Objections to Apple's data center in Galway

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2015 2:11am #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/apple-plan-for-850m-complex-facing-delay-of-six-months-1.2373374

Amazing people are not punished for wasting time and putting projects at risk. The local wild life? A fcuking data center. Really?

What do you think of serial objectors? The same happened with Intel 10 years a go. They created an additional 2,000 jobs after some local idiot objected to An Bord Pleanala on some spurious local grounds. The whole project was put at risk. Luckily they lost. There was no impact locally except more jobs and investment.

They say one of the complaints is on local wildlife - i.e do nothing, don't build the thing.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 2:41am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/apple-plan-for-850m-complex-facing-delay-of-six-months-1.2373374

Amazing people are not punished for wasting time and putting projects at risk. The local wild life? A fcuking data center. Really?

What do you think of serial objectors? The same happened with Intel 10 years a go. They created an additional 2,000 jobs after some local idiot objected to An Bord Pleanala on some spurious local grounds. The whole project was put at risk. Luckily they lost. There was no impact locally except more jobs and investment.

They say one of the complaints is on local wildlife - i.e do nothing, don't build the thing.

If you live in a democracy one of the requirements is that the democratic laws are followed. These people are well within their rights to comment and pay for the right to do so - Ireland is one of the few countries that has a pay to play planning system...ABP fees are hefty.

I'm tired of the same old "but...jaaaabs" silliness from people who don't want or even understand proper planning in Ireland.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 2:51am

http://www.eplanning.ie/GalwayCC/AppFileRefDetails/15488/0

There are over 20 observations to that application in the original file. Hardly the work of "serial objectors", two are by long standing environmental activists, others by "concerned residents".

Not everyone can afford to appeal to ABP.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2015 2:54am

MadsL wrote: »

If you live in a democracy one of the requirements is that the democratic laws are followed. These people are well within their rights to comment and pay for the right to do so - Ireland is one of the few countries that has a pay to play planning system...ABP fees are hefty.

I'm tired of the same old "but...jaaaabs" silliness from people who don't want or even understand proper planning in Ireland.

Yeah - are other countries entertaining such stupid objections to vital projects? I know the Chinese don't. Maybe we need to take a leaf from their book and get stuff built without this nonsense.

R.D. aka MR.D · 01-10-2015 2:55am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I know the Chinese don't.

Believe me, you don't want Ireland to turn into China.

endacl · 01-10-2015 2:59am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What do you think of serial objectors?

Same as I think of serial indignant thread starters.

:

MadsL · 01-10-2015 3:02am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yeah - are other countries entertaining such stupid objections to vital projects? I know the Chinese don't. Maybe we need to take a leaf from their book and get stuff built without this nonsense.

Have you read them?

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2015 3:02am

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Believe me, you don't want Ireland to turn into China.

Believe me I think we need to. Too much clown behaviour allowed without consequence. There should be no appeal in my opinion. Disband the bord pleanala quango and get things built. MINIMUM 4 week yes/no to planning applications. No appeal.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 3:07am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Believe me I think we need to. Too much clown behaviour allowed without consequence. There should be no appeal in my opinion. Disband the bord pleanala quango and get things built. MINIMUM 4 week yes/no to planning applications. No appeal.

Are you old enough to see what happened during the last time build as you like was tried in Ireland?

R.D. aka MR.D · 01-10-2015 3:07am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Believe me I think we need to. Too much clown behaviour allowed without consequence. There should be no appeal in my opinion. Disband the bord pleanala quango and get things built. MINIMUM 4 week yes/no to planning applications. No appeal.

Have you ever been to China?

I lived there for a year and it's really ugly. A horrible horrible place with ugly building after ugly building.

Seriously, you would not want Ireland to turn into that. Imagine waking up every morning and looking out your window at what appears to be some terrible dystopia but it's the place you have to live forever. Where once there was farmland and even maybe a mountain, there is a big grey building.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-10-2015 3:09am

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Have you ever been to China?

I lived there for a year and it's really ugly. A horrible horrible place with ugly building after ugly building.

Seriously, you would not want Ireland to turn into that. Imagine waking up every morning and looking out your window at what appears to be some terrible dystopia but it's the place you have to live forever. Where once there was farmland and even maybe a mountain, there is a big grey building.

Clearly you don't think the time it takes to get anything big built in Ireland is absurd...

You are probably one of the same people who will complain about bad roads or Dublin's low rise obsession.

