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Turning left in car with cyclist behind you

13567

Comments

  • #102
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    The Enbalmer wrote:
    This paranoid idea that car drivers are all out to mill cyclists is devisive,dangerous nonsense.


    Bit rich accusing others of being devisive no?


    The Enbalmer wrote:
    Exactly. Lots of cyclists have never driven a vehicle and have no idea about the rules of the road or choose to ignore them.
    The Enbalmer wrote:
    Cycling has always been a cheap way to get around,the MAMIL generation are the ones who have cars..ironic really as generally they make the worst cyclists.
    The Enbalmer wrote:
    In that they cycle without due care and attention..are usually aggressive and often deliberately try to provoke other road users.

    The Enbalmer wrote:
    I anticipate a "wagon-circling" of the usual suspects from the cycling forum whereby they deny that cyclist ever cause problems on the roads and that all motorists are bloodthirsty maniacs out to kill a quota of "2-3 people a week".

    The Enbalmer wrote:
    It has to do with how do cyclists KNOW anything about the rules of the road or driving etiquette when they can simply jump on a bike without knowing the first thing about either.

    So why are untrained people allowed to use public highways?




    The Enbalmer wrote:
    The "X-Factor" being the fact that cyclists don't need to learn the rules of the road and as such can be unpredictable.

    What qualifies a cyclist to be on the road in the 1st place,given they don't require any training or need to display any documentation?



    The Enbalmer wrote:
    Nor do you pal. You left the circle jerk of the cycling forum to try and shut down any negative discussion on cycling.
    That's what you people do.
    Quite sad really when all you're doing is making people hate cyclists all the more .


  • #103
    ZeroThreat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,210 ✭✭✭ZeroThreat


    Seth Brundle wrote: »
    I've a full clean driving licence.
    I've a car and use it both to commute and for private, social and domestic stuff.
    I also cycle on main roads both commuting and for leisure. I aim to cycle several hundred km per week.
    I abide by traffic lights and other road traffic laws when cycling (although occasionally I must break a red as they won't change for me).
    I can confirm that many motorists who presumably also have passed a test should not be allowed drive. Their spatial awareness is atrocious. Use of their phones is rampant. Speeding past vulnerable road users (not just cyclists) with insufficient space for any errors.
    Many professional drivers are amongst the worst to be honest. Unless you've cycled you wouldnt believe it!

    If you include taxi drivers under that category I'd wholeheartedly agree.


  • #104
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bobbyss wrote: »
    If a cyclist tries to filter at speed through a space between stationary cars and he or she misjudges ( space wasn't wide enough) there is a chance side mirrors will be clipped or car scraped.

    This is why when stuck in traffic when driving, I try to keep a gap wider on one side of me to allow cyclists to filter. if you leave a gap thats more attractive they tend to take that option rather than the narrow one. You can also close a gap so they rule it out as an option.


  • #105
    og2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭og2k7


    Being both a cyclist (commuting for 10 months a year) and a driver for 2 months (summer when kids are off school) : as a cyclist i slow down and expect the driver to turn without seeing me, as a driver I expect the cyclists not to slow down and wait for all of them to pass so I can turn left

    After doing the cycling safety test in Scotland (I never thought about the primary position etc - always kept to max left) - so if I know there are turns when drivers will just turn left (or super narrow roads) I assume the primary position, so the cars cannot overtake me to turn left

    Apologies for getting back to the topic ;)


  • #106
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    i have found that indicating early for a left turn encourages cyclist to speed up and overtake on the left just as i reach the turn. cant win!


  • #107
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i have found that indicating early for a left turn encourages cyclist to speed up and overtake on the left just as i reach the turn. cant win!

    Use your brake.


  • #108
    cdaly_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    bobbyss wrote: »
    Thanks. I feel you are right. I entered slow enough but the cyclist came at speed ( despite being aware that the lights ahead were red and woukd hsv5e to stop) .
    Assuming there was room to clear the yellow box and still stop before the lights, then the cyclist was just travelling too fast and being incautious. If they were running a red light then they would be in the wrong.
    In any case, your entering slowly was the properly cautious thing to do.
    Just to be clear. Is it ok ( ie lawful) for a cyclist to be cycling BETWEEN two lanes as traffic is stopped at lights? Sometimes the space is tight and side mirrors could be clipped?
    This is permitted by the 'pass on the left' element of the legislation. Prior to this, it would only be lawful for the cyclist to pass to the right of both lanes.


