More gender pay gap rubbish

Mad_maxx · 18-02-2019 5:46pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The gender pay gap is real, it just doesn't mean what most people think. There is a gap in what women get paid compared to men. The problem is it is because they work less hours and lower paying work. Equal pay for equal work is not an issue.

Same as there is a gap between what most Moldovans in Ireland earn and what most germans in Ireland earn

However, a Moldovan consultant will not get paid less than his German counterpart here

mvl · 18-02-2019 5:59pm

Alondra Helpless Dream wrote: »

The #1 reason why women earn less than men is that many women take time out of the workforce in their late 20s and 30s to have and raise children, and thus have significantly less work experience than their male peers once they reach their 40s.

I would add here if ppl don't ask, they won't get - but this doesn't have something to do with gender.

the_pen_turner · 18-02-2019 6:09pm

total rubbish.

if a company offers 2 jobs for the same role and 2 workers aply for it but have come through diferent career paths to get there. even if they have the same experience 100% across the board but one happened to work for an employer that paid slighly better.
then one applicant could be on 50k and the other 45k. no gender or other bias involved just luck.
the employer is offering 50k to both . the first person isnt enthusiastic but the second is so the second person accepts the job and the 5k 'raise' . the first person is going to negosiate and want more money or they will stay where they are so gets 55k.
where is the bias there. there isnt any

if this happens a few times on the career path then the diference can add up fast. it only came down to negotiation

Ray Palmer · 18-02-2019 6:09pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

However, a Moldovan consultant will not get paid less than his German counterpart here

Actually they probably will get paid less here as when they negotiate their pay they probably won't know the local market.
I work as a contractor and my boss accidentally sent out daily rates paid to all the contractors. My Indian colleagues were very annoyed to see I was paid 50% more than them. The thing was it wasn't because of race but because I negotiated my rate on joining with a built in increase on renewals.
One women claimed it was sexism because we started at the same time and had similar experience. The thing is I asked for more money or I wouldn't take the job she accepted what they initially offered and no increase later. I had been contracting longer so knew what to do.
Eventually they asked me to take a cut as it bothered others. As the information was not meant to be sent around I said just tell people I got a pay cut.
The women took a pay cut and the Indian people got a rate rise. When I met her a few years later I laughed how I never took a pay cut and I hoped she didn't either. She did and earned about €100 less a day than me for a year. She was really mad but it wasn't sexism it was poor negotiation skills.

doolox · 18-02-2019 6:21pm

Much as I have a certain regard for Mick Wallace or the Healy Reas, I do not foresee the day that they would be picked for a front-facing job such as TV presenter or such like.

Physical appearance counts nearly as much in men and how they are chosen for a particular job just as much as it is applied to women.

A shambling, awkward looking man with badly formed physical features will be rejected just as quickly and ruthlessly as is often reputed to happen to women.

Height also gives tall men an advantage in being chosen for leadership roles over their shorter and less athletically built colleagues.

Badly groomed or neglectful looking men will be rejected in favour of their neater and more sharply dressed peers.

It can no longer be claimed that women got a good promotion just on appearances alone. In most cases a good appearance is worked on and cultivated. In most modern cases, any physical defects can be rectified if the person wishes it so and is prepared to work hard at it and organise their lives to that end. This shows good organisational skills and a tidy, well organised mind behind all the glamour and demonstrates ambition, focus and drive in a person. It also demonstrates high self esteem and sound mental health when such beautifications and aesthetic improvements are done tastefully and with restraint, think Meghan Markel rather than Lady Gaga.

