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Liberals who aren't liberal

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Comments

  • #502
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    Still not sure I'd call him a bad person

    Said he wouldn't attend his friend's wedding because he was gay.

    That's quite shitty isn't it?


  • #503
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Said he wouldn't attend his friend's wedding because he was gay.

    That's quite shitty isn't it?

    No, I wouldn't say it is.

    He is a man of faith, gay marriage is against his beliefs, so he wouldn't attend. I don't see a problem with that. If I was a gay man and getting married, and a friend respectfully said that he wouldn't attend, I would respect his freedom to believe what he wanted.

    And given that he was friends with the gay man in question, despite being well known for his religious belief, I suspect that the friend in question also respected it.


  • #504
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    He is a man of faith.

    Yeah 'faith' isn't an excuse for shitty behaviour.


  • #505
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    DrPhilG wrote: »
    You're either deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying, or you're just not able to grasp it.

    I'll try one more time and then give up.

    There are lunatic fringes in damn near everything, OK? Football fans, political views, whatever.

    Many on the right classify everyone to the left of themselves as a "lunatic leftie". Still with me?

    Ben Shapiro, despite being a prominent right wing commentator, stressed that this is not a correct viewpoint. That the vast majority with Liberal or left wing opinions are]not lunatics, but of course (as with everything) there are those who take it to extremes.

    Those extremists, he classifies as "leftists", his definition, not mine, and those people he has no respect for.

    So neither he, nor me, believe that all on the left are lunatics. Only the most extreme qualify for that title.

    But if you're just determined to start a fight, go ahead but I'm not interested. I've been rational and calm, you're determined to twist my words and make out that I'm insulting people.

    The more you protest, the more it seems that you may be one of that vocal minority.

    You know, the one that isn't worth debating with because they speak from a point of hatred of the other side rather than logical debate?

    I was picking a fight with what you said:

    Liberals = moderate and sane.
    Leftists = lunatics.

    If that’s not what you said, grand. But you have to admit that wasn’t clear in your first post.

    There are lunatics on both sides. Unfortunately I’d include Ben Shapiro In that number. He doesn’t argue rational facts. He argues from the position of a right wing zealot and Orthodox Jew*.

    As stated his beliefs on gay marriage, reproductive rights and climate change are not rational. But I’m not sure how much he actually believes or how much he says to be a provocateur.

    * I have nothing against Jews. I don’t particularly trust devoutly religious people though as it’s an irrational belief.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #506
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    https://twitter.com/benshapiro/status/25712847277?s=21

    Ben also suggested the expulsion of Palestinians if a recall.


  • #507
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    recedite wrote: »
    You're right on the first point, but you need to look in the mirror.
    I have read the bus attack thread, and none of those claims exist in it.
    The counter claims exist alright - there are plenty of strawman arguments in other words.

    That post didn’t age well. That thread is all Muslim bashing now.


  • #508
    DrPhilG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭DrPhilG


    Brian? wrote: »
    I was picking a fight with what you said:

    Liberals = moderate and sane.
    Leftists = lunatics.

    If that’s not what you said, grand. But you have to admit that wasn’t clear in your first post.

    Fair enough, lost in translation. Apologies for being a sarcy git.

    Technically that definition of liberals and leftists is what I said, but a better explanation would be:
    Moderate and sane left wing = Liberals
    Lunatic left wing = Leftists

    Meaning that only that lunatic fringe that you and I both would label as lunatic, are what qualify as leftist.

    Although in fairness Shapiro's definition of where that lunatic fringe begins would likely be different to yours or mine.

    The point being that it annoys me when either side, left or right, paint moderates with the extremist brush and I was glad to see someone like Shapiro make the same point.


  • #509
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    That makes no sense to me, for me and most a liberal is purely a Yankee term and nothing to do with the Left


  • #510
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,812 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Actuality you know what to me liberal means right wing, just not conservative


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  • #511
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Actuality you know what to me liberal means right wing, just not conservative

    Right economically but socially anti authoritarian. That’s what it used to mean.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #512
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,125 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Brian? wrote: »
    Right economically but socially anti authoritarian. That’s what it used to mean.

    Big changes there.


  • #513
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Brian? wrote: »
    Right economically but socially anti authoritarian. That’s what it used to mean.

    Socially anti authoritarian

    Full circle

    Paradise lost


  • #514
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Socially anti authoritarian

    Full circle

    Paradise lost

    No. People just keep calling other people “liberals” without understanding what it means.

    If someone isn’t socially anti authoritarian they can’t actually be a liberal. Its pretty much that simple.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #515
    The Late Late Show
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭The Late Late Show


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Actuality you know what to me liberal means right wing, just not conservative

    Liberal is centre right and centre left. Far left is Stalin, Pol Pot and Ceausescu and far right is Hitler, Gilead (both real and The Handmaid's Tale versions!!!) and ISIS.


  • #516
    1641
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭1641


    The Late Late Show wrote: »
    Liberal is centre right and centre left. Far left is Stalin, Pol Pot and Ceausescu and far right is Hitler, Gilead (both real and The Handmaid's Tale versions!!!) and ISIS.


