Why do narcissists lack the empathy chip

black_and_blue

Why are some people just so damn nasty and lack an empathy chip?

Wibbs

The answer is in the title I'd imagine BaB?

Version 2.0 is proven to replicate human emotions.

Sardonicat

Do they lack it or do they mis-use it?

Lirange

Sardonicat wrote: »

Do they lack it or do they mis-use it?

What do you mean by misuse it?

OP, as a "Trekkie" fan I suggest you watch YouTube videos about the android Commander Data that feature his "brother" Lore. Lore is different insofar as he lacks empathy.
Might point ya in the right direction.
Almost forgot about Diana Troy the ship psychologist.
Watch a few YouTube videos with her as well Good Lad.

antiskeptic

black_and_blue wrote: »

Why are some people just so damn nasty and lack an empathy chip?

Psychology 101 says they were abandoned/abused/unloved (in a healthy way) as kids and the way to deal with the fear/pain/loneliness/etc. which naturally follows was to simply bury that which would cause such negative things to arise. Namely, love of self.

If you don't love yourself then you don't see an issue in being abandoned/abused/unloved.

Pretty simple really. But then again, kids are pretty simple in their thinking. So a kid level response is to be expected.

Fast forward when this kid mode of dealing with things has fully baked. Objects moving in a straight line unless acted upon by a course altering force simple keep going in the same direction..

Lack of self empathy naturally =
lack of empathy for others. Like, if you ain't got it for yourself you certainly ain't goin to have it for another.

Sardonicat

Lirange wrote: »

What do you mean by misuse it?

In order to be highly manipulative one needs to fully understand the emotional /psychological pact of one's actions. You need empathy for that. What they lack is remorse.

suicide_circus

a large curry & empathy chip pls

IAMAMORON

Because everyone else is wrong about everything I believe is right, you idiots. Agree with me now or there will be repercussions.

topper75

I thought this was psychopaths?

No doubt the 'dual players' would be quite numerous.

antiskeptic

Sardonicat wrote: »

In order to be highly manipulative one needs to fully understand the emotional /psychological pact of one's actions.

So my cat needs to understand the internal combustion engine before he figures the bonnet of my car is the best place to have a snooze.

Clearly, observing a particular response from a person, following an action of yours, requires no other ability than noticing this reaction followed that action.

You need not a clue at all about why the person reacted to your action, in order to observe their response. And repeat that action and find it gets the same kind of response. Tool for the toolkit.

Sure enough you can develop on the root observation: "why did they react to that action of mine". And you can find out what was going on for them psychologically and then apply that knowledge mechanistically / by rote.

No remorse because there is no empathy to begin with. They are being mechanistic in their application of insight. They don't actually feel as others feel. And so, whilst they have a certain understanding (such as to to make use of that knowledge) they don't fully understand. If you fully understood you would be empathic.

topper75

antiskeptic wrote: »

Fast forward when this kid mode of dealing with things has fully baked. Objects moving in a straight line unless acted upon by a course altering force simple keep going in the same direction..

So this 'course altering force'... could it be a fist in the jaw?

antiskeptic

topper75 wrote: »

So this 'course'... could it be a fist in the jaw?

If the problem is erosion of / failure in the learning of self love then a fist in the jaw isn't going to make up for the deficit.

Indeed, anyone cruising for a bruising clearly doesn't love themselves. Nor does the person who resorts to fists.

Sardonicat

antiskeptic wrote: »

If the problem is erosion of / failure in the learning of self love then a fist in the jaw isn't going to make up for the deficit.

Indeed, anyone cruising for a bruising clearly doesn't love themselves. Nor does the person who resorts to fists.

Failure to learn self-love? It's the only thing they do love.

screamer

Dunno about self love, but I can’t for the life of me figure how anyone falls in love with a narcissist. Now, they must have no self worth at all....

antiskeptic

Zeashore wrote: »

According to "The Laws of Human Nature" by Robert Green we're all narcissists to some degree. There is a spectrum of narcissism. Most people function fine where they are on the spectrum, but to the extreme it can become highly toxic for themselves and those they associate with.

I'd agree. One of the reasons politicians are slow to act on global warming is because of the obvious. The show can't go on: ever increasing growth and ever more stuff conflicts with what has to happen.

But as soon as you act to cramp people who are addicted to consumption you'll be voted out of office.

Even those now marching, if the tap of consumption were turned off as rapidly as they insist it need be turned off, would be hollering when its their jobs and livelihoods that get axed.

As the man said: its hard to get a man to believe something when his livelihood (and his enjoying the trappings of modern life) depends on him not believing it.

Narcisscism in us all.

antiskeptic

Sardonicat wrote: »

Failure to learn self-love? It's the only thing they do love.

Love is good. What you are talking about is self lust, self interest, self-ishness.