While different criteria apply to men the same basic body minding rules apply. Exercise, good and neat dress and grooming, healthy diet and habits to promote good complexion and healthy body size and weight. Much the same effort in terms of time apply to both genders.

thebaz · 18-02-2019 6:34pm

I agree everyone regardless of gender/age/race should be paid equally for doing the same job to the same quality - what I object to is the PC crusade driven by the Indo management - Dennis O'Brien no less, a pillar of modern virtue.

the_pen_turner · 18-02-2019 6:41pm

thebaz wrote: »

I agree everyone regardless of gender/age/race should be paid equally for doing the same job to the same quality - what I object to is the PC crusade driven by the Indo management - Dennis O'Brien no less, a pillar of modern virtue.

there are very few here disagreeing with that.
the only ones you see are sayig there is a pay gap based on gender. they want men and women paid the same even when the experience and skill is different

thebaz · 18-02-2019 6:46pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

the only ones you see are sayig there is a pay gap based on gender. they want men and women paid the same even when the experience and skill is different

Thats my point - just another example of lazy PC jouralism from the Indo - O'Brien fought a war to wrest control, and it has turned it into a complete rag , yet trying to portray how hip / liberal and right on they are . Does anyone actually buy the indo as in pay for it ?

mvl · 18-02-2019 7:19pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

She did and earned about €100 less a day than me for a year. She was really mad but it wasn't sexism it was poor negotiation skills.

yeah, that's exactly what I was suggesting above. there are plenty of industry examples like this.
question though: aren't these stats only including grads from institutions funded by HEA ? e.g. excluding the foreign grads? that might explain teachers being top of the pay league

storker · 18-02-2019 7:26pm

thebaz wrote: »

Thats my point - just another example of lazy PC jouralism from the Indo - O'Brien fought a war to wrest control, and it has turned it into a complete rag , yet trying to portray how hip / liberal and right on they are . Does anyone actually buy the indo as in pay for it ?

I read some of it online but I never buy it. I read some IT stuff too until the paywall demands to be fed.

Calhoun · 18-02-2019 9:04pm

professore wrote: »

Top story on independent.ie... Male graduates paid 4k more than women... With zero explanations.

Is there any possibility that more women study humanities than men... Fields that are not in demand in the jobs market... Or are companies and government bodies so sexist they go out of their way and risk huge fines and bad publicity to pay women less? Hmmmm...

Who is driving this narrative?

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/teachers-top-the-pay-league-for-new-graduates-but-gender-pay-gap-remains-37825469.html

As an aside, these poor teachers earn more out of college than ANY OTHER TYPE OF GRADUATE!!!!! And they will be out on strike again looking for more since the nurses already got what they want. Crazy.

The contrast in comparison to lastweek when a study on college dropouts showed that 10% more men dropped out than women, the articles written about it quickly explained why that was the case.

Mad_maxx · 18-02-2019 9:41pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Actually they probably will get paid less here as when they negotiate their pay they probably won't know the local market.
I work as a contractor and my boss accidentally sent out daily rates paid to all the contractors. My Indian colleagues were very annoyed to see I was paid 50% more than them. The thing was it wasn't because of race but because I negotiated my rate on joining with a built in increase on renewals.
One women claimed it was sexism because we started at the same time and had similar experience. The thing is I asked for more money or I wouldn't take the job she accepted what they initially offered and no increase later. I had been contracting longer so knew what to do.
Eventually they asked me to take a cut as it bothered others. As the information was not meant to be sent around I said just tell people I got a pay cut.
The women took a pay cut and the Indian people got a rate rise. When I met her a few years later I laughed how I never took a pay cut and I hoped she didn't either. She did and earned about €100 less a day than me for a year. She was really mad but it wasn't sexism it was poor negotiation skills.

Doubt hse employees individually negotiate

professore · 19-02-2019 9:17am

Hedgelayer wrote: »

Never...

Women chosen for their looks and not brains.

That would be very unprofessional.

You don't need brains to read the news.

professore · 19-02-2019 9:32am

The old argument is if women are really paid less and therefore cheaper, then just employ women and save a fortune. It seems RTE and Channel 4 news have done this.

Maybe women in the private sector don't understand that you are paid what you ask for, not what you are worth? If an employer was truly sexist they wouldn't employ women at all. Best situation for an employer is an employee that works like a dog, never leaves and never asks for a raise. Loyalty is actively punished. Why should an employer pay more than they have to? That's terrible business. More women than men are like this. And female business owners understand this every bit as well as male business owners.

The friends I have who earn the most have changed jobs several times. And moved countries. They both work very long hours. They both are often away days or weeks at a time on business. If you work part time or 9-5 or want to be home with your kids you can't expect to earn the same as them. And women in their roles earn the same and work just as hard. Most have no kids or a full time nanny.

