Hotel Workers - Rock bottom pay

Plumbthedepths

Redsky121 wrote:

I'm asking you why it's immoral, do you have an explanation without resorting to attacks on my character?

My use of the 'you' was a generalized reference apologies for not being clearer.
I worked in the tourism/hotel industry for several years. There is no reason not to pay a liveable wage, in my opinion when profits are so high off the backs of workers a minimum wage is immoral. You disagree fine, however the minimum wage in the sector is not attracting the workers that are needed, any suggestions as to what the industry can do to combat this?

jimgoose

Neyite wrote: »

...the wanker would have to actually do loads of those split shifts herself for a few weeks until others were trained up.

I've encountered a good many of these Wanker Supervisor types in various lines of business, and I often wonder where their almost fanatical motivation comes from - it surely couldn't be the not-terribly-impressive extra few shilling per hour they get compared to everyone else? :pac:

Plumbthedepths

Redsky121 wrote:

Like most industries wages are determined by supply and demand. If they really need more staff they'll raise wages or find automated solutions.

The industries response is to overwork those that have already working for them and are seeking to have worker visa restrictions lifted to allow for easier employment of non EU workers.
Automated solutions for the tourism industry are you serious or clueless?

jimgoose

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

...Automated solutions for the tourism industry are you serious or clueless?

"It's too bad she won't live. Then again, who does?"

topper75

Deleted User wrote: »

The answer is obviously minimum wage + a decent dividend to the workers once a year, based on the business overall profits of the year.

But that's probably too close to communism for some members here.

It's too close to a situation where there is not enterprise incentive and nobody would bother their hole opening up a hotel in the very first place, not to mind employ people.

There is a reason communism failed, and no it wasn't bad luck.

Plumbthedepths

Redsky121 wrote:

I see you're going for the character attack.

Asking a question is not a character attack. You suggested automation for the hotel sector. Hence my question about were you serious or just clueless as to the nature of the industry.

Plumbthedepths

Redsky121 wrote:

With the AI becoming more sophisticated more and more admin tasks can be automated, reducing the workload. I never said all aspects could be automated.

The admin tasks in any hotel are the least labour intensive. There is a myriad of roles that cannot be filled at present by anyone other than a human.

topper75

Sardonicat wrote: »

What utter insulting hogwash. You do realise that most front of house hotel staff have studied 'Tourism' or related to degree level, don't you? It's often stated as a requirement for reception staff for the 4 and 5 star hotels. My niece did this. She has an Honours Degree in the field and was working in a 5 star as a receptionist at just above minimum wage! She quit the industry (which she loved) because if the sh1t pay . She emigrated and is now in a great job in a totally unrelated field for a company that appreciates her education and work ethic.

Yes. We call this economics. I didn't mean to insult anybody. I merely issued an invitation to return to reality on this. If you are doing a job that does not demand high skill, don't expect high pay.

Plumbthedepths

Redsky121 wrote:

Using the term "cluesless" is clearly an attack, there are respectful ways to ask if someone is uninformed, using the term "clueless" is clearly not respectful and I would hazard a guess you are not "clueless" about that.

Semantics, you clearly have no idea or clue of the tourism sector.

Karma King

I used to work in a hotel about 10 years ago. Was there for 3 years and paid €10 per hour (a good bit over the minimum wage at the time I believe). Double pay on Sundays. All the food you wanted but freshly made. I hated the job but it was decent pay and other little perks.

They're not all bad.

topper75

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Semantics, you clearly have no idea or clue of the tourism sector.

In what respect do you feel that the tourism sector does or should defy the laws of economics?

Plumbthedepths

topper75 wrote:

In what respect do you feel that the tourism sector does or should defy the laws of economics?

Supply and demand, the hotel sector demands more workers than they can currently attract what laws of economics do you think should apply?

Sardonicat

topper75 wrote: »

Yes. We call this economics. I didn't mean to insult anybody. I merely issued an invitation to return to reality on this. If you are doing a job that does not demand high skill, don't expect high pay.

So why demand a degree in tourism for the low skilled job?

Neyite

jimgoose wrote: »

I've encountered a good many of these Wanker Supervisor types in various lines of business, and I often wonder where their almost fanatical motivation comes from - it surely couldn't be the not-terribly-impressive extra few shilling per hour they get compared to everyone else? :pac:

In my case I think that she was employing a tactic of making a mark as a new boss by targeting a long standing member of staff for a minor disciplinary issue to make everyone else sit up and work diligently in fear or something like that. Another place I worked a new boss did that to a colleague so it's obviously a thing. It was a different industry but also one that didn't pay great for the amount of sh!te you were expected to put up with.

Seanachai

I'm not in agreement with Morello's politics, but I think he hit the nail on the head with this one.

Necro

Neyite wrote: »

In my case I think that she was employing a tactic of making a mark as a new boss by targeting a long standing member of staff for a minor disciplinary issue to make everyone else sit up and work diligently in fear or something like that. Another place I worked a new boss did that to a colleague so it's obviously a thing. It was a different industry but also one that didn't pay great for the amount of sh!te you were expected to put up with.

Yeah, I had a manager in a roadhouse I worked in Australia (as assistant) that would routinely call in sick and make me do his dirty work for him.

Up to and including asking me to fire my own GF (now wife) at the time:cool:

We left at that point and about six weeks later he was fired for 'misappropriating funds'.

Amirani

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

They should have a minimum wage for the hospitality sector. These people work harder than employees in most other sectors.

Nonsense. Plenty of people across plenty of sectors work hard. Nothing against people in the hospitality industry (I worked there for a while, doing long shifts), but there's loads of jobs that are just as physically and mentally demanding.