Love is patient, kind, wanting the good of another over self. Love is a mother taking the hit from an oncoming car so that her beloved child is saved.

Different things altogether.

Sardonicat

I really don't need schooling on narcs. Or any of the other Cluster Bs. I have plenty of personal experience as my family is full of them and speaking to the older generation it goes way back on both sides. This stuff is genetic.

Narcissism : the personality disorder that the sufferer doesn't seek treatment for but everyone around them does

Sardonicat

screamer wrote: »

Dunno about self love, but I can’t for the life of me figure how anyone falls in love with a narcissist. Now, they must have no self worth at all....

The mask stays on til they know it's safe to remove. If you've never had the misfortune of dealing with one you won't see it til the harm's been done.

Lirange

Sardonicat wrote: »

In order to be highly manipulative one needs to fully understand the emotional /psychological pact of one's actions. You need empathy for that. What they lack is remorse.

I see.

My understanding of empathy has always been a bit more than this. That there is also an emotional connection. That people actually care.

ILoveYourVibes

black_and_blue wrote: »

Why are some people just so damn nasty and lack an empathy chip?

My opinion is they don't. They lack respect for others but not the ability to empathize. Often they are very good at empathizing.

topper75

antiskeptic wrote: »

Indeed, anyone cruising for a bruising clearly doesn't love themselves. Nor does the person who resorts to fists.

Maybe only Jesus and Buddha love themselves then.

I mean, you've thrown a punch a some point in your life, right? I'm not asking you to claim that you were proud you did, just to confirm that you did...

antiskeptic

topper75 wrote: »

Maybe only Jesus and Buddha love themselves then.

I mean, you've thrown a punch a some point in your life, right? I'm not asking you to claim that you were proud you did, just to confirm that you did...

I did indeed. And recieving one taught me to avoid.

Jesus formed a whip in the temple. Don't know about the buddha.

Point is, we're all narcissists. The question is whether we tip over into the extreme version. It was that extreme I was referring to: e.g. one who would live by the fist.

black_and_blue

antiskeptic wrote: »

Psychology 101 says they were abandoned/abused/unloved (in a healthy way) as kids and the way to deal with the fear/pain/loneliness/etc. which naturally follows was to simply bury that which would cause such negative things to arise. Namely, love of self.

If you don't love yourself then you don't see an issue in being abandoned/abused/unloved.

Pretty simple really. But then again, kids are pretty simple in their thinking. So a kid level response is to be expected.

Fast forward when this kid mode of dealing with things has fully baked. Objects moving in a straight line unless acted upon by a course altering force simple keep going in the same direction..

Lack of self empathy naturally =
lack of empathy for others. Like, if you ain't got it for yourself you certainly ain't goin to have it for another.

They only love themselves though.

PoisonIvyBelle

Narcissists lack empathy because they have a psychological disorder. That's really all there is to it. They don't have the emotional maturity or self awareness to change or to realise that their behaviour is abnormal. For that reason, you'll never be able to have a truly honest conversation with a narcissist and any percieved "empathy" you see from them will always be rooted in masking their true selves. Again, the problem with this masking is that they truly cannot see what they're doing. It's very conflicting to deal with this kind of person because it's hard to think that someone simply cannot change. It's a sad thing, for everyone involved, whether it's a familial, platonic, or romantic relationship.

Someone having narcisstic traits, however, does not make that person a narcissist. Everyone can be a little selfish sometimes. People have limits. Some people just aren't very nice. The difference is that someone like this may not be very empathetic but they are still capable of empathy. It's just a case of working on themselves and wanting to.

My question would be why you're asking the question? If, as you've noted, you've experienced what it's like to deal with a narcissist, then you know that there really is nothing that can be done by that person to change how they are. Even if you brought them to some level of awareness, it would be at a very stunted level emotionally with no way to progress beyond that. What I'd say to you is that if you have someone like this in your life it's best to either try to move on from them or at the very least be conscious of these facts in your dealings with them so that their actions don't affect you as much.

I'm walking at the min so no time to respond properly but Narcissism is not a disorder it's a personality type.

OMM 0000

I dated a narcissist in the past. It was an incredibly confusing and stressful experience.

One of the problems narcissists have is they kind of know they're narcissists, but they don't care. That inability to genuinely care about people also applies to themselves. The whole thing is sad.

They should teach this sort of thing in school so people are equipped to recognise it so they can save themselves the horror which is a narcissistic relationship.

PoisonIvyBelle

Billray wrote: »

Most people hide their true selves, they present a personality that is socially acceptable.

Most people enjoy the smell of their own farts, they won't say that though, it's a part of their personality they repress.

Sure, and you're right. The majority of people aren't narcissists. In fact, I'd say it's a term that's used far too lightly nowadays. The difference is that you could be one way at work say, and one way at home with your partner, and be aware of that. That's normal. A lot of people do it. It's just adapting your personality to different people and situations.

