Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

Fann Linn · 28-11-2018 8:13am

political analyst wrote: »

If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that paying special allowances to public-sector workers in cities is what happens in Britain.

The INMO had an unsuccessful strike in 2007 in which one of its demands was a special allowance for nurses in Dublin.

Not only public sector in Britain. When I lived in Liverpool we got higher wages than our colleagues in Scotland but less than our colleagues in the south of England primarily to reflect the cost of housing even though we all did comparable same jobs.

Calina · 28-11-2018 8:23am

limnam wrote: »

Christ.

She's young. She can share. Get a room in a house for 280e a month.

That leaves her with over 1300e a month with shared bills.

God forbid we're ever in a_real_ crisis.

not everyone coming into the CS is 'young' and not everyone older comes in at principal officer level.

And I paid 320 pounds for a room in Dublin in 2000.

I dount if you will find a room for 280E in Dublin now. I emigrated 2 years ago because salary versus rent was an extremely fast route to bankruptcy.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 8:28am

"It is one of the great failures of Government policy that people like teachers, gardaí, nurses, doctors, firemen and on and on cannot afford to buy a house or apartment and live in Ireland, most especially in Dublin."

It might be true that some teachers and nurses can't buy a house in Dublin right now -- but exactly the same thing holds true for most private-sector workers.

But it's utter nonsense to suggest that "teachers, gardai, nurses, doctors ... cannot afford ... to live in Ireland."

Last time I checked, Ireland extended outside of Dublin, and includes many areas that don't have eye-watering rents and house prices. Recent figures published by the Irish Times show that you can rent a 5-bedroom house in Kerry for €869 a month and a 5-bedroom house in Mayo for €793 a month.

A newly hired primary teacher starts off on €36k a year, which is significantly higher than the average Irish starting graduate salary of €28k a year. If you have a teacher/guard couple in their early 30s settling down and getting married in rural Ireland, they could be on around €100k gross between them easily, and will have no trouble living comfortably.

In many cases, I suspect that "We can't afford to live" really means "We aren't being kept in the style to which we have become accustomed." It's a blatant grab for even higher public-sector wages.

Calina · 28-11-2018 8:34am

Myah Flaky Tablecloth wrote: »

"It is one of the great failures of Government policy that people like teachers, gardaí, nurses, doctors, firemen and on and on cannot afford to buy a house or apartment and live in Ireland, most especially in Dublin."

It might be true that some teachers and nurses can't buy a house in Dublin right now -- but exactly the same thing holds true for most private-sector workers.

But it's utter nonsense to suggest that "teachers, gardai, nurses, doctors ... cannot afford ... to live in Ireland."

Last time I checked, Ireland extended outside of Dublin, and includes many areas that don't have eye-watering rents and house prices. Recent figures published by the Irish Times show that you can rent a 5-bedroom house in Kerry for €869 a month and a 5-bedroom house in Mayo for €793 a month.

A newly hired primary teacher starts off on €36k a year, which is significantly higher than the average Irish starting graduate salary of €28k a year. If you have a teacher/guard couple in their early 30s settling down and getting married in rural Ireland, they could be on around €100k gross between them easily, and will have no trouble living comfortably.

In many cases, I suspect that "We can't afford to live" really means "We aren't being kept in the style to which we have become accustomed." It's a blatant grab for even higher public-sector wages.

Please. There are clerical, executive and probably admin officers starting off on less and most of those jobs tend to be in Dublin And not every one marries a guard. Commuting to and from Dublin is awful.

Stop cherry picking. And stop the let them eat cake act.

cournioni · 28-11-2018 8:35am

Those who can’t do, teach.

If we are to hike their wages/allowances then the cost of everything else will rise as well.

A bit of commuting won’t do them any harm either, if they’re that worried about rent prices. Sure most of them will be out of the schools before rush hour hits anyway.

CrankyHaus · 28-11-2018 8:41am

This measure will divert public funds to artificially push up rents and property prices yet is presented as being taken in the public interest. Why not just put the money into building more social and affordable houses in Dublin to bring down the accomodation costs for everyone working there?

