All things relating to Jordan Peterson

SkepticQuark · 16-07-2018 11:13pm

Pug160 wrote: »

Oh sure, I think there must be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on with Peterson, but the fact he's religious and has made a few curious claims is certainly no basis for completely disowning him. You could pick faults with anyone if you tried hard enough, but the sensible thing to do is to read and listen to everything with objectivity. Someone mentioned Christopher Hitchens earlier. He supported the Iraq War, right? That was not a popular position to take, but I'm guessing it didn't diminish his reputation as an intellectual. There is probably a ''fly in the ointment'' with everyone - it shouldn't be a big deal.

Supporting the Iraq War and claiming that to be a "real atheist" you must be a murderer are two very different levels of "faults" in my mind. Only one of those positions is being pushed by legit nutters. They are totally incomparable and to try and compare them as if they are equally as ridiculous (bear in mind in Hitchens case I'm talking about the thoughts on the position during his lifetime not after) is in itself disingenuous.

If you want to read or listen to something objectively then there are plenty of faults to be found with Peterson. Which I will touch on later but quotes like "If you don't say what you think then you kill your unborn self" spring to mind as to why I haven't ever really seen him as some amazing genius of our time not to mention his ideas on "truth" are ludicrous.

RIGOLO · 17-07-2018 10:44am

Pug160 wrote: »

Oh sure, I think there must be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on with Peterson, but the fact he's religious and has made a few curious claims is certainly no basis for completely disowning him. You could pick faults with anyone if you tried hard enough, but the sensible thing to do is to read and listen to everything with objectivity. Someone mentioned Christopher Hitchens earlier. He supported the Iraq War, right? That was not a popular position to take, but I'm guessing it didn't diminish his reputation as an intellectual. There is probably a ''fly in the ointment'' with everyone - it shouldn't be a big deal.

Well said ...
Perfection is the enemy of good.

DeadHand · 17-07-2018 1:39pm

roddy15 wrote: »

Except for the fact that Peterson parrots classic Christian apologetics while his cult following in a lot of cases atheist or agnostic themselves seem to ignore or actually try to reconcile his beliefs with their own views, for fear of realising Peterson isn't the perfect person they seem to think he is.

Anyone who starts trying to explain that a "genuine" atheist would be a murderer isn't preaching values of those who criticise the Catholic Church I'm sorry to tell you. I'd also add that such claims you'd normally hear from the likes of Ray Comfort definitely should detract from the "genius" label you seem to want to apply to him.

Oh, I forgot the other thing, his whole you can't quit smoking "without a mythical experience" and proceeded to claim this was some sort of scientific fact backed by evidence when it really sounds like pseudoscientific bull**** which Dillahunty then proceeds to call out.

Oh sure, I agree with you to an extent: I get exasperated when Peterson dives into the religious. It becomes a tiresome hobby horse for him. He does have odd and plain wrong ideas about certain things, only the blindest of cultists would argue otherwise.

However, I believe in religious tolerance (where said religion does not impinge on the well being and liberty of others) so I won’t dismiss a person in the grounds of his beliefs. There are hundreds of hours of Peterson’s thoughts available online, within that mammoth corpus there are bound to be several dubious quotes- as there would be from any human being were their musings subject to such documenting and scrutiny.

I’m not putting the three men in the same league but should Isaac Newton’s scientific advances be ignored because the man had various religious and occultist beliefs that would make Peterson’s look pedestrian? Does Oscar Wilde’s art lose all merit because the man was, by modern legal standards, a pedophile?

I think it’s better to look the general body and core of the doctor’s teachings and make a judgement either way than seize upon a wild tangent and proclaim him a worthless nut: more witchunter thinking.

His religious views do chime with me even as a non-religious person a tad in that I’d agree that Christianity is one of the foundational blocks of the unmatched success of Western civilization and that the Bible is an important document and, sections thereof at least, are a font for useful wisdom that can be applied in modern life by people of any faith and none.

As to the question of his genius, seeing him in full flow I’m inclined to believe he is- my mind is subject to change on that as he and I progress. It’s subjective ultimately.

