Knock/Eirtrade thread

dzilla · 07-02-2020 9:47am

kevinandrew wrote: »

No, the A380's large size is appealing but its design makes it near impossible.

While the A380 could theoretically fit 60% more cargo volume than a typical 747 freighter, it's maximum take off weight is only around 30% more so it would max out well before it was completely full and end up flying around empty space.

Also, the design of the aircraft isn't ideal for cargo. The 747F has a high cockpit positioned on the upper deck which allowed for a cargo nose door, this enabled large cargo to be loaded quickly. The A380 cockpit is awkwardly located in the middle of its two floors making it impossible to convert. It also has a complex upper deck floor which would likely need reinforcing along with new loading equipment to reach it at every airport.

Interesting. Is this bad design and future proofing on airbus behalf?

Tabnabs · 07-02-2020 10:50am

marcos_94 wrote: »

They can be difficult to recycle but the main reason they are buried now is because there is no profitable market for recycling just yet

Nor is there any profitable solution yet on the horizon. On top of that, the current recycling methods use more energy than production from new, thereby calling into question the effectiveness of recycling.

Nforce · 07-02-2020 11:45am

kevinandrew wrote: »

No, the A380's large size is appealing but its design makes it near impossible.

While the A380 could theoretically fit 60% more cargo volume than a typical 747 freighter, it's maximum take off weight is only around 30% more so it would max out well before it was completely full and end up flying around empty space.

Also, the design of the aircraft isn't ideal for cargo. The 747F has a high cockpit positioned on the upper deck which allowed for a cargo nose door, this enabled large cargo to be loaded quickly. The A380 cockpit is awkwardly located in the middle of its two floors making it impossible to convert. It also has a complex upper deck floor which would likely need reinforcing along with new loading equipment to reach it at every airport.

Also, the 747 was designed to be foremost a freighter from the outset, before being redesigned as a passenger aircraft.

marcos_94 · 07-02-2020 12:08pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Nor is there any profitable solution yet on the horizon. On top of that, the current recycling methods use more energy than production from new, thereby calling into question the effectiveness of recycling.

Recycling them is challenging but there are some interseting ideas being floated on reuse. Specifically turbines being decommissioned and being reconditioned for use at a more l;ocal level rather than commercial wind farm level. Taking Ireland as an example, a developer could sell a decommissioned turbine to one of the universities/colleges for use in meeting their local demand for example.

SNNUS · 07-02-2020 12:52pm

Neworder79 wrote: »

They've had several wide-body charters (bar the bigger Airbuses). TriStar, DC8, 707s from US in early days.
Last 747 was a charter in 2003 and but mostly 757 and the odd 767.

---

Here is the last batch scrapped by Eirtrade at EIKN (2x737, 1x757).
I think one may have been acquired for fire training:

Think the nearest aircraft is an A321

Lurching · 07-02-2020 1:18pm

Tenger wrote: »

The aircraft is stripped down before flying off, (interior fittings)

Not always. It's often much easier to remove the interior when you can cut a huge hole in the side of the fuselage. This is certainly the way it's done in the States.
It's tricky to do that prior to it's last flight!

cnocbui · 07-02-2020 2:37pm

Spocker wrote: »

Which makes them really hard to recycle apparently, so they are just buried

What incredible timing! https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51325101

Sexual Chocolate · 07-02-2020 2:43pm

Nforce wrote: »

Also, the 747 was designed to be foremost a freighter from the outset, before being redesigned as a passenger aircraft.

Watched a documentary before about the 747 where Boeing thought the idea of an aircraft that size was so ludicrous that it wouldn't do well for passenger travel that they designed it as a freighter as a fall back in case, as well as the threat of supersonic airliners such as Concorde and their own plans to go in that direction. Turns out it was the best thing they ever done.

If memory serves me right I think Pan Am had a part to play in it as well.

Hotblack Desiato · 07-02-2020 3:49pm

Nforce wrote: »

Also, the 747 was designed to be foremost a freighter from the outset, before being redesigned as a passenger aircraft.

Not really. Their unsuccessful entry in the C-5 competition got them thinking about commercial aircraft of that size though.

corsav6 · 07-02-2020 4:48pm

SNNUS wrote: »

Think the nearest aircraft is an A321

Definitely an a320 series aircraft.

