Fields of lush green grass and nothing else.

Gawddawggonnit · 17-02-2019 8:19am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Theres legitimate questions to be asked about the basis of the likes "Origin Green" - if its not based on solid data and fact, then it will end badly and do permanent damage to brand Ireland. As it is data from the likes of the EPA etc. which was widely reported last summer does not tally with that element of Bord Bia's marketing. Pulling the wool over consumers eyes is not a good marketing strategy in the long run. New Zealand went down a similar route with labels for this, that and the other but ended up with the "Dirty Dairy" tag when the reality of the industry was exposed!!

+1.

screamer · 17-02-2019 8:43am

It’s very simple really, farms that are not viable need to stop farming, and return to natural habitat. If you need subsidies to keep your business going, then it’s time to draw a line under it. Pointless to be spending more on keeping a farm afloat than it earns back, stupid even. That goes for any business.

Yes prices will rise, but then demand will also fall, so intensity wouldn’t be needed.
I do agree intensive farming does irradiate habitat for wild animals, course it does.

Panch18 · 17-02-2019 8:57am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Theres legitimate questions to be asked about the basis of the likes "Origin Green" - if its not based on solid data and fact, then it will end badly and do permanent damage to brand Ireland. As it is data from the likes of the EPA etc. which was widely reported last summer does not tally with that element of Bord Bia's marketing. Pulling the wool over consumers eyes is not a good marketing strategy in the long run. New Zealand went down a similar route with labels for this, that and the other but ended up with the "Dirty Dairy" tag when the reality of the industry was exposed!!

A bit of an ignorant post really I believe birdnuts

Take a look around at the shape some other countries are in and how they produce food and it would make you glad your from ireland

wrangler · 17-02-2019 9:04am

Birdnuts wrote: »

Theres legitimate questions to be asked about the basis of the likes "Origin Green" - if its not based on solid data and fact, then it will end badly and do permanent damage to brand Ireland. As it is data from the likes of the EPA etc. which was widely reported last summer does not tally with that element of Bord Bia's marketing. Pulling the wool over consumers eyes is not a good marketing strategy in the long run. New Zealand went down a similar route with labels for this, that and the other but ended up with the "Dirty Dairy" tag when the reality of the industry was exposed!!

When bord bia were bringing clients here I'd never need any more notice than to ensure I was here, they've seen my sheep lambing indoors in the sheep hotel as one crowd called it, they've seen them out on the green grass, all sheep tagged, Hedges I've sowed, If other farmers are too lazy to be like that they should be penalised alright, but you see the criticism here when IFA wouldn't defend fraudulent claims.
As far as I'm concerned there's enough habitats on my farm, plenty of big ditches well breasted every year as well as new hedges for sheltering newborn lambs, wildlife can adapt or get out

gozunda · 17-02-2019 9:34am

screamer wrote: »

It’s very simple really, farms that are not viable need to stop farming, and return to natural habitat. If you need subsidies to keep your business going, then it’s time to draw a line under it. Pointless to be spending more on keeping a farm afloat than it earns back, stupid even. That goes for any business. Yes prices will rise, but then demand will also fall, so intensity wouldn’t be needed.
I do agree intensive farming does irradiate habitat for wild animals, course it does.

No screamer. It's not that simple really. There are plenty of farmers who farm and work off farm. Many of these smaller farms are viable as much as someone working in any other sector. Many large intensive farms are profitable. And the old bugbear about subsidies. Subsidies are provided to many different sectors for different reasons. Roads are subsidised. Subsidies are provided for forestry. Subsidies are provided for environmental improvements and for water quality etc. A lot of employment is subsidised by the government. So what's your point? That you just dont like farmers recieving these? Why is that?

'Irradiate' what? - I kinda get the idea you're not sure what you're talking about tbhm

yosemitesam1 · 17-02-2019 9:50am

Panch18 wrote: »

A bit of an ignorant post really I believe birdnuts

Take a look around at the shape some other countries are in and how they produce food and it would make you glad your from ireland

We're miles behind the best out there from an environmental/biodiversity POV. At best we're average.

grassroot1 · 17-02-2019 10:23am

wrangler wrote:

That's bull**** and you know it Larger farmers would take it all if it wasn't capped , is that what you want. I'm no genius and I've never had a subsidy penalty, can't be that hard, BPM WILL SORT ALL FOR YOU.......AS IF

Jaysus Wrangler the BPM is getting between you and your sleep.

wrangler · 17-02-2019 10:27am

Capercaillie wrote: »

GLAS was also manipulated by IFA so farmers with pathetic examples of wildlife habitat could claim payments. GLAS should have been results based, reward the farmer with the best habitats/greatest number of threatened species. GLAS is a joke and pathetically continually cited by groups such as Origin Green (Origin Fraud)/IFA as some great agri scheme..

