Hotel Workers - Rock bottom pay

LuasSimon · 19-07-2019 8:51am #1

Visiting hotels regularly for work I always knew hotel workers were not on good money but two instances this week really brought it home to me . Firstly a receptionist I met who has worked 3-4 years in a hotel informs me there are on 22K per annum which I found amazingly poor for the hours and whats expected and living in Dublin .
In another hotel two front of house staff id to deal with both looked as if they hadn’t a washer , whilst they were dressed clean etc the cloths and shoes they were wearing looked as if they were one wear from their toes coming out through them .all of these staff I met were Irish .

It would appear that if you want a life of minimum wage or 10 cent per hour over minimum wage the hotel industry is for you . I’m not sure how well the hotel industry is doing but prices per night in Dublin surely deserve better than staff going round half hungry . Many Irish probably live with parents whilst others sleep 3 or 4 to a room . What real future have these people ? Full employment is masking a huge amount of workers earning just over the minimum wage .

punisher5112 · 19-07-2019 8:53am

LuasSimon wrote: »

Visiting hotels regularly for work I always knew hotel workers were not on good money but two instances this week really brought it home to me . Firstly a receptionist I met who has worked 3-4 years in a hotel informs me there are on 22K per annum which I found amazingly poor for the hours and whats expected and living in Dublin .
In another hotel two front of house staff id to deal with both looked as if they hadn’t a washer , whilst they were dressed clean etc the cloths and shoes they were wearing looked as if they were one wear from their toes coming out through them .all of these staff I met were Irish .

It would appear that if you want a life of minimum wage or 10 cent per hour over minimum wage the hotel industry is for you . I’m not sure how well the hotel industry is doing but prices per night in Dublin surely deserve better than staff going round half hungry . Many Irish probably live with parents whilst others sleep 3 or 4 to a room . What real future have these people ? Full employment is masking a huge amount of workers earning just over the minimum wage .

Hotels are absolutely milking it... All I hear is the vat increase as they had it previously cut for years.

They really should look after their staff.

Del2005 · 19-07-2019 8:58am

Plenty of industries pay minimum wages, the person delivering to most premises and business earns less than someone packing shelves in a supermarket.

If you want to pay people more then you need to pay more, are you willing to pay more?

punisher5112 · 19-07-2019 9:00am

Del2005 wrote: »

Plenty of industries pay minimum wages, the person delivering to most premises and business earns less than someone packing shelves in a supermarket.

If you want to pay people more then you need to pay more, are you willing to pay more?

Most of these businesses are absolutely rolling in it and exploiting people.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 19-07-2019 9:02am

Del2005 wrote: »

Plenty of industries pay minimum wages, the person delivering to most premises and business earns less than someone packing shelves in a supermarket.

If you want to pay people more then you need to pay more, are you willing to pay more?

This is a nonsense argument. Economically illiterate nonsense but always trotted out. The Hotels that survived a few years ago on low occupancy rates and 80€ rooms are now filled up to 100% and 200€ a night. They clearly have room to pay more to staff by eating into profits.

whisky_galore · 19-07-2019 9:11am

You would wonder how cleaners, cooks and general hotel staff manage to afford to live in Dublin on the wages they get when the average industrial worker is struggling or priced out.

Wanderer78 · 19-07-2019 9:15am

whisky_galore wrote:

You would wonder how cleaners, cooks and general hotel staff manage to afford to live in Dublin on the wages they get when the average industrial worker is struggling or priced out.

Many of them probably don't, they're probably commuting, some of them long distances

whiskeyman · 19-07-2019 9:17am

whisky_galore wrote: »

You would wonder how cleaners, cooks and general hotel staff manage to afford to live in Dublin on the wages they get when the average industrial worker is struggling or priced out.

Many simply can't.
Or you've probably seen the mad photos of 6 or 8 bunks in a room.
Others have already said but there's many earning min wage (and below!) in this 'booming' economy and greed is driving it as usual.

Many companies sign up for things like the 'living wage' bit in reality they hire in contractors to do their lowly paid tasks and they can take false credit.

LuasSimon · 19-07-2019 9:18am

Del2005 wrote: »

Plenty of industries pay minimum wages, the person delivering to most premises and business earns less than someone packing shelves in a supermarket.

If you want to pay people more then you need to pay more, are you willing to pay more?