I wonder how many rental properties this unidentified "Principal" writing the article owns?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 8:48am

Calina wrote: »

Please. There are clerical, executive and probably admin officers starting off on less and most of those jobs tend to be in Dublin And not every one marries a guard. Commuting to and from Dublin is awful.

Stop cherry picking. And stop the let them eat cake act.

The article specifically claims that teachers, guards, and doctors can no longer afford to live in Ireland. So nobody is "cherry picking." Those are the specific professions mentioned by the author of the article.

Is it true that teachers, guards, and doctors can't afford to live in the country? No. Teachers and guards have a very good standard of living in Ireland, especially outside of Dublin. Doctors are among the highest earners in rural counties.

If you want to make a point about low-paid clerical staff in Dublin, fine. But that's not what the article is talking about.

Addle · 28-11-2018 8:52am

Decentralise more departments.
Free up accommodation for those who remain in cities.
Give a boost to other locations.
Win, win?!

WinnyThePoo · 28-11-2018 8:54am

limnam wrote: »

mammajamma wrote: »

A friends younger sister started in the public service last year, she's getting a smidgeon over minimum wage yet living/renting in Dublin. Don't know how she does it.

I think a lot of people are getting confused with a 50 year public servant who has all the hefty increments and bonuses already built up, versus someone who's trying to get their life off the ground.

Yet another 2 tier system.

Christ.

She's young. She can share. Get a room in a house for 280e a month.

That leaves her with over 1300e a month with shared bills.

God forbid we're ever in a_real_ crisis.

Where can you get a room for 280 euro a month?.

KevinCavan · 28-11-2018 8:56am

One argument in favour of paying the Dublin teachers more would be: In other professions people move to Dublin because the salary they would get in Dublin would be way better than in Mayo or other counties, whereas a Mayo teacher in a low cost rural area gets paid the same as a Dublin teacher who could be paying €1000 in rent per month.

thegills · 28-11-2018 9:06am

Force all landlords who are PS to rent out their properties to fellow PS at affordable rent levels

namloc1980 · 28-11-2018 9:10am

thegills wrote: »

Force all landlords who are PS to rent out their properties to fellow PS at affordable rent levels

What kind of proposal is that? Why not force everyone to rent out at affordable levels? What is an affordable level anyway??

machiavellianme · 28-11-2018 9:12am

Ronin Salty Hotel wrote: »

We might as well blame travellers for people becoming teachers, nurses etc. !!

Btw...teachers on leave from their jobs don't get paid while not working. But let's not allow facts get in the way.

Wrong, they get paid annual leave. And presumably get paid sick leave.

KevinCavan · 28-11-2018 9:13am

A lot of people can avoid paying tax, that are outside the public service and that is how they can afford to become landlords. I’d imagine most builders and tradesmen have more than one house, as a result of doing cash jobs at a “cash price.”

wirelessdude01 · 28-11-2018 9:15am

thegills wrote:

Force all landlords who are PS to rent out their properties to fellow PS at affordable rent levels

Such populist rubbish. Look Dublin needs something like they have in London. Differential bands of pay depending on where you work. Also key lower paid workers such as teachers/police/first responders have access to subsidised accomodation (only catch being in London this accommodation was generally in not very nice areas).

sbsquarepants · 28-11-2018 9:21am

Jaysus those poor, poor, teachers - some of them I hear even have to consider working some of their 4 months holidays just to make ends meet.
Similarly the poor cops, having to eat cornflakes for dinner again are they?

I must know a very unrepresentative bunch of cops, teachers and nurses so - cos every single one I know of is doing quite nicely for themselves. Never mind the wages - which are not too shabby in the first place, then there's the perks, the pensions.

It's not like people begrudge them, they do important jobs, they should be well paid. But lay off the poor mouth bolloxology.

I really wish they'd just shut the fúck up and get on with the jobs they're paid very well for - OR and bear with me now, this is a crazy idea, but hear me out - they could do something else for a living!

sbsquarepants · 28-11-2018 9:28am

mammajamma wrote: »

A friends younger sister started in the public service last year, she's getting a smidgeon over minimum wage yet living/renting in Dublin. Don't know how she does it.

