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Why do narcissists lack the empathy chip

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    #32
    PoisonIvyBelle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,661 ✭✭✭PoisonIvyBelle


    Billray wrote: »
    How would you define narcissism? From my understanding we are all narcissists to a degree, those we call narcissists are just on the extreme end of the scale.

    If you check out that link it'll help you understand it.

    Like I said, the majority of people are not narcissists. Having some narcissitic traits simply means you have some narcissistic traits, it does not mean you have NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).

    You are either a narcissist or you are not.

    In the most basic sense, you can be a little narcissistic in terms of your personality traits, and that's a different ballgame as it's not a psychological issue that cannot be changed. It's just being a bit of an asshole.


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    #33
    bottlebrush
    Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭bottlebrush


    Narcissists know the meaning of empathy but don't feel it. They can fake it to use as a manipulative tool.


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    #34
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    Narcissism is often linked into to sociopathic and psychopathic personality disorders.


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    #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's a bit shït how everyone slags off the narcissists. A doctor once told me he'd hesitate to ever inform a patient they had a personality disorder because (a) they will probably interpret it as an attack (b) It's hard to blame them - it's effectively a diagnosis of being a shít human being and, (c) they'll never change anyway.

    It's weird how the psychiatric community refuses to acknowledge it as an illness, preferring to call it as a disorder. I think they still do the same with bipolar. It's as if they're concerned that if there's an acknowledged biological, genetic or epigenetic cause, people will lose all sense of personal responsibility and it will herald a great moral apocalypse.

    The sad truth may be that there are people born in this world who are incapable of living in harmony with the community, and may be destined to play themselves out as pariahs. I can see how that isn't the most uplifting diagnosis, and it might be kinder to offer a noble lie, a necessary illusion.

    I'm certain I've worked with a couple of narcissists in the past. It's a strange feeling, trying to feel sympathy for a person who behaves horrifically to people around them, with no regard for their vulnerabilities or feelings.


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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,679 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just to clarify my post; Narcissism is a disorder in the sense of it being a disordered personality but it's not a disorder in the sense of it being treatable. They are who they are.


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    #37
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    It's a bit shït how everyone slags off the narcissists.

    Not at all. Narcissists are utter *****.

    Due to the fact they're generally functioning (apart from their relationships with people) I think many find it hard to see them as having a "problem" which requires our compassion and sympathy.


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    #38
    Immortal Starlight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭Immortal Starlight


    My only advice to anyone who ends up in a relationship with someone like this is to walk away. You will never change them. They can fake it and will run rings around you while you begin to doubt your own sanity. All it leads to is a life of misery and heartache for you.


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    #39
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Yeah, their gaslighting really does make you think you're the problem. You start doubting yourself and it causes them to have even more power over you. And don't think it couldn't happen to you. I'm fairly tough and experienced and even I get bamboozled by a narcissist. Now I did dump her after three months of her nonsense but there was a period where I felt very confused and off balance.

    Part of the problem too is the sex tends to be very good. Narcissists tend to be hyper-sexual.


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    #40
    Vicarious Function
    Registered Users Posts: 5,480 ✭✭✭Vicarious Function


    Narcissists focus on everything to do with themselves, rather than other people. They start off a conversation telling all about themselves. Maybe, with less than two minutes to go, they will pause to ask "Well, how have you been?" But don't depend on that. If the other person starts to tell them about their own experience, the Narcissist will almost immediately switch the conversation over to himself, what he has been going through, showing total disregard for what the other person has to say.

    They don't focus on how other peple feel, because they are so focussed on themselves, so they can often be accused of lack of empathy. They can feel very deeply where it concerns themselves, but can't transfer this understanding of their own feelings to someone else's situation, how they feel i.e. exercise empathy towards another person.

    Where does narcissism arise from? Hard to say, but IMO, it's a striving to impress other people, as well as themselves, and to keep impressing upon themselves that they are terrific. So for one reason or another, they don't feel as good about themselves as they should. Overall Narcissism comes across as a form of selfishness, far as others are concerned. Just my opinions!


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    #41
    Whitestripe
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Whitestripe


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    My only advice to anyone who ends up in a relationship with someone like this is to walk away. You will never change them. They can fake it and will run rings around you while you begin to doubt your own sanity. All it leads to is a life of misery and heartache for you.