Sonics2k

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

Irish people end up in minimum wage jobs because they deliberately and consciously avoided educational opportunities offered to them not only earlier in life but also on an ongoing basis as an adult (may not be the case for foreign hotel workers).

Astonishing, you know so little of the industry.

As someone who quite literally grew up in the Hospitality industry, I can tell you that you're very wrong. Chefs are often (with the exception of the head chef) chronically underpaid and overworked, plus they will typically work constant split shifts. 4 or so hours on, then off for a few hours, and then back for the evening shift.

My mother was a chef, and I distinctly remember her going to work before I'd even gotten out of bed for school, and coming home after 1am after finishing work. Her time off would be in the middle of the day.


Quite often the front line employees will have some form of Degree or qualification in hospitality too, so they do go to College to learn. Hospitality has always notoriously underpaid it's staff, with the exception of Head Chefs (1 per hotel) and General Manager (usually 1 per hotel, sometimes 2).


22k is liveable in somewhere like Cork, it can get you a place in the city but you'll have 3-5 housemates, as for Dublin, I can't imagine how they can function on that amount.

Bigbagofcans

Amirani wrote: »

Nonsense. Plenty of people across plenty of sectors work hard. Nothing against people in the hospitality industry (I worked there for a while, doing long shifts), but there's loads of jobs that are just as physically and mentally demanding.

I didn't say people don't work hard in other sectors. We're talking about sectors with rock bottom pay.
Name one other 'minimum wage' sector that is as demanding as the hospitality sector then?

sdraobs

the only sense of morality that can be gathered from paying staff such low wages is that we all do this work at some timein our lives before getting a qualification. hotels are good because there are flexible hours as opposed to 9-5 office jobs which conflict with school/college.

if someone does stay working in the hotel while others leave, chances are they will progress to management with more pay and less meaningless work.

hetuzozaho

Seanachai wrote: »

I'm not in agreement with Morello's politics, but I think he hit the nail on the head with this one.

Tom "do you know who I am" Morello remember that restaurant and living wage story that time?

topper75

Sonics2k wrote: »

Astonishing, you know so little of the industry.

You know so little of how a wage is derived in a free market economy. That is the real problem here.

I know the laws of economics - esp supply and demand and price mechanism. Most adults in Ireland do. I'm not special in that respect.

I'll ask again. Nobody answered me properly the first time: What is special about the hospitality industry that should allow it to defy the laws of economics?

If you what you are doing is not highly skilled and they can get anyone to do your job and train you up in an afternoon, why would you expect much more than minimum wage?

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

You know so little of how a wage is derived in a free market economy. That is the real problem here.

I know the laws of economics - esp supply and demand and price mechanism. Most adults in Ireland do. I'm not special in that respect.

I'll ask again. Nobody answered me properly the first time: What is special about the hospitality industry that should allow it to defy the laws of economics?

If you what you are doing is not highly skilled and they can get anyone to do your job and train you up in an afternoon, why would you expect much more than minimum wage?

the 'laws' of neoclassical economics have been long proven to be bull**** in reality!

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the 'laws' of neoclassical economics have been long proven to be bull**** in reality!

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

Seanachai

hetuzozaho wrote: »

Tom "do you know who I am" Morello remember that restaurant and living wage story that time?

I like this Meinert guy, "“My problem with movements is if you are not in lockstep, then you are evil.”

Wanderer78

topper75 wrote: »

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

the 'laws' of neoclassical theory are not actually laws at all, such as the laws of physics etc, which have been proven from theory, hence why they are called laws, the 'laws' of neoclassical theory have never been truly proven, anywhere on this planet, particularly at a macro level, and you may forget about that other law of neoclassical theory, equilibrium, this is also a myth. these 'laws' of economics are so called, largely due to political ideology more so than actual evidence of existence, ideologies such as neoliberalism, whereby actual evidence of proof truly isnt necessary.

one of the main outputs we are currently experiencing from these ideologies is, and frankly, dangerous, is relatively low wage inflation and rapid asset price inflation, largely due to the rapid creation of credit from our financial institutions, which is not particularly good in the long term!

Franz Von Peppercorn II

topper75 wrote: »

Accuses somebody else of economic illiteracy.
Proceeds to explain how hotels should operate like charities.

No I didn’t. You said that if wages rise the cost would be added to the consumer. That’s economic illiteracy of the highest order. Unfortunately it’s the kind of thing that is taught in econ 101. Even though it clearly contradicts the laws of supply and demand. (Which are true in most cases, but trivial).

Franz Von Peppercorn II

topper75 wrote: »

You make it sounds like they were fabricated by conniving people!
I assure you there is no need for any quote marks around them.

Most people on min wage in hosp sector didn't exactly bust their ass at school. For those who actively chose to train in the sector, low pay was never a secret so why complain afterwards about receiving low pay?

Tune in next week when we look at the lack of natural daylight down in Ireland's zinc mines. Is it fair?

Economics isn’t a science. It can’t predict the future nor even explain the past. There are multiple explanations for the depression. It’s one of the weakest social sciences, and that’s saying a lot. Basically it’s ideology mascarading as science, but unlike most ideologies it can’t be refuted. There is overwhelming evidence that the basics of the theory is irredeemably flawed.

There might be some useful stuff at post graduate level but at the level as it is taught to undergraduates it’s as useful as astrology.

Junkyard Tom

There is no 'free market'. There are no economic 'laws'. Supply and demand is fine in a simple little 'lego-man' experiment but humans are a lot more complicated.

JupiterKid

Hotels and the wider hospitality industry in general are notorious for working their staff to the bone and paying them as little as they can get away with.

For shame...

I haven't noticed that many Irish staff employed in hotels or restaurants lately myself.