  • #109
    cdaly_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i have found that indicating early for a left turn encourages cyclist to speed up and overtake on the left just as i reach the turn. cant win!

    I would think that's a win. Cyclist has early warning of your planned turn and can speed up to, hopefully, clear the junction ahead of you. Alternatively, the cyclist can move out to overtake you on the right (which is my preferred choice). When you slow for the turn, the cyclist has already passed?


  • #110
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Bit rich accusing others of being devisive no?




    How much of your day did you waste copying and pasting my posts? :D


  • #111
    antix80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭antix80


    Ever heard of multiquote?


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  • #112
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    How much of your day did you waste copying and pasting my posts? :D

    Just a couple of mins, but still probably too much alright.

    Don't want to address the question no?


  • #113
    gmacww
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 454 ✭✭gmacww


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    i have found that indicating early for a left turn encourages cyclist to speed up and overtake on the left just as i reach the turn. cant win!

    Damned if we do and damned if we don't.

    I have seen some cyclists assume right of way at all times when going straight ahead regardless of a car indicating.

    If I see a car indicating I'll stay behind. Even at a red light if it's first car (or even a few cars that are indicating left) I'll hold short behind.

    Yesterday at baggot street bridge I got the head taken off me by a lad in a car as I pulled up along side him. He'd no indicator on and both lanes can go straight. When I pulled up I was slightly ahead of him he then turned his indicator on and gave out to me for as he's turning left.

    I've seen discussions in the motoring forum where people gave out about a cyclist indicating right in a right only lane. "Of course he's going right" was the tone. Far as I know you still have to indicate be it a car or bike.

    I've seen cyclists pull up along side a car indicating left at a red light and then proceed straight giving out when the car beeps.

    I've had motorists afraid to go and turn left even though I'm holding short on the assumption that I'm going to dart up the inside. I've restored to waving a driver across in all situations like this to make it obvious that I'm not going to go up the inside. This works great most of the time...

    I've had the head taken off me for letting a car cross a lane of stationary traffic and solid line cycle land on the left. I regularly do it in Rathgar if there are no cyclists behind me as drivers can have difficulty seeing around the cars when turning right onto the side road. No sense of common road courtesy. I asked the driver had he never let anyone in or out of a side street? He roared I on a bike and I've no authority to do that it's crazy! This despite the light 20mts away being red and he driving in the bike lane.

    I've been aggressively overtaken and clipped with a wing mirror for moving out of the cycle lane in order to turn right. Despite being very predictable about it and signaling all the way across.

    So no matter what you do be it in a car or on a bike. There is always some idiot that will take issue with you. My solution is that I drive and cycle defensively.


  • #114
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Duckjob wrote: »

    Don't want to address the question no?




    I wasn't asked any question..i did however pose about 10 questions myself..none of which were answered.


  • #115
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,855 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    With all the ads on tv about safety for cyclists, ie amount of space to give etc, I find it shocking they don't have one about how motorists and cyclists should behave when a car is turning left.


  • #116
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    I wasn't asked any question..i did however pose about 10 questions myself..none of which were answered.

    Let me help you..
    Duckjob wrote:
    Bit rich accusing others of being devisive no?

    If that's too hard for you to follow, the question once again is:

    Given the devisive language used in a string of your posts I highlighted from this thread, do you not think it's a bit rich accusing others of being devisive ?

    Also, the particular "questions" you asked have been trotted out a thousand times (and addressed a thousand times) in thejournal.ie cycling article comments, maybe you should contribute there instead of derailing what was quite an interesting discussion.


  • #117
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Duckjob wrote: »
    Let me help you..



    If that's too hard for you to follow, the question once again is:

    Given the devisive language used in a string of your posts I highlighted from this thread, do you not think it's a bit rich accusing others of being devisive ?


    No i don't.

    Duckjob wrote: »
    Also, the particular "questions" you asked have been trotted out a thousand times (and addressed a thousand times) in thejournal comments, maybe you should contribute there instead of derailing what was quite an interesting discussion.




    This isn't the journal last time i checked..there's a FB group called "i hate cyclists" i don't direct you there do i?





    You're taking the lazy way out..much like cycllsts in general and i do hate to generalise.


  • #118
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,161 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    og2k7 wrote: »
    as a cyclist i slow down and expect the driver to turn without seeing me, as a driver I expect the cyclists not to slow down and wait for all of them to pass so I can turn left
    How it should be. Err on the side of caution each time, even though that is the incorrect use of the word err.


