Critique my workout/diet please.

SprostonGreen · 13-05-2008 9:43pm #1

I have a review this Friday at my gym, but this is what I’ve been doing since 7th of April, I intended doing the boards summer fitness,
but a family bereavement on Good Friday meant I started a week late.

It’s been brilliant, I’ve really enjoyed it, havent taken measurements, but am impressed at what I see in the mirror.

Tell us what you think, I’m 34, 5ft 10” male, weigh 72kgs(11 and a quarter stone), my body fat analysis in April said I was down to 17.6%.

I don’t do much cardio, I should but this workout takes up much of my time. This week I’ve set the treadmill to an incline of 12 and walked for 20 mins and the sprinted for 5 mins, I think that has burned a bit of fat.

My goals are to burn that troublesome layer of fat that most 25+ males have and to increase muscle density, especially traps, shoulders and pecs.

Assisted chins:
4 sets of 12 reps - 33kgs

Military press:
4 sets of 12 reps - 17.5kgs - sometime the first set I’ll do 20 kgs and the last 15 kgs

Barbell chest press:
4 sets of 12 reps - 10kgs - I’ve worked up to 20kgs, 15. 15, 10kgs

Leg extension:
4 sets of 12 reps - 15kgs.

Leg press:
4sets of 20 reps - 70kgs

Cable pushdown -
4 sets of 12 reps - 13kgs

Bicep curls:
4 sets of 12 reps
I’ve shaken this one up, I was asked to dumbbell curls at 10kg, 8, 6, 4, but I’ve progressed up in weight and have used the easy barbell, regular barbell and then back to dumbbell. Last Sunday I did, 22.5kg, 17.kg, 15kg and 8kg (this one on dumbbell).

Breakfast:

2 egg omelette, splash of milk, glass of water, sometimes orange juice.

Mid morning:

1 Yoplait natural yoghurt mixed with some porridge.

Lunch:

1 small tin of tuna, handful or sweet corn and extra light mayo.
Sometimes ham and cheese toasted brown bread and coffee.

Mid Afternoon.

Apple, banana, handful or peanunts(not the kp salted type)

Evening meal

Parsnips, red and yellow peppers, green beans and one of the following

Tuna steak
Chicken
Turkey
Spaghetti(whole-wheat) Bolognaise(lean mince with can of tomato, not dolmio)

Supper

Same as evening meal, I make enough for two meals.

I’ve just in the last few days given up sugar, I used to take a half in my tea and I have about 4 cups a day. I don’t eat crisps or burgers, I like Lindt 85% cocoa chocolate, I’m using that as a daily treat.
But biscuits are my downfall, I just flipping love them, but I have to cut them out completely.

tadhg1 · 13-05-2008 10:18pm

i'll presume you to this programme 3-4 times per week

but how often do you do this programme?

amazingemmet · 13-05-2008 10:27pm

SprostonGreen wrote: »

Assisted chins:
4 sets of 12 reps - 33kgs

Military press:
4 sets of 12 reps - 17.5kgs - sometime the first set I’ll do 20 kgs and the last 15 kgs

Barbell chest press:
4 sets of 12 reps - 10kgs - I’ve worked up to 20kgs, 15. 15, 10kgs

Leg extension:
4 sets of 12 reps - 15kgs.

Leg press:
4sets of 20 reps - 70kgs

Cable pushdown -
4 sets of 12 reps - 13kgs

Bicep curls:
4 sets of 12 reps

Swop the leg press for squats 4x10-12

and swop the leg extensions for lunges or bulgarian squats 4x10-12

Try stick to a certain rep range rather then set number of reps, using the same weight. i.e. aim for ten to twelve reps on most so for the first sets 12 will be easy but as you tire you might do 11 next set then ten on the following, etc

Also I'd change the exercise order to
Squat
bench
chins
military press
bulgarians/lunges
pushdowns
curls

as this will put the most demanding exercises first

tadhg1 · 13-05-2008 10:32pm

i don't want to knock you mate, because ur training hard and seeing some results which is great! but i have one or two suggestions

the programme isn't very well balanced, for ever exercise you do, you should also exercise the apposing muscle equaly. for example you do 4x12 chest press which mainly works the pecs but you dont have any exercise (like a seated row) to work the apposing muscles (traps,romboids ect.)

SprostonGreen · 13-05-2008 10:52pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

the programme isn't very well balanced, for ever exercise you do, you should also exercise the apposing muscle equaly. for example you do 4x12 chest press which mainly works the pecs but you dont have any exercise (like a seated row) to work the apposing muscles (traps,romboids ect.)

