RWC '15: Pool A General Chat [AUS/ENG/WAL/FIJ/URU]

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 3:55pm

I think the difference in the past cases is that the player who got kicked was stationary or not really moving and the kicker is the one with most of the momentum so that's why they termed reckless.

In this case though the argentina guy has all the momentum and is diving down. There's isn't anything Carter could do here really.

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 5:52pm

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96315

Quite frankly find this ridiculous. Johnny May more or less jumps into that tackle (something he did later in the game too) and the Fijian could do very little to stop him going beyond the horizontal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwhfu8Pvdk4

Dunno if it's as clear cut as you say, the Fijian does grab and lift his leg to turn him upside down. Just a bit reckless really.

The Lost Sheep · 21-09-2015 7:00pm

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/96315

Quite frankly find this ridiculous. Johnny May more or less jumps into that tackle (something he did later in the game too) and the Fijian could do very little to stop him going beyond the horizontal.

I wouldn't say he jumps into that tackle at all. The Fijian could do quite a bit better in his tackle attempt.

.ak wrote: »

What a joke.

Is it? Think they were right to look at it and give a 1 game/week ban

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 21-09-2015 7:04pm

The annoying thing about that tackle is it was reviewed a bunch of times on the night and they decided it was fine. The argument about the TMO getting involved isn't helped by this at all.

total former · 21-09-2015 8:33pm

Tyler Morgan called up to replace Allen. Wales squad getting weaker and weaker.

.ak · 21-09-2015 9:24pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I wouldn't say he jumps into that tackle at all. The Fijian could do quite a bit better in his tackle attempt.
Is it? Think they were right to look at it and give a 1 game/week ban

They were right to look at it, absolutely.

Ban is a joke IMO

Stheno · 21-09-2015 9:25pm

.ak wrote: »

They were right to look at it, absolutely.

Ban is a joke IMO

Joke to me as they took proper care to land him safely

penybont exile · 21-09-2015 9:36pm

Very sloppy display from Wales yesterday ..... saying that it didn't come as a big surprise to me. We tend to struggle against 'lesser' opponents especially at the MS.

Despite the injury situation I'm confident we'll come out all guns blazing on Saturday. It's do or die now ......

Stheno · 21-09-2015 9:37pm

penybont exile wrote: »

Very sloppy display from Wales yesterday ..... saying that it didn't come as a big surprise to me. We tend to struggle against 'lesser' opponents especially at the MS.

Despite the injury situation I'm confident we'll come out all guns blazing on Saturday. It's do or die now ......

Your front row as it stands looks to be in serious trouble though.

irishbucsfan · 21-09-2015 9:38pm

It should have been a sin binning, nothing more. A ban implies they think it should have been more, I'd certainly disagree with that.

penybont exile · 21-09-2015 9:41pm

Stheno wrote: »

Your front row as it stands looks to be in serious trouble though.

We're on a wing and a prayer ..... admittedly.

But we're up against our fiercest rivals ...... I cannot see us not turning up for this.

aimee1 · 21-09-2015 10:11pm

wales arrived in london today and Paul James had his foot in a moon boot. He seems to be the most likely to be replaced before the weekend

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/34320522

captbarnacles · 21-09-2015 10:52pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwhfu8Pvdk4

Dunno if it's as clear cut as you say, the Fijian does grab and lift his leg to turn him upside down. Just a bit reckless really.

Not with the majority here. That's a reckless tackle and they could have doe more to make sure he landed safely. Again the critical thing here is the player wasn't injured but that really shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Also, when are the IRB going to demand referee's penalise players who jump into tackles?

.ak · 21-09-2015 10:52pm

penybont exile wrote: »

We're on a wing and a prayer ..... admittedly.

But we're up against our fiercest rivals ...... I cannot see us not turning up for this.

You may need to turn up yourself. Bring a pair of boots with you.

.ak · 21-09-2015 10:56pm

captbarnacles wrote: »

Not with the majority here. That's a reckless tackle and they could have doe more to make sure he landed safely. Again the critical thing here is the player wasn't injured but that really shouldn't be the deciding factor.

Also, when are the IRB going to demand referee's penalise players who jump into tackles?

I do think it was reckless, however two of the Fijians try to put him back down safely but they're cleared out before they can, so I don't think they drop him, ergo I don't think it's a ban.

I think the irb/wr are being overly pedantic and safe in this tournament. I reckon they're dreading an incident of foul play being seen by the world and painting the game in a poor light.

The problem is they're going way overboard with it and the games have been marred with overly pedantic tmo rulings, AR interjections and refs without common sense.

aimee1 · 21-09-2015 11:04pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04j4n46EC4

go to about a minute in. and watch the replay from behind the goal.

Stheno · 21-09-2015 11:07pm

aimee1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04j4n46EC4

go to about a minute in. and watch the replay from behind the goal.