  • #119
    Duckjob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    No i don't.





    This isn't the journal last time i checked..there's a FB group called "i hate cyclists" i don't direct you there do i?

    My point being there plenty of places you can go to moan about cyclists if that's really what turns you on.

    Not sure what you think is being achieved by taking any discussion that happens to involve people on bikes and dragging it completely off its original topic.

    You're taking the lazy way out..much like cycllsts in general and i do hate to generalise.

    Sure you do :D


  • #120
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Getting back on topic, the primary legislation for left turns and overtaking on the left by cyclists is covered by SI 332/2012 which says
    “(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—

    (i) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn to the left,

    (ii) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn to the left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention, or

    (iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle,

    (b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

    (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

    (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

    There also seems to be some confusion between the different road markings.
    1 A traffic lane is marked by a dashed white line RRM003
    2 A mandatory cyle lane is marked by a solid white line RRM022
    3 An ADVISORY cycle lane is marked by a dashed white line RRM023

    A cycle lane denoted by RRM023 is NOT a traffic lane and advice given that cyclists are in traffic lanes where RRM023 is used is erroneous and probably dangerous advice.


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  • #121
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    gmacww wrote: »
    My solution is that I drive and cycle defensively.

    Do you wear Lycra while cycling? if you do you'll be considered aggressive apparently.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110774439&postcount=47


  • #122
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Do you wear Lycra while cycling? if you do you'll be considered aggressive apparently.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110774439&postcount=47




    You're quoting yourself now?


    Good stuff that man!


    But then you think everybody on the road is out to run you over..perhaps a psychological test should be added to the list of things a cyclist should undergo before being allowed into traffic.


  • #123
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    "You're quoting yourself now?" -

    Yes I am...sorry..im too lazy to look up @vandrivers original post.


    "Good stuff that man!"

    thanks


    "But then you think everybody on the road is out to run you over".

    Ah no... its not intentional. It's just a lot of people seem to think that you need a license to use our roads? They think that people shouldn't or are not allowed on our roads unless they are on or in a vehicle of some sort? This line of thinking only applies to Motorways.


  • #124
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »

    "But then you think everybody on the road is out to run you over".

    Ah no... its not intentional. It's just a lot of people seem to think that you need a license to use our roads? They think that people shouldn't or are not allowed on our roads unless they are on or in a vehicle of some sort? This line of thinking only applies to Motorways.




    How about a proficiency exam to use a pedal cycle? Given that it can travel much faster than any pedestrian and you are allowed drive on the roads like a car?


  • #125
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    How about a proficiency exam to use a pedal cycle? Given that it can travel much faster than any pedestrian and you are allowed drive on the roads like a car?

    I think cycling should be part of the driving test. IMO All drivers should be experienced cyclists before they can drive a car.


  • #126
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I think cycling should be part of the driving test. IMO All drivers should be experienced cyclists before they can drive a car.


    How about disabled people who cannot cycle but may use a specially adapted car or other vehicle?


    You think the world revolves around cyclists?


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  • #127
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    How about disabled people who cannot cycle but may use a specially adapted car or other vehicle?


    You think the world revolves around cyclists?

    Unfortunately the world does seem to revolve around cars, but that doesnt mean its right.

    What kind of disability we talking about? these people seem to manage OK?


    https://www.google.com/search?q=disabled+cyclist&rlz=1C1EJFB_enIE696IE696&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL9cn_xc3jAhVpSxUIHZ9zCFQQ_AUIECgB&biw=1671&bih=907#imgrc=_


  • #128
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Unfortunately the world does seem to revolve around cars, but that doesnt mean its right.

    What kind of disability we talking about? these people seem to manage OK?


    https://www.google.com/search?q=disabled+cyclist&rlz=1C1EJFB_enIE696IE696&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL9cn_xc3jAhVpSxUIHZ9zCFQQ_AUIECgB&biw=1671&bih=907#imgrc=_




    Well there's a man i work with who had polio as a youth and he walks with a cane and his leg is in calipers so he can't cycle.



    Are you saying he should be FORCED to cycle because you googled disabled cyclists?


  • #129
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    The Enbalmer wrote: »


    Are you saying he should be FORCED to cycle because you googled disabled cyclists?

    I'm sorry to hear your friend has a disability.

