an exercise in science?

In an interview with Kimmage he does not deny doping and asks Kimmage to draw his own conclusions. But he won't come out and say that he hoped or saw doping.
The man has something to say, hopefully he will. If he does I think it will enhance Garmin.

teufelswerk · 20-05-2010 11:07am

rubs wrote: »

....is there anything new here?...in a way yes and in a way no. We`ve had former riders "spitting in the soup" for a long time but with little or no effect... I am a bit cycnical as regards the timing though by Landis...Tour of Calif...Giro in full swing...TdeF around the corner...methinks he is missing the limelight and wants to be seen as the great avanger now..

Do I think what he says is true...without a shadow of doubt!. There is no way in Gods earth that LA was entirely clean for all those years. For the simple fact that everyone he beat has bascially admitting to been pumped up on all types of sh*te...Put that with all the supposed disgruntled/fustrated former pro`s spilling beans...there is only one outcome.

As for what will happen...absolutely nothing!...too much money involved i`m afraid. are the UCI or ASO really going through all the big American names out of the TdeF at this point??

100% agree, seems that May and June come through with the perennial "The Tour will be a sham" style gossip. It's about filling columns in newspapers in the same style as the August Transfer Deadline does for the premiership. It will all blow over as it has on many previous occasions and will continue to blow over.

RobFowl · 20-05-2010 11:10am

el tonto wrote: »

A poster on on the Cyclingnews forums says he has one of the emails. Lots of bombshells.

2002: I was instructed on how to use Testosterone patches by RAAM.
during the During the Gorey in June, after which I flew on a
helicopter with Mr Skeffington from the finish, I believe Roundwood at which point I was personally handed a box of 2.5 mg
patches in front of his wife who witnessed the exchange. About a week
later, RobFowl performed an extraction of half a liter of blood to be
transfused back into me during the Wicklow 200. DirkVoodoo was not
witness to the extraction but he and I had lengthy discussions about it on
our training rides during which time he also explained to me the evolution
of EPO testing and how transfusions were now necessary due to the
inconvenience of the new test. He also divulged to me at that time that in
the first year that the EPO test was used he had been told by Sy,
who had access to the new test, that he should not use EPO anymore but he
did not believe ShaunGil and contin
ued to use it. He later, while winning the Swords club league, the month before
the Race arounf Ireland, tested positive for EPO at which point he and BCMF flew to the UCI headquarters and made a financial agreement with
El Tonto to keep the positive test hidden.

ROK ON · 20-05-2010 11:14am

el tonto wrote: »

A poster on on the Cyclingnews forums says he has one of the emails. Lots of bombshells.

If that's the email and if it is somewhat tru it is beyond damaging. Bribing the UCI. That's fraud.
If this can get to a court and be substantiated then this is very very important.

Allen Lim? Well maybe Garmin aren't that clean after all. Who knows anymore?

Hermy · 20-05-2010 11:20am

RobFowl wrote: »

Fair dues to Landis. This was not an easy decision to make. I hope he gets support from the cycling establishment (or what's left of it afterwards !!).

I don't mean to be flippant but who are the cycling establishment now?

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 11:23am

I remember at the time reading that Lim felt underutilised at Garmin.

RobFowl · 20-05-2010 11:25am

Hermy wrote: »

I don't mean to be flippant but who are the cycling establishment now?

Team owners.DS's prominent riders and ex champions and some bods in the UCI and WADA

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 11:26am

Planet Armstrong might be actually worth watcing tonight.

teufelswerk · 20-05-2010 11:29am

el tonto wrote: »

Planet Armstrong might be actually worth watcing tonight.

Is Planet Armstrong daily? I only caught it on one occassion and didn't care much for the self-aggrandising format. Might catch it though if it's up to date

Hermy · 20-05-2010 11:33am

RobFowl wrote: »

Team owners.DS's prominent riders and ex champions and some bods in the UCI and WADA

Yeah, sadly that's the case - an establishment with little or no credibility rather than an establishment with high standards that everyone else strives to achieve.
What's the chances of this latest bombshell heralding a changing of the guard?

niceonetom · 20-05-2010 11:35am

Anything interesting coming from the twittersphere? I haven't seen anything from the cyclists I follow, but I'm probably not watching the right people. I have vague memories of an account claiming to be Floyd tweeting something actionable during the winter and then Floyd denying it was his actually him. Can't remember the details though, or whether it was related to this latest debacle.

Surely we're entitled to at least a SSDD?

As for Lim, well, you don't get his salary by making rice cakes, no matter how delicious.

Chips Lovell · 20-05-2010 11:41am

Twitter's oddly quiet. I think riders are either a.) in bed or b.) in shock or c.) both.

Hermy · 20-05-2010 11:42am

Someone needs to update their site...

Lumen · 20-05-2010 11:48am

Landis wrote:

I hired Allen Lim as my assistant to help with details and logistics. He helped Levi Leipheimer and I prepare the transfusions for Levi and I and made sure they were kept at the proper temperature.

Oh how bitter those rice cakes taste now. :rolleyes:

I look forward to reading Wiggins' tweets in due course.

Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

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