As I said, it’s the context that makes Peterson, not his brilliance. He’s an articulate, popular point of resistance against ideologies that are dangerous and dangerously dominant. In a sane world, he would be a quirky self help guru. In this world, he is one of the most important thinkers of the day.

professore · 17-07-2018 2:06pm

roddy15 wrote: »

If you want to read or listen to something objectively then there are plenty of faults to be found with Peterson. Which I will touch on later but quotes like "If you don't say what you think then you kill your unborn self" spring to mind as to why I haven't ever really seen him as some amazing genius of our time not to mention his ideas on "truth" are ludicrous.

This is a metaphor? You kill the person you could be by lying. What's wrong with that? It's self evidently true.

professore · 17-07-2018 2:11pm

Danzy wrote: »

The modern Left would do well to look at the Church in Ireland, it tried the same attitude and people eventually stopped listening.Looking at their voter base turning away from them all over Europe, it is easy to see history repeat itself.

This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.

Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.

A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

Danzy · 17-07-2018 10:57pm

professore wrote: »

This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.

Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.

A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

The Middle Class took over the Church, same can be said of the Left today, which is often a cold house for Working Class people or those who have not taken the soup fully, to keep the historical references going.

I found myself reading a Guardian article recently and it was giving out about people and their thought crimes, I realized I was humming. "It's a sin" by the Pet Shop Boys.

All beliefs systems, political, religious, social etc when they became obsessed with their analysis, rules, doctrine become a religion.

God has very little to do with religion. The same human foibles that lead to the Revolution eventually shooting most of those who fought in it, are in the Church, are in your local club or society.

splinter65 · 18-07-2018 8:24am

professore wrote: »

This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.

Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.

A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

I’m interested as to how you or your friend expect a catholic funeral NOT to be the same as it ever was.
A catholic funeral involves a funeral mass.
A mass is a mass.
Then there are prayers as the coffin leaves the church and at the graveside.
In what way should this be changed in your opinion, and why?

silverharp · 18-07-2018 9:06am

professore wrote: »

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

on the one hand you can park it, its not relevant to his other ideas. I cant say I understand his position on religion but I did note some commentators in some of his interview comment sections describing themselves as something like religious/christian atheists after listening to him :pac:. You could have a slightly new age take on it or a deist take perhaps.

Harika · 18-07-2018 9:30am

Danzy wrote: »

The Middle Class took over the Church, same can be said of the Left today, which is often a cold house for Working Class people or those who have not taken the soup fully, to keep the historical references going.

I found myself reading a Guardian article recently and it was giving out about people and their thought crimes, I realized I was humming. "It's a sin" by the Pet Shop Boys.

All beliefs systems, political, religious, social etc when they became obsessed with their analysis, rules, doctrine become a religion.

God has very little to do with religion. The same human foibles that lead to the Revolution eventually shooting most of those who fought in it, are in the Church, are in your local club or society.

As mentioned here already, church hasn’t changed much over the last centuries. Mass is mass, what changed is the influence of church has diminished mainly because people can read and even before the scandals church was in decline. When you have enough time on your hand to read and think for yourself, church becomes more and more obsolete. And this causes a lot of issues, where myself and Peterson agree. The century old order has been abolished and nothing equally or better is in place.
But there is still a decent size crowd going to church every Sunday, so what stops his followers to go to church on a regular base and follow the church doctrine that hasn’t changed in centuries? You work hard, you obey authorities and when you are dead you get rewarded in heaven for your deeds on earth. It’s not hard.
God and church were always disconnected as e.g. Christians had no issues killing people in the name of god. God was always used to manipulate the masses. As said this foundation has eroded. And in the past, one of the most dangerous factors were unemployed angry young men that can easily manipulated by the upper class for their needs. See Peterson.
I would challenge that middle class has taken over church, Irish society simply has evolved more people from the lower class to the middle class in the last centuries. Now this middle class is diminishing as the working world changes and a lot of JPs followers are finding themselves in the now lower class, so a class below their parents. What is hard to swallow as it is expected from this generation to be better than the last generation.

PlaneSpeeking · 18-07-2018 10:19am

professore wrote: »

This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.

Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.

A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

Yeah this. I've a friend who married a mad atheist bird, slagged me off every time I went to church.

Got married in our local parish church because the backdrop looked "pastoral" in the pics.

There are religious folk. Leave us be to have our activities.

You don't want to take part ? I understand Dale Winton had a humanist funeral and Carol Smylie is now a humanist minister - perhaps that is your way to go ?

