Fields of lush green grass and nothing else.

Birdnuts

gozunda wrote: »

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

I've travelled a bit too lad and I don't dispute that Ireland is in better shape then some other parts of the EU. Having said that I have traveled to Eastern Europe and Turkey which still have many farmland species that have gone here and have farmland habitats that are in much better shape. We can always compare ourselves to the worst examples to make ourselves feel better, but its not a basis for a credible "Green" marketing scheme that claims we are head and shoulders above anywhere else

Birdnuts

wrangler wrote: »

you're fairly naive if you think that all farmers penalised for neglected land had anything to do with wildlife

I'm aware of that - but alot of well intentioned people are being penalized too. The fact that such an approach by DAFM is contrary to various EU Directives on Water, Habitats etc. which the CAP is meant to be cross-complient with is something that the authorities here appear to unaware of or are simply ignoring. Either its a situation that needs fixing and fixing fast!!

jaymla627

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm aware of that - but alot of well intentioned people are being penalized too. The fact that such an approach by DAFM is contrary to various EU Directives on Water, Habitats etc. which the CAP is meant to be cross-complient with is something that the authorities here appear to unaware of or are simply ignoring. Either its a situation that needs fixing and fixing fast!!

We had 8 acres of mature woodland habitat here that we where paid for in Reps 4, once we finished up the 5 years, noting was paid out on it under the bps, ended up clear-felling most of it over the years and will finally have it reclaimed to grassland this year, but it was a hive of wildlife activity as a habitat with foxes/squirrels etc

_Brian

May well be that all this bickering and opinions are mute in the end.

Brexit has the potential to end beef intensive beef farming in many areas, particularly those of us suffering marginal ground and extended wintering periods.

There is nothing to fill the gap bar environmental schemes or forestry. These areas aren’t suitable for dairy expansion and farm consolidation.

It will be important though that the correct schemes are focused to avoid sika spruce plantations further damaging our biodiversity.

gozunda

Birdnuts wrote: »

I've travelled a bit too lad and I don't dispute that Ireland is in better shape then some other parts of the EU. Having said that I have traveled to Eastern Europe and Turkey which still have many farmland species that have gone here and have farmland habitats that are in much better shape. We can always compare ourselves to the worst examples to make ourselves feel better, but its not a basis for a credible "Green" marketing scheme that claims we are head and shoulders above anywhere else

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

yosemitesam1

gozunda wrote: »

What false claims about sustainability? if we dont look to our own and just keep beating ourselves up we get nowhere tbh. Whatever about some may claim about conservation in Europe - much of farmland there is vast open acerages with not as much as a bush to be seen for miles. Yeah there are marginal areas like the Alps but imo they are the exception imo.

Forget what others might or might be claiming abroad - I dont read their news tbh. I can tell you that what I've seen of European agriculture bears little kinship with diversity or wildlife or conservation compared to what we have here.

We're no more sustainable than the majority of EU agriculture.
Our GHG emissions are average when you take into account soil carbon losses (which are accounted for in intensive indoor systems).
Our soils are slowly being degraded from overuse of fertilizer and total disregard for the soil biology that must be respected to ensure long-term soil quality.

Our biodiversity continues to decline. Wild bees are declining here faster than the EU average. But yet bord via can come out and say that origin green is striving to make improvements in this area. How? Where are the rules around ditch management etc. They don't want anything solid which is grand, it's making it sound like they are doing serious work really annoys people.

(in areas such as minimising greenhouse gas emissions, conservation of water, good soil management, improving biodiversity, enhancing social and economic performance)

Not many of those boxes are ticked.

Europe is a diverse place and on the whole we're not any better than them, so while we're currently going in the wrong direction with things there's no reason to be patting ourselves on the back telling ourselves we're great because it doesn't help us in the long-term.