Connacht · 07-02-2020 5:30pm

Yes, one of those 737s (wingless) is positioned at the far end of the airfield, presumably for training purposes.

billy few mates · 07-02-2020 6:49pm

As mentioned above practically all the LRUs, actuators, pumps and motors will be recertified for re-use also the engines and all the cabin interior items which are often difficult to get hold of could be salvaged.
Probably the most valuable part will be the landing gear. On most commercial aircraft the landing gear is removed for overhaul every ten years.
This is possibly why this aircraft is being scrapped at ten years, the landing gear is probably due for overhaul, it would make no sense to overhaul the LG at enormous cost if you know you are going to scrap the aircraft, it probably makes more commercial sense to scrap the aircraft when the LG falls due and salvage the landing gear, send it for overhaul and sell (or rent) it out. There's quite a big market in 'loan' sets of LG which an operator rents while they're own LG are in the shop for two or three months getting overhauled.
It's a fact of life that some aircraft are worth more dead than alive as the sum of its parts are worth more than the whole.

EchoIndia · 07-02-2020 7:06pm

Nforce wrote: »

Also, the 747 was designed to be foremost a freighter from the outset, before being redesigned as a passenger aircraft.

Source? I thought it was designed primarily as a passenger aircraft but with freighter potential.

GM228 · 07-02-2020 8:01pm

Nforce wrote: »

Also, the 747 was designed to be foremost a freighter from the outset, before being redesigned as a passenger aircraft.

It's the other way round, development began as a passenger aircraft following consultation with Pan Am.

However, whilst the development started as passenger the final designs were for three variants, all passenger, all cargo and a convertible passenger/freighter.

The confusion comes from the fact that Boeing were working on the CX-HLS (the C-5A project), when Lockheed won that contract Boeing incorporated some of the developmental stage of the CX-HLS into the 747.

cycling is fun · 07-02-2020 10:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Pretty much like everyone else, you build up sources over time some are ok and some are great. This source is accurate 99% of the time and it isn’t their fault if something falls through for the 1%. But like I always say to people, take every rumour with a health warning. For multiple reasons things fall through. Even up to the last minute with weather or tech issues.

As others have said set up a warning on FR24 for its movement. If it is inbound Knock from Dresden you will get 2-3 hours warning.

Thanks for the info I will see if I can set up an alert on fr24 more than likely I will keep an eye on here as well and maybe contact Knock Airport again next week, Monday would have suited me as I am off that day, work have said they will try and work with me as well but I don't think they will do so on 2 hrs notice, sure who knows if I miss this one there might be another along again in a year or two

Nforce · 08-02-2020 1:10am

My apologies, I'd always thought that the 747 was initially designed to be a freighter hence the location of the cockpit.

Rawr · 08-02-2020 9:30am

Nforce wrote: »

My apologies, I'd always thought that the 747 was initially designed to be a freighter hence the location of the cockpit.

If I remember right, you're correct. Boeing thought that the future of passenger travel would be super-sonic, like the newly developed Concorde. Thus the 747 was designed to operate as a heavy freighter with the entire lower deck used for storage.

Massive bonus that it turned out to be a great passenger jet too

smurfjed · 08-02-2020 9:36am

I was under the impression that the 747 started life as a contender for the USAF, but lost the contract to the Galaxy C5.

In 1963, the United States Air Force started a series of study projects on a very large strategic transport aircraft. Although the C-141 Starlifter was being introduced, officials believed that a much larger and more capable aircraft was needed, especially to carry cargo that would not fit in any existing aircraft. These studies led to initial requirements for the CX-Heavy Logistics System (CX-HLS) in March 1964 for an aircraft with a load capacity of 180,000 pounds (81,600 kg) and a speed of Mach 0.75 (500 mph or 800 km/h), and an unrefueled range of 5,000 nautical miles (9,300 km) with a payload of 115,000 pounds (52,200 kg). The payload bay had to be 17 feet (5.18 m) wide by 13.5 feet (4.11 m) high and 100 feet (30 m) long with access through doors at the front and rear.[18]

The desire to keep the number of engines to four required new engine designs with greatly increased power and better fuel economy. In May 1964, airframe proposals arrived from Boeing, Douglas, General Dynamics, Lockheed, and Martin Marietta; engine proposals were submitted by General Electric, Curtiss-Wright, and Pratt & Whitney. Boeing, Douglas, and Lockheed were given additional study contracts for the airframe, along with General Electric and Pratt & Whitney for the engines.[18]

Then Juan Trippe showed up with a crazy idea to use it for passenger services, the first 747’s almost bankrupted Boeing and Pan Am.

smurfjed · 08-02-2020 9:38am

The A380 must have cost around $300,000,000, so that’s $30,000,000 per year in capital costs alone. Is it conceivably possible for one airframe to make that amount of money per year?