DickSwiveller Returns · 18-07-2018 11:22am

professore wrote: »

This. The parallels are astonishing. I think it's that section of society who want to be SEEN to be virtuous and good that previously gravitated to the Church and preached to the rest of us how sinful we were need a new home when being associated with the Church is seen as toxic.

Calling out people on real or imagined slights, the in group and out group identification, the one upmanship in piety, similar to virtue signalling, it's all the same. Even the chanting of simplistic slogans is reminiscent of the mindless singing of hymns and repeating prayers. The paedophilia hasn't got there yet, but give it time, they already are fine with giving young children who think they are trans hormones, it will be seen as just another sexual orientation.

A mate of mine said he went to a funeral recently and the whole thing was exactly the same as it was 40 years ago with the same old brainwashing messages. I think some people need this in their lives so as not to have to actually think for themselves.

Peterson's religious bent is the one area I have big problems with.

I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.

PlaneSpeeking · 18-07-2018 11:30am

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.

+1

Well put.

DickSwiveller Returns · 18-07-2018 11:34am

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Yeah this. I've a friend who married a mad atheist bird, slagged me off every time I went to church.

Got married in our local parish church because the backdrop looked "pastoral" in the pics.

There are religious folk. Leave us be to have our activities.

You don't want to take part ? I understand Dale Winton had a humanist funeral and Carol Smylie is now a humanist minister - perhaps that is your way to go ?

Can't stand these bores. I think the famous linguist Noam Chomsky (and atheist) summed these people up well:

""I'm not impressed with it, frankly. And I don't think they address the concerns, feelings and commitments of seriously religious people. Yes, they do address the concerns of people who think the world was created ten thousand years ago, but they're not going to listen to these arguments -- not in the arrogant form in which they are presented. Discourse is possible. And if people want to believe in, say, a future life, or a divine figure, that's their right. What does bother me much more is, for example, reading publications from the Hoover Institute at Stanford University which describe Ronald Reagan, their divinity, as a 'colossus' striding over the country whose spirit looks over us like a loving ghost." - Noam Chomsky

PlaneSpeeking · 18-07-2018 12:04pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Can't stand these bores. I think the famous linguist Noam Chomsky (and atheist) summed these people up well:

""I'm not impressed with it, frankly. And I don't think they address the concerns, feelings and commitments of seriously religious people. Yes, they do address the concerns of people who think the world was created ten thousand years ago, but they're not going to listen to these arguments -- not in the arrogant form in which they are presented. Discourse is possible. And if people want to believe in, say, a future life, or a divine figure, that's their right. What does bother me much more is, for example, reading publications from the Hoover Institute at Stanford University which describe Ronald Reagan, their divinity, as a 'colossus' striding over the country whose spirit looks over us like a loving ghost." - Noam Chomsky

Bloody good quote there!

professore · 20-07-2018 2:58pm

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

I think that is a very simplistic narrative - and of course the obligatory reference to pedophiles has to be added in. Many people - including myself- enjoy the communal aspect of mass and religion in general. In a society which is becoming increasingly atomized, in which people are increasingly living lonely lives, the Church provides people with an outlet, a place were they can mix with others and feel a part of something bigger. It's nothing to do with feeling virtuous, and there's no mass brainwashing going on.

It's clearly not the whole narrative - I agree with the positives you outline here. However you have to acknowledge there are also the types I outline in the church - to this day. I consider myself an agnostic in that I doubt there is a man in the sky but it's impossible to prove so I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume he doesn't exist.

DickSwiveller Returns · 20-07-2018 4:34pm

professore wrote: »

It's clearly not the whole narrative - I agree with the positives you outline here. However you have to acknowledge there are also the types I outline in the church - to this day. I consider myself an agnostic in that I doubt there is a man in the sky but it's impossible to prove so I am not going to be so arrogant as to assume he doesn't exist.

Of course there are. And I find them a turn off as well. But these kinds of people are not limited to organised religion. You get fanatics everywhere. But the majority of people I know who help out in my local church are decent, kind people who clearly get a great deal of comfort from the church. I'm not going to sneer at them and call them brainwashed.