Narcissism is a psychological disorder. I believe someone said it wasn't a disorder, but if you check it's listed in the DSM as you'll see in this link..

Mrs OBumble

Defect in the manufacturing process. Unclear whether it's caused pre or post birth.

Inadequate quality control means that the problem isn't identified until it's too late to fix it.

I think empathy or the appearance of empathy with narcissists is a very surface thing, and depends entirely on how the reception of that appearance of empathy benefits them.

Most people aren't narcissists but most have encountered them and not necessarily realized (the first time) until it was behind them and they survey the wreckage. I think the label gets thrown around a bit too, selfish people aren't necessarily narcissists even if narcissists are always selfish people.

PoisonIvyBelle

Billray wrote: »

How would you define narcissism? From my understanding we are all narcissists to a degree, those we call narcissists are just on the extreme end of the scale.

If you check out that link it'll help you understand it.

Like I said, the majority of people are not narcissists. Having some narcissitic traits simply means you have some narcissistic traits, it does not mean you have NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder).

You are either a narcissist or you are not.

In the most basic sense, you can be a little narcissistic in terms of your personality traits, and that's a different ballgame as it's not a psychological issue that cannot be changed. It's just being a bit of an asshole.

bottlebrush

Narcissists know the meaning of empathy but don't feel it. They can fake it to use as a manipulative tool.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Narcissism is often linked into to sociopathic and psychopathic personality disorders.

It's a bit shït how everyone slags off the narcissists. A doctor once told me he'd hesitate to ever inform a patient they had a personality disorder because (a) they will probably interpret it as an attack (b) It's hard to blame them - it's effectively a diagnosis of being a shít human being and, (c) they'll never change anyway.

It's weird how the psychiatric community refuses to acknowledge it as an illness, preferring to call it as a disorder. I think they still do the same with bipolar. It's as if they're concerned that if there's an acknowledged biological, genetic or epigenetic cause, people will lose all sense of personal responsibility and it will herald a great moral apocalypse.

The sad truth may be that there are people born in this world who are incapable of living in harmony with the community, and may be destined to play themselves out as pariahs. I can see how that isn't the most uplifting diagnosis, and it might be kinder to offer a noble lie, a necessary illusion.

I'm certain I've worked with a couple of narcissists in the past. It's a strange feeling, trying to feel sympathy for a person who behaves horrifically to people around them, with no regard for their vulnerabilities or feelings.

Just to clarify my post; Narcissism is a disorder in the sense of it being a disordered personality but it's not a disorder in the sense of it being treatable. They are who they are.

OMM 0000

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's a bit shït how everyone slags off the narcissists.

Not at all. Narcissists are utter *****.

Due to the fact they're generally functioning (apart from their relationships with people) I think many find it hard to see them as having a "problem" which requires our compassion and sympathy.

Immortal Starlight

My only advice to anyone who ends up in a relationship with someone like this is to walk away. You will never change them. They can fake it and will run rings around you while you begin to doubt your own sanity. All it leads to is a life of misery and heartache for you.

OMM 0000

Yeah, their gaslighting really does make you think you're the problem. You start doubting yourself and it causes them to have even more power over you. And don't think it couldn't happen to you. I'm fairly tough and experienced and even I get bamboozled by a narcissist. Now I did dump her after three months of her nonsense but there was a period where I felt very confused and off balance.

Part of the problem too is the sex tends to be very good. Narcissists tend to be hyper-sexual.

Vicarious Function

Narcissists focus on everything to do with themselves, rather than other people. They start off a conversation telling all about themselves. Maybe, with less than two minutes to go, they will pause to ask "Well, how have you been?" But don't depend on that. If the other person starts to tell them about their own experience, the Narcissist will almost immediately switch the conversation over to himself, what he has been going through, showing total disregard for what the other person has to say.

They don't focus on how other peple feel, because they are so focussed on themselves, so they can often be accused of lack of empathy. They can feel very deeply where it concerns themselves, but can't transfer this understanding of their own feelings to someone else's situation, how they feel i.e. exercise empathy towards another person.

Where does narcissism arise from? Hard to say, but IMO, it's a striving to impress other people, as well as themselves, and to keep impressing upon themselves that they are terrific. So for one reason or another, they don't feel as good about themselves as they should. Overall Narcissism comes across as a form of selfishness, far as others are concerned. Just my opinions!

Whitestripe

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

My only advice to anyone who ends up in a relationship with someone like this is to walk away. You will never change them. They can fake it and will run rings around you while you begin to doubt your own sanity. All it leads to is a life of misery and heartache for you.

Makes it sound so easy..

s7ryf3925pivug

Nah they feel guilt, but it usually manifests as anger and resentment, and occasionally deep and overwhelming shame.

