What's the use?

SantaHoe · 04-05-2001 4:42am #1

Alright, I've just lost a huge post there... so here's the summary:
Irish is forced on us in school, many people have no interest in it... most people forget every word of Irish once they finish 6th year (myself included), there's little or no practical use for it outside of the classroom.
So... why bother forcing so many people to learn it just for the sake of times past?
Why not just leave it as an optional subject, for those who'd like to persue a historic or political vocation?
I'm 100% sure I'll never need to use Irish in any job I'll ever have.

Cake Fiend · 04-05-2001 5:02am

I went to All-Irish primary and secondary schools (my parents' decision the first time round, mine the second, because of friends going to that particular school). The fact that I was forced into learning the language left me with no respect for it. I could say that I'm proud to be Irish, and maybe if I had learnt the language out of choice (which realistically would never have happened) I could feel some sort of pride in it. As it is, I think of it as a useless, dead language and I don't see the point in keeping it 'alive' through force.
The last time I used the language was the Leaving Cert. and I don't see myself having any use for it in the future.

syringe · 05-05-2001 6:13pm

Some may not like it, but it's our national language and I think it'd be a very bad thing to lose it. A very bad thing indeed. We don't call it Ireland for nothing you know

If the leaves falling from the trees in Autumn were gold, or the white foam on the waves silver, Fionn would give it all away.

Bard · 05-05-2001 8:43pm

Originally posted by syringe:
Some may not like it, but it's our national language and I think it'd be a very bad thing to lose it. A very bad thing indeed. We don't call it Ireland for nothing you know

I don't quite follow you- what's the significance of the "Ire" bit?

http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=Ire
http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=A0009123

Ire - a synonym for 'anger';'wrath'

um... WhAt?!?!

Bard

"We do know it was we who scorched the sky..."

syringe · 06-05-2001 2:12pm

Yes, I lost the plot abit there

Ire, as in Irish, see?

Y'know what I mean anyway, it'd be a massive loss to a country to lose their language because ye lazy eejits don't like it

And did ya not see that ad with the 2 ones in the coffee thing and the guy sits down beside them and they start talking about him in Irish and he understands them?
0wn3d

And my signature came from the time when Irish was spoken, so there

God be with those days...

If the leaves falling from the trees in Autumn were gold, or the white foam on the waves silver, Fionn would give it all away.

Slydice · 06-05-2001 4:02pm

Originally posted by Bard:

Ire - a synonym for 'anger';'wrath'

um... WhAt?!?!

Does that mean if i says im gonna get Irish on your ass, its means im saying "im gonna kick yer ass"????????

qwidgybo · 07-05-2001 10:21pm

bhuel,if we lost irish,which would happen if it became and optional subject,all we would have left is english.DO YOU REALLY WANT THAT TO HAPPEN??REEEEEEEEALLY???

i really like the sound of "i'm about to get irish on your @ss"

qwidgybo

syringe · 07-05-2001 11:25pm

Just looking over a bit of history there, I know why. Irish is the first offical language of this nation, English is the second, according to Bunracht na hEireann. DE VALERA 0WNS J00R IRISH PANTS!

jArgHA · 08-05-2001 1:39pm

Lads,
This is probably gonna sound yer everyday yah-da yah-da but IMO its the truth. The reason why we attempt to keep up the tradition of speaking Irish (albeit in a small way) is out of respect for our history and heritage. We'd be a pack of sad ass sellout ba$terds if we forgot all our Irish roots and would have lost our own identity as a nation. That's the way I feel anyway altho that probably sounded like a lecture from Michael D Higgins or somethin...

Slán,
jAH

smoke.me.a.kipper · 08-05-2001 1:53pm

Originally posted by Slydice:
[Bim gonna get Irish on your ass[/B]

lol.

seriously, we can't get rid of it. it's part of who we are as a nation. [end remark]

"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them!"
-Nietzsche

tempis · 08-05-2001 8:28pm

I really have to agree. Granted, I enjoy the subject and went to an all-Irish secondary school by choice, and now having left school two years still keep it up, but even for those who hate the subject, it's part of who we are and where we came from. I never enjoyed history as a subject in school and that's forced upon us, but I still recognised the fact that all that has gone before was important to the way things are now, not just here in Ireland but around the world. Irish is in us all and it's imperative that we don't lose it.