R.D. aka MR.D · 01-10-2015 3:17am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Clearly you don't think the time it takes to get anything big built in Ireland is absurd...

You are probably one of the same people who will complain about bad roads or Dublin's low rise obsession.

I'm not arguing against the point that things take too long to get built. I'm against pointing to China in any positive way especially when it comes to construction.

I actually agree that things should be sped up but from my limited understanding, it seems like it's the people who make the decision who have said it's going to take them until next year to decide.

I'm all for high rise in Dublin. I currently live in Japan and see how it can be done in a way that isn't ugly. Bad roads? Sure, I'd have to be paying road tax to complain about that.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 3:24am

MadsL wrote: »

Have you read them?

Ahem.

They are "stupid" but you haven't even taken the time to read their comments.

See my point about democracy, you are also able to make comments on any planning application.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 3:27am

With no appeal system, how would you prevent brown envelope planning corruption?

Carlos Orange · 01-10-2015 4:20am

MadsL wrote: »

Hardly the work of "serial objectors", two are by long standing environmental activists

Have these long standing environmental activists a record of objecting to things one after another?

Turtwig · 01-10-2015 4:22am

MadsL wrote: »

Ahem.

They are "stupid" but you haven't even taken the time to read their comments.

See my point about democracy, you are also able to make comments on any planning application.

Are you talking to yourself?

MadsL · 01-10-2015 5:26am

psinno wrote: »

Have these long standing environmental activists a record of objecting to things one after another?

They'd be poor activists if all they did was tut-tut all day. Oddly enough developments with an environmental impact have a habit of taking place "one after another"

Turtwig wrote: »

Are you talking to yourself?

Trying to get Kermit to admit that he hasn't even read the thing he is complaining about.

Carlos Orange · 01-10-2015 5:34am

MadsL wrote: »

They'd be poor activists if all they did was tut-tut all day. Oddly enough developments with an environmental impact have a habit of taking place "one after another"

So they are serial objectors then.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 5:44am

psinno wrote: »

So they are serial objectors then.

Not by the pejorative definition with which you and Kermit mean it.

Activists draw the attention of the planning authority to Irish and EU Environmental law, and act within the planning laws. Do you think the same is true of Councils, developers and multinationals?

I'm baffled as to why people have a problem with those who act within the law of the land to draw attention to those in authority ignoring the very same laws.

01-10-2015 8:05am

Planning permission and building regulations are so bothersome. Sure no building didn't comply with planning until 64, and we wouldn't have issues with Priory Hall or Longboat Quay if it wasn't for regulations.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 4:57pm

There's a serious problem with the energy usage of this data centre - it will consume at peak capacity some 8% of Ireland's total energy consumption and provide only some 200 full time jobs.

This has serious implications for Ireland's emissions targets and fines relating to failures to meet those targets.

A very detailed analysis is provided in the planning observation written by David Hughes, architect.
http://gccapps.galwaycoco.ie/ViewPlanningDocuments/ViewDjVu.aspx?ref=1979455

Sometimes these "serial objectors" do know what they are talking about.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2015 5:03pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yeah - are other countries entertaining such stupid objections to vital projects? I know the Chinese don't. Maybe we need to take a leaf from their book and get stuff built without this nonsense.

.. and you'll be the first one in here starting threads about out alleged "democracy" not listenign to the concerns of the people.

ohnonotgmail · 01-10-2015 5:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Planning permission and building regulations are so bothersome. Sure no building didn't comply with planning until 64, and we wouldn't have issues with Priory Hall or Longboat Quay if it wasn't for regulations.

sometimes it can be really hard to tell if somebody is being serious or satirical.

01-10-2015 5:54pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

sometimes it can be really hard to tell if somebody is being serious or satirical.

Tongue firmly in cheek.

The planning system in Ireland isn't bad, the only issue being the decades of scandalous development and the backhanders that secured zoning and so on. But applications are well notified, transparent, the objections are also transparent. The issue I would have is that ABP is a bit of a lottery, have seen them make some head scratching decisions. I certainly wouldn't throw everything out because, in a totally transparent manner, as befits any democracy, people have objected. If we seek to curb objections, then it's gonna be back to the crazy days again. It's not like objections should come as the slightest surprise to the applicants, they'll just have to deal with them and let the project stand or fall on its merits and not because we limit the ability to object.