I think a lot of people are getting confused with a 50 year public servant who has all the hefty increments and bonuses already built up, versus someone who's trying to get their life off the ground.

Yet another 2 tier system.

Are you suggesting that your friends younger sister should be paid (out of the public kitty) the same amount as her colleague with 25 or 30 years experience, because she would like a nice house?

Incidentally, do you know of any person, working at any level, in any job, who wouldn't like a nice house?

Darkglasses · 28-11-2018 9:36am

limnam wrote: »

No one was "shafted" Their employer was bankrupt. Financially embarrassed. They were been paid too much anyway.

How were new people post-Haddington Road being paid too much?

_Kaiser_ · 28-11-2018 9:36am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wasn't it a sub department of the Ministry of Fun years ago? Can't remember the last time I genuinely laughed me b*ll*cks off reading a thread in here tbh.

We're all getting older as a user base (think there's stats showing that) and issues like this and the others referred to become more serious when you're no longer sharing with a few mates in your early twenties

Anyway all the notion of paying public servants a extra rent allowance (don't gardai get this anyway?) would do is up rents for EVERYONE

JupiterKid · 28-11-2018 9:44am

Ah, the housing crisis/scandal making - as one poster opined - the once jocular and lighthearted After Hours into an embittered, let's attack the perceived cosseted group du jour - Angry Hours. Its pretty sad...

Anyone with half a brain should see that the current govt have been utterly abysmal to the point of wanton neglect in even beginning to deal with the housing scandal. They simply do not care and, even if they truly did, are totally incompetent in tacking the issues. There's a neo-liberal free market must trump common good ideology in place and those losing out are turning against each other.

People having to do 4 hour commutes each way daily attacking those on social welfare who apparently are all entitled to their "forever" homes or those in the public sector who do vital jobs in education, healthcare and public order. I can assure you Leo V, Eoghan Murphy and chums are smirking at this circus of blame and anger.

Classic divide and conquer scenario. Well, direct your anger where it should be - at the current shower in power. Go out this coming Saturday to protest the housing scandal, punish them at the ballot box in the forthcoming election. Do something that might make a difference rather than wasting energy blaming other losers in the game of housing.

Fann Linn · 28-11-2018 9:44am

Addle wrote: »

Decentralise more departments.
Free up accommodation for those who remain in cities.
Give a boost to other locations.
Win, win?!

Didn't we try that before:Welcome to Parlon Country'.

_Brian · 28-11-2018 9:49am

To be honest I disagree with special payments to PS so they can afford rents or purchase of houses, I say that even though my wife is a PS.

PS have a decent pay structure and they need to make their own way same as the rest of us have to. It signals a failure of the whole system if people earning above average wage need supports to live.

If they can’t afford Dublin initially they need to cut their cloth and move to more rural areas to work so they can afford to live. Or accept a long commute same as tens of thousands of people for whom wage subs are impossible.

sbsquarepants · 28-11-2018 9:52am

_Brian wrote: »

If they can’t afford Dublin initially they need to cut their cloth and move to more rural areas to work so they can afford to live. Or accept a long commute same as tens of thousands of people for whom wage subs are impossible.

Away out of here with your sense! There's no vote to be bought with that shíte!

wirelessdude01 · 28-11-2018 10:07am

_Brian wrote:

If they canâ€™t afford Dublin initially they need to cut their cloth and move to more rural areas to work so they can afford to live. Or accept a long commute same as tens of thousands of people for whom wage subs are impossible.

See PS and CS aren't all that widely available in rural areas and this will only continue to decline with rural depopulation. Also young people on low wages mostly can't afford cars let alone the car insurance. Vicious vicious circle.

_Brian · 28-11-2018 10:14am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

See PS and CS aren't all that widely available in rural areas and this will only continue to decline with rural depopulation. Also young people on low wages mostly can't afford cars let alone the car insurance. Vicious vicious circle.