When I was in IFA I was always promoting good farming practise, not subsidising lazy farmers to neglect their land, you must be thinking of a different farm organisation.....is there a lazy farmers association.
Glas gives a good balance on well run farms, again it's not compulsory, if you don't like it you can ...off

Capercaillie · 17-02-2019 10:49am

wrangler wrote: »

When I was in IFA I was always promoting good farming practise, not subsidising lazy farmers to neglect their land, you must be thinking of a different farm organisation.....is there a lazy farmers association.
Glas gives a good balance on well run farms, again it's not compulsory, if you don't like it you can ...off

I'm a part time farmer and don't neglect my farm and put a huge amount of effort in creating/maintaining habitats on it. True though you would probably see it as worthless and your cronies in IFA see it likewise....

wrangler · 17-02-2019 10:52am

grassroot1 wrote: »

Jaysus Wrangler the BPM is getting between you and your sleep.

It'd be alright if they weren't trying to undermine the whole agriculture industry with their whinge fests, you could either support them or not, but any farmer that respects what we produce can't ignore them now,
They've done nothing only harm so far, A lot of farmers around the country entertained foreign buyers for Bord Bia over the years and Bord Bia do promotions all aver europe to build relationships, and people who probably have very little to do with farming have been given a platform to tear down the industry on social media. Bord bia don't set the prices but posts on social media show how ignorant the posters are of that fact.
I said months ago that farmers need representation and didn't care what organisation represented us, but I do now, also I recommended that BPM speak To ICSA as they had an infrastructure in place, offices etc. Lucky for ICSA they didn't
I'm sure small processors are absolutely jumping to do business with them,
sure why not, it's risk free processing after all, the farmer'll be taking the risk.
Do you think the supermarkets are ignoring accusations, they now have the best ammo ever to pull down prices

wrangler · 17-02-2019 11:01am

Capercaillie wrote: »

I'm a part time farmer and don't neglect my farm and put a huge amount of effort in creating/maintaining habitats on it. True though you would probably see it as worthless and your cronies in IFA see it likewise....

That's your own choice and I'm sure that plenty of my cronies maintain habitats, but they'd know that if the land isn't in GAC they shouldn't be claiming on it.
Some farmers don't read the Terms and Condition and some are just chancers
Like The QA and BPS, it's the best paying work on the farm......if you do it right

Buford T. Justice XIX · 17-02-2019 11:33am

screamer wrote: »

It’s very simple really, farms that are not viable need to stop farming, and return to natural habitat. If you need subsidies to keep your business going, then it’s time to draw a line under it. Pointless to be spending more on keeping a farm afloat than it earns back, stupid even. That goes for any business.

Yes prices will rise, but then demand will also fall, so intensity wouldn’t be needed.
I do agree intensive farming does irradiate habitat for wild animals, course it does.

As a lecturer once said to us, lazy analysis leads to lazy conclusions.

You do realise that no sector of the Irish economy isn't subsidised, don't you? At least Agricultural subsidies are clear and transparent, unlike for example your own subsidies. Paternity/maternity leave, paternity/maternity pay, sick days, sick pay, holidays, holiday pay, 38 hour week, minimum pay, redundancy pay etc etc etc etc etc etc.

We get paid world market prices for our goods and the 'subsidies' we receive have duties attached to them that have to be reached before that money is paid. You receive a subsidy every day with zero obligation attached and your pay is an order of magnitude greater than what's available to any farmer. World market wages are probably 1/3, at best, of what you currently receive with no benefits or rights attached to that wage.

There are thousands of people across the world who would do your job and could do your job for a fraction of the wages you demand but they are prevented from taking up that job because of the subsidies requiring a permit to be applied for to take up that job, thus subsidising you again, but agricultural goods are traded freely into and out of the EU once certain basic minimum phytosanitary conditions are met. I will enjoy when free movement for workers arrives...