Conservation ag on the increase isn't a news story to sell to the public, it's being adopted by farmers who care about the real sustainability of their farms and are making changes. The majority of these wouldn't be noticeable from the motorway

Say my name

Here's a group of farmers who decided not to whinge about things on boards but decided to join forces and apply for EU funding and received assistance from Bord Bia, Glanbia, Kepak and Birdwatch Ireland.

https://www.thebrideproject.ie/

Panch18

Birdnuts wrote: »

We have one of the lowest acreage of Organic in the EU - not saying that organic is the be all and end all, put it certainly puts to bed the idea that Ireland is some sort of "green" oasis on such matters

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Panch18

gozunda wrote: »

I've travelled quite a bit through Europe and nowhere in Ireland can be compared to the vast souless acerages of arable and crops without a decent hedge for hundreds of miles. I remember travelling from Paris to the German border and we counted plenty of grass but hardly one animal grazing. They were all kept in huge indoor sheds without outside access.

The very first thing I see in Ireland coming back is the amazing network of wooded hedgerows, banks and ditches everywhere. Most of these are a haven for wildlife. Even the scabby ones bordering our ever expanding urban areas still host wildlife. The relatively small size of many Irish agricultural holdings means that there is a huge variety of biodiversity in each square mile with little of the massive monoculture found all over most of Europe.

Why some Irish people cannot see this diversity for what it is and instead constantly beat out the same old tune I really dont know.

Well said gozunda, I find it amazing really.

gozunda

You said

yosemitesam1 wrote:

We're being told false claims of how sustainable

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're no more sustainable than the majority of EU agriculture...

That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

Panch18

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

We're being told false claims of how sustainable and environmentally friendly Irish agriculture is very regularly. Everywhere has problems but at least we're not getting bombarded by other countries telling us how great they are.

Conservation ag is growing rapidly in Europe as well as loads of wonderful examples of sustainable farming like in the alps.
What's happening here, we tell everyone we're amazing...

The Alps??? Are you serious

They are a huge mountain range. How can you compare them to rich productive farmland in Ireland?

yosemitesam1

gozunda wrote: »

You said

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..



That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

minimising greenhouse gas emissions,
conservation of water,
good soil management,
improving biodiversity,
enhancing social and economic performance,
And as part of origin green bord via is striving to make improvements to our bee population (by doing nothing)


None of those boxes are being ticked

Gawddawggonnit

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/environmental-groups-urge-robust-approach-on-water-pollution-1.3205288



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715?mode=amp


https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2018/12/03/France-tops-Food-Sustainability-Index

Mooooo

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/environmental-groups-urge-robust-approach-on-water-pollution-1.3205288



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/farming-pollution-sees-water-quality-in-ireland-deteriorate-1.3715715?mode=amp


https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2018/12/03/France-tops-Food-Sustainability-Index

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Capercaillie

gozunda wrote: »

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

You perhaps need to visit an average dairy farm and then visit a farm that manages sympathetically for wildlife. The difference is huge.

Capercaillie

Mooooo wrote: »

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Not just farming that has a problem, incompetent County Councils, monoculture of Sitka spruce being clearfell, bogs being strip mined....

Say my name

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

Capercaillie

Say my name wrote: »

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

I'm not a holy warrior as I'm not religious

gozunda

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

minimising greenhouse gas emissions,
conservation of water,
good soil management,
improving biodiversity,
enhancing social and economic performance,
And as part of origin green bord via is striving to make improvements to our bee population (by doing nothing)
None of those boxes are being ticked

Tbh I dont care care about boxes being ticked. What false claims about sustainability? Whose claiming them and where?

What Bord Bia is striving to do is also irrelevant unless are they also making false claims about 'sustainability'?


I get it we have been set international environmental standards by others such as in the Kyota protocol etc but who is making false claims about sustainability?

gozunda

Capercaillie wrote: »

You perhaps need to visit an average dairy farm and then visit a farm that manages sympathetically for wildlife. The difference is huge.