Yea but that needs to be a factor of making a career decision.
No one else can take a job that doesn’t afford their chosen lifestyle and then barter for extra payments so they can live in expensive urban areas.

This is a problem faced by all workers starting their careers and I fail to see why any group should be singled out for special treatment.

We all make career Vs lifestyle choices, it’s just part of being a working functional adult.

Sunny Disposition · 28-11-2018 10:16am

If you think it’s bad for public sector workers spare a thought for private sector workers who are paid less!!

Austria! · 28-11-2018 10:21am

limnam wrote: »

She's young. Get a room in a house for 280e a month.

Are you confusing young with from the past?

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 10:24am

_Brian wrote: »

Yea but that needs to be a factor of making a career decision.
No one else can take a job that doesn’t afford their chosen lifestyle and then barter for extra payments so they can live in expensive urban areas.

Agreed. The salary scale for teachers is widely known, so anyone who trained as a teacher knew pretty much to the euro what he or she would be making after graduation. There were no surprises. If newly qualified teachers aren't happy to work for what they knew they would be making, why did they train as teachers in the first place?

Now we're told that they have "no choice" but to head off to Dubai to make some decent tax-free cash.

Are we supposed to compete with Dubai now?

CucaFace · 28-11-2018 10:48am

Giving the public sector extra money will only drive rent prices up for everyone.

Honestly the real issue is that they are still not building apartment blocks for some reason in this city. Its crazy. Ive lived in Dublin city centre for nearly 15 years and I know the place well, the only buildings happening are office blocks (for more workers to come here and only inflate the rental crisis more, super expensive student accommodation (built by foreign investors with big tax breaks which from what Im hearing are not selling all their beds due to their massively over the top prices aimed only at very wealthy foreign students) and hotels. None of this is aimed at creating more supply and its beginning to look like this is purposely being done.

What the hell are the Govt or the DCC doing with regards to planning? All the crap being talked about and not one 'normal' bed being built in the city centre from what I can see.

The only solution to this crazy over hyped rental market is a massive amount of supply, and fast.

What I don't get is what has changed since 2007 and 2018 with regards to building companies making profits? If they could build an apt block and make money in 2007, what's all this crap about not being able to do it now and make money? If anything labour costs on the building sites have decreased since then as now all that work there are cheap Romanian labourers.

limnam · 28-11-2018 11:01am

Austria! wrote: »

Are you confusing young with from the past?

huh?

We're too good for a house share?

limnam · 28-11-2018 11:03am

Darkglasses wrote: »

How were new people post-Haddington Road being paid too much?

I was referring to the pre lads.

So comparing overpaid workers to current paid workers does not mean they're now been "shafted" if the wages been compared to were artificially high

limnam · 28-11-2018 11:05am

mammajamma wrote: »

280 a month! I know people paying 850 a month for a bog standard room in a bog standard house in rathmines. Maybe she can walk from kildare every day as a commute. Or does car ownership come with an equal reduction in your world?

Yeah, she should share a bed with someone for the next decade and be happy about it. That's life now.

Then they're not very good at using daft.

There's rooms on there at the moment for 280/300 a month.

wrangler · 28-11-2018 11:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't apologize at all if I were you. The 'anger' generated by begrudgery, resentment and downright jealousy at another's perceived better circumstances than their own is a widespread trait in this country.

Agreed, I don't care what anyone is paid if there was value for money, what is the waiting list in hospitals now, HSE getting Billions more and only a few more beds in the country, and what about the guards.
Taxpayers/private enterprise is screwed in this country. what's going on is not sustainable, hopefully the gravy train won't last much longer

c0rk3r · 28-11-2018 11:29am

limnam wrote: »

Then they're not very good at using daft.

There's rooms on there at the moment for 280/300 a month.

8 results, all incredibly grim options.

Example.

€300 Shared room vacancy in Ballymun. It is a two bedroom apartment, 5 people (included you), 3 Brazilians and 1 Mexican girl You are going to share the room with the Mexican girl to move on 24...

Lovely.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b · 28-11-2018 11:31am

c0rk3r wrote: »

8 results, all incredibly grim options.