Pug160 · 20-07-2018 5:12pm

I've been having a flick through some old debates and discussions between atheists and religious apologists, and one interesting character who I've noticed is someone called Alister McGrath (he's apparently from Belfast but it sounds as though he's had a lot of elocution lessons). But anyway, he comes across as extremely intelligent and civilised and appears to have a lot of academic qualifications. I suppose he's similar to Jordan in that the term cognitive dissonance jumps out at you once again.

DickSwiveller Returns · 20-07-2018 5:47pm

Pug160 wrote: »

I've been having a flick through some old debates and discussions between atheists and religious apologists, and one interesting character who I've noticed is someone called Alister McGrath (he's apparently from Belfast but it sounds as though he's had a lot of elocution lessons). But anyway, he comes across as extremely intelligent and civilised and appears to have a lot of academic qualifications. I suppose he's similar to Jordan in that the term cognitive dissonance jumps out at you once again.

Yes, he's an interesting person. He's an Anglican priest as well. If you're interested, he features in this discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRQp2KqiSRw

professore · 21-07-2018 9:28am

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

Of course there are. And I find them a turn off as well. But these kinds of people are not limited to organised religion. You get fanatics everywhere. But the majority of people I know who help out in my local church are decent, kind people who clearly get a great deal of comfort from the church. I'm not going to sneer at them and call them brainwashed.

I didn't mean to imply they were. I've read some books on the Soviet Union recently and those kinds of people were very prevalent there.

professore · 21-07-2018 9:29am

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m interested as to how you or your friend expect a catholic funeral NOT to be the same as it ever was.
A catholic funeral involves a funeral mass.
A mass is a mass.
Then there are prayers as the coffin leaves the church and at the graveside.
In what way should this be changed in your opinion, and why?

The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.

For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.

Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.

Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.

splinter65 · 21-07-2018 1:18pm

professore wrote: »

The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.

For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.

Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.

Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.

What element of the homily did you find didn’t reflect “the world we live in today”?
I wasn’t surprised at all that of the 80% “Catholics” who voted in the referendum at least 60% aren’t Catholics at all.
The “teachings” as you refer to them aren’t wrong.
The Irish church hierarchy are wrong.
They completely failed to come out during the referendum campaign and give clear concise and unambiguous instructions to the “faithful”.
This cowardice in the face of the borderline facist liberal left will be rued in years to come.

iptba · 21-07-2018 7:44pm

Jordan Peterson: ‘What the hell’s wrong with self-help books?’

Alt-right icon or incisive psychologist? The Canadian professor says his priority is to help people take charge of their lives

about 13 hours ago
Laura Kennedy

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/jordan-peterson-what-the-hell-s-wrong-with-self-help-books-1.3570183

A long Irish Times review. Seems fair enough though I haven't read the book yet (I did order a copy this week following all the discussion)

The downside comes when people have not paid any attention at all to what I was saying, or used unbelievably selective editing. It’s stressful, but it isn’t obvious that it’s been counterproductive.”

Without the explosion of alternative and social media Peterson could not be the personality he is. The traditional-media monopoly on the delivery of information has gone – and, with it, universally accepted narratives. The unbridled, context-free dissemination of Peterson’s work, and other people’s online responses, explain in part why some people dismiss him as an advocate for hateful right-wing propaganda, of wanting to shove women back into the kitchen, and of being an existential threat to liberal values and progress. It is also why others embrace him as psychologically incisive, philosophically meaningful, and reassuringly unafraid to admit that biology has a role (not necessarily an unmediated one) in everything we do, including difficult topics like gender.

His books and lectures show that he is neither the Christ figure his passionate fans (or, rather, a minority of his overly devoted fans) think nor the sexist, transphobic, tyrannical Antichrist his detractors make him out to be.

A left-wing activist in his youth, he denies any claims of an anti-left-wing bias, insisting that his issue is with totalitarian far-left ideology.

“It’s not like the left isn’t necessary. People get dispossessed, and someone has to speak for them. So I think when the left is operating properly it speaks for the dispossessed without denying the utility of functional hierarchies, and so there’s none of this ‘the patriarchy is an oppressive entity’ nonsense. It’s like, partly it’s oppressive, but the ‘partly’ is really important . . . Without it, it’s not the voice of the oppressed. It’s the voice of resentment . . .

DickSwiveller Returns · 21-07-2018 7:56pm

professore wrote: »

The sermon could be different. It could be more reflective of the world we live in today.