    I'm saying anyone who wants to drive a car should have to pass a cycling test, yes. He could use a bike like this one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi92bbAyc3jAhWKUBUIHaOmCxMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.getyourselfactive.org%2F2017%2F08%2F25%2Fdisabled-man-hand-cycled-the-coastline-of-england-in-29-days-the-robert-groves-story%2F&psig=AOvVaw39Di8IouUf-WjQJh0l9cbc&ust=1564058035522341


    Once he passes the test, he can then proceed to the next level and drive a car. He only has to cycle to pass the test.


  • #130
    bobbyss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,263 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    antix80 wrote:
    I still have no idea what point you're making. They shouldn't proceed and if they caused damage they'd be liable for it.

    antix80 wrote:
    It would be like a motorist in a carpark, seeing a very small space and deciding to squeeze in, at speed, and taking the side off a parked car. Some people are idiots. It doesn't mean it should be illegal to park.


    Ok.

    The point I am making is this.

    If a cyclist is filtering at speed between two lanes of traffic which has stopped or is going slowly there is a chance that said cyclist could scrape or hit side mirror of car if the gap between the cars is too tight and the cyclist has misjudged that space between the cars.

    The cyclist may be liable for damage but what's to stop the cyclist continuing on? If another car scraped you in these circumstances at least you can get reg number etc.


  • #131
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,855 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I think cycling should be part of the driving test. IMO All drivers should be experienced cyclists before they can drive a car.

    Define experience? Because the way cyclists behave at the moment, less than 10% would count as experience in Dublin


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  • #132
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    bfa1509 wrote: »
    Does all this still apply if there is a cycle lane? In all the cases I mentioned above, there was a cycle lane.

    Imagine if it was a bus lane, with a bus travelling up it.
    and you decide to cut in for a left turn ...


  • #133
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I'm sorry to hear your friend has a disability.

    I'm saying anyone who wants to drive a car should have to pass a cycling test, yes. He could use a bike like this one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi92bbAyc3jAhWKUBUIHaOmCxMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.getyourselfactive.org%2F2017%2F08%2F25%2Fdisabled-man-hand-cycled-the-coastline-of-england-in-29-days-the-robert-groves-story%2F&psig=AOvVaw39Di8IouUf-WjQJh0l9cbc&ust=1564058035522341


    Once he passes the test, he can then proceed to the next level and drive a car. He only has to cycle to pass the test.




    He has been driving without an accident for over 50 years. I'm sure he,like most disabled motorists will embrace your "idea" and not one of them will consider it to be ill-thought out claptrap.


    I'm saying anyone who wants to drive a car should have to pass a cycling test, yes.




    Absolute drivel. How you can say that with a straight face is beyond me.


  • #134
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    That's interesting, thanks.

    EDIT: And to your point Enbalmer - I would absolutely agree with what Meeh has said being introduced in Ireland.

    MEEH - can you qualify - how does this work.

    When you say kids 'Under 14' - there must be a minimum age as well?

    Have you any links - as I couldn't see anything on google about it?

    Also - how do the cycle lanes compare there to here - would you say all things being equal that cycling infrastructure is more suited towards kids.

    Its a bit of a lament in Dublin that kids just cant cycle anywhere safely.

    Minimum age is 10. Under 10 you are not allowed to cycle on main roads without adult present. I think you are allowed on segregated cycle paths but I could be wrong. Part of primary school education is that you have to pick an extra curricular activity, it's usually sports, art, languages or whatever. One of the options is also cycling course. Kids are thought practical cycling, how to behave in traffic and do a small theoretical test on rules of the road (basic stuff). It was free in my time and I presume it still is.

    Cycling infrastructure is lights ahead but the roads are much busier, often narrower and population density is a lot higher. So the road safety stats wouldn't be that great. As a by the by a lot more people cycle. That being said rules around cycling are a lot stricter, if there is cycling path (always segregated as far as I know) you have to use it, you can't cycle two in a row, group club cycles as far as I know have to have car escort and you can be breathalyzed and fined for cycling drunk (600 Euro for over 0,50). Drunken cycling is one of the main reasons for accidents caused by cyclists.

    My nieces live in a village about 2km from the school and like we used to they cycle to school on combination of local roads and cycle lanes. Where my parents live there is very busy road with pedestrian side walk and used by less proficient cyclists without major issues (kids and cycling is very common among older people), the rest would be on the road.