TL;DR? It's a dead and lazy argument to accuse farmers of being highly subsidised when you yourself are attracting a far higher subsidy with no responsibilities due for that.

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 2:33pm

gozunda wrote: »

Birdnuts you never appear to have anything positive ever about agriculture here tbh. I see plenty of neighbours doing work for conservation, wildlife and ecology and farming as well. Knocking everyone all the time gets a bit tiresome tbh. I know well what group of extremists use the 'dirty dairy' for their agenda. Their a dirty shower of cnuts themselves.

Far from it - its the efforts of individual farmers that is maintaining what natural heritage is out there. My problem is the system that works against such people via the approach of Teagasc, DAFM and certain farming organisations.

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 2:36pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're miles behind the best out there from an environmental/biodiversity POV. At best we're average.

We have one of the lowest acreage of Organic in the EU - not saying that organic is the be all and end all, put it certainly puts to bed the idea that Ireland is some sort of "green" oasis on such matters

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 2:38pm

wrangler wrote: »

When I was in IFA I was always promoting good farming practise, not subsidising lazy farmers to neglect their land, you must be thinking of a different farm organisation.....is there a lazy farmers association.
Glas gives a good balance on well run farms, again it's not compulsory, if you don't like it you can ...off

Insulting farmers who incorporate some habitat into their farm does yourself and other IFA types no good and is a pretty primitive view of where farming needs to go in the future

gozunda · 17-02-2019 2:47pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

We have one of the lowest acreage of Organic in the EU - not saying that organic is the be all and end all, put it certainly puts to bed the idea that Ireland is some sort of "green" oasis on such matters

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

wrangler · 17-02-2019 2:48pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Insulting farmers who incorporate some habitat into their farm does yourself and other IFA types no good and is a pretty primitive view of where farming needs to go in the future

you're fairly naive if you think that all farmers penalised for neglected land had anything to do with wildlife

_Brian · 17-02-2019 3:01pm

wrangler wrote: »

you're fairly naive if you think that all farmers penalised for neglected land had anything to do with wildlife

But the resultant biodiversity on this land is the same, it cares not the intention of how it was created n

yosemitesam1 · 17-02-2019 3:21pm

gozunda wrote: »

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

We're being told false claims of how sustainable and environmentally friendly Irish agriculture is very regularly. Everywhere has problems but at least we're not getting bombarded by other countries telling us how great they are.

Conservation ag is growing rapidly in Europe as well as loads of wonderful examples of sustainable farming like in the alps.
What's happening here, we tell everyone we're amazing...

gozunda · 17-02-2019 3:28pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're being told false claims of how sustainable and environmentally friendly Irish agriculture is very regularly. Everywhere has problems but at least we're not getting bombarded by other countries telling us how great they are.

Conservation ag is growing rapidly in Europe as well as loads of wonderful examples of sustainable farming like in the alps.
What's happening here, we tell everyone we're amazing...

What false claims about sustainability? if we dont look to our own and just keep beating ourselves up we get nowhere tbh. Whatever about some may claim about conservation in Europe - much of farmland there is vast open acerages with not as much as a bush to be seen for miles. Yeah there are marginal areas like the Alps but imo they are the exception imo.

Forget what others might or might be claiming abroad - I dont read their news tbh. I can tell you that what I've seen of European agriculture bears little kinship with diversity or wildlife or conservation compared to what we have here.

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 3:44pm

gozunda wrote: »

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

I've travelled a bit too lad and I don't dispute that Ireland is in better shape then some other parts of the EU. Having said that I have traveled to Eastern Europe and Turkey which still have many farmland species that have gone here and have farmland habitats that are in much better shape. We can always compare ourselves to the worst examples to make ourselves feel better, but its not a basis for a credible "Green" marketing scheme that claims we are head and shoulders above anywhere else

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 3:48pm

wrangler wrote: »

you're fairly naive if you think that all farmers penalised for neglected land had anything to do with wildlife

I'm aware of that - but alot of well intentioned people are being penalized too. The fact that such an approach by DAFM is contrary to various EU Directives on Water, Habitats etc. which the CAP is meant to be cross-complient with is something that the authorities here appear to unaware of or are simply ignoring. Either its a situation that needs fixing and fixing fast!!

jaymla627 · 17-02-2019 3:58pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm aware of that - but alot of well intentioned people are being penalized too. The fact that such an approach by DAFM is contrary to various EU Directives on Water, Habitats etc. which the CAP is meant to be cross-complient with is something that the authorities here appear to unaware of or are simply ignoring. Either its a situation that needs fixing and fixing fast!!