True there is little back work, but I have now and thrown in some shrugs and I'll ask my instructor about working this in in the review.

SprostonGreen · 13-05-2008 10:53pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

i'll presume you to this programme 3-4 times per week

but how often do you do this programme?

3 times a week, you're right.

Should have said as well, some RAM post workout and creatine before.

tadhg1 · 13-05-2008 11:00pm

try this its more balanced, im goin to split ur programme , P 1 will be "pecs, delts, triceps" P 2 will be "traps, lats, biceps"

Programme 1

chest press (3x10 for them all)
incline chest press
decline chest press
shoulder press
frontal raise
tricep pulldown/ extension
ab crunches (3x20)

Programme 2

seated row (3x10 for all of them)
low row/pulley
bent over row
lat pull down
chin ups (on lat pull down machine just use under hand grip)
bicep curls
Back EXtentions (3x20)

for the legs id suggest cardio 40mins 3 times per week eg (jogging,cycling, sprints) and maybe 2 weeks out of eight to some weight training

weekly brake down

mon tue wed thurs fri sat sun
cardio P1 cardio P2 carido rest rest

any question just ask

SorGan · 13-05-2008 11:08pm

leg press is fine if your deadlifting too, if not id squat,
Leg extensions? throw em away..:)

Cable pushdown, heavy benching and overhead pressing will work your triceps well enough to make cable pushdowns unnecessary.

Bicep curls...swop them for chinups.

example:
bench press
wide grip pullups/assisted pullups or pulldown machine
chin ups (biceps)
squats or (deadlift and leg press)
overhead press (i prefer dumbells)

2 good sets of ten is more than enough for you.
chins..as many as you can till you can tying weights to yourself

1 or 2 heavy sets of 20 for squats

id train the above twice a week only, and only heavy deadlift once.
keep it simple basic and heavy and youll do well.
max time in gym lifting = 45min:)

SorGan · 13-05-2008 11:24pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

try this its more balanced, im goin to split ur programme , P 1 will be "pecs, delts, triceps" P 2 will be "traps, lats, biceps"

Programme 1

chest press (3x10 for them all)
incline chest press
decline chest press
shoulder press
frontal raise
tricep pulldown/ extension
ab crunches (3x20)

Programme 2

seated row (3x10 for all of them)
low row/pulley
bent over row
lat pull down
chin ups (on lat pull down machine just use under hand grip)
bicep curls
Back EXtentions (3x20)

for the legs id suggest cardio 40mins 3 times per week eg (jogging,cycling, sprints) and maybe 2 weeks out of eight to some weight training

weekly brake down

mon tue wed thurs fri sat sun
cardio P1 cardio P2 carido rest rest

any question just ask

sorry mate but that whole program is a disaster from start to finish..

good site for everything workout related here...
http://www.t-nation.com/archives.do?y=2008

SprostonGreen · 13-05-2008 11:28pm

SorGan wrote: »

leg press is fine if your deadlifting too, if not id squat,

I've been thinking about returning to squats.

tadhg1 · 13-05-2008 11:45pm

SorGan wrote: »

sorry mate but that whole program is a from start to finish..

good site for everything workout related here...
http://www.t-nation.com/archives.do?y=2008

ur entiteled to ur opinion i supposed, but ive worked in the fitness industry for 6 years, i work as a personal trainer, and im in damn good shape myself. in my opinion that prograramme is perfect for a male beginner who is looking to loss some bodyfat and put on some muscle.

the programe has structure, is balance, the rep and set range are correct of hypertrophy and the progromme adheres to the principals of fitness.

Please explain why u think its a "disaster"

FunkZ · 13-05-2008 11:58pm

SorGan wrote: »

Leg extensions? throw em away..:)

Just wondering what's wrong with LE? I've heard people speak badly about them on other places as well.

I tried them for the first time last friday, and up around and above my upper knee feel great, I am/was planning to keep doing them.

tadhg1 · 14-05-2008 12:13am

leg extention aren't bad there just limited their wots known as an isolation exercise (they isolate the quads), in comparisin to squats (compound exercise) which also focus on the quads, squats work the glutes, the Iliacus-psoas, and the calfs. you can even factor in core stabity and balance.

to sume up leg extions are not bad, there a useful exercise but they are limited in comparisin to other quad exercises

Will Heffernan · 14-05-2008 1:08am

The diet looks OK...please tell me that you designed the program yourself and it wasn't done by someone that actually gets paid to design programs?

Al_Fernz · 14-05-2008 9:43am

tadhg1 wrote: »

ur entiteled to ur opinion i supposed, but ive worked in the fitness industry for 6 years, i work as a personal trainer, and im in damn good shape myself. in my opinion that prograramme is perfect for a male beginner who is looking to loss some bodyfat and put on some muscle.

the programe has structure, is balance, the rep and set range are correct of hypertrophy and the progromme adheres to the principals of fitness.