Example.

€300 Shared room vacancy in Ballymun. It is a two bedroom apartment, 5 people (included you), 3 Brazilians and 1 Mexican girl You are going to share the room with the Mexican girl to move on 24...

Lovely.

We have reached a new low in Irish society when we expect our teachers to share rooms with Mexicans.

limnam · 28-11-2018 11:39am

c0rk3r wrote: »

8 results, all incredibly grim options.

Example.

€300 Shared room vacancy in Ballymun. It is a two bedroom apartment, 5 people (included you), 3 Brazilians and 1 Mexican girl You are going to share the room with the Mexican girl to move on 24...

Lovely.

nice house share with a couple in dub 15 for 280

what do you want, your starting out, on just above minimum wage, leaves you with over 1300 a month.

Come off it.

limnam · 28-11-2018 11:40am

Myah Flaky Tablecloth wrote: »

We have reached a new low in Irish society when we expect our teachers to share rooms with Mexicans.

#

Bit racist.

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 11:43am

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/where-have-all-our-young-teachers-gone-36666467.html

Due to the high rents in Dublin and other cities, why doesn't the government pay special allowances so that public-sector workers can afford to live in those place in order to fill vacancies for especially important jobs in those areas? Isn't that what already happens in Britain?

Teaching is a clear example of a profession in which job vacancies in cities cannot be filled because of high rents.

Or the government could build an adequate stock of social housing and remove onerous taxation and planning conditions on development of high density living. This would pay fore it's self in removal of HAP and sticking people in hotels.

But quite simply it's too profitable for certain people to keep housing scarce.

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 11:49am

limnam wrote: »

CGet a room in a house for 280e a month.

On what planet?

Ash.J.Williams · 28-11-2018 11:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

I guarantee in my job as a hospital pharmacist, I make a lot more difference financially to the HSE than I am paid. The difference I make to patients lives is generally immeasurable. Ive worked my arse off to get to where I am today so apologies if you feel I'm too highly paid.

Full respect to your profession but we're all in the same boat

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 11:55am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

This measure will divert public funds to artificially push up rents and property prices yet is presented as being taken in the public interest. Why not just put the money into building more social and affordable houses in Dublin to bring down the accomodation costs for everyone working there?

I wonder how many rental properties this unidentified "Principal" writing the article owns?

The state is spending millions on HAP, hotels, and now housing suppliemts for PS workers all just to avoid building affordable housing.

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 11:58am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Such populist rubbish. Look Dublin needs something like they have in London. Differential bands of pay depending on where you work. Also key lower paid workers such as teachers/police/first responders have access to subsidised accomodation (only catch being in London this accommodation was generally in not very nice areas).

Emulating the disaster that is the UK's regional disparity and class system is not a good thing. Build affordable homes. Housing the population is more important than some people and American investors making big profits.

facehugger99 · 28-11-2018 11:58am

The most mollycoddled sector of workers in the State. Protected from redundancy during a recession that saw tens of thousands of Private Sector workers losing their jobs. They've had their snouts in the trough gobbling up out tax-euros for decades and they are never satisfied.

If the public sector doesn't suit them let them fcuk off and try a real day's work for a change in the private sector.

Bunch of fcuking chancers.

TCM · 28-11-2018 11:59am

Conor74 wrote:

Whoever thought this was clever may have exposed the members of the club to litigation.

Conor74 wrote:

It could be one very serious and expensive mess.

limnam wrote:

One of the highest paid public sector work forces in the oecd and they should be given rent allowance?

limnam wrote:

They should be just delighted we haven't started reverse bench marking.

The Tetrarch wrote:

What I get from that article is young teachers go to Dubai to earn big money, and their job is still available to them when they return.

Oh the envy and hate from the shelf stackers

limnam · 28-11-2018 12:03pm

cgcsb wrote: »

On what planet?

planet daft.ie

cgcsb · 28-11-2018 12:04pm

CucaFace wrote: »

Giving the public sector extra money will only drive rent prices up for everyone.