    Makes it sound so easy..


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    #42
    s7ryf3925pivug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭s7ryf3925pivug


    Nah they feel guilt, but it usually manifests as anger and resentment, and occasionally deep and overwhelming shame.

    They're basically a black hole of shame surrounded by defence mechanisms.


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    #43
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Being a narcissist is way more than just being selfish. It's a combination of traits. For example, after I broke up with the narcissist I was dating I googled around trying to find some sort of personality disorder to explain what I had just experienced. I found a psychology today article on the top 15 traits of a narcissist (or something along those lines) and it was like it was an article about the girl I dated - as if the author knew her and decided to write 15 accurate bullet points about her personality.


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Not at all. Narcissists are utter *****.
    What if they're just programmed to behave that way through a glitch in their brain code? The idea of good vs bad doesn't really arise then; as Persepoly said (but I'm not sure she meant it in that way) they are who they are.

    The Norsemen thought epileptic fits were demons trying to make off with a human possession. Our great-grandparents thought epilepsy was a blameworthy moral failure. Ditto schizophrenia, bipolar, depression. Attention disorders weren't even on their radar. Even miscarriage was a stigma. We are very quick to let our instincts stand in the gaps of medical knowlege and make outcasts of those we cannot understand.

    But the entire plot of the progress of human medicine points one withering finger towards a consistent message : if we throw around words like lunatic, bad, and idiot, we'll be the ones looking like fools by the end of the next paragraph.

    When in the course of human history has human society ever denounced one dispersed class of people and not been ultimately derided for it? It's a brave claim, that OK we were every time before, but this time, operating with the same lack of knowledge, we're sure these people are just kinda bad.

    I'm not intending to put words in your mouth BTW, that may not even be what you're saying. After all, they are a bit shít. But I don't think they're *bad*.


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    #45
    Immortal Starlight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭Immortal Starlight


    Whitestripe wrote: »
    Makes it sound so easy..

    It is far from easy. They will lie and lie and then lie some more. It gets to the point where you end up apologizing to them for what they have done wrong. They make you feel like their behavior is your fault and you have caused them to do and say the most hurtful things. They will cheat on you and will hurt you to your core. They can pretend that they care about you and you will get a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe they’ve changed and you both have turned a corner and maybe just maybe you can have a normal life like other couples and families have. It’s an endless merry go round of misery and heartache. It’s chilling when you realize a huge chunk of your life has been a lie.


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    #46
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    What if they're just programmed to behave that way through a glitch in their brain code?

    It's unfortunate for them they're narcissists.

    But the reality is some people are just bad, and they're bad people.

    They leave a trail of destruction and are unable to accept blame for anything. In fact if you try to blame them for something they will hate you with a passion. This is called narcissistic injury.

    I'm not a young lad so my days of being a bleeding heart are over. Some people can't be saved, and I accept that.


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    #47
    Whitestripe
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Whitestripe


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    It is far from easy. They will lie and lie and then lie some more. It gets to the point where you end up apologizing to them for what they have done wrong. They make you feel like their behavior is your fault and you have caused them to do and say the most hurtful things. They will cheat on you and will hurt you to your core. They can pretend that they care about you and you will get a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe they’ve changed and you both have turned a corner and maybe just maybe you can have a normal life like other couples and families have. It’s an endless merry go round of misery and heartache. It’s chilling when you realize a huge chunk of your life has been a lie.


    Oh I know that now, but can confirm that simply walking doesn't solve the problem. Not that I know what does, but it's definitely not simple.


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    #48
    Immortal Starlight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭Immortal Starlight


    Whitestripe wrote: »
    Oh I know that now, but can confirm that simply walking doesn't solve the problem. Not that I know what does, but it's definitely not simple.

    I know walking away doesn’t solve the problem. Nothing will ever give me back the years I’ve lost from my life. I’m a couple of years out of the relationship now and still can’t believe what I tolerated and kept telling myself things would change and get better. I look back in a state of shock really that I had that life. I won’t ever fully get over what has happened but at least the relationship is over and every day I’m thankful for that.


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    #49
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    You didn't lose those years. You were still alive and experiencing life and interacting with people other than your toxic ex.