Right I see what you are saying it does look like he deliberately runs into him after he's dived for the line?

aimee1 · 21-09-2015 11:10pm

Stheno wrote: »

Right I see what you are saying it does look like he deliberately runs into him after he's dived for the line?

its very similar to the North one [saints v wasps]. It is more clumsy then anything malicious but a player had to be removed as he was left concussed

Stheno · 21-09-2015 11:14pm

aimee1 wrote: »

its very similar to the North one [saints v wasps]. It is more clumsy then anything malicious but a player had to be removed as he was left concussed

That's a better description than mine, that's it's more clumsy than malicious.

I suspect a non citing would be on that basis.

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 11:15pm

.ak wrote: »

I do think it was reckless, however two of the Fijians try to put him back down safely but they're cleared out before they can, so I don't think they drop him, ergo I don't think it's a ban.

I think the irb/wr are being overly pedantic and safe in this tournament. I reckon they're dreading an incident of foul play being seen by the world and painting the game in a poor light.

The problem is they're going way overboard with it and the games have been marred with overly pedantic tmo rulings, AR interjections and refs without common sense.

They do try and put him down safely but only after turning him upside down.

Turning a guy upside down is the main problem here not what happens after yo do it.

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 11:17pm

aimee1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04j4n46EC4

go to about a minute in. and watch the replay from behind the goal.

Good spot.

I didn't realise Carter was as late as he was.

Yeah_Right · 21-09-2015 11:19pm

aimee1 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b04j4n46EC4

go to about a minute in. and watch the replay from behind the goal.

What should I be looking at? There's nothing there. Carter leaves a huge gap on the inside, runs to fill and is too late as the guy dives over the line at his feet. His connects with Carter's leg.

I thought in North's case Hughes tried to stop the try with his feet and got him in the head.

Saying Carter should be cited would be like calling for the Italian number 8 to be cited for knocking out Halfpenny on the last day of the 6 Nations.

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 11:25pm

There is, and has been for years, an issue with how we treat guys diving over for a try.

Some of the time what happens here is completely differently reffed than if it happened anywhere else on the pitch.

It's quite bizarre really as we've had a few guys injured in scoring a try (David Bory's knees on D'arcy, Dempsey scoring that right against England and also got some knees).

I personally thought Hughes getting off was a joke.

Looking at the Carter case though objectively, abjectly even (I'm not sure which one to use), what can he achieve by doing what he did?

He's too late against a guy half a foot off the ground.

.ak · 21-09-2015 11:25pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

They do try and put him down safely but only after turning him upside down.

Turning a guy upside down is the main problem here not what happens after yo do it.

Actually it's not. Tipping beyond the horizontal is fine so long as the player is placed down safely and not dropped or driven into the ground onto their head or shoulders.

Stheno · 21-09-2015 11:28pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6dqsOeISOE

Hughes like Carter hit him after the try scorer hit the deck, so it looks similiar

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 11:30pm

I disagree.

Once you tip a guy, especially as much as the two Fijians did, you're in very dangerous territory and there's too many what if's involved in bringing him down safely.

.ak · 21-09-2015 11:34pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I disagree.

Once you tip a guy, especially as much as the two Fijians did, you're in very dangerous territory and there's too many what if's involved in bringing him down safely.

Yeah but I'm just paraphrasing the actual law. You can, under interpretation of the law, tip tackle someone so long as you safely bring the back to the horizontal and safely to ground, which is what the Fijians are attempting to do before they're tackled.

CatFromHue · 21-09-2015 11:35pm

It's prob not a great example to discuss the law so as they turned him completely upside down. I'm not sure how they could have righted him if that's what the law says.

Stheno · 21-09-2015 11:36pm

.ak wrote: »

Yeah but I'm just paraphrasing the actual law. You can, under interpretation of the law, tip tackle someone so long as you safely bring the back to the horizontal and safely to ground, which is what the Fijians are attempting to do before they're tackled.

I think the citing here is more to do with trying to eliminate that type of tackle full stop, while not being within the remit of the laws if that makes sense?

And there's an element of whilst you and I might argue it was a safe grounding, this is the RWC, the showpiece for the game, and to casual/non fans it probably looked horrific.

Kinda like me watching Dublin vs Mayo in the first semi final, and then talking to GAA regulars who laughed the behaviour in that game off?

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 12:06am

My issue with the citing and suspension is that it was reviewed during the game. The ref, the TMO and the linesmen all looked at it and decided it was a penalty. Nothing more. To me that says it shouldn't be a suspension.

If the ref had called it after seeing it live (no video review) then I would be ok with a citing review. If it was bad enough for a 1 week ban then surely it should have been a red or yellow card. That means that 4 officials made the wrong call in the match.

Stheno · 22-09-2015 12:08am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

My issue with the citing and suspension is that it was reviewed during the game. The ref, the TMO and the linesmen all looked at it and decided it was a penalty. Nothing more. To me that says it shouldn't be a suspension.

If the ref had called it after seeing it live (no video review) then I would be ok with a citing review. If it was bad enough for a 1 week ban then surely it should have been a red or yellow card. That means that 4 officials made the wrong call in the match.

That seems to be a recurring issue the first weekend tbh.

It's also gotten a lot of press coverage in terms of the TMO involvement.

Come Wednesday, I'd be surprised if we don't see a change in the approach.

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 12:18am

Stheno wrote: »

Come Wednesday, I'd be surprised if we don't see a change in the approach.