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 5:57pm

NIMBY's strike again. Want all the benefits of modern living without living near any of the needed infrastructure. Would be interesting to find out if they are long term residents I.E few generations or City folk that moved. I mean between pylons beaming out death rays, And wind turbines chopping up flocks of birds and stopping people apparently sleeping.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2015 6:10pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

NIMBY's strike again. Want all the benefits of modern living without living near any of the needed infrastructure. Would be interesting to find out if they are long term residents I.E few generations or City folk that moved. I mean between pylons beaming out death rays, And wind turbines chopping up flocks of birds and stopping people apparently sleeping.

I'd hardly call a data centre "needed infrastructure". Dunno what the **** you;re talking about in the last sentence.

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 6:13pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'd hardly call a data centre "needed infrastructure". Dunno what the **** you;re talking about in the last sentence.

I'm guessing one thinks their data is actually stored in the clouds :pac:

c_man · 01-10-2015 6:17pm

I'm not surprised in the slightest. Apple is just too big of a company/house-hold name for any of this to get through without... expected objections.

But still fair play to the lads using the law of the land and machinery of the state to keep things in check. Just like the guys who lodge objections to referenda results right?

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 6:20pm

c_man wrote: »

I'm not surprised in the slightest. Apple is just too big of a company/house-hold name for any of this to get through without... expected objections.

But still fair play to the lads using the law of the land and machinery of the state to keep things in check. Just like the guys who lodge objections to referenda results right?

I sense faces getting red over this one. It's only legitimate if everyone agrees on the hot button topic.

Paramite Pie · 01-10-2015 6:28pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yeah - are other countries entertaining such stupid objections to vital projects? I know the Chinese don't. Maybe we need to take a leaf from their book and get stuff built without this nonsense.

Most clueless and ignorant post I've read in a long time. The Yangtze River dam flooded 13 cities, 140 towns and 1,352 villages -- as well as many ancient temples like Zhang Fei's temple which was 1700 years old. Another 1300 archaeological sites were submerged.

It's gone down in history as one of the most destructive and inefficient constructions in human history. China has a long legacy of dodgy planning and corruption.

Maybe they should've listened to objections?

jmayo · 01-10-2015 6:29pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Yeah - are other countries entertaining such stupid objections to vital projects? I know the Chinese don't. Maybe we need to take a leaf from their book and get stuff built without this nonsense.

Better still lets adopt the North Korean approach.
Ever wonder why so many people died because of that big explosion in China a while back ?
Maybe it had something to do with how chemicals were stored so close to residential area ?
Nah lets go the Chinese route and next time we build something lets just evict the natives and take the land off them.
Better still throw them in jail when they object.

Feckin hell ever think of a career with Shell.
They might give you a job in Nigeria or even Mayo.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Believe me I think we need to. Too much clown behaviour allowed without consequence. There should be no appeal in my opinion. Disband the bord pleanala quango and get things built. MINIMUM 4 week yes/no to planning applications. No appeal.

Yeah shure with all our fantastic regulatory bodies there would be no chance of anything being built half ar**ed.

Which bar were you leaning against when you that brainwave. :rolleyes:

darkpagandeath wrote: »

NIMBY's strike again. Want all the benefits of modern living without living near any of the needed infrastructure. Would be interesting to find out if they are long term residents I.E few generations or City folk that moved. I mean between pylons beaming out death rays, And wind turbines chopping up flocks of birds and stopping people apparently sleeping.

Having an Apple data centre so that eejits who pay for their Chinese built over priced items can download apps, sync using icloud or download the latest version of ios would hardly be termed needed infrastructure.

Of course they would like to plant their data centre here, after all we are so generous in helping them avoid tax that other less connected and influential companies actually have to pay.

I wonder where you live ?
Let me guess it aint anywhere near a massive data centre, massive pylon.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2015 6:35pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I'm guessing one thinks their data is actually stored in the clouds :pac:

I'm guessing one has never heard of an office in a city, but feel free to keep missing the point.

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 6:38pm

jmayo wrote: »

Better still lets adopt the North Korean approach.
Ever wonder why so many people died because of that big explosion in China a while back ?

Yeah shure with all our fantastic regulatory bodies there would be no chance of anything being built half ar**ed.

Which bar were you leaning against when you that brainwave. :rolleyes:

Having an Apple data centre so that eejits who pay for their Chinese built over priced items can download apps, sync using icloud or download the latest version of ios would hardly be termed needed infrastructure.