Tuigim go h-iomlán. Admhaím go dtaitníonn an teanga liom agus go ndeachaigh mé ar meánscoil lán-ghaelach de rogha, agus go bhainim úsáid as fós agus mé imithe ón scoil dhá bhlian anois, ach fiú do na daoine gur fuath leo an ábhar, is páirt dínn é. Níor mhaith liom an stair ríomh agus mé ag freastal ar an scoil, ach ghlac mé leis gur fíor thábhachtach é gach rud a tharla cheanna féin i dtreo an slí atá an saol inniú agus ní amháin anseo in Éire. Tá an Gaeilge ionainn go léir agus tá sé so-thábahactach nach gcaillimid é

SantaHoe · 09-05-2001 2:57am

Originally posted by jArgHA:
...is out of respect for our history and heritage.

If that's the only reason to keep it, it's a pretty weak one. Let the past be the past.

We'd be a pack of sad ass sellout ba$terds if we forgot all our Irish roots

I'm not talking about all the elements of our Irish roots, just this one.
And selling out to whom? The English?!

and would have lost our own identity as a nation.

As I said above - this is IMO only a tiny part of our national identity.
More to the point - it's not a practical subject to be taught in schools, there's no need for it, and I don't see why so many schools force it upon their students.

Originally posted by: tempis
it's part of who we are and where we came from

IMO it's a part of who some of us are, and who most Irish people were.

The Scottish used to speak gaelic (or a form of), yet to the best of my knowledge it isn't being forced on Scottish school students.

Sure, a lot of you are glad you studied it, but many of us feel raped after all the years forced to study it against our will.
A free Ireland indeed.

[This message has been edited by Dead{o}Santa (edited 09-05-2001).]

Stephen · 09-05-2001 3:19am

I'm in sixth year. Doing ordinary level Irish for my leaving cert. I can tell you right now that i hate the subject and have no interest in it at all. It's going to be no use to me whatsoever after I leave school and I doubt I'll ever use it. It should not be forced upon students - It should be optional. Let those who want it learn it, but don't force-feed it to the rest of us. Irish may well be the "first" language of the nation but we all know that that is a pile of crap - Look at the national broadcaster, RTÉ - The vast majority of their programming is in ENGLISH - why? Because most Irish citizens don't speak their supposed first language!

About the comment above - History isn't compulsory after primary school afaik. It might be compulsory up to Junior cert level, I'm not sure, but it is most definately not required for the Leaving Cert.

Slydice · 09-05-2001 10:28am

Originally posted by tempis:
Níor mhaith liom an stair ríomh agus mé ag freastal ar an scoil, ach ghlac mé leis gur fíor thábhachtach é gach rud a tharla cheanna féin i dtreo an slí atá an saol inniú agus ní amháin anseo in Éire. Tá an Gaeilge ionainn go léir agus tá sé so-thábahactach nach gcaillimid é

An bhfuil a rá agat go bhfuil an gaeilge mar in gceanna le stair faoi an saghais tabhachtach a atá ann.?????

Caithaigh me aontaoinn leís an tuairim sin ach silím go mbeadh tú abalta nios mó a rá faoi na aiteanna a tagann an gaeilge as, agus go mbeadh tú abalta an tabhachtach a coimead ar, ach í slí ab b'feider leat e a cuir mar rúd fein.

==============

sorry if any bad grammer or speeling

==============

Puck · 09-05-2001 1:58pm

Originally posted by Slydice:
An bhfuil a rá agat go bhfuil an gaeilge mar in gceanna le stair faoi an saghais tabhachtach a atá ann.?????

Caithaigh me aontaoinn leís an tuairim sin ach silím go mbeadh tú abalta nios mó a rá faoi na aiteanna a tagann an gaeilge as, agus go mbeadh tú abalta an tabhachtach a coimead ar, ach í slí ab b'feider leat e a cuir mar rúd fein.