We had 8 acres of mature woodland habitat here that we where paid for in Reps 4, once we finished up the 5 years, noting was paid out on it under the bps, ended up clear-felling most of it over the years and will finally have it reclaimed to grassland this year, but it was a hive of wildlife activity as a habitat with foxes/squirrels etc

_Brian · 17-02-2019 4:03pm

May well be that all this bickering and opinions are mute in the end.

Brexit has the potential to end beef intensive beef farming in many areas, particularly those of us suffering marginal ground and extended wintering periods.

There is nothing to fill the gap bar environmental schemes or forestry. These areas aren’t suitable for dairy expansion and farm consolidation.

It will be important though that the correct schemes are focused to avoid sika spruce plantations further damaging our biodiversity.

gozunda · 17-02-2019 4:06pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

I've travelled a bit too lad and I don't dispute that Ireland is in better shape then some other parts of the EU. Having said that I have traveled to Eastern Europe and Turkey which still have many farmland species that have gone here and have farmland habitats that are in much better shape. We can always compare ourselves to the worst examples to make ourselves feel better, but its not a basis for a credible "Green" marketing scheme that claims we are head and shoulders above anywhere else

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

yosemitesam1 · 17-02-2019 4:34pm

gozunda wrote: »

What false claims about sustainability? if we dont look to our own and just keep beating ourselves up we get nowhere tbh. Whatever about some may claim about conservation in Europe - much of farmland there is vast open acerages with not as much as a bush to be seen for miles. Yeah there are marginal areas like the Alps but imo they are the exception imo.

Forget what others might or might be claiming abroad - I dont read their news tbh. I can tell you that what I've seen of European agriculture bears little kinship with diversity or wildlife or conservation compared to what we have here.

We're no more sustainable than the majority of EU agriculture.
Our GHG emissions are average when you take into account soil carbon losses (which are accounted for in intensive indoor systems).
Our soils are slowly being degraded from overuse of fertilizer and total disregard for the soil biology that must be respected to ensure long-term soil quality.

Our biodiversity continues to decline. Wild bees are declining here faster than the EU average. But yet bord via can come out and say that origin green is striving to make improvements in this area. How? Where are the rules around ditch management etc. They don't want anything solid which is grand, it's making it sound like they are doing serious work really annoys people.

(in areas such as minimising greenhouse gas emissions, conservation of water, good soil management, improving biodiversity, enhancing social and economic performance)

Not many of those boxes are ticked.

Europe is a diverse place and on the whole we're not any better than them, so while we're currently going in the wrong direction with things there's no reason to be patting ourselves on the back telling ourselves we're great because it doesn't help us in the long-term.

Conservation ag on the increase isn't a news story to sell to the public, it's being adopted by farmers who care about the real sustainability of their farms and are making changes. The majority of these wouldn't be noticeable from the motorway

Say my name · 17-02-2019 5:06pm

Here's a group of farmers who decided not to whinge about things on boards but decided to join forces and apply for EU funding and received assistance from Bord Bia, Glanbia, Kepak and Birdwatch Ireland.

https://www.thebrideproject.ie/

Panch18 · 17-02-2019 5:31pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

We have one of the lowest acreage of Organic in the EU - not saying that organic is the be all and end all, put it certainly puts to bed the idea that Ireland is some sort of "green" oasis on such matters

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Panch18 · 17-02-2019 5:34pm

gozunda wrote: »

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

Well said gozunda, I find it amazing really.

gozunda · 17-02-2019 5:36pm

You said

yosemitesam1 wrote:

We're being told false claims of how sustainable

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're no more sustainable than the majority of EU agriculture...

That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

Panch18 · 17-02-2019 5:36pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're being told false claims of how sustainable and environmentally friendly Irish agriculture is very regularly. Everywhere has problems but at least we're not getting bombarded by other countries telling us how great they are.

Conservation ag is growing rapidly in Europe as well as loads of wonderful examples of sustainable farming like in the alps.
What's happening here, we tell everyone we're amazing...

The Alps??? Are you serious

They are a huge mountain range. How can you compare them to rich productive farmland in Ireland?

yosemitesam1 · 17-02-2019 6:31pm

gozunda wrote: »

You said

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..