They're basically a black hole of shame surrounded by defence mechanisms.

OMM 0000

Being a narcissist is way more than just being selfish. It's a combination of traits. For example, after I broke up with the narcissist I was dating I googled around trying to find some sort of personality disorder to explain what I had just experienced. I found a psychology today article on the top 15 traits of a narcissist (or something along those lines) and it was like it was an article about the girl I dated - as if the author knew her and decided to write 15 accurate bullet points about her personality.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Not at all. Narcissists are utter *****.

What if they're just programmed to behave that way through a glitch in their brain code? The idea of good vs bad doesn't really arise then; as Persepoly said (but I'm not sure she meant it in that way) they are who they are.

The Norsemen thought epileptic fits were demons trying to make off with a human possession. Our great-grandparents thought epilepsy was a blameworthy moral failure. Ditto schizophrenia, bipolar, depression. Attention disorders weren't even on their radar. Even miscarriage was a stigma. We are very quick to let our instincts stand in the gaps of medical knowlege and make outcasts of those we cannot understand.

But the entire plot of the progress of human medicine points one withering finger towards a consistent message : if we throw around words like lunatic, bad, and idiot, we'll be the ones looking like fools by the end of the next paragraph.

When in the course of human history has human society ever denounced one dispersed class of people and not been ultimately derided for it? It's a brave claim, that OK we were every time before, but this time, operating with the same lack of knowledge, we're sure these people are just kinda bad.

I'm not intending to put words in your mouth BTW, that may not even be what you're saying. After all, they are a bit shít. But I don't think they're *bad*.

Immortal Starlight

Whitestripe wrote: »

Makes it sound so easy..

It is far from easy. They will lie and lie and then lie some more. It gets to the point where you end up apologizing to them for what they have done wrong. They make you feel like their behavior is your fault and you have caused them to do and say the most hurtful things. They will cheat on you and will hurt you to your core. They can pretend that they care about you and you will get a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe they’ve changed and you both have turned a corner and maybe just maybe you can have a normal life like other couples and families have. It’s an endless merry go round of misery and heartache. It’s chilling when you realize a huge chunk of your life has been a lie.

OMM 0000

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

What if they're just programmed to behave that way through a glitch in their brain code?

It's unfortunate for them they're narcissists.

But the reality is some people are just bad, and they're bad people.

They leave a trail of destruction and are unable to accept blame for anything. In fact if you try to blame them for something they will hate you with a passion. This is called narcissistic injury.

I'm not a young lad so my days of being a bleeding heart are over. Some people can't be saved, and I accept that.

Whitestripe

Immortal Starlight wrote: »

It is far from easy. They will lie and lie and then lie some more. It gets to the point where you end up apologizing to them for what they have done wrong. They make you feel like their behavior is your fault and you have caused them to do and say the most hurtful things. They will cheat on you and will hurt you to your core. They can pretend that they care about you and you will get a tiny glimmer of hope that maybe they’ve changed and you both have turned a corner and maybe just maybe you can have a normal life like other couples and families have. It’s an endless merry go round of misery and heartache. It’s chilling when you realize a huge chunk of your life has been a lie.

Oh I know that now, but can confirm that simply walking doesn't solve the problem. Not that I know what does, but it's definitely not simple.

Immortal Starlight

Whitestripe wrote: »

Oh I know that now, but can confirm that simply walking doesn't solve the problem. Not that I know what does, but it's definitely not simple.

I know walking away doesn’t solve the problem. Nothing will ever give me back the years I’ve lost from my life. I’m a couple of years out of the relationship now and still can’t believe what I tolerated and kept telling myself things would change and get better. I look back in a state of shock really that I had that life. I won’t ever fully get over what has happened but at least the relationship is over and every day I’m thankful for that.

OMM 0000

You didn't lose those years. You were still alive and experiencing life and interacting with people other than your toxic ex.

I'm sure there were plenty of positive things which happened to you during those years.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

It's unfortunate for them they're narcissists.

But the reality is some people are just bad, and they're bad people.

Can you be bad without having any personal responsibility? You say it's unfortunate for them, which implies lack of agency (I agree, based on limited reading), but how, then, are they any different to the fox that kills every hen in the henhouse for his own amusement? He's not a bad fox. He's a machine, obeying a series of programmed commands.

I don't see any harm in allowing the possibility that PDs should finally join the long line of biologically determined illnesses, along with the hundreds of other that we once believed were indicative of moral failure, badness, demonic possession, jewry, vice, piseoige, the evil eye, or by vexed fairies, etc and etc.

black_and_blue

My family is made up of narcissists. Unable to recognise the problems they cause, blame things on me, unable to give apologies and then tell me that I am the person who needs to change. Yeah, change into a pyschopath who hits animals!!! Not going to happen.