Andrew33 · 08-02-2020 9:48am

smurfjed wrote: »

The A380 must have cost around $300,000,000, so that’s $30,000,000 per year in capital costs alone. Is it conceivably possible for one airframe to make that amount of money per year?

Very roughly, 500 seats at an average of $1000 per seat. That’s 1/2 million in gross revenue per flight. If the plane is full of course.

smurfjed · 08-02-2020 10:07am

$1000 per seat average?

Andrew33 · 08-02-2020 10:21am

smurfjed wrote: »

$1000 per seat average?

As I said at the start of my post “very roughly”
Most tickets between Europe and Australia or Europe and west coast US or middle east and US which would be the 380s hunting ground would be in that price range.
Moot point anyway.
The A380 has not been a commercial success otherwise they wouldn’t be shutting down production.

Idbatterim · 08-02-2020 11:27am

Converting an a380 to fire fight would be insane I take it ? I read why they wouldn’t be good for freight. But for one single run, you wouldn’t need much fuel on board...

billy few mates · 08-02-2020 12:36pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

Converting an a380 to fire fight would be insane I take it ? I read why they wouldn’t be good for freight. But for one single run, you wouldn’t need much fuel on board...

Because they're not designed as freighters and to convert them into freighters would require an STC (supplementary type certificate) by the manufacturer or a third party which would involve a huge amount of investment to have it designed and certified. It would also involve a huge amount of structural work to be done on the aircraft to cut the hole for the door and beef up the structure to allow for the changes in load forces and the installation of a cargo loading system.
With so few aircraft for conversion, so little interest in a freighter version of it it just wouldn't be worth the time and effort (and cost) of designing the STC, they would never recoup the design costs.
Far better to design an STC for a freighter conversion for aircraft that are already widely available and in cheap supply.

cnocbui · 08-02-2020 12:58pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

As I said at the start of my post “very roughly”
Most tickets between Europe and Australia or Europe and west coast US or middle east and US which would be the 380s hunting ground would be in that price range.
Moot point anyway.
The A380 has not been a commercial success otherwise they wouldn’t be shutting down production.

I have flown on the A380 at least twice on the Australia - LHR route. The tickets from memory were more like 60% per flight of that as they were return.

Andrew33 · 08-02-2020 2:58pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I have flown on the A380 at least twice on the Australia - LHR route. The tickets from memory were more like 60% per flight of that as they were return.

I hate repeating myself.
I said ROUGHLY and AVERAGE

cnocbui · 08-02-2020 3:08pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

I hate repeating myself.
I said ROUGHLY and AVERAGE

And I was just saying what actual tickets cost me. I wasn't criticising, just attempting to provide data.

Lurching · 08-02-2020 8:04pm

Andrew33 wrote: »

I hate repeating myself.
I said ROUGHLY and AVERAGE

If you're looking at pure averages and not weighted average, you're definitely not going to be less than €1,000 per seat per leg.
Particularly when you look at the likes of Emirates having at least half of the overall floor space in Business or better.

smurfjed · 08-02-2020 8:40pm

EK operate with 3 layouts, 14/76/39o, 14/76/427, 0/58/557

Dubai London two weeks from now is €480 economy / €3000 business / €5660 first

So a full load should make 512,200 / 517 = €990 per seat, based on cheap advance purchased tickets.

Andrew33 · 09-02-2020 6:52am

smurfjed wrote: »

EK operate with 3 layouts, 14/76/39o, 14/76/427, 0/58/557

Dubai London two weeks from now is €480 economy / €3000 business / €5660 first

So a full load should make 512,200 / 517 = €990 per seat, based on cheap advance purchased tickets.

So my very rough guess of 1/2 mill was pretty close.
Cheers.