For example the recent abortion referendum - the Catholic churches position on abortion is very clear - abortion is murder, even the morning after pill. Murder is about as bad as it gets on the sin scale. As a side note, I'm not a fan of unrestricted abortion either for humanist reasons.

Something in the region of 80% of people identified as Catholic in the last census. Yet large majorities of people under 65 voted in favour of it. Something doesn't add up. Lots of people didn't even seem to think about it in any deep way. The teachings are not working.

Goes without saying that a funeral might not be the best place for this sermon.

But if fundamental moral principles change depending on what is currently fashionable then they are not moral principles - and the Church will die overnight.

professore · 22-07-2018 10:40am

splinter65 wrote: »

What element of the homily did you find didn’t reflect “the world we live in today”?

I wasn't at the funeral in question, it was a friend of mine so I don't know.

I will say I was at a mass a few years ago and it was a beautiful sunny day and the priest just said "It's not often we get weather like this so I won't keep you too long". One of the most appropriate sermons I ever heard.

professore · 22-07-2018 10:41am

DickSwiveller Returns wrote: »

But if fundamental moral principles change depending on what is currently fashionable then they are not moral principles - and the Church will die overnight.

I absolutely agree.

I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.

The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.

I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.

DeadHand · 22-07-2018 11:21am

Surprisingly evenhanded appraisal of JP from the Irish Times there: a painfully PC organ.

It didn’t sing his praises either, but it provided all I and I think most reasonable observers want to see: a fair interview, an accurate summation of the facts around his rise to prominence and (most refreshingly) no dishonest misrepresentation of his positions.

I nearly cried with joy when the journalist managed to characterise accurately and truthfully the original pronoun controversy which propelled him to fame.

It stands in contrast to the ignorant and/or lying hatchet jobs circulating about JP painting him as some transphobic campaigner.

Never thought I’d find myself in admiration of the IT, but there you are. They did, in this instance, what journalism should be doing: telling the truth. It got at the fundamental kernel that, ultimately, Peterson is merely trying to help people.

Danzy · 22-07-2018 12:17pm

professore wrote: »

I absolutely agree.

I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.

The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.

I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.

A common value system is one of the key pillars of a high trust society, a functioning society.

A bad plan is always better than no plan.

DickSwiveller Returns · 22-07-2018 12:35pm

professore wrote: »

I absolutely agree.

I was raised a catholic, went to a convent, and later a Christian brothers school, and was even an altar boy for a few years.

The morality I learned was mostly positive, although the overemphasis on the evils of sex was very bad IMO. My concern is there is no equivalent morality today. For example on the personal issues forum lots of people seem to think if a single person goes after a married one the single person is doing nothing wrong. How they can think that's OK boggles my mind.

I see an increasingly atomised society forming where its all about me me me and the more you can screw other people to benefit yourself the better. Very sad.

agree completely

iptba · 09-08-2018 6:41pm

VICTORIA WHITE: Who decided that career is more important than love and family?

Thursday, August 09, 2018

Holidays are for reading all those books you’ve been discussing with your friends for weeks, but haven’t actually read.

Sign in or register for FREE to continue enjoying and to comment on our great range of opinion writers

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html

Also here:
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20180809/281505047043548

DickSwiveller Returns · 09-08-2018 10:43pm

iptba wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/victoria-white/who-decided-that-career-is-more-important-than-love-and-family-473102.html

Also here:
https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-examiner/20180809/281505047043548

Book arrived today. Looking forward to it.

Pug160 · 15-08-2018 4:04pm

I just watched another interview today - this time it was the BBC's Stephen Sackur on the Hardtalk programme. I was actually expecting better from him as I seem to remember watching that particular show before and thinking he was a decent enough presenter. But once again it looks like he had made his mind up before the interview started and had no intention of conducting an objective interview. These are simply carbon copies of each other and no one is going to learn anything from them. It's both annoying and frustrating to watch so many intelligent people who are unwilling to sit down with an open mind. If critical thinking is a by product of intelligence then why are so few of these people showing it? Sure, I know it's probably hard for anyone to see past their ideologies at times but these people are experienced professionals.

