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General gaming discussion
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Another great video by Sophia on the Polygon article about morality.
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Robert ninja wrote: »Another great video by Sophia on the Polygon article about morality.
That's a terrible video. She is attacking points the article never even made.
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Robert ninja wrote: »She's talking more about tweets about it later. She did more than a response video to an article. Actual journalism.
I'm sorry but it was complete garbage and an example of terrible journalism. I mean she total misses the point of the article to fit the narrative of her own agenda and then within the first minute she says she won't go into the content of the article (which.... is kind of necessary if you are attacking it) and talks about the headline. It's thrash. Saying the author is like Jack Thompson (nonsense) and says the author said morally grey choices in games would make people commit hate crimes which the author never said in the article.
In the words of Eamon Dunphy, gutter journalism.
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I assume the article is this:https://www.polygon.com/2020/8/3/21352437/games-morality-last-of-of-us-bioshock-good-bad
It's utter bolix. Games don't need to return to anything, they don't need to serve some higher purpose, they are art and entertainment.
By their nature games are art. If you don't like it then it's unfortunately something you have to deal with because it's an unarguable fact. There will always be games that are just about entertaining the audience but I think it's pretty ridiculous to claim that developers shouldn't try to explore new ideas and expand what the videogame medium can be and can offer because you just want to be entertained. If you don't like those games then just stick to the ones that entertain.We don't need to go back to simple morality for simple minds - games evolved past good mario saving helpless princess from bad evil, thank god for that.
This is just agenda pushing because the author never alludes to this in the article.Robert ninja wrote: »She's calling out the agenda pushing in mainstream game journalism (where she's blacklisted)
Let's not get ahead of ourselves and call a spade a spade. She isn't blacklisted. She's just an awful journalist. In fact calling her a journalist is a stretch. She is just wretchedly antagonistic and inflammatory and that video is just another example of her agenda pushing rather than actual journalismRobert ninja wrote: »The tweet responses by that EA guy mentioned to use games to stop racism/capitalism. Yes he actually thinks they're both things that need to be equally challenged... by video games. Maybe he should forward a mission statement to his EA superiors on how they should release their future games to the state instead of selling it like filthy capitalists.
The fact that this is even part of the discussion is insane. It's nonsense tweets from a low level employee. How is it even considered part of the discourse?
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The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »The article is called 'Games need to return to black-and-white morality'...
Which if you have an agenda could be misconstrued as saying morally grey subject matter should be completely replaced by black and white morality.
If however you actually read the article this is not what it's about. The 'return to black-and-white morality' is actually saying that in a lot of cases, such as fascism and racism for example, there really doesn't need to be a morally grey conundrum, it's often times better to represent this as black and white.
You can interpret it anyway you want but that is not the authors intent. Interpreting it that way is on your own preconceptions because it's all there, in the article. If you want to be like Narwitz and just interpret it as she says based on the headline then go ahead and completely miss the point.
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The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »I've brought this up in TLOU2 thread before - Racism is wrong, completely but what about the person raised in a household or environment where all he has been thought is a racist ideology? Is he inherently evil through no fault of his own? Do you reach out to him to try and educate him to what is wrong or do you instantly call him wicked and shun him for his beliefs? The problem with black and white is that it just creates more entrenched division with any hope of creating any unity. The fact is each side of the political divide is going to see themselves as the good guys and the notion of 'objective morality' is mostly going to differ, depending on where you live and where your political affiliations lie.
Do we really need that all the time every time? Are we not getting into reams and reams of lore with that.
Also I think there comes a point where someone goes so far they are irredeemable. No upbringing or whatever can change that. There's people out there that are just evil, there's no moral grey.
What the author is talking about is like with Bioshock infinite where it struggles to find a morale grey area for racism and manages to fail spectacularly at it as it comes across as an argument for racism. That's the issue the author is addressing. On some matters, especially when it's concepts like racism rather than individual people, there is no morale grey and it's ok to say fascism or racism or the legend of dragoon is just evil and bad. There's no moral grey.
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The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »You thought Bioshock Infinite's storyline came across like an argument for racism? I would have taken the view form the storyline that power, no matter how noble the intent behind it, can corrupt - it's a recurring theme throughout the series. It wasn't ever going to change my opinion that racism is wrong.