I see what you doing there lol. Are the birds alighting on each others posts :pac:

Your point is? Btw as to your suggestion- have thanks. And yes there would be some differences but imo they are huge variations. We still have a huge diversity of farming operations even within relatively small areas. But by way of real comparison -
try going to visit one of the huge mono crop enterprises somewhere in France for example and you will see some really huge differences. They make the average Irish dairy farm look like a nature reserve.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Panch18 wrote: »

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Between a third and a quarter of organic beef and lamb is sold as conventional beef and lamb. So the margins claimed for organic produce in those sectors need to be taken with a (large) pinch of salt.


And, tbh, it's even worse than those figures show. Those organic figures don't include cows or ewes which are killed as conventional stock as it's a one-way open loop where organic stock can be killed as normal. If organic was a closed-loop where organic stock could only be killed as organic and supply the organic sector only, the price of organic meat would be the same or less than the current conventional price, with a higher cost base.


It can easily be argued that conventional feeding is actually subsidising organic feeding.

Lano Lynn

wrangler wrote: »

The EU did an audit and found thousands of claimed acres not eligible, roads, sites not taken out, even one farmer claiming for a lake, Northern Ireland applied an across the board penalty, however our department only penalised the messsers.
What choice had they, They had to stop overclaiming

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ireland-to-be-fined-63m-for-false-farm-payment-claims-355803.html

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-15631617

I do not consider myself a messer.
The good agricultural and ENVIRONMENTAL condition GAEC rules were used to keep inspectors in 'jobs' and has led to loss of countless pockets of biodiversity if all the areas of 'overclaimed' gorse rushes ponds rough grazing etc that were subsequently bulldozed were in one block there would have been even uproar from environmentalists than the gorse fires attracted.

I took the penalties and delays in payment on a couple of percent of my holding so I could keep some ponds and water meadow and a grove of trees (that provide shade for my rams in the summer) instead of being penalised I should have been paid even more than I was for growing bird cover so I reckon 1000 an ha instead of a penalty and demonised as a fraudulent messer:mad:

Lano Lynn

wrangler wrote: »

When bord bia were bringing clients here I'd never need any more notice than to ensure I was here, they've seen my sheep lambing indoors in the sheep hotel as one crowd called it, they've seen them out on the green grass, all sheep tagged, Hedges I've sowed, If other farmers are too lazy to be like that they should be penalised alright, but you see the criticism here when IFA wouldn't defend fraudulent claims.
As far as I'm concerned there's enough habitats on my farm, plenty of big ditches well breasted every year as well as new hedges for sheltering newborn lambs, wildlife can adapt or get out

please have this printed on your board of health and safety signs,
in big green letters and show it to your next group of visitors .

some wildlife does not 'adapt' that easy or fast and when they are gone they are gone.

Waffletraktor

gozunda wrote: »

You said

.

I said...

What false claims about sustainability?

You said..



That doesn't really answer anything about false claims about sustainability tbh

Now what I asked where are these false claims?

About the only thing sustainable in Ireland is the rain means you don't need fudge loads of irrigation schemes on top of the hydro carbon rich input system required to do any farming there. :pac:

Biodiversity is a great aim but it doesn't pay the bills for the majority although some can eek out a nice diversification business. The realities of living in a high cost western country means producing most of the produce for commodity prices leaves too little income for farms to have a viable future and those that do less able to afford non performing ground.
Don't see much changing until the next time people put a value on Tesco having 10 types of ready to eat lettuce available 12 months of the year rather than it just being a given right.

Birdnuts

gozunda wrote: »

Yes lad. Continental Eastern Europe and Turkey's agriculture in my experience is a mixture of the absolute intensive and piss poor. You are also talking about a huge geographical landmass compared to the Island of Ireland. So no we are not comparing ourselves to the 'worst examples' - I detailed Europe such as France which has a roughly comparable geographical and economic agricultural sector and not rooting in the bin of faraway countries. It remains we have remarkable diversity here. Could we improve things - yes we can. Should we go around pretending we are the worst of the worst and beating ourselves up all the time? No.