==============
sorry if any bad grammer or speeling
==============

I think we should keep our language because it is our herritage and well it's ours and it makes us different. Who wants to be the same as everyone else?

However I believe that the way it is taught in schools is completely wrong. Words are just force fed to kids only to be forgotten right after the exams! They read poetry and learn off stories before they even have the basic grammer to put a sentance together. The way Irish is taught is completely backwards! I did pretty good in Irish in both my Leaving and Junior Certs but because of the way it was taught to me I forgot it as soon as I didn't need it for exams anymore. I never really understood the basic grammer and as a result never really learned to speak it, only to make it look like I did on paper. As a result I haven't got a clue what the last post was about and that really bothers me. I would love to be able to speak Irish but I can't.

I have been trying to learn Irish since I was around 6 but I was only learning French since the age of 12. However the ways in which I was taught those languages were very different and because of this I can speak French way better than I can speak my own language. I would say that I am crap at both but I'm still better at French because I was taught the grammer of French and how to put a sentance together first before I started learning any stupid poems and stories off by heart. Come to think of it I never even had to learn any poems or stories off for French.

John (yes THE John!)

[This message has been edited by Puck (edited 09-05-2001).]

androphobic · 10-05-2001 12:23am

I think it would be a pity if Irish was made a choice subject.. although I understand that a lot of people don't like it.

I'm doing honours Irish for the Leaving, and there's only approx 12 ppl out of 100 doing Irish at higher level.. and there are a whole load of intelligent people in the year who could do it if they put their minds to it.
I think there's a sort of a stigma surrounding Irish.. possibly because it is obligatory, and a lot of people just have this thing against it.

Personally I'd love to do a degree in Irish but my employment opportunities would be limited afterwards.. so I think I'll stick to the European languages.. safer option.

Panda · 10-05-2001 1:20pm

Personally i dont like the langauge, but its probably bett that its kept going, it gives you a sense of being Irish.

If it was made an option for second level schools then youd see it disappear of the map.

On average, Irish teachers are **** tho, ive only ever met 1 decent teacher for the subject, compared to european language teachers anyway. Because of this i probably have more french than irish today.

Aka: Dragon,Sexual Harassment Panda, SCUMM.

Ex_hale · 10-05-2001 7:18pm

i live in the gaeltacht and have grown up with irish all my life and have also attended primary and post primary irish speaking schools. i think it takes a certain amount of experience to appreciate the language and the culture it brings with it, i know most people frown on it believing its useless and that theyll never use it but that choice rests with them, they can always use it if they want to! i dont think it should be a mandatory leaving search subject though, that choice should lie with the student but overall i wouldnt like to see the language die out,its an important part of our history and its great to be able to communicate in a different language once in a while, anyway i dont know what prompted me to post to this forum.. i guess i was just curious to see a board 'as gaeilge' and what ppl had to say about it

Beannachtaí

kieran

Magwitch · 14-05-2001 11:33pm

It is our national language, but not only are kids brough up to resent it but adults had to stand in dole queues or live in dumps when "native" speakers demanded on TV a cable car to the Aron Islands etc etc.

It is not the fault of most Irish speakers, but those who claim to speak, and do so very vocally, on their behalf. Attacks on people and property of those moving to Irish speaking areas have hardly helped the issue.

I hear an aweful lot about those "who hate" the irish language, but to be honest most of the xenophobia seems to come from those who claim to be the victems of that hate.

Keep your powder dry and your pants moist

acous · 15-05-2001 1:27am

Originally posted by Ex_hale:

kieran

taim go bhaile fanacht libh isteach san uisce teorrinna go maith ar sin sin go leor. leaba go raibh leaba mor madra ag snamh.

SHAMAN · 15-05-2001 5:29pm

I think we should still have to learn Irish but it should be removed from the Leaving Cert. as this is where everyone loses points here and having 2 pass it is ridiculous since we will most likely never use it

SantaHoe · 17-05-2001 6:03am

Originally posted by SHAMAN:
I think we should still have to learn Irish .... since we will most likely never use it

Bard · 17-05-2001 11:49am

I think his point, Santa, was that it's good to know our national language so that it stays alive somewhat, but it's unlikely to be needed practically, so shouldn't really be an examinable subject...