Very cold response ? ... I think many of these hotels could pay their staff a bit more to help their frugal existence and still make plenty !

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 9:18am

The hotel industry has always been exploitative if it's workforce. There is a real shortage of workers in the industry now. The problem is though the employers refuse to accept the fact that long/unsocial hours and low pay are an issue.

LuasSimon · 19-07-2019 9:19am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Many of them probably don't, they're probably commuting, some of them long distances

They probably can’t afford the rail tickets sadly

Mad_maxx · 19-07-2019 9:19am

whisky_galore wrote: »

You would wonder how cleaners, cooks and general hotel staff manage to afford to live in Dublin on the wages they get when the average industrial worker is struggling or priced out.

Mostly foreign and living six to a two bed apartment

pgj2015 · 19-07-2019 9:28am

I remember watching that des bishop work experience show where he worked different mimimum wage jobs. he was working in a nice hotel in dublin as a porter and you should have seen the vacuum cleaner the staff had to use, it kept falling apart on the staff, the hotel owners too tight to buy a proper one, it disgusted me.

topper75 · 19-07-2019 9:28am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

This is a nonsense argument. Economically illiterate nonsense but always trotted out. The Hotels that survived a few years ago on low occupancy rates and 80€ rooms are now filled up to 100% and 200€ a night. They clearly have room to pay more to staff by eating into profits.

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

Wanderer78 · 19-07-2019 9:34am

topper75 wrote:

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

Our educational system is inadequate and fails to deal with complex issues such as learning disabilities etc, it's a one size fits all, unfortunately reality tells us, we ain't all the same, but we have poorly reacted to this knowledge, this can leave, a fairly substantial amount of people out of the system, resulting in poor employment options.

Then there's the cost of education, free education you say, I think not!

19-07-2019 9:37am

The answer is obviously minimum wage + a decent dividend to the workers once a year, based on the business overall profits of the year.

But that's probably too close to communism for some members here.

Bigbagofcans · 19-07-2019 9:39am

They should have a minimum wage for the hospitality sector. These people work harder than employees in most other sectors.

Always Tired · 19-07-2019 9:59am

Working in hotels, some of the perks include: Total disregard for the working time act especially as regards rest periods between shifts. Complain about that (or anything) and goodbye hours. One tried to take till shortages out of staff's wages, when they found out they couldn't do that they tried to bully us into paying cash out of our pockets.

Best job ever: I got hired as bar staff and my first week I didnt pour one pint I was made to move furniture in and out of rooms that were being painted, with no proper equipment like trolleys or any mention of manual handling, with 2 guys who couldn't speak English, it was a good few floors up, roasting summer day and full of paint fumes in the rooms.

The corporate structure: typically one bigwig Irish manager and the rest eastern europeans. He'll try to tell the others to speak English as a rule but when all the managers under him/her and most of the ordinary staff are from Eastern Europe inevitably they just chatter away in their own language. and I don't blame them for that but it is a bit frustrating to feel excluded like an outsider in your own country. Usually once you get to know them theyre sound and will teach you some foreign curse words or you pick them up anyway because it's the word they say by far the most.

Always Tired · 19-07-2019 10:12am

The highlight of your shift usually includes smoking in some dingy loading area full of rubbish and bottles to be recycled, if youre lucky you might find a crate or keg to sit on but most of the time nothing you can sit on is dry.

Even if you don't smoke you'll go out with the smokers to chat and stare at your hideous black shoes that are totally falling apart but the thought of having to buy new ugly ones just for your crap hotel job is sickening when it's basically costing you a full days wages. And if you buy cheap ones your feet will be destroyed. Some workers will swear by cheap black trousers from Penneys but they will fall apart easy too. If they give you a uniform it will be some unflattering tunic looking thing and an apron to wear around your waist. You'll get filthy so in addition to the long hours you get to spend a lot of your free time in between shifts laundering your work clothes, though being honest you probably will wear the trousers a few times before washing.

You will get fed but it can be hit or miss, often the staff meal were just extra wedding plates that were sitting for ages and all dry and not nice. Thought it was kinda weird they fed us the food that the people whose wedding it was had paid for but when there was salmon I enjoyed it.

Punters will proclaim that being a resident means they have the right to get served alcohol until sunrise, you could often be still finishing up a nights work while the chefs are coming into start the breakfast.