Please explain why u think its a "disaster"

for the legs id suggest cardio 40mins 3 times per week eg (jogging,cycling, sprints) and maybe 2 weeks out of eight to some weight training

AFAIK omitting the big lower body compound movements such as squats and deadlifts limits your anabolic potential because these exercises increase testosterone production in the body. To use a well worn cliche "they give you the most bang for your buck"

IMO Amazingemmet's programme is the way to go.

tadhg1 · 14-05-2008 1:09pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

AFAIK omitting the big lower body compound movements such as squats and deadlifts limits your anabolic potential because these exercises increase testosterone production in the body. To use a well worn cliche "they give you the most bang for your buck"

IMO Amazingemmet's programme is the way to go.

i agree that adding in some lower body compound movements would incease ur "anabolic rate" that's why i suggested weight training on the lower body 2 weeks out of 8. but this individual wants to lose body fat (and gain some size)and cardio is the most effective form of exercise for losing body fat. if i was to over prescribe resistance training of the legs this guys legs would be knackered and he would not be able to do 3 cardio sessions (which mainly use the legs) per week. again i didn't want to leave resistance training uot all together thats why i suggested "weight training of the legs" 2 weeks out of 8.

Malteaser! · 14-05-2008 1:37pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

i agree that adding in some lower body compound movements would incease ur "anabolic rate" that's why i suggested weight training on the lower body 2 weeks out of 8. but this individual wants to lose body fat (and gain some size)and cardio is the most effective form of exercise for losing body fat. if i was to over prescribe resistance training of the legs this guys legs would be knackered and he would not be able to do 3 cardio sessions (which mainly use the legs) per week. again i didn't want to leave resistance training uot all together thats why i suggested "weight training of the legs" 2 weeks out of 8.

Resistance training is more effective at burning fat than cardio is.

Cardio may burn more calories while you're actually in the gym doing it but when you stop so does the calorie burning. The beauty of resistance training is that you actually continue to burn calories in the 24-48 hour period AFTER you’ve been in the gym too.

Al_Fernz · 14-05-2008 1:47pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

i agree that adding in some lower body compound movements would incease ur "anabolic rate"

Allowing for greater hypertrophy and increased muscle mass. Shouldn't this lead to a higher BMR? Since, the OP is building muscle shouldn't that mean that, diet permitting they would lose bodyfat to compensate? Now that sounds far more conjuicive to the OP's goals

That's why i suggested weight training on the lower body 2 weeks out of 8

Seems very haphazard and more likely to confuse the OP. IMO your perscribed routine is way too imbalanced.

cardio is the most effective form of exercise for losing body fat.

Can you qualify this statement please?

if i was to over prescribe resistance training of the legs this guys legs would be knackered and he would not be able to do 3 cardio sessions (which mainly use the legs) per week. again i didn't want to leave resistance training uot all together thats why i suggested "weight training of the legs" 2 weeks out of 8.

Of course the OP would be tired, but that the whole point of training. You train then adapt and thats what makes us stronger and fitter.

Leaving that aside it would always be possible for the OP to have a rest day if their legs were too sore.

IMO disregarding the benefits of regularly performing heavy compound exercises is not the most efficient way for the OP to achieve their goal.

SprostonGreen · 14-05-2008 2:04pm

Will Heffernan wrote: »

The diet looks OK...please tell me that you designed the program yourself and it wasn't done by someone that actually gets paid to design programs?

The instructor in my gym designed it, I'm guessing this is a loaded question and you dont rate it.:pac:

jessconr · 14-05-2008 3:03pm

Tadhg1 i privite messages you. would you mind having a look.

Thanks

amazingemmet · 14-05-2008 4:27pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

try this its more balanced, im goin to split ur programme , P 1 will be "pecs, delts, triceps" P 2 will be "traps, lats, biceps"

Programme 1

chest press (3x10 for them all)
incline chest press
decline chest press
shoulder press
frontal raise
tricep pulldown/ extension
ab crunches (3x20)

Programme 2

seated row (3x10 for all of them)
low row/pulley
bent over row
lat pull down
chin ups (on lat pull down machine just use under hand grip)
bicep curls
Back EXtentions (3x20)

for the legs id suggest cardio 40mins 3 times per week eg (jogging,cycling, sprints) and maybe 2 weeks out of eight to some weight training

weekly brake down

mon tue wed thurs fri sat sun
cardio P1 cardio P2 carido rest rest

any question just ask

Eh that program is no where near balanced. Not even close

SorGan · 14-05-2008 7:03pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

ur entiteled to ur opinion i supposed, but ive worked in the fitness industry for 6 years, i work as a personal trainer, and im in damn good shape myself. in my opinion that prograramme is perfect for a male beginner who is looking to loss some bodyfat and put on some muscle.

the programe has structure, is balance, the rep and set range are correct of hypertrophy and the progromme adheres to the principals of fitness.