    Ljubljana as capital is cycle friendly city with segregated cycling lanes and car free center.

    This is the link. Reading it things changed a bit and it's more comprehensive now. It's only in Slovene but you can do google translate to get the idea.
    https://www.avp-rs.si/preventiva/prometna-vzgoja/programi/kolesarski-izpiti/

    Cycling helmets for kids are mandatory.


  • #135
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Imagine if it was a bus lane, with a bus travelling up it.
    and you decide to cut in for a left turn ...


    But we're not talking about buses, we're talking about cyclists and it's covered in SI332/2012.
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Getting back on topic, the primary legislation for left turns and overtaking on the left by cyclists is covered by SI 332/2012 which says
    “(5)(a) A driver (other than a pedal cyclist) may only overtake on the left—

    (i) where the driver of the vehicle about to be overtaken has signalled an intention to turn to the right and the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to go straight ahead or turn to the left,

    (ii) where the driver of the overtaking vehicle intends, after overtaking, to turn to the left at the next road junction and has signalled this intention, or

    (iii) in slow-moving traffic, when vehicles in the traffic lane on the driver’s right are moving more slowly than the overtaking vehicle,

    (b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken—

    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle,

    (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or

    (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,


    There also seems to be some confusion between the different road markings.
    1 A traffic lane is marked by a dashed white line RRM003
    2 A mandatory cyle lane is marked by a solid white line RRM022
    3 An ADVISORY cycle lane is marked by a dashed white line RRM023

    A cycle lane denoted by RRM023 is NOT a traffic lane and advice given that cyclists are in traffic lanes where RRM023 is used is erroneous and probably dangerous advice.


  • #136
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,709 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Minimum age is 10. Under 10 you are not allowed to cycle on main roads without adult present. I think you are allowed on segregated cycle paths but I could be wrong. Part of primary school education is that you have to pick an extra curricular activity, it's usually sports, art, languages or whatever. One of the options is also cycling course. Kids are thought practical cycling, how to behave in traffic and do a small theoretical test on rules of the road (basic stuff). It was free in my time and I presume it still is.

    Cycling infrastructure is lights ahead but the roads are much busier, often narrower and population density is a lot higher. So the road safety stats wouldn't be that great. As a by the by a lot more people cycle. That being said rules around cycling are a lot stricter, if there is cycling path (always segregated as far as I know) you have to use it, you can't cycle two in a row, group club cycles as far as I know have to have car escort and you can be breathalyzed and fined for cycling drunk (600 Euro for over 0,50). Drunken cycling is one of the main reasons for accidents caused by cyclists.

    My nieces live in a village about 2km from the school and like we used to they cycle to school on combination of local roads and cycle lanes. Where my parents live there is very busy road with pedestrian side walk and used by less proficient cyclists without major issues (kids and cycling is very common among older people), the rest would be on the road.

    Ljubljana as capital is cycle friendly city with segregated cycling lanes and car free center.

    This is the link. Reading it things changed a bit and it's more comprehensive now. It's only in Slovene but you can do google translate to get the idea.
    https://www.avp-rs.si/preventiva/prometna-vzgoja/programi/kolesarski-izpiti/

    Cycling helmets for kids are mandatory.

    That's very interesting.

    Re the point in bold above - I think this is relevant as the population density in Dublin doesn't lend itself to cycling in my view.
    - people live further from city centre
    - people have their own driveways, its easier to manage car ownership
    - you are saying more cars on the road - but not in the city centre....and that's fine for cyclists. In Dublin - compared to other cities - there is a huge amount of cars in the actual city centre (and by City Centre I mean roughly speaking between the canals.

    The flip side is that in Dublin, the traffic is so bad and also the public transport is so incoherent that cycling - despite the lack of facilities - is still by far the easiest way to get around for anyone who lives within 5k of the city.


  • #137
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    ...still by far the easiest way to get around for anyone who lives within 5k of the city.

    Why 5k?

    10k is 30 mins cycles. Can you walk 30 mins?

    10k is Tallaght.

    https://www.doogal.co.uk/Circles.php?lat=53.347310049984365&lng=-6.259159354309276&dist=10&units=kilometres

    I'm not saying its for everyone. But the difficulty is completely overstated.


  • #138
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    That's very interesting.