Of course they would like to plant their data centre here, after we are so generous in helping them avoid tax that other less connected and influential companies actually have to pay.

I wonder where you live ?
Let me guess it aint anywhere near a massive data centre, massive pylon.

In a very large Urban area I have no choice in regards to pylons and all that other infrastructure. I don't live in the country and look out going look at this untouched by man's hand view. unfortunately Ireland's view is completely man made. I bet some people think filed's walls and roads were here before anyone moved over the Ireland aeon's ago. :pac:

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 6:39pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm guessing one has never heard of an office in a city, but feel free to keep missing the point.

How would one plan to run an environmentally cooled data centre in an office in a city ?

Paramite Pie · 01-10-2015 6:44pm

c_man wrote: »

But still fair play to the lads using the law of the land and machinery of the state to keep things in check. Just like the guys who lodge objections to referenda results right?

It's an important aspect of a democracy to be able to challenge these things. Just because don't support that objection, doesn't mean I didn't support their legal right to do so. Big difference.

Also they had no legal basis to support that objection. Non-voters are not counted as 'No' voters despite their bs claims.

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I sense faces getting red over this one. It's only legitimate if everyone agrees on the hot button topic.

Why? Two completely different scenarios.
The guys who lodged objections to the referendum had their case dismissed -- there wasn't sufficient grounds.

Apparently, they claim we weren't allowed to amend the constitution on marriage because the Amendment contradicted the previous article on marriage. Not a legitimate legal argument. Thrown out.

Got anything better than that guys?:rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2015 6:52pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How would one plan to run an environmentally cooled data centre in an office in a city ?

Leave the windows open. :pac::pac:

Again, feel free to miss the point: "needed infrastructure" are things like hospitals, schools, emergency services and public transport. Society can't function withotu these, but it can without data centres.

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 6:55pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Leave the windows open. :pac::pac:

Again, feel free to miss the point: "needed infrastructure" are things like hospitals, schools, emergency services and public transport. Society can't function withotu these, but it can without data centres.

Really where would you plan holding banking information for example in filing cabinets ? Data centres are now very valuable infrastructure. we are after all in the Information age. :pac:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-10-2015 6:58pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Really where would you plan holding banking information for example in filing cabinets ? Data centres are now very valuable infrastructure. :pac:

Oh, so it's been downgraded from "needed" to "valuable"...?

I've made my point. Public services are essential. Individcual private concerns aren't. Case closed. In any case, I'm guessing by the constant use of :pac::pac::pac: that you're being sarcastic, in which case there's no point carrying on.

asherbassad · 01-10-2015 7:04pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/apple-plan-for-850m-complex-facing-delay-of-six-months-1.2373374

Amazing people are not punished for wasting time and putting projects at risk. The local wild life? A fcuking data center. Really?

What do you think of serial objectors? The same happened with Intel 10 years a go. They created an additional 2,000 jobs after some local idiot objected to An Bord Pleanala on some spurious local grounds. The whole project was put at risk. Luckily they lost. There was no impact locally except more jobs and investment.

They say one of the complaints is on local wildlife - i.e do nothing, don't build the thing.

Are you familiar with the term "trade-off"? Are you familiar with the term "marginal returns"?

I would recommend you delve deeper into the intricacies of issues like this. I don't know how many jobs Apple's data centre will bring but as an engineer I can tell you that it won't be jump starting the local economy anytime soon. Data centres are "lghts out" operations....kind of like morgues except the dead bodies are servers and kept just as cold.

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 7:05pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Oh, so it's been downgraded from "needed" to "valuable"...?

I've made my point. Public services are essential. Individcual private concerns aren't. Case closed. In any case, I'm guessing by the constant use of :pac::pac::pac: that you're being sarcastic, in which case there's no point carrying on.

If one thinks data centres are not really needed. On you go and turn all of them off in Ireland and wait about 2 seconds before the country is completely crippled. Have fun trying to do any banking, shopping basically anything. Why does one think in war time now Data centres are on first strike lists as fastest way to bring down economys. Where does one think the essential public services store their information ? on floppy disks ? :eek:

Carlos Orange · 01-10-2015 10:08pm

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Leave the windows open. :pac::pac:

Again, feel free to miss the point: "needed infrastructure" are things like hospitals, schools, emergency services and public transport. Society can't function withotu these, but it can without data centres.