16-08-2018 12:00am

Pug160 wrote: »

I just watched another interview today - this time it was the BBC's Stephen Sackur on the Hardtalk programme. I was actually expecting better from him as I seem to remember watching that particular show before and thinking he was a decent enough presenter. But once again it looks like he had made his mind up before the interview started and had no intention of conducting an objective interview. These are simply carbon copies of each other and no one is going to learn anything from them. It's both annoying and frustrating to watch so many intelligent people who are unwilling to sit down with an open mind. If critical thinking is a by product of intelligence then why are so few of these people showing it? Sure, I know it's probably hard for anyone to see past their ideologies at times but these people are experienced professionals.

Ah, Hardtalk is always a tough interview which asks oppositional questions shall we say..It wasn't that he wasn't objective I thought..

The clue is in the name..

iptba · 16-08-2018 12:50am

Pug160 wrote: »

I just watched another interview today - this time it was the BBC's Stephen Sackur on the Hardtalk programme. I was actually expecting better from him as I seem to remember watching that particular show before and thinking he was a decent enough presenter. But once again it looks like he had made his mind up before the interview started and had no intention of conducting an objective interview. These are simply carbon copies of each other and no one is going to learn anything from them. It's both annoying and frustrating to watch so many intelligent people who are unwilling to sit down with an open mind. If critical thinking is a by product of intelligence then why are so few of these people showing it? Sure, I know it's probably hard for anyone to see past their ideologies at times but these people are experienced professionals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAIEYYh7oyM

blinding · 16-08-2018 1:44am

Great stuff from Peterson again as usual .

16-08-2018 11:09am

Jordan Peterson DESTROYS Dishonest TV CUCK Stephen Sackur

Pug160 · 18-08-2018 9:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah, Hardtalk is always a tough interview which asks oppositional questions shall we say..It wasn't that he wasn't objective I thought..

The clue is in the name..

I remember watching it before and finding it somewhat stimulating. That's why I was disappointed when I viewed this interview with Jordan Peterson. I thought he (Sackur) would have shown some originality at the very least, but all he did was go over the same line of questioning as the many interviewers before him, whilst looking rather emotional at times. Then he goes down the tiresome lobster route in an apparent attempt to embarrass Peterson and downplay his credentials. As if that wasn't attempted before. I don't think it meets the requirements that should be set for an experienced journalist/presenter of that calibre. Peterson has been in the public eye for a while now and someone with Mr. Sackur's intellect and experience should have surely been able to do better homework and challenge Peterson more than he did.

I know the BBC has its critics, especially for the perception that it's somewhat biased. For me personally, I don't even think it's necessarily a big issue but I do expect quality of some sort. Just remember that some people are paying a licence fee for this. There have been some amazing programmes over the years, like some of David Attenborough's wildlife/natural history shows (and even some of Louis Theroux's documantaries, which I find half decent), which I'm sure most people would find good value for money, but if you're watching an experienced professional who is unable to do any better than what a spotty faced teenager on work experience could do then it can understandably be frustrating to watch. I'll probably not be having this conversation again as I'll not be watching any more of these types of interviews. Maybe they're just trying to bore everyone and are trying to make Peterson go away. It's not actually a bad tactic in that case.

iptba · 19-08-2018 3:42pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUiG5_GcMyY

An interesting take on male feminists at the end of this. I doubt it is true in every case: I imagine some/many genuinely believe in the positions they have taken.

I do think there are likely more reasons men would try to strive to be higher up one or more hierarchies than women whose attractiveness is less influenced by their position on hierarchies.

iptba · 31-08-2018 1:33am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uoxxvdvjiI

(11 minutes)
I'm not sure about the title: the interviewer seems reasonably calm.

A lot of this is about feminism and the like.

On the question of men historically oppressing women, Peterson says:
"First of all, women aren't that easy to oppress as you might have noticed if you've ever had a relationship with them".

Smegging hell · 05-09-2018 7:18pm

Yet more sense from Dr. Peterson

05-09-2018 7:25pm

(Non)sense?

kunst nugget · 07-09-2018 12:37pm

Smegging hell wrote: »

Yet more sense from Dr. Peterson

Jesus, words fail me…

iptba · 14-09-2018 1:35am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46dWNX0p1PE

He highlights that there are lots of dimensions onto which people fit. But only some of them get highlighted by social justice warriors and the like.

And indeed we can see that with gender quotas but not quotas for lots of other dimensions.

He says women's studies and the like are not methodologically rigourous.