Did I say that?? - NO!!. I'm simply pointing out we are not an island of virtue above all others eitheir. France is a big country too and if you go to regions like the Dordogne you will get plenty of traditional wildlife friendly farms there and all

Birdnuts

Panch18 wrote: »

The Irish public also have one of the lowest demands in Europe for organic, supply and demand and all that

Try getting your organic cattle into the factory and see how hard it is and how little the premium is

Also the quality of our non organic product is such that Irish people don’t need to go for organic to be guaranteed top quality product. That is far from the case in a lot of countries, including ones such as the USA

Not so sure about that - a family member who works in head office for LIDL says they can't keep enough organic milk on the shelves. We don't even produce any organic butter in this country. Just cos one element may be over subsribed(folk are eating less beef anyway whether we like it or not) doesn't mean there isn't oppurtunities in the fastest growing sector in EU agriculture

Birdnuts

Mooooo wrote: »

Lakes Cavan an Monahan worst for phosphorus, not exactly livestock strongholds when it comes to derogation farms. The Tolka in Dublin worst for fish kills. I'd still say the council's in terms of untreated sewage or the worst perpetrators and it's within their control. Forestry management is poor too, forestry was felled near her and the river was black for a week.
Have to have a water sample taken for bord bia audit

Alot of intensive pig and poultry farms though. Forestry is an issue, not least the practices of Coillte

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

Stick up your hedgerows folks!

At least I started in a previous life, a "What's on your ditch?" thread a while back on here with pictures provided.
It might be no harm if some of the holy warriors on here contributed to that thread.

Oh I'm a dairy farmer.
Shock horror..:D

Let's see if the actions match the words??

Its does puzzle me why so many intensive dairy farms have there hedges cut to ribbons and knee height to a dwarf. You would think stock would benefit from the shelter a decent sized hedge provides during heatwaves, windstorms, driving rain etc. Another simple measure would have a fenced set-back from all water courses of 1 to 2 meters. Advantages would include a substantial reduction in run-off, better water quality, valuable wild bird corridor etc. This is where the likes of Bord Bia need to push their "origin green" agenda

gozunda

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its does puzzle me why so many intensive dairy farms have there hedges cut to ribbons and knee height to a dwarf. You would think stock would benefit from the shelter a decent sized hedge provides during heatwaves, windstorms, driving rain etc. Another simple measure would have a fenced set-back from all water courses of 1 to 2 meters. Advantages would include a substantial reduction in run-off, better water quality, valuable wild bird corridor etc. This is where the likes of Bord Bia need to push their "origin green" agenda

Must be your locality tbh I can count several local dairy farms locally which do not have hedges "cut to ribbons or knee height to a dwarf". In fact I cant think of any tbh. Reckon you may be generalising a little bit much there. Have you sent your suggestions into Bord Bia yet?

Meanwhile back in the real world

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/107500/1/#post109448187

Birdnuts

Waffletraktor wrote: »

About the only thing sustainable in Ireland is the rain means you don't need fudge loads of irrigation schemes on top of the hydro carbon rich input system required to do any farming there. :pac:

Biodiversity is a great aim but it doesn't pay the bills for the majority although some can eek out a nice diversification business. The realities of living in a high cost western country means producing most of the produce for commodity prices leaves too little income for farms to have a viable future and those that do less able to afford non performing ground.
Don't see much changing until the next time people put a value on Tesco having 10 types of ready to eat lettuce available 12 months of the year rather than it just being a given right.

It raises the question though - how viable are large intensive producers in reality?? We already know that 80% of CAP money goes to just 20% of producers, and they aint the ones with nice hedges and corncrakes knockin about the place. Its the same story in the US that has just a 5th of the farmers the EU has yet has a farm budget over 50% the size of the EU's with the vast majority of that money going to vast factory farms

Does any of that make sense in an era of embedded commidity price weakness, huge amounts of food waste, the growing obesity epidemic around the world etc.??