Fair point... I guess.

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

Hobbes · 17-05-2001 1:33pm

Irish is good if you want to get a goverment job as you get better marks if you do all the tests in Irish.

AFAIR you get +10% of your final score added.

It's also good if you want to watch TnG and are having problems with the english subtitles.

shaggy · 17-05-2001 8:38pm

shaggy · 17-05-2001 8:43pm

El Marco · 17-05-2001 11:50pm

WELL WITH irish we can slag of foreigners who speek english as well as their own language.
I mean wheres the fun in slaggin peeps if they know wat your sayin!!!

And most of europe speap english, I'm mean I dont want to be a robot and be the same as everyone else!!

WE'RE IRISH LETS KICK SOME NONE IRISH SPEEKIN *******!!

El Marco · 17-05-2001 11:51pm

FORGET MY SPANISH NAME AND ADDRESS :P

SHAMAN · 18-05-2001 4:41pm

Originally posted by Bard:

Fair point... I guess.

Thanx,Bard, That's exactly what i meant.
p.S. Sorry 4 being a psycho earlier on...

Slydice · 18-05-2001 7:25pm

Originally posted by El Marco:
WELL WITH irish we can slag of foreigners who speek english as well as their own language.

have to agrree with marco cos u know if ur in a foreign country their doing it to you, then the shocked look when we start speaking irish, and looking at them and laughing.

then they asked you what you were talking about and you say its an old joke or something funny that happened earlier

what a role reverrsal

muhuahhahahahaahahahahahaha

:

SantaHoe · 18-05-2001 8:47pm

Originally posted by Doc:
This is not a weak reason to keep it.

Well then, let's agree to disagree on that one.
Patriotism is one thing, spending hundreds(thousands?) of hours of your life learning a language you'll never use is entirely another.

Maybe you enjoyed learning it in school, and maybe you're proud that you can rattle off a quick phrase or two at some yank tourist, and maybe they'll think it's "just darling", and ask you if you've got any leprechauns... but I can think of a million more practical subjects I could have been learning over all those years.

Doc · 19-05-2001 12:53am

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:

Originally posted by jArgHA:
...is out of respect for our history and heritage
If that's the only reason to keep it, it's a pretty weak one. Let the past be the past.

This is not a weak reason to keep it. Our history and heritage makes us who we are today. Why do you think so many Americans come to Ireland to look up their ancestors? Our couture is very unique as we have kept our traditional music and our language and the lather is by far the strongest indicator of our difference to every other culture in the world. You would be amazed just how many people think we are still a part of the UK not to mention the vast amount of people in the world who don’t know we even have our own language. I believe the more difference and diversity we have from other cultures the better. I would dearly have loved to be able to post this in Irish but unfortunately I cant. I can speak a lot of Irish (though not as much as I would like) but I do speak little bits to English people (they get very impressed by this ) but fell ashamed when they ask how do you say this in Irish and I cant tell them . Irish should stay compulsory.

Dun · 19-05-2001 8:40pm

I did Irish at school, as did everyone else that went through the Irish educational system. I hated every minute of it. I hated that it was forced upon me, and that it had no 'use'. On the other hand I loved French and Spanish, and got an A2 in both of those, and managing to just get a C3 (hons) in Irish.
It wasn't long after I left school that I began to value having learned the language. I wished that I'd applied myself more and done a lot better, which I know I could have.
I think I would be devastated if I had been allowed to rob myself of this important piece of my heritage at an age where the only thing that seems important is what's going on in Buffy. I know loads of other people that feel the same way.
I feel though that the teaching of Irish is misguided in schools. No literature should be included in any part of the Irish syllabus until the class has a proficient knowledge of the Irish language. This may be seen by some as also denying some aspects of Irish culture, but there's much not point in concentrating on literature when the students are depending on the translation given by the teacher because their Irish is not good enough to read the particular pieces.

po0k · 20-05-2001 1:51am

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:

The Scottish used to speak gaelic (or a form of), yet to the best of my knowledge it isn't being forced on Scottish school students.