Please explain why u think its a "disaster"

perfect? i cannot agree less.
not to belittle any exp you have but..

zero lower body work is imo a major oversight.

chest press (3x10 for them all)
incline chest press
decline chest press

its overkill for a beginner to hit the chest in these 3 exercises, and as many argue unnecessary for most lifters.

frontal raise

im assuming by this you mean a front delt exercise...front delts get hit very hard by benching alone..

seated row (3x10 for all of them)
low row/pulley
bent over row

bent over row would suffice here alone.as the other two work (pretty much) the same muscle

chin ups (on lat pull down machine just use under hand grip)
bicep curls

both working the same muscle

tricep pulldown/ extension

not needed with all the benching and shoulder press.

hey you asked

SorGan · 14-05-2008 7:09pm

a slightly chubby friend of mine lost 5 stone last year by just running on a treadmill twice a week, and squat,bench press,pulldown.
he kept it simple and thought about what he could keep up long term and is doing well.:)

SorGan · 14-05-2008 7:17pm

FunkZ wrote: »

Just wondering what's wrong with LE? I've heard people speak badly about them on other places as well.

I tried them for the first time last friday, and up around and above my upper knee feel great, I am/was planning to keep doing them.

there are simply far superior exercises that you will see much more benefit from that leg ext.
i sumo deadlift and leg press myself, ive never been comfortable squatting,:)

tadhg1 · 15-05-2008 10:55pm

Malteaser! wrote: »

Cardio may burn more calories while you're actually in the gym doing it

yes cardio burns more cals

Malteaser! wrote: »

but when you stop so does the calorie burning.

i dont not where you read that but its completely un true

Malteaser! wrote: »

The beauty of resistance training is that you actually continue to burn
calories in the 24-48 hour period AFTER you’ve been in the gym too.

cardio like resistance training also creates the "after burn effect", u could argue that resistance training will increase your lean mass and there for increase you bmr which is true but at the end of the day if you do an intense run for an hour you will burn more cals during and as a result of the "atfer burn effect" than if you had have done an hour of equaly intense resistance training session (also including cals burned during and as a result of the "atfer burn effect")

Malteaser! · 15-05-2008 11:26pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

yes cardio burns more cals

i dont not where you read that but its completely un true

cardio like resistance training also creates the "after burn effect", u could argue that resistance training will increase your lean mass and there for increase you bmr which is true but at the end of the day if you do an intense run for an hour you will burn more cals during and as a result of the "atfer burn effect" than if you had have done an hour of equaly intense resistance training session (also including cals burned during and as a result of the "atfer burn effect")

The 'after burn effect' DOES NOT happen with steady state low intensity cardio (which is what you seem to be suggesting?). It does happen to an extent with HIIT, but still to a lesser extent than with resistance training. If you're suggesting someone goes on a long hard run (as opposed to a long relatively easy one) then say hello to catabolism and a lowered BMR.

It'd be nice if you could back up your claims with some figures, they're some pretty bold and unusual claims that you're making

When it comes down to it, this guy's looking to improve his appearance. Ignoring TEMPORARY quick fixes and looking at the long term picture, what is going to be the most effective method? I would suggest it is starting resistance training now. Training his legs with a lot of devotion since this will increase his overall muscle mass and improve his appearance AND help him to shift any remaining fat later on since his BMR is going to be higher.

Dieting and then attempting to build muscle is a disastrous idea imo. When trying to build muscle you need a kcal surpluses, unless you manage to strike the perfect balance you're going to gain some fat. Which will probably need to be dieted off later. So why bother dieting, bulking and dieting when better results could be achieved through just concentrating on building some muscle, doing a small amount of LIT cardio to improve CV conditions and keep BF% in check (since it's gonna be hard to recover from HIIT if training legs hard) and THEN once all the ground work is laid down... start to diet.
At this stage the diet should be even more successful than it would have been initially since his body will be a veritable fat burning machine. He'll burn more kcals while at rest AND while training.