Stovepipe · 09-02-2020 5:25pm

What you are forgetting is the return from cargo. If a 330 crossing the Atlantic twice a day can carry enough cargo, as well as pax baggage, to pay for the two trips and still earn a profit, then a 380 can do it. A dozen pallets of medical supplies or computer parts, combined with the earnings from the first and business classes will pay for the economy seats and fuel and wages for those trips. It actually doesnt cost much to move a person in an aeroplane when you move them in multiples of hundreds. Ryanair is the perfect example of this; put enough aircraft into service, fly them often enough and you bring the seat cost per mile down to pennies in some cases. An A380 is just a bigger version of the same thing. The down side is you wear out the aircraft very quickly, so that a ten year old 380 has reached the point where it's worth parting it out.

LiamaDelta · 09-02-2020 5:58pm

So did anyone get any photos of this yet?

mickdw · 09-02-2020 6:04pm

Not in yet

Del2005 · 10-02-2020 9:01am

It looks like it's taken off. It's not showing a destination on flight radar, is it going to Knock?

Edit

New to flight radar, it flew up Leipzig

Connacht · 10-02-2020 10:37am

Yes, it has flown Dresden - Leipzig this morning.

Andrew33 · 10-02-2020 11:06am

Connacht wrote: »

Yes, it has flown Dresden - Leipzig this morning.

Not seeing it on FR

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 11:06am

Del2005 wrote: »

It looks like it's taken off. It's not showing a destination on flight radar, is it going to Knock?

Edit

New to flight radar, it flew up Leipzig

I don't know about Knock, but it's snowing quite a bit in Clare and Tipp. I'd imagine a dry runway might be preferred.

Del2005 · 10-02-2020 11:18am

cnocbui wrote: »

I don't know about Knock, but it's snowing quite a bit in Clare and Tipp. I'd imagine a dry runway might be preferred.

Yeah wondering if they will fly in to a orange weather warning.

eastmayo · 10-02-2020 11:40am

Del2005 wrote: »

Yeah wondering if they will fly in to a orange weather warning.

Not due into knock until Friday.

circular flexing · 10-02-2020 11:40am

Andrew33 wrote: »

Not seeing it on FR

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/f-hpjb#23d0cf58

Del2005 · 10-02-2020 12:13pm

eastmayo wrote: »

Not due into knock until Friday.

Is that because of the weather?

Board Walker · 10-02-2020 12:37pm

Flying Ireland are reporting that up to 4 A380 will be scrapped at Knock.

billie1b · 10-02-2020 12:41pm

Del2005 wrote: »

Is that because of the weather?

Think it’s going to Leipzig first to have some interior parts taken out, then onto knock to be broken down

10-02-2020 2:00pm

Yeah four of them due in to Knock to be broken up.

mickdw · 10-02-2020 2:11pm

How will they handle A380.
Their hanger doesn't look near big enough.
Will they chop it in 2 outside and cut the tail off before dragging it inside.

GM228 · 10-02-2020 2:28pm

mickdw wrote: »

How will they handle A380.
Their hanger doesn't look near big enough.
Will they chop it in 2 outside and cut the tail off before dragging it inside.

Hanger is only 20,000 square feet, will be dismantled on the tarmac.

Board Walker · 10-02-2020 3:34pm

mickdw wrote: »

How will they handle A380.
Their hanger doesn't look near big enough.
Will they chop it in 2 outside and cut the tail off before dragging it inside.

Aircraft are usually scrapped outside.

mickdw · 10-02-2020 10:15pm

Board Walker wrote: »

Aircraft are usually scrapped outside.

That doesn't sound like a great plan.
Pulling apart an aluminium shell at the top of a hill in the west of Ireland alongside a working runway - what could possibly go wrong.
There was a video here of them tearing apart a jet in the hanger which made alot of sense.

Fritzbox · 10-02-2020 10:37pm

Who knows, maybe they'll cut the wings off completely, cut the tail fin and one of the horizontal stabilisers off, then roll the entire 2-storey fuselage on its side?

Should fit through the doors then, shouldn't it?

Tenger · 11-02-2020 12:05am

Look up videos of fuselage scrapping. Its a giant chain wrapped around the fuselage and chopping it into smaller sections

Knock/Eirtrade thread

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