Honestly the real issue is that they are still not building apartment blocks for some reason in this city. Its crazy. Ive lived in Dublin city centre for nearly 15 years and I know the place well, the only buildings happening are office blocks (for more workers to come here and only inflate the rental crisis more, super expensive student accommodation (built by foreign investors with big tax breaks which from what Im hearing are not selling all their beds due to their massively over the top prices aimed only at very wealthy foreign students) and hotels. None of this is aimed at creating more supply and its beginning to look like this is purposely being done.

What the hell are the Govt or the DCC doing with regards to planning? All the crap being talked about and not one 'normal' bed being built in the city centre from what I can see.

The only solution to this crazy over hyped rental market is a massive amount of supply, and fast.

What I don't get is what has changed since 2007 and 2018 with regards to building companies making profits? If they could build an apt block and make money in 2007, what's all this crap about not being able to do it now and make money? If anything labour costs on the building sites have decreased since then as now all that work there are cheap Romanian labourers.

The student beds are affordable to build because they don't include expensive underground car parks or individual facilities. All apartments in Dublin have to have a car space even though nobody can afford a car, much less an underground space. Low cost apartments could be available with no parking and a shared laundry room for example but no, we all have to be able to afford dual aspect pent houses, they are the rules.

limnam · 28-11-2018 12:07pm

cgcsb wrote: »

All apartments in Dublin have to have a car space even though nobody can afford a car.

Huh

The number of vehicles on Irish roads has reached its highest level to date, with a total 2.68 million vehicles, including 2.1 million cars, using the State’s roads last year, according to the latest Transport Trends report

28-11-2018 12:11pm

wrangler wrote: »

Agreed, I don't care what anyone is paid if there was value for money, what is the waiting list in hospitals now, HSE getting Billions more and only a few more beds in the country, and what about the guards.
Taxpayers/private enterprise is screwed in this country. what's going on is not sustainable, hopefully the gravy train won't last much longer

I've never understood this argument that its implied that public servants should be excluded from the group known as 'taxpayers'. They are taxed and spend their earnings in the private sector like everyone else.

end of the road · 28-11-2018 12:21pm

cournioni wrote: »

Those who can’t do, teach.

If we are to hike their wages/allowances then the cost of everything else will rise as well.

A bit of commuting won’t do them any harm either, if they’re that worried about rent prices. Sure most of them will be out of the schools before rush hour hits anyway.

the thing is, a bit of a commute may indeed do them some harm depending on it's length. teachers will be doing work outside school hours also such as correcting work etc, and if they have quite a long commute, that potentially means them working later into the night, equalling less sleep, meaning it potentially effects the work in the classroom. same with hospital workers and gardai, they need to be as rested as possible so they are 100% on the job.

Addle wrote: »

Decentralise more departments.
Free up accommodation for those who remain in cities.
Give a boost to other locations.
Win, win?!

the problem is, the other locations likely have nothing to offer, so it could be argued as to why bother boosting them. by all means if the government are willing to invest throughout the whole country, then perhapse these locations could become attractive and boost themselves naturally. but that isn't going to happen, so decentralisation is unlikely to boost anything (i don't believe it did last time either)

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

If you think it’s bad for public sector workers spare a thought for private sector workers who are paid less!!

private sector workers aren't all paid less then public service workers, and not all public service workers are on high wages. both sectors really have mixed wage structures.

end of the road · 28-11-2018 12:32pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

The most mollycoddled sector of workers in the State. Protected from redundancy during a recession that saw tens of thousands of Private Sector workers losing their jobs. They've had their snouts in the trough gobbling up out tax-euros for decades and they are never satisfied.

If the public sector doesn't suit them let them fcuk off and try a real day's work for a change in the private sector.

Bunch of fcuking chancers.

a nonsense soundbite. public sector workers do a real days work as well. the private sector don't all have it hard and aren't the only ones who know work.
the public sector weren't protected from redundantsies in real terms, the redundantsies that were needed had likely taken place over the years anyway as jobs either were no longer needed or parts were integrated into other rolls.

Public servants' inability to afford to pay rent in Dublin.

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