Sure, a lot of you are glad you studied it, but many of us feel raped after all the years forced to study it against our will.
A free Ireland indeed.

).]

Eg-Fúcking-Zactly.
it USED be spoken by the scots. It wasn't compulsory, so they found no need.
Why would you want to learn a foreign language before youwould learn your own?
It is outlandish like a malfunction.
The method of teaching Irish in schools is ar$e-wys.
Thank christ I have an Irish teacher who concentrated on the Grammer throughout the Juniour cert.
I by no-means claim to have a proficiency in it, and I wish to christ I'd gone to the Gealtacht one summer at least.
The literature is misguided. The teaching methods are dochreidte.
Why do we not have an English oral?
If we are taught Irish Culture as part of the Irish cirriculum, and similarly with french, why do we not teach our kids about British culture in the English class?
The ability to slagg some-one off in another language is encouraging, but more needs to be done, in positive ways to encourage the language. Normalise it. The grants scheme is a load of farce. Giving money to people cos they speak a particular language is not a democratic ethic. They should be given money because they are keeping our heritage (in the way of crafts and skills) alive for our children's and our own education and to do this successfully they must build houses in locations where the nearest shop might be 10 miles away, or the nearest form of healthcare could be a fgew hours away.
To say that the majority of people hate the IRish language is a falasy m.s. (mar shampla) Tá tú ag caint trí do hón. Any education is good. Why do you not complain that Maths is compulsory? I mean how many people use the series methods taught in Ordinary level? Or English, will you ever really recite any of the more obscure poems you had to learn? The two languages should be brought to the same level, so many other european and world countries have managed this. Why can't we?
Seán Ó Cholmáin

Bard · 21-05-2001 11:21am

Originally posted by [FCA]SyxPak:

To say that the majority of people hate the IRish language is a falasy m.s. (mar shampla) Tá tú ag caint trí do hón. Any education is good. Why do you not complain that Maths is compulsory? I mean how many people use the series methods taught in Ordinary level? Or English, will you ever really recite any of the more obscure poems you had to learn? The two languages should be brought to the same level, so many other european and world countries have managed this. Why can't we?
Seán Ó Cholmáin

Well said SyxPak... Here here!

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

Celt · 22-05-2001 1:01am

How does learning gaeilge give us a sense of irishness and our heritage?
Please elaborate.
Maths is used in many professions and its there to keep your options open.
Gaeilge is of no use at all.

Lads,
This is probably gonna sound yer everyday yah-da yah-da but IMO its the truth. The reason why we attempt to keep up the tradition of speaking Irish (albeit in a small way) is out of respect for our history and heritage. We'd be a pack of sad ass sellout ba$terds if we forgot all our Irish roots and would have lost our own identity as a nation.

We dont attempt to keep up the tradition of speaking irish, we are forced to.

I really have to agree. Granted, I enjoy the subject and went to an all-Irish secondary school by choice, and now having left school two years still keep it up, but even for those who hate the subject, it's part of who we are and where we came from. I never enjoyed history as a subject in school and that's forced upon us, but I still recognised the fact that all that has gone before was important to the way things are now, not just here in Ireland but around the world. Irish is in us all and it's imperative that we don't lose it.

What exactly does speaking irish have to do with irish roots? nothing?

I think we should keep our language because it is our herritage and well it's ours and it makes us different. Who wants to be the same as everyone else?

more of the "its our heritage" spiel. It doesnt make most people different, since most peopel dont use it or speak it.

Personally i dont like the langauge, but its probably bett that its kept going, it gives you a sense of being Irish.

It doesnt give me a sense of being irish...

i think it takes a certain amount of experience to appreciate the language and the culture it brings with it

What culture and where?

This is not a weak reason to keep it. Our history and heritage makes us who we are today. Why do you think so many Americans come to Ireland to look up their ancestors? Our couture is very unique as we have kept our traditional music and our language and the lather is by far the strongest indicator of our difference to every other culture in the world.

Our heritage does not make or mold us.
Our culture is unique as only 1% use our national language much?
Many other cultures still have their "traditional" language and music.

androphobic · 22-05-2001 11:49pm

If we didn't have Irish, people would probably be complaining that we don't have a language of our own.