Modern society could not function without data centers.

end of the road · 01-10-2015 11:20pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/apple-plan-for-850m-complex-facing-delay-of-six-months-1.2373374

Amazing people are not punished for wasting time and putting projects at risk. The local wild life? A fcuking data center. Really?

What do you think of serial objectors? The same happened with Intel 10 years a go. They created an additional 2,000 jobs after some local idiot objected to An Bord Pleanala on some spurious local grounds. The whole project was put at risk. Luckily they lost. There was no impact locally except more jobs and investment.

They say one of the complaints is on local wildlife - i.e do nothing, don't build the thing.

why and for what would they be punished for. putting projects supposibly at risk and wasting time in your opinion is not punishable

MadsL · 01-10-2015 11:24pm

Kermit has gotten a bit quiet. Perhaps he is off reading the submissions?

end of the road · 01-10-2015 11:26pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Believe me I think we need to. Too much clown behaviour allowed without consequence. There should be no appeal in my opinion. Disband the bord pleanala quango and get things built. MINIMUM 4 week yes/no to planning applications. No appeal.

well we have appeals, we aren't going to be like china, and you will except it. you want ireland to be like china, go live in china

darkpagandeath · 01-10-2015 11:45pm

end of the road wrote: »

well we have appeals, we aren't going to be like china, and you will except it. you want ireland to be like china, go live in china

Problem is with these NIMBY's is they would not care if it was built somewhere in Dublin.

MadsL · 01-10-2015 11:57pm

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Problem is with these NIMBY's is they would not care if it was built somewhere in Dublin.

The concerns raised go far beyond NIMBYism, hosting international data centres means Ireland takes the hit for the long-term failure to achieve emissions targets, for which Ireland gets fined. Did you miss that point?

Again, the projected consumption of this facility is 240MW, which Apple claim will be powered by wind from day 1. That capacity simply does not exist at present so will eat into the gains that Ireland has made in renewable energy, netting no growth in the percentage of total power from renewables.

It's like planning a small city in terms of power consumption, but boy are some of the posters here missing the bigger picture.

c_man · 02-10-2015 12:05am

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Problem is with these NIMBY's is they would not care if it was built somewhere in Dublin.

Clonee, but still :pac: http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/facebook-gets-go-ahead-for-200m-meath-data-centre-1.2301981

Carlos Orange · 02-10-2015 12:14am

MadsL wrote: »

Again, the projected consumption of this facility is 240MW, which Apple claim will be powered by wind from day 1. That capacity simply does not exist at present so will eat into the gains that Ireland has made in renewable energy, netting no growth in the percentage of total power from renewables.

Apple investing hundreds of millions of Euro in renewable energy is a bad thing. I'm with you so far.

MadsL · 02-10-2015 12:51am

psinno wrote: »

Apple investing hundreds of millions of Euro in renewable energy is a bad thing. I'm with you so far.

Where did they say they would be directly investing in renewable energy. Ever hear of greenwash?

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/32208-why-is-apple-lying-about-powering-its-data-centers-with-renewable-energy

donegaLroad · 02-10-2015 12:56am

A Norwegian company were planning on setting up a specialised fish farm in Killybegs this year. The by product from the fish farmed was to be used in the manufacture of pills and tablets.. the finer points I am not 100% sure of.

The company needed a few thousand square metres of sea surface area to set up the farms, they were to create 50 jobs with possibility of expansion in the near future.

It was all looking promising until An Taisce objected.

There was an appeal to this objection and I haven't heard any outcome yet.

In the meanwhile the Norwegian company were looking at setting up in Scotland instead.

Thank you An Taisce.

MadsL · 02-10-2015 1:19am

donegaLroad wrote: »

A Norwegian company were planning on setting up a specialised fish farm in Killybegs this year. The by product from the fish farmed was to be used in the manufacture of pills and tablets.. the finer points I am not 100% sure of.

The company needed a few thousand square metres of sea surface area to set up the farms, they were to create 50 jobs with possibility of expansion in the near future.

It was all looking promising until An Taisce objected.

There was an appeal to this objection and I haven't heard any outcome yet.

In the meanwhile the Norwegian company were looking at setting up in Scotland instead.

Thank you An Taisce.

http://www.thejournal.ie/an-taisce-says-it-saved-state-from-e752m-in-impaired-loans-419128-Apr2012/

Thank you An Taisce

Objections to Apple's data center in Galway

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