    Re the point in bold above - I think this is relevant as the population density in Dublin doesn't lend itself to cycling in my view.
    - people live further from city centre
    - people have their own driveways, its easier to manage car ownership
    - you are saying more cars on the road - but not in the city centre....and that's fine for cyclists. In Dublin - compared to other cities - there is a huge amount of cars in the actual city centre (and by City Centre I mean roughly speaking between the canals.

    The flip side is that in Dublin, the traffic is so bad and also the public transport is so incoherent that cycling - despite the lack of facilities - is still by far the easiest way to get around for anyone who lives within 5k of the city.

    What I mean is that there are quite a few segregation cycling lanes around but local roads among villages and towns are narower and a lot busier. But after second world war a lot of urban planning especially in Ljubljana did include cycling paths.

    Traffic in central Europe is a bit different because it's not just local traffic you have to take into account but also transient traffic, either trucks going to Italian ports or especially in summer turists going to the coast, mostly Croatia. Traffic management in Irish cities is not great when you take into account that those are just local commuters. While population density in Ireland is definitely an issue in providing infrastructure a lot of it is just poor planning. Especially car free town and city centres shouldn't be that hard to achieve. Another issue is parking at the side of the road, it's much better to build dedicated underground car parks and reclaim that part of the road.


  • #139
    cdaly_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    bobbyss wrote: »
    The cyclist may be liable for damage but what's to stop the cyclist continuing on? If another car scraped you in these circumstances at least you can get reg number etc.

    Like the car driver who scraped my car in a car park and left a note on my windscreen* with their contact details?


    *Oh wait, no they didn't. They just f*cked off without a care...


  • #140
    meeeeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    beauf wrote: »
    Why 5k?

    10k is 30 mins cycles. Can you walk 30 min.

    In fairness, I am quite fit and while I manage 10k in 30 minutes, it wouldn't be relaxed cycling (I run a bit but my cycling is more pedestrian). It's definitely doable but cycling infrastructure in cities should be built for those who don't cycle 10k in 30 minutes. Otherwise you will never significantly increase numbers of people cycling.


  • #141
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    That's very interesting.

    Re the point in bold above - I think this is relevant as the population density in Dublin doesn't lend itself to cycling in my view.
    - people live further from city centre
    - people have their own driveways, its easier to manage car ownership
    - you are saying more cars on the road - but not in the city centre....and that's fine for cyclists. In Dublin - compared to other cities - there is a huge amount of cars in the actual city centre (and by City Centre I mean roughly speaking between the canals.

    The flip side is that in Dublin, the traffic is so bad and also the public transport is so incoherent that cycling - despite the lack of facilities - is still by far the easiest way to get around for anyone who lives within 5k of the city.
    We have allowed our country to become heavily car dependent. This led to urban sprawl, poor bus and train services, etc. Also people now need space outside their house to accommodate their cars, which despite the size will spend most of their time carrying only one person. It is a (and I say this as a petrolhead) completely stupid approach that cannot continue.
    Dublin is a great city to cycle in, if it is allowed. It is largely flat which suits cycling.
    The problem is that the car has been allowed to dominate and options such a the bycicle were given the Thatcher treatment. This has led to poor cycling infrastructure. Our councils spend large amounts of money on something that cyclists won't use because, had they been consulted, the councils would have been told that it was more dangerous or whatever.

    However, moving back towards our topic, this attitude that cyclists are all kamakazi muppets out to scratch your car or whatever is an ignorant one.
    Not all of us charge up behind a car that looks to be turning left. Personally, I probably would have been further right on the road (1m from left) and so will have the option to move in behind the car. Therefore should the driver be checking their mirrors, they know what I'm planning.


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  • #142
    cdaly_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,440 ✭✭✭cdaly_


    meeeeh wrote: »
    In fairness, I am quite fit and while I manage 10k in 30 minutes, it wouldn't be relaxed cycling (I run a bit but my cycling is more pedestrian). It's definitely doable but cycling infrastructure in cities should be built for those who don't cycle 10k in 30 minutes. Otherwise you will never significantly increase numbers of people cycling.
    The Danish cycle route 'green wave' timing is based on people commuting at 20kph.


  • #143
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    cdaly_ wrote: »
    Like the car driver who scraped my car in a car park and left a note on my windscreen* with their contact details?


    *Oh wait, no they didn't. They just f*cked off without a care...
    Yep we're all wa**ers!

    Just like the person who I believe reversed into my car's drivers side rear quarter panel in Celbridge and left a month after I got it.
    Or ther person who damaged my bumber?

    Stop with the biased crap please!