I do believe that it's part of our culture. Maybe you can't see that if you live in a city but down in the bogs (and I don't live in a Gaeltacht) the Irish culture is more evident.
(PS not suggesting that city folk don't have some sort of culture.. just that it may be more difficult).

I'm proud to be able to speak Irish and think it's a shame so many people seem to detest it.
Though whether they detest it or not is probably another issue altogether.. a lot of young people argue against it simply because they have to learn it in school. Don't like it.. not good at it.. let's rebel and complain about it being obligatory.

At the end of the day, it's our language. Whether you use it when you're finished school or not is a personal decision, but at least you'll be able to hold a conversation in it (or should be).
If the "it's no use to us" argument is going to be applied, that argument could be applied with many subjects.. for instance you may choose to study geography for your LC but never use it again.
So what? It's knowledge and all such knowledge is useful.

In years to come, when your kids ask you to help them with their Irish homework, you can smile and say "Cad é an fadhb?"

Celt · 23-05-2001 12:13am

Hopefully they wont be having irish homework.
1) Geography can be used in quite a few professions.
2) Irish can only be used in one afaik, teaching.
Now, i do not see how irish can be part of our culture when it is not used/spoken by the vast majority of us.
And, irish culture is what we make it.

Bard · 23-05-2001 12:19am

Enough arguing already. Some believe it should stay, while some believe it shouldn't. Some believe it's an important part of our heritage and culture which moulds and defines us as a nation while some believe that that's a load of twaddle.

I'm not going to express a preference. I am, however, going to lock the thread if you guys keep arguing in an "I'm right, you're wrong, NYAH!" fashion. Both sides of the argument have their merits and their failings.

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

the fnj · 23-05-2001 1:43pm

I used it all the time when I'm on holidays. Most recently Amsterdam. When a bum comes up to you and says "have you any change buddy" the reply of Ni Higim (I know thats spelt wrong). Can be very funny. One guy asked me for change in English, Dutch, german, French and Spainish then gave up not knowing what the hell my repeated chants of Pob Mo Hoin meant.

Gwan irish it saves me from hobo's

Shiminay · 23-05-2001 2:03pm

I don't visit this forum very often, but hee's what I have to say on this arguement...

Irish is a compulsary language, fair enough. I think we're all in agreement that the way it's taught is not good and as a result, most people don't like the language because they have to learn it.

I think it's a good language - it sounds nice, it's (relativly) easier to learn than some (believe it or not, but English is probably the hardest to learn). I do believe there should be more of an emphasis on learning to Speak the language than learning poetry and analysing it etc (in the current way it's being taught). It'd love to be able to speak the language well - I don't mind about writing it down and stuff - I'll always have English for that, but it'd be nice to start a conversation in a place as Gaeilge and see how many other Irish people are there (eg in a foreign country) - it's always fun to out and out abuse people in Irish with a smile on your face so they think you're saying something nice.

Of course, this is a bit of a silly notion, so I'll make my point and be done with it!

I started learning French in secondary school. I was much better at French than Irish by the time my LC came 'round. I scored a D2 Higher in French and a D3 Ordinary in Irish.

Why did I do better in a language that I had 8 years less learning experience?
Here are some reasons...
1) It was my choice to do French
2) The emphasis was placed on learning practical applications of the language - writting letters, learning to read ads, speaking the language and learning how to listen to it. This was done in Irish too, but not to the extent it is in French.
3) At age 12, I felt more capible of learning a language. At age 4, no one can really decide they're gonna learn a language and be expected to know the advanced structures by the time they're 12 (when they're not speaking/interacting with it all the time).

So, what's my solution?

Keep it compulsary - I really do think we should learn it (if I have children, I'd hope they'd learn it). Change what's being taught. Focus on speaking the language in primary school (with *some* grammar and writing). Bring the advanced grammar in at secondary school level and focus on that and the spoken word up to Junior Cert level. At Leaving Cert, make it optional. Those who are good at languages will snap it up as it'll mean easy money in their points race for college. Those who are bad at langages can focus on what they're good at and everyone's a winner. Let this optional Leaving Cert course look at poetry and stories in the way the JC and LC courses currently do.