    You forget what was probably the biggest mass murderer of them all - Mao.


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  • #517
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,549 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    The Late Late Show wrote: »
    Liberal is centre right and centre left. Far left is Stalin, Pol Pot and Ceausescu and far right is Hitler, Gilead (both real and The Handmaid's Tale versions!!!) and ISIS.

    Ah, that ignores libertarians who want people to be free from government interference. So for example they would oppose mandatory seat belts because you should be free to choose whether to take the risk of wearing a seat belt (nanny state etc.)

    And the free market libertarians (neo-liberals) who want no government Interference in business. No interference in workers pay and conditions so Pay people as little as you can, no unions and no environmental regulations for example.

    They're both very much in the liberal camp. But for obvious reasons, in America, libertarians run for president amongst the republicans. Ron Paul for example.

    Republicans are socially conservative but liberal when it comes to health care, business regulations and conditions for workers.

    It's more complicated than left/right.


  • #518
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    The Late Late Show wrote: »
    Liberal is centre right and centre left. Far left is Stalin, Pol Pot and Ceausescu and far right is Hitler, Gilead (both real and The Handmaid's Tale versions!!!) and ISIS.

    You’ve only named the authoritarian far left and far right.

    There’s the anarchists and libertarian socialists on the left who are completely against any form of centralised government. A small minority of the left but they exist. Some are even pacifists.

    Likewise on the right, you have anarcho capitalists who also want a stateless society, or as small a government as absolutely possible. Again, some are pacifists.

    So left/right doesn’t actually cover everyone, particularly at the fringes.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #519
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,315 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Brian? wrote: »
    No. People just keep calling other people “liberals” without understanding what it means.

    If someone isn’t socially anti authoritarian they can’t actually be a liberal. Its pretty much that simple.

    The problem is that people mix up the meaning of socially liberal and economically liberal. And it's the fault of US politics and the people who buy into that crap. They created this boogie man liberal who is trying to tell people what they can and can't do.


  • #520
    The Late Late Show
    Closed Accounts Posts: 840 ✭✭✭The Late Late Show


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Ah, that ignores libertarians who want people to be free from government interference. So for example they would oppose mandatory seat belts because you should be free to choose whether to take the risk of wearing a seat belt (nanny state etc.)

    And the free market libertarians (neo-liberals) who want no government Interference in business. No interference in workers pay and conditions so Pay people as little as you can, no unions and no environmental regulations for example.

    They're both very much in the liberal camp. But for obvious reasons, in America, libertarians run for president amongst the republicans. Ron Paul for example.

    Republicans are socially conservative but liberal when it comes to health care, business regulations and conditions for workers.

    It's more complicated than left/right.

    This is it exactly. People tend to focus on issues and can be liberal on one front and not so much on the other. A recent example are these pro-life anti abortion types in America who now face the decision on the death penalty and many have concluded they are opposed to it because it is not pro-life.


  • #521
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,131 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Talking about Liberals who are not liberal. I see Kittie Holland made a fool of herself on Twitter the other day. She labelled someone a ‘Terf’ and a Transphobe before being told she was actually a Transgender woman.


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  • #522
    Mad_maxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    normanoffside wrote: »
    Talking about Liberals who are not liberal. I see Kittie Holland made a fool of herself on Twitter the other day. She labelled someone a ‘Terf’ and a Transphobe before being told she was actually a Transgender woman.

    Kitty Holland is a communist


  • #523
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    The Late Late Show wrote: »
    This is it exactly. People tend to focus on issues and can be liberal on one front and not so much on the other. A recent example are these pro-life anti abortion types in America who now face the decision on the death penalty and many have concluded they are opposed to it because it is not pro-life.

    That's it though. People are complex. You can be all for gay rights and racist it doesn't mean the whole LGBQT movement is hypocritical. Mitch McConnell swears allegiance to the flag but hates the American public, complex.


  • #524
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    normanoffside wrote: »
    Talking about Liberals who are not liberal. I see Kittie Holland made a fool of herself on Twitter the other day. She labelled someone a ‘Terf’ and a Transphobe before being told she was actually a Transgender woman.

    How do you know she’s a liberal?

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • #525
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,632 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Brian? wrote: »
    How do you know she’s a liberal?

    A liberal what...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • #526
    Danzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,125 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    normanoffside wrote: »
    Talking about Liberals who are not liberal. I see Kittie Holland made a fool of herself on Twitter the other day. She labelled someone a ‘Terf’ and a Transphobe before being told she was actually a Transgender woman.

    Anyone who has ever used the term Terf, as serious word is going to be a massive knob head.

    Regardless of their politics.


  • #527
    normanoffside
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,131 ✭✭✭✭normanoffside


    Mad_maxx wrote: »
    Kitty Holland is a communist
    Brian? wrote: »
    How do you know she’s a liberal?


    Well she didn’t get this ‘woke’ stuff from the Communist Manifesto anyway.


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