I still can't believe you suggested only training legs 2 out of 8 weeks. Heavy squats are the most anabolic thing you can do in the gym. And if you're doing them for high reps they can be incredibly metabolicaly demanding too.

tadhg1 · 15-05-2008 11:30pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

Seems very haphazard and more likely to confuse the OP. IMO your perscribed routine is way too imbalanced.

so when and how should i prescribe cardio, imo the op doesnt come across as wanting to train like a body builder, or look like a body builder (im not saying theres amything wrong with body building i do it myself) so unless he says that he want to bodybuild spacificly, i prescribe 3 cardio session per week and 2 weeks out of 8 or 1 of 4 or 4 weeks out of 12ect to to some resistance on the legs as not to totaly neglect this aspect of training

"imbalanced" "haphazard"???? lol if you look at the programme like an over view of 4 weeks the op would be doing 9 cardio session 11 resistance session, 4 of of the 11 resistance session on the chest shoulder and triceps and 4 of the 11 resistance session on the traps,lats, biceps. 9 cardio session which odds are is ging to be running, jogging, or cycling which mainly uses the legs so his legs are getting a good work out aswell im not neglect the legs in amy way but just to be safe i prescribe 3 resistance training session for the legs, so 25% of his session involving the leg are resistance focused.

seems balanced to me!

Al_Fernz wrote: »

Of course the OP would be tired, but that the whole point of training. You train then adapt and thats what makes us stronger and fitter.
Leaving that aside it would always be possible for the OP to have a rest day if their legs were too sore.

i don't want to over train the guy and if you look a the programme i gave him 48hrs rest befor he would train his legs again

Al_Fernz wrote: »

IMO disregarding the benefits of regularly performing heavy compound exercises is not the most efficient way for the OP to achieve their goal.

imo 1 to 4 ratio for resistance training to cardio traing involving the legs is sutable for this individual

Malteaser! · 15-05-2008 11:35pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

so when and how should i prescribe cardio, imo the op doesnt come across as wanting to train like a body builder, or look like a body builder (im not saying theres amything wrong with body building i do it myself) so unless he says that he want to bodybuild spacificly, i prescribe 3 cardio session per week and 2 weeks out of 8 or 1 of 4 or 4 weeks out of 12ect to to some resistance on the legs as not to totaly neglect this aspect of training

Just on this point, do you really think that just by doing resistance training you're training like a bodybuilder or that you're actually gonna end up looking like one??

Hanley · 15-05-2008 11:36pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

so when and how should i prescribe cardio, imo the op doesnt come across as wanting to train like a body builder, or look like a body builder (im not saying theres amything wrong with body building i do it myself) so unless he says that he want to bodybuild spacificly, i prescribe 3 cardio session per week and 2 weeks out of 8 or 1 of 4 or 4 weeks out of 12ect to to some resistance on the legs as not to totaly neglect this aspect of training

"imbalanced" "haphazard"???? lol if you look at the programme like an over view of 4 weeks the op would be doing 9 cardio session 11 resistance session, 4 of of the 11 resistance session on the chest shoulder and triceps and 4 of the 11 resistance session on the traps,lats, biceps. 9 cardio session which odds are is ging to be running, jogging, or cycling which mainly uses the legs so his legs are getting a good work out aswell im not neglect the legs in amy way but just to be safe i prescribe 3 resistance training session for the legs, so 25% of his session involving the leg are resistance focused.

seems balanced to me!

Unless he is COMPLETEY untrained, running, jogging cycling etc will do absolutely fcuk all for his leg development.

It is completely unbalanced because the upper body is trained far more often than the lower. For starters.

i don't want to over train the guy and if you look a the programme i gave him 48hrs rest befor he would train his legs again

Overtraining? Do you even know what that is???

imo 1 to 4 ratio for resistance training to cardio traing involving the legs is sutable for this individual

Based on?

Hanley · 15-05-2008 11:42pm

Malteaser! wrote: »

Just on this point, do you really think that just by doing resistance training you're training like a bodybuilder or that you're actually gonna end up looking like one??

Good point actually. I meant to say something on that...

If someone's looking to build muscle and improve their appearance (like the OP), as opposed to someone training for pure strength or sporting performance, they SHOULD be training like a bodybuilder. Ya know... the guys with a goal of building more muscle and reducing bodyfat.

donstavros · 15-05-2008 11:45pm

Looks like you need to start putting on weight.... bulk up on red meat and pints. This can then be easily turned into muscle with a few visits to the gym.

Be a man.

unreggd · 16-05-2008 12:00am

donstavros wrote: »

Looks like you need to start putting on weight.... bulk up on red meat and pints. This can then be easily turned into muscle with a few visits to the gym.

Be a man.

you couldnt be more wrong!