Watched C4 news recently and it struck me that they have no men at all. I think you would have to go back a LONG time to find a similar situation with a single gender news channel.

professore · 19-02-2019 9:35am

Calhoun wrote: »

The contrast in comparison to lastweek when a study on college dropouts showed that 10% more men dropped out than women, the articles written about it quickly explained why that was the case.

And what was the conclusion?

I would guess more men did STEM, particularly IT "because they like gaming" and think IT is like that LOL and these courses need both a massive interest and aptitude in mathematics to pass.

Ri_Nollaig · 19-02-2019 9:56am

professore wrote: »

I would guess more men did STEM, particularly IT "because they like gaming" and think IT is like that LOL and these courses need both a massive interest and aptitude in mathematics to pass.

Can't lie, I did Computer Science because I loved gaming!

But you are right, while there was a massive difference in the ratio of M:F in the class, I think it was about 80:10 [of which about 4 from that 10 reached graduation]. There was a lot of lads who clearly know/had interest in computers and were good but had no idea what the course was really about, they were gone before Christmas.

uptherebels · 19-02-2019 12:33pm

professore wrote: »

And what was the conclusion?

I would guess more men did STEM, particularly IT "because they like gaming" and think IT is like that LOL and these courses need both a massive interest and aptitude in mathematics to pass.

Well in my mech eng course, out of 50+ students there is a grand total of zero females.

professore · 19-02-2019 5:03pm

uptherebels wrote: »

Well in my mech eng course, out of 50+ students there is a grand total of zero females.

Misogynists !!!

mvl · 19-02-2019 8:45pm

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Can't lie, I did Computer Science because I loved gaming!

And I loved Maths ! While this was 20 years ago, there were aprox 30% ladies in my year graduating Computer Science; and I think the stats in my home country are improving.
Wonder is this a "new" trend in here, women preferring not to do STEM ?
- Cause I do look around in my workplace, we're probably around 25% women, but half of them would be graduates from foreign universities, like me.

Calhoun · 19-02-2019 9:27pm

professore wrote: »

And what was the conclusion?

I would guess more men did STEM, particularly IT "because they like gaming" and think IT is like that LOL and these courses need both a massive interest and aptitude in mathematics to pass.

Exactly it and it makes allot of sense. Its probably also the reason why male graduates are earning a bit more because they are going for STEM.

However the article title would make it seem something more sinister is a foot.

Calhoun · 19-02-2019 9:27pm

professore wrote: »

And what was the conclusion?

I would guess more men did STEM, particularly IT "because they like gaming" and think IT is like that LOL and these courses need both a massive interest and aptitude in mathematics to pass.

Exactly it and it makes allot of sense. Its probably also the reason why male graduates are earning a bit more because they are going for STEM.

However the article title would make it seem something more sinister is a foot.

Cina · 19-02-2019 9:33pm

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Can't lie, I did Computer Science because I loved gaming!

But you are right, while there was a massive difference in the ratio of M:F in the class, I think it was about 80:10 [of which about 4 from that 10 reached graduation]. There was a lot of lads who clearly know/had interest in computers and were good but had no idea what the course was really about, they were gone before Christmas.

80:10? You must be rubbish at your job

Diceicle · 26-02-2019 10:55pm

This guy is a champ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pdnkbs4l_g

mvl · 12-03-2019 9:51pm

Thought of this thread when reading this article - hence posting here.
So when looking at percentages for women scientists/engineers across EU countries - actually Ireland is doing well, as it has almost 50%.
https://bigthink.com/politics-current-affairs/gender-equality-in-stem-is-possible-these-countries-prove-it-2631143807
Now I assume an important number of these scientists/engineers are imported (meaning not grads from local universities, hence not included in article from OP).
But also worth noting the observation in the second article (link here), that majority of female scientists (globally) seem to work for public/academic sector, while majority of men work in private sector (hence having more competitive wages ?!?). Interesting ...

mikeym · 12-03-2019 10:05pm

Maybe the contracts are different like the public service.

Maybe men do more overtime than women.

In every low paid job I worked Men and Women got paid the same.

More gender pay gap rubbish

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