Tips are much much rarer than they should be. The biggest tours that come the most regularly are basically being coached or told that you dont have to, the Germans especially are the worst, they rarely give anything and when they do its something ridiculous like less than a euro. Even the Americans who would normally tip well are told they dont have to. If these big groups tipped just 2 quid each it would make a huge difference to the staff but its just not gonna happen and then we have this silly attitude in Ireland that you have to refuse tips 2 or 3 times that whole song and dance is so daft it's not rude to accept a tip!

The worst thing is, up where I live there aren't any jobs other than hotels. But I'll never go back to that. Nope. Not worth it.

fryup · 19-07-2019 10:24am

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

They should have a minimum wage for the hospitality sector. These people work harder than employees in most other sectors.

but doesn't the minimum wage cover all sectors of employment?

Mrs OBumble · 19-07-2019 10:37am

whisky_galore wrote: »

You would wonder how cleaners, cooks and general hotel staff manage to afford to live in Dublin on the wages they get when the average industrial worker is struggling or priced out.

The same way they ever have: social housing.

the beer revolu · 19-07-2019 10:39am

Redsky121 wrote: »

If you're boss offered you a salary of €x or €x+1 which woul you choose?

The whole point of a business is to make as much profit as they can, why would they pay staff more than they need to?

Perhaps, because they value the work they do, don't want them to leave and have a sense of morality regarding low wages?

LuasSimon · 19-07-2019 10:51am

Redsky121 wrote: »

If you're boss offered you a salary of €x or €x+1 which woul you choose?

The whole point of a business is to make as much profit as they can, why would they pay staff more than they need to?

Are you Donald Trump by any chance , I’d prefer to make a bit less profit per annum and treat my staff in a Christian manner that there not going round half hungry with their toes coming out through their shoes .

Sky King · 19-07-2019 10:55am

Great idea, lets pay some flunkie who failed their inter cert and answers phones all day the same amount as someone who worked and got a qualification.

Bigbagofcans · 19-07-2019 10:56am

fryup wrote: »

but doesn't the minimum wage cover all sectors of employment?

It does. But, some sectors should have higher minimum wages than others IMO.

Minimum wage is €9.80 per hour. Living wage is €12.30 per hour.

Sardonicat · 19-07-2019 11:05am

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

What utter insulting hogwash. You do realise that most front of house hotel staff have studied 'Tourism' or related to degree level, don't you? It's often stated as a requirement for reception staff for the 4 and 5 star hotels. My niece did this. She has an Honours Degree in the field and was working in a 5 star as a receptionist at just above minimum wage! She quit the industry (which she loved) because if the sh1t pay . She emigrated and is now in a great job in a totally unrelated field for a company that appreciates her education and work ethic.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 11:16am

Redsky121 wrote:

Why is it immoral to pay the minimum wage?

If one has no moral compass, of course you wouldn't find it immoral. That would be my thinking anyway.

Redsky121 wrote:

Nobody is forcing anyone to take a job, people are perfectly entitled to not sign a contract presented to them.

Which is why the hotel industry has a serious recruitment and retention problem.

the beer revolu · 19-07-2019 11:16am

Redsky121 wrote: »

Why is it immoral to pay the minimum wage?

Nobody is forcing anyone to take a job, people are perfectly entitled to not sign a contract presented to them.

Well, I'll put it this way.
In the company in which I am a part owner, we choose to pay well over minimum wage for what are mw roles because we like to not be cnuts.
Or staff are loyal and happy, flexible and very hard working. We get a good deal.
I don't believe that minimum wage is enough to have a reasonable standard of living.

Neyite · 19-07-2019 11:26am

Without tips, working in hospitality is just not anywhere near a living wage. I was lucky that back when I did it, house shares where you got your own room were affordable on even that low wage. Locally we got in free to nightclubs so that helped a lot. In the place I worked we got our meals there so saved a lot on food bills - and it was decent grub, cooked fresh for you by the chefs who would also sit down with dinner from the same pot.