That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

minimising greenhouse gas emissions,
conservation of water,
good soil management,
improving biodiversity,
enhancing social and economic performance,
And as part of origin green bord via is striving to make improvements to our bee population (by doing nothing)

None of those boxes are being ticked

Gawddawggonnit · 17-02-2019 6:32pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/environmental-groups-urge-robust-approach-on-water-pollution-1.3205288

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715?mode=amp

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2018/12/03/France-tops-Food-Sustainability-Index

Mooooo · 17-02-2019 6:49pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/environmental-groups-urge-robust-approach-on-water-pollution-1.3205288

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715?mode=amp

https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2018/12/03/France-tops-Food-Sustainability-Index

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Capercaillie · 17-02-2019 7:04pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

You perhaps need to visit an average dairy farm and then visit a farm that manages sympathetically for wildlife. The difference is huge.

Capercaillie · 17-02-2019 7:20pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Not just farming that has a problem, incompetent County Councils, monoculture of Sitka spruce being clearfell, bogs being strip mined....

Say my name · 17-02-2019 7:26pm

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

Capercaillie · 17-02-2019 7:44pm

Say my name wrote: »

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

I'm not a holy warrior as I'm not religious

gozunda · 17-02-2019 7:57pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

minimising greenhouse gas emissions,
conservation of water,
good soil management,
improving biodiversity,
enhancing social and economic performance,
And as part of origin green bord via is striving to make improvements to our bee population (by doing nothing)
None of those boxes are being ticked

Tbh I dont care care about boxes being ticked. What false claims about sustainability? Whose claiming them and where?

What Bord Bia is striving to do is also irrelevant unless are they also making false claims about 'sustainability'?

I get it we have been set international environmental standards by others such as in the Kyota protocol etc but who is making false claims about sustainability?

gozunda · 17-02-2019 8:02pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

You perhaps need to visit an average dairy farm and then visit a farm that manages sympathetically for wildlife. The difference is huge.

I see what you doing there lol. Are the birds alighting on each others posts :pac:

Your point is? Btw as to your suggestion- have thanks. And yes there would be some differences but imo they are huge variations. We still have a huge diversity of farming operations even within relatively small areas. But by way of real comparison -
try going to visit one of the huge mono crop enterprises somewhere in France for example and you will see some really huge differences. They make the average Irish dairy farm look like a nature reserve.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 17-02-2019 8:33pm

Panch18 wrote: »

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Between a third and a quarter of organic beef and lamb is sold as conventional beef and lamb. So the margins claimed for organic produce in those sectors need to be taken with a (large) pinch of salt.

And, tbh, it's even worse than those figures show. Those organic figures don't include cows or ewes which are killed as conventional stock as it's a one-way open loop where organic stock can be killed as normal. If organic was a closed-loop where organic stock could only be killed as organic and supply the organic sector only, the price of organic meat would be the same or less than the current conventional price, with a higher cost base.

It can easily be argued that conventional feeding is actually subsidising organic feeding.

Lano Lynn · 17-02-2019 9:23pm

wrangler wrote: »

The EU did an audit and found thousands of claimed acres not eligible, roads, sites not taken out, even one farmer claiming for a lake, Northern Ireland applied an across the board penalty, however our department only penalised the messsers.
What choice had they, They had to stop overclaiming

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ireland-to-be-fined-63m-for-false-farm-payment-claims-355803.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-15631617

I do not consider myself a messer.
The good agricultural and ENVIRONMENTAL condition GAEC rules were used to keep inspectors in 'jobs' and has led to loss of countless pockets of biodiversity if all the areas of 'overclaimed' gorse rushes ponds rough grazing etc that were subsequently bulldozed were in one block there would have been even uproar from environmentalists than the gorse fires attracted.

I took the penalties and delays in payment on a couple of percent of my holding so I could keep some ponds and water meadow and a grove of trees (that provide shade for my rams in the summer) instead of being penalised I should have been paid even more than I was for growing bird cover so I reckon 1000 an ha instead of a penalty and demonised as a fraudulent messer:mad:

Lano Lynn · 17-02-2019 9:41pm

wrangler wrote: »

When bord bia were bringing clients here I'd never need any more notice than to ensure I was here, they've seen my sheep lambing indoors in the sheep hotel as one crowd called it, they've seen them out on the green grass, all sheep tagged, Hedges I've sowed, If other farmers are too lazy to be like that they should be penalised alright, but you see the criticism here when IFA wouldn't defend fraudulent claims.
As far as I'm concerned there's enough habitats on my farm, plenty of big ditches well breasted every year as well as new hedges for sheltering newborn lambs, wildlife can adapt or get out

please have this printed on your board of health and safety signs,
in big green letters and show it to your next group of visitors .

some wildlife does not 'adapt' that easy or fast and when they are gone they are gone.