14-09-2018 10:31am

Who are the post modernists and the Marxists?

ancapailldorcha · 14-09-2018 10:41am

Actually, I'd be quite keen on a definition as well for the former.

14-09-2018 11:17am

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Postmodern_theory

It fits.

Especially buffy theory.

kunst nugget · 14-09-2018 11:31am

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Actually, I'd be quite keen on a definition as well for the former.

It's a term that can mean anything to anybody really.

Theorists associated with postmodernism often used the term to mark a new cultural epoch in the West. For philosopher Jean-François Lyotard, the postmodern condition was defined as “incredulity towards metanarratives”; that is, a loss of faith in science and other emancipatory projects within modernity, such as Marxism.

Marxist literary theorist Fredric Jameson famously argued postmodernism was “the cultural logic of late capitalism” (by which he meant post-industrial, post-Fordist, multi-national consumer capitalism).

In his 1982 essay Postmodernism and Consumer Society, Jameson set out the major tropes of postmodern culture.

These included, to paraphrase: the substitution of pastiche for the satirical impulse of parody; a predilection for nostalgia; and a fixation on the perpetual present.

In Jameson’s pessimistic analysis, the loss of historical temporality and depth associated with postmodernism was akin to the world of the schizophrenic.

Postmodernism can also be a critical project, revealing the cultural constructions we designate as truth and opening up a variety of repressed other histories of modernity. Such as those of women, homosexuals and the colonised.

The modernist canon itself is revealed as patriarchal and racist, dominated by white heterosexual men. As a result, one of the most common themes addressed within postmodernism relates to cultural identity.

https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-postmodernism-20791

or

Are nationalism, politics, religion, and war the result of a primitive human mentality? Is truth an illusion? How can Christianity claim primacy or dictate morals? The list of concerns goes on and on especially for those affected by a postmodern philosophy and lifestyle. For some, the questions stem from lost confidence in a corrupt Western world. For others, freedom from traditional authority is the issue. Their concern centers around the West’s continued reliance on ancient and traditional religious morals, nationalism, capitalism, inept political systems, and unwise use and adverse impact of promoting “trade offs” between energy resources and environment, for economic gain.

According to the Postmodern Worldview, the Western world society is an outdated lifestyle disguised under impersonal and faceless bureaucracies. The postmodernist endlessly debates the modernist about the Western society needing to move beyond their primitiveness of ancient traditional thought and practices.

Postmodernism claims to be the successor to the 17th century Enlightenment. For over four centuries, “postmodern thinkers” have promoted and defended a New Age way of conceptualizing and rationalizing human life and progress. Postmodernists are typically atheistic or agnostic while some prefer to follow eastern religion thoughts and practices. Many are naturalist including humanitarians, environmentalists, and philosophers.

They challenge the core religious and capitalistic values of the Western world and seek change for a new age of liberty within a global community. Many prefer to live under a global, non-political government without tribal or national boundaries and one that is sensitive to the socioeconomic equality for all people.

Postmodernists protest Western society’s suppression of equal rights. They believe that the capitalistic economic system lacks equal distribution of goods and salary. While the few rich prosper, the mass populace becomes impoverished. Postmodernists view democratic constitutions as flawed in substance, impossible to uphold, and unfair in principle.

https://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/postmodernism.htm

So, it's either a rejection of modernist narratives like Marxism and the cultural logic of late capitalism or it's the embracing of socialist ideals, equality and cultural identity.

iptba · 13-10-2018 1:57am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cmg4fV5mAKs

I don't know whether the title is suitable but it explores the idea that gender preferences and the like aren't simply socialised

iptba · 30-11-2018 3:06am

(6 minutes)

Jordan Peterson on How Gender Temperament Data is Not a Right-Wing Conspiracy (Oxford Union)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMoOu0L9Y64

30-11-2018 5:23am

Fairly shocking hatchet piece I just came across in the independent...Jesus, you'd expect more from them tbh..

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jordan-peterson-nazi-apologism-lindsey-graham-holocaust-migrant-caravan-mexican-border-tear-gas-a8659001.html?amp

blinding · 30-11-2018 11:05am

iptba wrote: »

(6 minutes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMoOu0L9Y64

The usual brilliance from Jordan Peterson .

Facts and good arguments = His opponents just can’t cope .

All things relating to Jordan Peterson

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