Being fatter before you start training doesnt make it easier

You need a protein rich diet, and consistent training, at the same time

tadhg1 · 16-05-2008 12:17am

Malteaser! wrote: »

The 'after burn effect' DOES NOT happen with steady state low intensity cardio (which is what you seem to be suggesting?). It does happen to an extent with HIIT, but still to a lesser extent than with resistance training. If you're suggesting someone goes on a long hard run (as opposed to a long relatively easy one) then say hello to catabolism and a lowered BMR.

i was refering from mod to intense thats why i said "intense run verse intense weight training session" and about the catabolic thing this doesn't happen for 80-90mins according to "the complete guide to sport nutition" but i'll admit that ive read artical that say it happens after 60mins, i'll have a look round the house for the book and get u the quote

Malteaser! wrote: »

It'd be nice if you could back up your claims with some figures, they're some pretty bold and unusual claims that you're making

where are ur "figures" but like i said above i'll have a look round the house for the ol' text books and get u the quotes

Malteaser! wrote: »

When it comes down to it, this guy's looking to improve his appearance. Ignoring TEMPORARY quick fixes and looking at the long term picture, what is going to be the most effective method? I would suggest it is starting resistance training now. Training his legs with a lot of devotion since this will increase his overall muscle mass and improve his appearance AND help him to shift any remaining fat later on since his BMR is going to be higher.

his health takes priority over his apperence (not to say that his apperence won't improve on my programme also) hes gotta do some cardio

Malteaser! wrote: »

So why bother dieting, bulking and dieting when better results could be achieved through just concentrating on building some muscle, doing a small amount of LIT cardio to improve CV conditions and keep BF% in check (since it's gonna be hard to recover from HIIT if training legs hard) and THEN once all the ground work is laid down... start to diet.

i suppose you have to ask the op priorities size, strenght, speed,stamina ect so if ur reading this op please do so,

Malteaser! wrote: »

I still can't believe you suggested only training legs 2 out of 8 weeks. Heavy squats are the most anabolic thing you can do in the gym. And if you're doing them for high reps they can be incredibly metabolicaly demanding too.

i think you may have taken me up wrong wher when i said 2 weeks out of 8, i said resistance of the legs 2 weeks out of 8 and the other 6 weeks out of 8 he'd br focusing on more on carido running cycling ect which is where he would be get his leg training during those weeks hope this clarifies.

well its 12.15am and im up for work in the morning so i'll leave it there, nice chatin' to ya lads i'll get back to ya's over the weekend

Al_Fernz · 16-05-2008 9:53am

8 weeks
x8 chest/tri/delt days
x8 back/trap/bi days
x2 leg days

8>2 = a routine that isn't balanced.

Doing cardio will not provide the same stimulus for muscular development as weight training. Therefore, trying to say that jogging and cycling compensate for the lack of leg training is not appropriate.

his health takes priority over his apperence (not to say that his apperence won't improve on my programme also) hes gotta do some cardio

I'm confused. Was anything else that was recommended detrimental to his overall health?

Roper · 16-05-2008 10:14am

donstavros wrote: »

Looks like you need to start putting on weight.... bulk up on red meat and pints. This can then be easily turned into muscle with a few visits to the gym.

Be a man.

I agree with this assesment more than most of the other stuff written on this thread. As an add on, I'd say also come home each evening and eat/drink a litre of whipped cream. For cardio, before you eat the red meat, rub it on yourself and run through a guard dog compound. If one of them catches you, wrestle it until one of you is dead, or gives up, which should be the same thing. Small cars can be used for leg development- you should be able to push a mini at first, and then work on to larger automobiles. The handbrakes should be on, and you DO NOT ask the owners permission first. If they come out complaining, show them your dog bites and pretend to foam at the mouth, then cheese it before the rozzers/animal welfare come. To develop phenomenal arm strength, masturbate furiously- FURIOUSLY- at least 6 times a day, and don't go swapping arms. One phenomenally developed arm is much better than two average ones. When the other one starts to wither, let it- that's Darwinism of the body, the strong arm survives.

After that, you will have many concubines.

Personally, I think that's as good as most of the advice you've been given thus far. BUt in all seriousness, everything you need to get strong is here www.startingstrength.net and there are lots of good ideas for weight loss here http://www.simplefit.org/. Reading this topic will only confuse most people, but I think from reading those two sites you'll be able to sort the wheat from the chaff.