Sorry for the long post.

All the best!
Dav
@B^)
We were all set for a game of Ice Hockey when Frank Williams says "Sorry lads, I've forgotten my skates!"
[honey i] violated [the kids]
Tribes 2 Goodness
The Dawn of the Beefy King approaches...

androphobic · 23-05-2001 8:32pm

Originally posted by WhiteLancer:
2) Irish can only be used in one afaik, teaching.

It isn't used in many professions but it is necessary for TnaG, RnaG, etc.. there's heaps of Irish publication - not only school ones like Dreimire but the Irish newspaper Foinse is out every Sunday, for eg.

Irish graduates are also needed to translate legislative documents and as you know most official and some other publications are in both languages.

Originally posted by WhiteLancer:

Now, i do not see how irish can be part of our culture when it is not used/spoken by the vast majority of us.
And, irish culture is what we make it.

Irish is part of our culture. It is the language of many of our ancestors and is still available to us. No matter how much you choose to shun it, it's not going to die in the near future.
Irish culture is what we make it, and there are people who make the Irish language a part of their culture and will continue to do so.

Kharn.. good suggestions on the written/oral aspects etc, though I still reckon it should be kept to LC.

[This message has been edited by androphobic (edited 23-05-2001).]

amp · 24-05-2001 7:24pm

Well, most of you won't have gone through the disturbing world of Peig, or had an alcholic Irish teacher. I did and at the time I couldn't the point of Irish either.
Especially when there so much other stuff to do like pull girls bra-straps.

But since I left school I find myself appreciating the language more and more. Even just the way it sounds. And that's not just because TG4's weather girl is a honey.

Lunacy Abounds! GLminesweeper RO><ORS!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

Shiminay · 25-05-2001 2:33pm

Originally posted by amp:
Well, most of you won't have gone through the disturbing world of Peig, or had an alcholic Irish teacher. I did and at the time I couldn't the point of Irish either.
Especially when there so much other stuff to do like pull girls bra-straps.

But since I left school I find myself appreciating the language more and more. Even just the way it sounds. And that's not just because TG4's weather girl is a honey.

I agree with your sentiments exactly!!!

I hope that c*nt Peig Sayers is buring in hell and suffering more than anyone.
Her:"Cóin is a cóin is a cóin arís"
Lucifer:"STFU Peig you dumb biatch *slap*"

All the best!
Dav
@B^)
We were all set for a game of Ice Hockey when Frank Williams says "Sorry lads, I've forgotten my skates!"
[honey i] violated [the kids]
Tribes 2 Goodness
The Dawn of the Beefy King approaches...

Bard · 25-05-2001 2:45pm

Originally posted by amp:
Well, most of you won't have gone through the disturbing world of Peig, or had an alcholic Irish teacher.

Had the alcoholic teacher but refused after a while to do Peig Sayers (as did all our honours Irish class - yep! all 3 of them!) - instead we did "Tóraíocht Diarmud agus Gráinne" and bloody hell is it a fun book- warriors, battles, people being sliced in two from head to groin by sword, love, passion,... it's all there!

Bard

First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

SantaHoe · 26-05-2001 4:06am

If we didn't have Irish, people would probably be complaining that we don't have a language of our own.

Honestly now, do you think that's something many people worry about? (US? Australia?)

I took Geography for the LC because I found it interesting, learning how the earth works is (IMO) of more value than making a half-àssed attempt at learning/teaching a dead language.

I know it's part of our history, and having Irish people speak it enriches our national identity, but it's like keeping your great grand-fathers broken pocket-watch, and making your children polish it every day for many years, and in turn making their children polish it.
I personally don't feel the need (nor want) to speak Irish, and I'm pretty sure I could last a few years without speaking another word of it.

The point has been made about subjects like maths being compulsory - I think it's pretty obvious what careers are available to those with a strong grounding in math.
Yet career opportunities which arise out of a fluency in Irish are (as I see it) few and far between.
I wholeheartedly question the educational value of Irish.

PS. Bard, if you're getting sick of the back-and-forth'ers in this thread, at least let this thread live out it's days on humanities, where it can be properly dissected.