    I'm sure there were plenty of positive things which happened to you during those years.


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    It's unfortunate for them they're narcissists.

    But the reality is some people are just bad, and they're bad people.

    Can you be bad without having any personal responsibility? You say it's unfortunate for them, which implies lack of agency (I agree, based on limited reading), but how, then, are they any different to the fox that kills every hen in the henhouse for his own amusement? He's not a bad fox. He's a machine, obeying a series of programmed commands.

    I don't see any harm in allowing the possibility that PDs should finally join the long line of biologically determined illnesses, along with the hundreds of other that we once believed were indicative of moral failure, badness, demonic possession, jewry, vice, piseoige, the evil eye, or by vexed fairies, etc and etc.


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    #51
    black_and_blue
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 53 ✭✭black_and_blue


    My family is made up of narcissists. Unable to recognise the problems they cause, blame things on me, unable to give apologies and then tell me that I am the person who needs to change. Yeah, change into a pyschopath who hits animals!!! Not going to happen.


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    #52
    nthclare
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,316 ✭✭✭nthclare


    The worst type of narcissist's I've come across are the Spiritual Narcissist.

    These monsters are absolute vampire's.

    They're very prevelant in the whole new age thing.

    If anything they say or do hurt's anyone else, it's always the other person's problem.
    Because the universe made it so.

    They believe in all this synchronization of vibrations and they're the universe and it revolves around them.

    If they've cheated on you, it's because it was to teach you a lesson and you should be grateful for said lesson.
    If you did anything to hurt their ego you're going to be sorry.
    They can disguard you for month's,then when their new supply dwindles, they'll be hoovering you up in no time.

    Best thing for a narc if you're strong enough,is have undermining banter with them, keep the fckrs down, they'll soon walk away from you....

    You're not lowering your self to their level, you're just meeting them on their level because that's all they know.

    Usually they're addict's, involved in hooky deal's, never have consistent friendships, they're well able to appear attractive.
    But if you look at them properly they're only empty shell's.

    Then you've people who call themselves empaths, they're sometimes more dangerous than the narcissist's.
    Because dealing with an empath you're walking on eggshells, because they're easily triggered and very dramatic...
    They're a bit like liberals or social justice warriors, very triggered and fiery...

    So I just steer clear of Narcissist's and empaths...


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    #53
    black_and_blue
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 53 ✭✭black_and_blue


    Is an apology too much from these types of people? But then I've seen the same type of people apologizing to people they believe is above them. But I'm the family scapegoat and I can go to hell?


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    #54
    black_and_blue
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 53 ✭✭black_and_blue


    black_and_blue wrote: »
    My family is made up of narcissists. Unable to recognise the problems they cause, blame things on me, unable to give apologies and then tell me that I am the person who needs to change. Yeah, change into a pyschopath who hits animals!!! Not going to happen.

    Not only blame me, but blame me for my reaction to their abuse as well.


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    #55
    Whitestripe
    Registered Users Posts: 90 ✭✭Whitestripe


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    I know walking away doesn’t solve the problem. Nothing will ever give me back the years I’ve lost from my life. I’m a couple of years out of the relationship now and still can’t believe what I tolerated and kept telling myself things would change and get better. I look back in a state of shock really that I had that life. I won’t ever fully get over what has happened but at least the relationship is over and every day I’m thankful for that.


    Ans you made it, so allow yourself to be happy about it :)


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    #56
    bottlebrush
    Registered Users Posts: 8,192 ✭✭✭bottlebrush


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    I know walking away doesn’t solve the problem. Nothing will ever give me back the years I’ve lost from my life. I’m a couple of years out of the relationship now and still can’t believe what I tolerated and kept telling myself things would change and get better. I look back in a state of shock really that I had that life. I won’t ever fully get over what has happened but at least the relationship is over and every day I’m thankful for that.

    One good thing though is that you will recognise the signs if you meet any more narcissists. I don't know if I would be correct in saying you are an empath but if you are you will attract these people like bees to honey. Having been at the receiving end of narcisstic abuse myself I know I have a personality that attracts this personality type and I find it's almost a full time job keeping them at bay. Most of the time I will walk away but it's not so easy when it's in the family or at work and managing these situations is draining. Even if treatable, Narcissists don't think there is anything wrong with their behaviour so even if there was effective treatment they would never seek it. The waiting rooms of the specialists for NPD would be forever empty.