No I didn't think it was. It was more that it was making such a hamfisted attempt at it that you could make a case for it that it was. Daisy Fitzroy's character in particular was handled really badly. So much so that Ken Levine tried to retrocon it with... well morale greyness that just made everything worse.
Basically the game has a theme that if black people were in power and in the same position as the whites then they would be just as bad. Which they probably would be, we are all the same and can be corrupted by power equally. But both cases are still racism. And it doesn't actually comment or attack actual racism.
So what's so wrong and scary about that? Because that sort of thinking lead to stuff like the troubles up the North and Apartheid in South Africa. If the subjugated people got into power then they would treat us the same or worse because of what we did to them. So then you end up with the abuse doubling down to try to keep these people subjugated.
And that there is the biggest issue with Bioshock Infinite. I don't believe Ken Levine meant for it to come across that way and wanted to show moral grey complexity but unfortunately it came back to a very dangerous and racist way of thinking, the same thinking that gives people in power of subjugated people an excuse to carry out abuse. And even more than the boring gunplay it's why I think Bioshock infinite is an awful game.
I pretty much feel that Ken Levine's retconning of Daisy Fitzroy in the DLC is him recognizing that he messed up and trying (in a terribly hamfisted way) to make amends for it.
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The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »I didn't realise that Bioshock Infinite was responsible for Apartheid in South Africa and sectarianism in the North. It truly is a terrible game...
That's hyperbolic but I'll stand by not sticking up for any game that promotes those views, whether anything negative comes from it or not.The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »And how did South Africa deal with Apartheid? Did it keep up the black and white version of 'objective' morality to implement justice? No, it didn't. It used a Truth and Reconciliation Commission.The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »The problem with Northern Ireland is that there's never been a proper attempt at something like this, mostly because the British government don't want to come clean on all the **** that went on there.
Seeing things not in black and white gives us tools to try and comprehend the motives of the other side and come to some sort of mutual understanding as a way of moving forward.
I can see what you are doing here and I agree with you, both examples aren't black and white. Although the moral grey you talk about are solutions and events that come out of these situations. I still believe that the situation of apartheid and sectarianism unarguably wrong and evil. No moral grey there. And Bioschock Infinite managed to stumble into those areas in it's attempt to be morally grey. I don't think Ken Levine was even aware he was making those parallels.
Maybe Bioshock Infinite would have been much better if it explored these rather than the confused mess we got.
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Because he responded and she made a video with it included? There's no restrictions on who or what she or anyone else can talk about. You make it sound like it's off topic because you simply don't think the topic should go in that direction. The article in and of itself isn't that interesting, it's just another agenda pushing ****post.Retr0gamer wrote: »How is it even considered part of the discourse?
She absolutely is blacklisted along with anyone else who dares oppose the game journo clique. I even remember Danny 'blacklist' odwyer trying to smear the brilliant Brad Glasgow on these very forums.Retr0gamer wrote: »She isn't blacklisted. She's just an awful journalist
I could say the same thing for the complete hacks in the MSM. At least she, along with a lot of others that are unpopular around here, forged her own path and gained their own audience through hard work and resonating with people. The game journo activists that blacklist her and others need big sites like polygon to push their shyte because that junk wouldn't get any attention without a big corporation shilling it and protecting it from criticism in the comments.Retr0gamer wrote: »In fact calling her a journalist is a stretch.
As for Bioshock Infinite... god damn I hate that game. So unbelievably boring. But overall I thought it had a fairly tame take on the whole racism angle. It was "Drugs r bad mmkay?" levels of effort and I didn't really care. The only talk of it I remember was Elizabeth saying something along the lines of "Seems unnecessarily complicated" when the player responds "That's just the way it is" on why there's segregated bathrooms. It was a surprisingly innocent line that made me smirk. Funny enough she then complains when you enter the women's bathroom which had me laughing considering that Law Breakers incident.
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There's not an awful lot or journalism in what she writes and most of it is hate fueled rot:
https://qoshe.com/yazar/sophia-narwitz/2648254
I wouldn't employ her to write the parishes newsletter let alone do anything journalistic.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CK2BZlYl44
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dqxkO3QqrI
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