Waffletraktor · 17-02-2019 10:03pm

gozunda wrote: »

You said

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..

That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

About the only thing sustainable in Ireland is the rain means you don't need fudge loads of irrigation schemes on top of the hydro carbon rich input system required to do any farming there. :pac:

Biodiversity is a great aim but it doesn't pay the bills for the majority although some can eek out a nice diversification business. The realities of living in a high cost western country means producing most of the produce for commodity prices leaves too little income for farms to have a viable future and those that do less able to afford non performing ground.
Don't see much changing until the next time people put a value on Tesco having 10 types of ready to eat lettuce available 12 months of the year rather than it just being a given right.

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 10:48pm

gozunda wrote: »

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

Did I say that?? - NO!!. I'm simply pointing out we are not an island of virtue above all others eitheir. France is a big country too and if you go to regions like the Dordogne you will get plenty of traditional wildlife friendly farms there and all

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 10:51pm

Panch18 wrote: »

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Not so sure about that - a family member who works in head office for LIDL says they can't keep enough organic milk on the shelves. We don't even produce any organic butter in this country. Just cos one element may be over subsribed(folk are eating less beef anyway whether we like it or not) doesn't mean there isn't oppurtunities in the fastest growing sector in EU agriculture

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 10:53pm

Mooooo wrote: »

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Alot of intensive pig and poultry farms though. Forestry is an issue, not least the practices of Coillte

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 10:57pm

Say my name wrote: »

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

Its does puzzle me why so many intensive dairy farms have there hedges cut to ribbons and knee height to a dwarf. You would think stock would benefit from the shelter a decent sized hedge provides during heatwaves, windstorms, driving rain etc. Another simple measure would have a fenced set-back from all water courses of 1 to 2 meters. Advantages would include a substantial reduction in run-off, better water quality, valuable wild bird corridor etc. This is where the likes of Bord Bia need to push their "origin green" agenda

gozunda · 17-02-2019 11:12pm

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its does puzzle me why so many intensive dairy farms have there hedges cut to ribbons and knee height to a dwarf. You would think stock would benefit from the shelter a decent sized hedge provides during heatwaves, windstorms, driving rain etc. Another simple measure would have a fenced set-back from all water courses of 1 to 2 meters. Advantages would include a substantial reduction in run-off, better water quality, valuable wild bird corridor etc. This is where the likes of Bord Bia need to push their "origin green" agenda

Must be your locality tbh I can count several local dairy farms locally which do not have hedges "cut to ribbons or knee height to a dwarf". In fact I cant think of any tbh. Reckon you may be generalising a little bit much there. Have you sent your suggestions into Bord Bia yet?

Meanwhile back in the real world

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/107500/1/#post109448187

Birdnuts · 17-02-2019 11:37pm

Waffletraktor wrote: »

About the only thing sustainable in Ireland is the rain means you don't need fudge loads of irrigation schemes on top of the hydro carbon rich input system required to do any farming there. :pac:

Biodiversity is a great aim but it doesn't pay the bills for the majority although some can eek out a nice diversification business. The realities of living in a high cost western country means producing most of the produce for commodity prices leaves too little income for farms to have a viable future and those that do less able to afford non performing ground.
Don't see much changing until the next time people put a value on Tesco having 10 types of ready to eat lettuce available 12 months of the year rather than it just being a given right.

It raises the question though - how viable are large intensive producers in reality?? We already know that 80% of CAP money goes to just 20% of producers, and they aint the ones with nice hedges and corncrakes knockin about the place. Its the same story in the US that has just a 5th of the farmers the EU has yet has a farm budget over 50% the size of the EU's with the vast majority of that money going to vast factory farms

Does any of that make sense in an era of embedded commidity price weakness, huge amounts of food waste, the growing obesity epidemic around the world etc.??

Fields of lush green grass and nothing else.

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