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    #57
    Immortal Starlight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭Immortal Starlight


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    You didn't lose those years. You were still alive and experiencing life and interacting with people other than your toxic ex.

    I'm sure there were plenty of positive things which happened to you during those years.

    I know what you mean. Of course I was alive and experiencing life and interacting with people. It wasn’t a proper life though. Constantly worrying about what would happen on any day of the week he decided to kick off, which being honest was most days. My family has even told me that they watched me slowly change from when I met him. I went from being happy and sunny in my work and life to being a shell of myself towards the end. There is no way anyone else should be allowed do this to me or you and I do feel like I’ve lost years of my life because my life was never my own. I had always to think what would he think or say about everything and that’s not a life.


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    #58
    Immortal Starlight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,074 ✭✭✭Immortal Starlight


    bottlebrush wrote: »
    One good thing though is that you will recognise the signs if you meet any more narcissists. I don't know if I would be correct in saying you are an empath but if you are you will attract these people like bees to honey. Having been at the receiving end of narcisstic abuse myself I know I have a personality that attracts this personality type and I find it's almost a full time job keeping them at bay. Most of the time I will walk away but it's not so easy when it's in the family or at work and managing these situations is draining. Even if treatable Narcissists don't think there is anything wrong with their behaviour so even if there was effective treatment they would never seek it. The waiting rooms of the specialists for NPD would be forever empty.

    I don’t know much about these kind of things really. I just know what happened in my life went on far too long and it was a far from healthy relationship. To be honest it has shocked me to my core that I actually thought this man ever cared a jot for me. Looking back it’s like it happened to someone else and I feel so incredibly stupid. To the day he left everything was always all my fault. It’s just exhausting.


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    #59
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »
    Can you be bad without having any personal responsibility? You say it's unfortunate for them, which implies lack of agency (I agree, based on limited reading), but how, then, are they any different to the fox that kills every hen in the henhouse for his own amusement? He's not a bad fox. He's a machine, obeying a series of programmed commands.

    I don't see any harm in allowing the possibility that PDs should finally join the long line of biologically determined illnesses, along with the hundreds of other that we once believed were indicative of moral failure, badness, demonic possession, jewry, vice, piseoige, the evil eye, or by vexed fairies, etc and etc.

    I would put them in a similar category as psychopaths.

    I'm not sure what's the best way to deal with these people.

    Personally I'd rather just take them out of society. We are too tolerant of bad behaviour, and our society is a lot worse for it.

    I haven't really thought this through so I'm not sure if this is my real opinion on the matter.


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    #60
    mzungu
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,306 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Immortal Starlight wrote: »
    I don’t know much about these kind of things really. I just know what happened in my life went on far too long and it was a far from healthy relationship. To be honest it has shocked me to my core that I actually thought this man ever cared a jot for me. Looking back it’s like it happened to someone else and I feel so incredibly stupid. To the day he left everything was always all my fault. It’s just exhausting.

    Please don't. Those sort of people specialise in manipulation. Although its tough to look back on those years, see them instead as a valuable learning experience. You won't make the same mistake again.

    On a separate note, I also don't agree with the assertions put forward elsewhere on the thread that they are merely agentless victims. It is an interesting angle, but it diminishes personal responsibility to the point of making it redundant. We all have choices and we all have control over what we do.


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I would put them in a similar category as psychopaths.

    I'm not sure what's the best way to deal with these people.
    They are in a similar category to psychopaths; both have recognised, highly heritable traits (along with a third disorder called Borderline) which are influenced by known anatomical and genetic factors.

    We need to ask ourselves hard questions like "Is the person with X Personality Disorder any more responsible for their behaviour than a child with autism?"

    I don't know the answer to that, but doesn't it strike you in any way as odd that we have continuously, throughout the course of natural history, been ascribing to mental afflictions the qualities of" good"and "evil" for our lack of knowledge, when time, and time and time again those declarations have shown us to be in the wrong, instead of those whom we routinely condemn.

    It's a suspect approach we're taking. I think that much must be acknowledged.


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