Split shifts were a killer though. Up at 6am, work 7-2.30, back for 6pm-1 or 2am. My one and only written warning came from working something like 15 days straight of split shifts and sleeping in on one shift towards the end and some jumped up little wanker supervisor decided to give me the warning. They thought I'd walk as soon as they handed me the letter so drafted in extra staff that night. I stayed so they'd waste money on the extra wages that night, and waited until there was a staff shortage and full capacity and quit with immediate effect meaning that the wanker would have to actually do loads of those split shifts herself for a few weeks until others were trained up.

jam_mac_jam · 19-07-2019 11:37am

the beer revolu wrote: »

Well, I'll put it this way.
In the company in which I am a part owner, we choose to pay well over minimum wage for what are mw roles because we like to not be cnuts.
Or staff are loyal and happy, flexible and very hard working. We get a good deal.
I don't believe that minimum wage is enough to have a reasonable standard of living.

And your company probably provides much better service if the employees are happy and well paid.

corkboy38 · 19-07-2019 11:38am

I worked in a seasonal hotel before the wages were average but the money was made on tips.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 11:40am

Redsky121 wrote:

I'm asking you why it's immoral, do you have an explanation without resorting to attacks on my character?

My use of the 'you' was a generalized reference apologies for not being clearer.
I worked in the tourism/hotel industry for several years. There is no reason not to pay a liveable wage, in my opinion when profits are so high off the backs of workers a minimum wage is immoral. You disagree fine, however the minimum wage in the sector is not attracting the workers that are needed, any suggestions as to what the industry can do to combat this?

jimgoose · 19-07-2019 11:46am

Neyite wrote: »

...the wanker would have to actually do loads of those split shifts herself for a few weeks until others were trained up.

I've encountered a good many of these Wanker Supervisor types in various lines of business, and I often wonder where their almost fanatical motivation comes from - it surely couldn't be the not-terribly-impressive extra few shilling per hour they get compared to everyone else? :pac:

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 11:47am

Redsky121 wrote:

Like most industries wages are determined by supply and demand. If they really need more staff they'll raise wages or find automated solutions.

The industries response is to overwork those that have already working for them and are seeking to have worker visa restrictions lifted to allow for easier employment of non EU workers.
Automated solutions for the tourism industry are you serious or clueless?

jimgoose · 19-07-2019 11:49am

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

...Automated solutions for the tourism industry are you serious or clueless?

"It's too bad she won't live. Then again, who does?"

latest?cb=20190311031039

topper75 · 19-07-2019 11:52am

Deleted User wrote: »

The answer is obviously minimum wage + a decent dividend to the workers once a year, based on the business overall profits of the year.

But that's probably too close to communism for some members here.

It's too close to a situation where there is not enterprise incentive and nobody would bother their hole opening up a hotel in the very first place, not to mind employ people.

There is a reason communism failed, and no it wasn't bad luck.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 11:53am

Redsky121 wrote:

I see you're going for the character attack.

Asking a question is not a character attack. You suggested automation for the hotel sector. Hence my question about were you serious or just clueless as to the nature of the industry.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 11:55am

Redsky121 wrote:

With the AI becoming more sophisticated more and more admin tasks can be automated, reducing the workload. I never said all aspects could be automated.

The admin tasks in any hotel are the least labour intensive. There is a myriad of roles that cannot be filled at present by anyone other than a human.

topper75 · 19-07-2019 11:55am

Sardonicat wrote: »

What utter insulting hogwash. You do realise that most front of house hotel staff have studied 'Tourism' or related to degree level, don't you? It's often stated as a requirement for reception staff for the 4 and 5 star hotels. My niece did this. She has an Honours Degree in the field and was working in a 5 star as a receptionist at just above minimum wage! She quit the industry (which she loved) because if the sh1t pay . She emigrated and is now in a great job in a totally unrelated field for a company that appreciates her education and work ethic.

Yes. We call this economics. I didn't mean to insult anybody. I merely issued an invitation to return to reality on this. If you are doing a job that does not demand high skill, don't expect high pay.

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 12:00pm

Redsky121 wrote:

Using the term "cluesless" is clearly an attack, there are respectful ways to ask if someone is uninformed, using the term "clueless" is clearly not respectful and I would hazard a guess you are not "clueless" about that.

Semantics, you clearly have no idea or clue of the tourism sector.

Karma King · 19-07-2019 12:02pm

I used to work in a hotel about 10 years ago. Was there for 3 years and paid €10 per hour (a good bit over the minimum wage at the time I believe). Double pay on Sundays. All the food you wanted but freshly made. I hated the job but it was decent pay and other little perks.