  • #144
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    average_runner wrote: »
    Define experience? Because the way cyclists behave at the moment, less than 10% would count as experience in Dublin

    We could say the same about drivers!

    Maybe i should have said "drivers should have to experience what it's like to be a cyclist before they can drive a car".


  • #145
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    We could say the same about drivers on theM50!

    .


    That's not your concern..cyclists are not permitted on motorways.


  • #146
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,255 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    That's not your concern..cyclists are not permitted on motorways.


    Correct! we can agree on that one. So i've edited my post, thanks


  • #147
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    We could say the same about drivers!

    Maybe i should have said "drivers should have to experience what it's like to be a cyclist before they can drive a car".


    I think most of us have ridden a bicycle at some stage in our lives..usually as children.


    It's a lot less complicated to learn than driving a vehicle and in no way relevant to one's skill at driving.


  • #148
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,034 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    I think most of us have ridden a bicycle at some stage in our lives..usually as children.


    It's a lot less complicated to learn than driving a vehicle and in no way relevant to one's skill at driving.

    I would definitely disagree.

    First off you have to take the rules of the road, which were written for motorised traffic which can keep up with main traffic flow and hold an entire lane and figure out to apply them in a way that doesn't get you killed. This thread is a perfect example of that. It's assumed that cyclists will spend most of their time cycling on the left of traffic as that's where the slowest traffic is meant to be, but the rules are quite vague on how to deal with motorised traffic that is moving more slowly or looking to turn left. For the record, they do say that overtaking on the left is legal for cyclists and the cyclist has to give way if a car ahead indicates in good enough time that they want to turn left. On the flip side of that, if you're in the car and you decide to turn left without indicating, leave it till the last second to indicate or overtake and then turn left, then you're the one in the wrong.

    Lots of things that cyclists do look like dickish things to someone who has no experience of cycling in traffic but when you get used to cycling yourself, you learn that they are necessary to cycle safely. Knowing when to keep left close to the kerb and when to move out and temporarily hold a lane for instance.

    But obviously you would know all that as you're one of the "I'm a cyclist myself ..." people.


  • #149
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Wishbone Ash wrote:
    What about doing neither?

    Can you explain what you mean by that?
    The Enbalmer wrote:
    No they ****ing won't! People are all out to use the roads safely and they want to arrive at their destination in one piece. This paranoid idea that car drivers are all out to mill cyclists is devisive,dangerous nonsense.

    What utter rubbish, you obviously never cycled in ireland. There are some lunatic anti cycling drivers out there, and on this forum.


  • #150
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    The Enbalmer wrote: »
    I think most of us have ridden a bicycle at some stage in our lives..usually as children.


    It's a lot less complicated to learn than driving a vehicle and in no way relevant to one's skill at driving.
    I would dispute that claim.
    Being a cyclist makes you more aware of other road users and how vulnerable you are.
    Since I started cycling more, I'm acutely aware of what it takes to prevent myself being bullied by some motorists.
    For this, I've been spat on by a motorist recently who disliked me not letting him overtake me dangerously. Frequently I have had cars, vans, busses and lorries drive past at speed within maybe 18 inches - had I swerved to avoid a pothole, i'd probably have been killed.
    This morning whilst cycling at ~45km/h in the centre of the lane I had a van overtake me on a bendy road despite the double continuous white line. Had he been a second slower, he would have moved into me to avoid the oncoming car.

    As a motorist, I do not do these things. I slow down for vulnerable road users (not just cyclists).

    Granted, there are some cyclists who are idiots but these are idiots regardless of their mode of transport. However, it is quite evident that there are more idiots driving than on bicycles!


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  • #151
    The Enbalmer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭The Enbalmer


    Seth Brundle wrote: »

    Granted, there are some cyclists who are idiots but these are idiots regardless of their mode of transport. However, it is quite evident that there are more idiots driving than on bicycles!


    Well in terms of numbers there are far more drivers of MPVs on the roads so this is going to stack up.


    Unfortunately cyclists are more likely to injure or kill themselves when cycling like idiots because they have none of the protection of a steel-bodied vehicle and no seatbelts.


    This is what cyclist forget when they're doing stupid stuff on the roads,..they are the ones who will come off worse with any encounter with a vehicle..far better to stay left and stay away from cars,use signals,stop at lights and all the rest of it.


    When i'm cycling i behave exactly as i would when driving,especially when it comes to indicating my intentions...


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