Bard · 26-05-2001 5:55pm

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:

PS. Bard, if you're getting sick of the back-and-forth'ers in this thread, at least let this thread live out it's days on humanities, where it can be properly dissected.



It's fine here, thanks.
Bard
First motorbike in the bible ???? - a Triumph! - 'And yea verily did Moses strike down the ammmanites, - and all the land did hear the roar of his triumph !!!'

androphobic · 26-05-2001 10:16pm

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:

Honestly now, do you think that's something many people worry about? (US? Australia?)

America is a multicultural society. By comparison, Ireland is most certainly not. They can't be compared - America didn't ever have a language like Ireland had/has.

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:

learning how the earth works is (IMO) of more value than making a half-àssed attempt at learning/teaching a dead language.

Whether Irish is dead or not is a personal choice by everyone. Yes, it is not spoken by many, but it is not "dead" for everyone.
If you chose to make "a half-assed attempt" at learning Irish, that was your decision. If you really hated it so much, then I doubt it was enjoyable.. but that was, as I said, your decision.

Originally posted by Dead{o}Santa:
The point has been made about subjects like maths being compulsory - I think it's pretty obvious what careers are available to those with a strong grounding in math.

I am not suggesting that Maths should not be compulsory at LC level. However, look at the LC Hons Maths course: sequences and series, differentiation, co-ordinate geometry, probability.. there are topics taught which are not necessary unless you intend to use Maths to a great extent at third level.
For instance, if you choose to do an Arts degree, as many thousands of students do, then it is unlikely you will need Maths. The same goes for foreign languages.

However, at least after six years in school, you have a strong mathematical ability, even if you'll never find the cartesian equation of a circle again.
Similarly, you will be able to speak Irish.

My basic point is that all education and knowledge is worth something. To you, Irish may seem useless.. to someone else another subject may seem useless - but at the end of the day you are (or should be) able to speak Irish. In my opinion, that is something to be proud of.

[P.S. Peig might be bad.. but try reading the Donegal Irish of "Caisleain Oir" after learning Connacht Irish for 14 years..

]

Stephen · 26-05-2001 11:16pm

Maths still has a hell of a lot more practical appliances in life than Irish does. I know arts courses etc won't need maths, but good maths skills will be a boon to anyone doing engineering, physics or IT-related courses (and others) in college and after.
Irish is useless for the vast majority.

- Munch

recordset · 27-05-2001 1:57am

If practicality is going to be the measure against which subject matter is deemed worthy of spending an educational system's money on, and thus students' time and energy on, then there needs to be radical changes to the status quo.

Practical: learning how to maintain your boss's favor while turning down extra drudge work.

Impractical: being able to knowledgably discuss every esoteric aspect of all of Joyce's works.

Obviously, I am defining practical and impractical as they relate to the furtherance of an individual's quest for money...which is what "practicality in the real world" is all about, isn't it?

Hell, marvelling at sunsets is impractical.

Exercising so you will be able to tote heavier packages on the job is practical.

I, for one, am all for impracticality. Learning a different language, or learning ANYTHING for that matter, only betters your personality, broadens your horizens (if not your pocketbook) and makes you a more interesting and charming person. However, anytime someone is "compulsed" into doing something they do not enjoy (or are unable to see the benefit of), they will rationalize their feelings...both to themselves and others.

SantaHoe · 27-05-2001 5:06am

America is a multicultural society. By comparison, Ireland is most certainly not.

Do you live in a sealed box in a warehouse somewhere?
We may not yet be at the same level as somewhere like New York, but give it a few more years.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the rest of your flame-ridden argument Andro, go read this thread in its entirety before posting.

I've yet to see a single logical argument put forth as to why we should be forced to learn Irish.
All support seems to be based around nostalgia, vague patriotism, and the ever predictable (and quite frankly weak) 'well then why do we learn this?' argument.
The Irish language is fine by me, and to a large extent I'm proud of it, let those who have an interest in it learn it... I just think it's unfair that those who don't want to learn it are forced to.

I suppose this is just one of the problems with our one-size-fits-all education system.

What's the use?

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