TKD SC · 16-05-2008 11:59am

great post

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 1:18pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

8 weeks
x8 chest/tri/delt days
x8 back/trap/bi days
x2 leg days

8>2 = a routine that isn't balanced.
?

what ur trying to prepose is that the guys programme would look more balanced like this

x8 resistance training of chest/tri/delt days
x8 resistance training of back/trap/bi days
x8 resistance training of leg days

this is resistance training 100% and cardio 0% of the time this is not the training programme of the well rounded individual,

the above programe would be more suit toward someone who's priorities are size or strength (and i'd split it differently if it was) and again is you read the op this guy is a beginner looking to put on some lean mass and lose some bodyfat.

Al_Fernz wrote: »

Doing cardio will not provide the same stimulus for muscular development as weight training. Therefore, trying to say that jogging and cycling compensate for the lack of leg training is not appropriate.

i agree that cradio eg running will not provide the same stimulus as resistance training in terms of size or strenght. but cardio eg running does provide a good work out of the leg muscles improving primarily speed, stamina and to a lesser extent size and strenght. all exercise have the strenghts and weaknesses.

resistance training will not provide the same stimulus of the ops heart and lungs that cardio will, so for this guy to be well round im gonna have to give him cardio which means if his doing cardio he's most likely gonna be doing running, jogging, cycling each cardio session will now also count as a leg training session because after the cardio session the muscles of legs will have worked hard and be fatigued which means he wont be able to do as many resistance training session on the legs (i'm not trying to that resistance training provides no stimulus of the heart just that cardio provides more of a stimulus)

Al_Fernz wrote: »

I'm confused. Was anything else that was recommended detrimental to his overall health?

most on the forum are saying the programme needs more resistane traing of the leg. if i give more resistance to the legs im gonna have to take away form the cardio. and not doing enough cardio could be detremental to his health. but in reality not trying to say "if the guy doesn't go running 3 times a week he will drop dead" that would be dramatic.

Hanley · 17-05-2008 2:31pm

Why can't he do cardio AND train legs??

Al_Fernz · 17-05-2008 2:43pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

what ur trying to prepose is that the guys programme would look more balanced like this

x8 resistance training of chest/tri/delt days
x8 resistance training of back/trap/bi days
x8 resistance training of leg days

I propose is that the OP consider a weight training routine that provides equal growth stimulus to all body parts. I don't agree with the routine you provide because it is likely to create muscular imbalances.

this is resistance training 100% and cardio 0% of the time this is not the training programme of the well rounded individual,

Did I say the OP should drop cardio? I think your mixing up the issues here.

the above programe would be more suit toward someone who's priorities are size or strength (and i'd split it differently if it was) and again is you read the op this guy is a beginner looking to put on some lean mass and lose some bodyfat.

I never recommended that the OP follow an amended form of your routine. Its a joke - for all the reasons outlined earlier in this thread.

i agree that cradio eg running will not provide the same stimulus as resistance training in terms of size or strenght.

Yes and relying on it to produce the same muscular development as weight training is likely to leave an individual with muscle imbalances, increasing the risk of injury.

but cardio eg running does provide a good work out of the leg muscles improving primarily speed, stamina and to a lesser extent size and strenght. all exercise have the strenghts and weaknesses.

There's more forms of cardio than running and cycling. Boxing, rowing, skipping and swimming all use upper body muscles. Cardio doesn't always have to be leg intensive. Cardio exercise is exactly what it's name suggests -work for the heart and circulatory system. Its a poor substitute to weight training for any individual that wants to build muscle.

Would you be able to provide any reference to back up your claim that cardio is better for fat loss than weight training please?

SorGan · 17-05-2008 2:54pm

Hanley wrote: »

Why can't he do cardio AND train legs??

no reason he cant really.:)

...but the millions doing it around the world might need to bow to the theory that you just cant.

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 3:19pm

before for i start, i know, u never work exclusivly in one energy system. but in terms of cardio/aerobic exercise "anaerobic exercise use only glycogen, where as aerobic exercise uses both glycogen and fat," quote from "the complete guide to sports nutrition"

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 3:22pm

Hanley wrote: »

Why can't he do cardio AND train legs??

he is training cardio and doing his legs

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 3:53pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

I propose is that the OP consider a weight training routine that provides equal growth stimulus to all body parts. I don't agree with the routine you provide because it is likely to create muscular imbalances.

Did I say the OP should drop cardio? I think your mixing up the issues here.

I never recommended that the OP follow an amended form of your routine. Its a joke - for all the reasons outlined earlier in this thread.

Yes and relying on it to produce the same muscular development as weight training is likely to leave an individual with muscle imbalances, increasing the risk of injury.

There's more forms of cardio than running and cycling. Boxing, rowing, skipping and swimming all use upper body muscles. Cardio doesn't always have to be leg intensive. Cardio exercise is exactly what it's name suggests -work for the heart and circulatory system. Its a poor substitute to weight training for any individual that wants to build muscle.