Hope you're right. I have no issue with TMO involvement but the weekend was over the top.

Stheno · 22-09-2015 12:20am

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Hope you're right. I have no issue with TMO involvement but the weekend was over the top.

Same thought here, I do actually think though that it highlights bad refs.

If the WRU or whatever they are called take notice they might well get rid of the likes of Joubert/Peyper/Clancy or at least give them the requisite training as a result of what they've seen last weekend

22-09-2015 8:10am

CatFromHue wrote: »

I disagree.

Once you tip a guy, especially as much as the two Fijians did, you're in very dangerous territory and there's too many what if's involved in bringing him down safely.

Agreed. However, there's always the possibility of unintentionally tipping a guy in the tackle, and if and when that does occur, someone who then makes a big effort and returns the guy safely to the ground should not be penalized imo.

efb · 22-09-2015 8:14am

For me, the best Ref of the first round of matches was Wayne Barnes.

No significantly long stoppages and got all the big calls correct imho.

total former · 22-09-2015 8:15am

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/21/wales-injury-england-world-cup

A nice summary of Wales' injury crisis. Getting over the line against England would be some achievement.

22-09-2015 8:31am

Not to be forgotten but the Fijian player pleaded guilty. So while I don't think he should have been cited, he may have been successful had be chosen to defend himself.

Obviously seen as the lesser of two evils, think he was cited for a similar incident against SA recently so may have contributed to things.

.ak · 22-09-2015 8:35am

efb wrote: »

For me, the best Ref of the first round of matches was Wayne Barnes.

No significantly long stoppages and got all the big calls correct imho.

Ah for me it was Owens, if just for the bit where he essentially told the TMO to stop bothering him with silly things (like that 'around the neck' clearout where was just on the shoulder!)

Yeah_Right · 22-09-2015 9:20am

I wonder if the Fiji team decided to plead guilty knowing it would be a 1 match ban rather than risk defending it and possibly losing him for 2 or 3 games.

Agree with the assessment of Owens. I also have to say well done to Garces and Jackson. I thought they had good games too. I will never give Barnes any credit. It's simply not possible for me to do

.ak · 22-09-2015 9:29am

Updated OP with current standings.

efb · 22-09-2015 9:47am

.ak wrote: »

Ah for me it was Owens, if just for the bit where he essentially told the TMO to stop bothering him with silly things (like that 'around the neck' clearout where was just on the shoulder!)

The one issue about Owens, and it's not a big thing, is he does tend to make it about him a bit. He doesn't get much wrong and seems to get on well with the payers though.

I am more of an Owens fan than Barnes, I just thought Barnes allowed the game to flow more

.ak · 22-09-2015 9:50am

efb wrote: »

The one issue about Owens, and it's not a big thing, is he does tend to make it about him a bit. He doesn't get much wrong and seems to get on well with the payers though.

I am more of an Owens fan than Barnes, I just thought Barnes allowed the game to flow more

I don't get that vibe really. Owens only speaks when he needs to - i.e; there's an issue in the game. He's very quick when he speaks and I thought how he dealt with the TMO was brilliant, none of the other refs have the balls to do that.

aimee1 · 22-09-2015 10:14am

total former wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/21/wales-injury-england-world-cup

A nice summary of Wales' injury crisis. Getting over the line against England would be some achievement.

Getting a LBP and no more injuries would be a good result. Any win over fiji would give them a shot against the aussies

aimee1 · 22-09-2015 10:15am

efb wrote: »

The one issue about Owens, and it's not a big thing, is he does tend to make it about him a bit. He doesn't get much wrong and seems to get on well with the payers though.

I am more of an Owens fan than Barnes, I just thought Barnes allowed the game to flow more

Barnes allows NZ v Arg flow more. Much tougher for Owens to allow tonga v georgia flow.

22-09-2015 10:25am

aimee1 wrote: »

Barnes allows NZ v Arg flow more. Much tougher for Owens to allow tonga v georgia flow.

The NZ v ARG game only started to flow more when both teams realised that they weren't going to get away with slowing things down at the breakdown.

Now in fairness, to my mind it looks like not rolling away is being more harshly reffed since before the tournament but Barnes showed authority early and the teams responded to this.

Stheno · 22-09-2015 2:33pm

Looks like Jonathan Joseph is out of the England team to play Wales with an injury, expected to be out for a week

.ak · 22-09-2015 3:22pm

Barritt and Burgess at 13 maybe? Or Slade?

Stheno · 22-09-2015 3:24pm

.ak wrote: »

Barritt and Burgess at 13 maybe? Or Slade?

Slade being speculated on by the BBC

www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/34324696

aimee1 · 22-09-2015 3:25pm

.ak wrote: »

Barritt and Burgess at 13 maybe? Or Slade?

Power all the way i reckon

.ak · 22-09-2015 3:29pm

Hmm. With Scott and Roberts in midfield I'd be going for the big guys too.

However, the ironic part is Slade is probably the best defender in terms of positioning awareness...

RWC '15: Pool A General Chat [AUS/ENG/WAL/FIJ/URU]

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