They're not all bad.

topper75 · 19-07-2019 12:03pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Semantics, you clearly have no idea or clue of the tourism sector.

In what respect do you feel that the tourism sector does or should defy the laws of economics?

Plumbthedepths · 19-07-2019 12:09pm

topper75 wrote:

In what respect do you feel that the tourism sector does or should defy the laws of economics?

Supply and demand, the hotel sector demands more workers than they can currently attract what laws of economics do you think should apply?

Sardonicat · 19-07-2019 12:17pm

topper75 wrote: »

Yes. We call this economics. I didn't mean to insult anybody. I merely issued an invitation to return to reality on this. If you are doing a job that does not demand high skill, don't expect high pay.

So why demand a degree in tourism for the low skilled job?

Neyite · 19-07-2019 12:44pm

jimgoose wrote: »

I've encountered a good many of these Wanker Supervisor types in various lines of business, and I often wonder where their almost fanatical motivation comes from - it surely couldn't be the not-terribly-impressive extra few shilling per hour they get compared to everyone else? :pac:

In my case I think that she was employing a tactic of making a mark as a new boss by targeting a long standing member of staff for a minor disciplinary issue to make everyone else sit up and work diligently in fear or something like that. Another place I worked a new boss did that to a colleague so it's obviously a thing. It was a different industry but also one that didn't pay great for the amount of sh!te you were expected to put up with.

Seanachai · 19-07-2019 1:04pm

I'm not in agreement with Morello's politics, but I think he hit the nail on the head with this one.

Necro · 19-07-2019 1:07pm

Neyite wrote: »

In my case I think that she was employing a tactic of making a mark as a new boss by targeting a long standing member of staff for a minor disciplinary issue to make everyone else sit up and work diligently in fear or something like that. Another place I worked a new boss did that to a colleague so it's obviously a thing. It was a different industry but also one that didn't pay great for the amount of sh!te you were expected to put up with.

Yeah, I had a manager in a roadhouse I worked in Australia (as assistant) that would routinely call in sick and make me do his dirty work for him.

Up to and including asking me to fire my own GF (now wife) at the time:cool:

We left at that point and about six weeks later he was fired for 'misappropriating funds'.

Amirani · 19-07-2019 1:57pm

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

They should have a minimum wage for the hospitality sector. These people work harder than employees in most other sectors.

Nonsense. Plenty of people across plenty of sectors work hard. Nothing against people in the hospitality industry (I worked there for a while, doing long shifts), but there's loads of jobs that are just as physically and mentally demanding.

Sonics2k · 19-07-2019 2:11pm

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

Astonishing, you know so little of the industry.

As someone who quite literally grew up in the Hospitality industry, I can tell you that you're very wrong. Chefs are often (with the exception of the head chef) chronically underpaid and overworked, plus they will typically work constant split shifts. 4 or so hours on, then off for a few hours, and then back for the evening shift.

My mother was a chef, and I distinctly remember her going to work before I'd even gotten out of bed for school, and coming home after 1am after finishing work. Her time off would be in the middle of the day.

Quite often the front line employees will have some form of Degree or qualification in hospitality too, so they do go to College to learn. Hospitality has always notoriously underpaid it's staff, with the exception of Head Chefs (1 per hotel) and General Manager (usually 1 per hotel, sometimes 2).

22k is liveable in somewhere like Cork, it can get you a place in the city but you'll have 3-5 housemates, as for Dublin, I can't imagine how they can function on that amount.

Bigbagofcans · 19-07-2019 2:12pm

Amirani wrote: »

Nonsense. Plenty of people across plenty of sectors work hard. Nothing against people in the hospitality industry (I worked there for a while, doing long shifts), but there's loads of jobs that are just as physically and mentally demanding.

I didn't say people don't work hard in other sectors. We're talking about sectors with rock bottom pay.
Name one other 'minimum wage' sector that is as demanding as the hospitality sector then?

sdraobs · 19-07-2019 2:21pm

the only sense of morality that can be gathered from paying staff such low wages is that we all do this work at some timein our lives before getting a qualification. hotels are good because there are flexible hours as opposed to 9-5 office jobs which conflict with school/college.

if someone does stay working in the hotel while others leave, chances are they will progress to management with more pay and less meaningless work.

Hotel Workers - Rock bottom pay

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