Would you be able to provide any reference to back up your claim that cardio is better for fat loss than weight training please?

ur right boxing swimming ect are forms of cardio that work the upper body but from my experence they can be a bit inpractical , boxing.....most gyms don't have bags and alot of ppl fell quite self contious when boxing , swimming some clients can't swim, most pools are heated and when swimming in them u become fatuged very fast because of the heat and its hard to get a good work out, you could argue well then swim in the sea but if i was training this guy i won't recomend training in the sea because of saftey issue because if he drown and i was the guy who told him to go swimming in the sea, i be up **** creek with out a paddle, lol, skiping and rowing are more total body as apposed just upper

Hanley · 17-05-2008 3:59pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

he is training cardio and doing his legs

Jesus.

Why can't he do cardio and train his legs with resistance training EVERY WEEK??

SorGan · 17-05-2008 4:03pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

he is training cardio and doing his legs

not enough by far.

ur right boxing swimming ect are forms of cardio that work the upper body

its no more just upperbody than running is just legs...

Al_Fernz · 17-05-2008 4:56pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

before for i start, i know, u never work exclusivly in one energy system. but in terms of cardio/aerobic exercise "anaerobic exercise use only glycogen, where as aerobic exercise uses both glycogen and fat," quote from "the complete guide to sports nutrition"

That quote doesn't take into account the effects that the activities have on BMR's after they are performed. This "after-burn" effect was discussed before.

If you are to follow that quote then you could argue that anaerobic activity/weight training would not lead to any fat loss because you only expend glycogen - which is absolute rubbish.

Al_Fernz · 17-05-2008 5:18pm

SorGan wrote: »

its no more just upperbody than running is just legs...

Just to clarify - I wasn't saying that doing cardio activity that incorporates the upper body is a sufficient substitute for weightlifting. I was saying cardio does not imply a leg intensive activity.

tadhg1- doing less than an hour of cardio the day after weightlifting is not likely to lead to overtraining.

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 5:59pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

That quote doesn't take into account the effects that the activities have on BMR's after they are performed. This "after-burn" effect was discussed before.

If you are to follow that quote then you could argue that anaerobic activity/weight training would not lead to any fat loss because you only expend glycogen - which is absolute rubbish.

i never said anaerobic exercise does not burn fat (that why i said u never realy train exclsively in one energy system) i just said that cardio/aerobic is more effecticent at burning fat

cardio seems to utilize fat during exercise more so than anerobic exercise does , and they both have an after burn effect

hypothetically....... if you had a guy come up to you asking of fatloss and you could only chose to give him cardio or resistance, which would you precribe????

and dont say i'd give him both. im talking about a hypothetical situation.

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 6:07pm

Al_Fernz wrote: »

tadhg1- doing less than an hour of cardio the day after weightlifting is not likely to lead to overtraining.

difine "less than an hour" but i'll take it as 40 mins + weight training sessioni think is to much for a beginner, if you did one straight after the other i would be conserned about catabolism and if you split it say cardio in the morning and weights in the evening, this just does not suit most clients lifestyles, which mean they'd be less likey to keep at it.

amazingemmet · 17-05-2008 6:40pm

tadhg1 wrote: »

i never said anaerobic exercise does not burn fat (that why i said u never realy train exclsively in one energy system) i just said that cardio/aerobic is more effecticent at burning fat

cardio seems to utilize fat during exercise more so than anerobic exercise does , and they both have an after burn effect

hypothetically....... if you had a guy come up to you asking of fatloss and you could only chose to give him cardio or resistance, which would you precribe????

and dont say i'd give him both. im talking about a hypothetical situation.

I know that wasn't addressed to me but I'd give him resistance type training.

There was a study posted here quite recently, i can't seem to find it but I'm sure some who mgith remember will find it for me (nudge nudge) were they compared resistance type training to cardio type training and over the ten weeks the cardio type group were burning 4000cals during their training week while the resistance type group were burning 2000cals during their training week and a control group on the the same isocalorific diet. Now over the ten weeks of the study the control group lost an average of 1lb, the aerobic group 3-7lbs and the resistance type group lost between 15-20lbs. This is all on the same diet btw and the cardio group burnt twice the amount of calories then the other group.

Also tadgh1 any before and after pictures of these clients you keep speaking about?

tadhg1 · 17-05-2008 6:48pm

amazingemmet wrote: »

I know that wasn't addressed to me but I'd give him resistance type training.

Also tadgh1 any before and after pictures of these clients you keep speaking about?

do u realy expect me to put pics of clients up on the internet...come on now ur having a laugh!

Critique my workout/diet please.

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