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Hurling- what’s gone wrong and where do we go from here.

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    #62
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Rosita wrote: »
    That's the fundamental problem or at least the fundamental symptom (too easy to score) . Listened to Galway-Waterford yesterday and (this could be any match) and it sounded like the puckouts were assists. Every puckout it seemed brought a score. The broader problem is that it creates big gaps between teams which by all normal observation are fairly evenly matched when even a small advantage in possession is reflected in an avalanche of scores.

    Unfortunately when you point out this you'll be told irrelevant stuff about fitness and the strength of players' wrists etc.

    The point is the game as a spectacle is suffering as there is less and less action in between scores. It is just too easy to score or at least attempt a score if you are in space, and despite all the rucks and crowding of players trying to rise the ball at times, a player shooting for goal is very often in acres of space.

    It's a difficult conversation as some people talk about fitness of players as if that's an end or spectacle in itself. If that were the case marathon running would be the biggest spectator sport in the world. The GAA world needs to deal with this obsessional stuff and move on to a mature conversation.

    You won't turn on the French Open Tennis and be bombarded by people telling you how amazingly fit the players are. It's a given in most sports. It's not the aspect that makes it entertaining. Proper contests for possession, doubts about the eventual outcome of the game, and the sense that scores are earned rather than just simply being a nearly inevitable follow-on from having the puckout are all part of that I would think. Not the knowledge of how much some guy's bench press improved in UL.

    It's slightly ironic that it's often the people who get on their high horse about the evils of "tradition" are often the same people who abhor the idea of changing anything about the game.

    One of the big problems is the immaturity of the commentary.
    Very few analysts will come straight out and say a match was brutal to watch. But a few of them will try and match Seamus Heaney when waxing about how wonderful a match was.
    People who do point out that hurling is becoming very hard to watch are sometimes accused of being narrow minded traditionalists, who don’t understand the ‘evolution’ of the game. Just complete dismissal rather than counter arguments. Memorably one analyst said criticism of sweepers was the last remnants of British colonial influence in Ireland.
    It’s stupid and facile, and it helps prevent any proper analysis of the decline in spectacle.
    On topic, the rule on the bad could be implemented if there was a willingness. When I played very low level soccer the red would check your studs pre match. Something similar could be done pre match in hurling, wouldn’t take very long or be very difficult. Would be great.


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    #63
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,374 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    I think there is a rule, but it’s never enforced. Very interesting when you see old games, the bas was way smaller even in the noughties. Having a fella who could point most 65s used to be a big asset to teams, even at inter county.


    Theory used to be that the smaller bas would cut the air better and you would get a better swing as its lighter. Even keepers had the smaller puckout hurley for a while there. I dont think the hurleys are the big game changer but if there is a rule it should be enforced.


    The sliotar changed to a synthetic material a few years back and I reckon its there that the GAA will look next. Not so much the weight of the ball but the bounce of it


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    #64
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    breezy1985 wrote: »
    Theory used to be that the smaller bas would cut the air better and you would get a better swing as its lighter. Even keepers had the smaller puckout hurley for a while there. I dont think the hurleys are the big game changer but if there is a rule it should be enforced.


    The sliotar changed to a synthetic material a few years back and I reckon its there that the GAA will look next. Not so much the weight of the ball but the bounce of it

    The weight isn’t lighter than it used to be, but the composition of it still means it goes a good bit further.
    I do think enforcing the rule on the bas would make a big difference too, but I doubt it’ll be done.


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    #65
    Clare in Exile
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭Clare in Exile


    Some good points raised (no pun intended). There is definitely an issue with the game currently. Evolution is a natural part of any game, what has happened here is that fitness and skill levels, allied with increased core body strength, has led to a game which has almost morphed into basketball.

    I keep thinking back to 1995 and the day that Clare finally brought Liam back to the Banner. The final scoreline that day? 1-13 to 2-08. In today's game that wouldn't even be the half-time total. Granted, the standard of skill and ball striking that day was nowhere near today's level, but what it did have was an intensity surrounding the contest. Every single score was hard won, every point greeted with a gutteral roar from the crowd as they knew it was crucial to the final outcome. We have definitely lost something along the way.

    Today we have a game where scoring chances are almost arriving at every play - the crowd will be almost too lazy to greet a score with anything more than polite applause.

    There is a problem and it can't be ignored...


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    #66
    jackboy
    Registered Users Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭jackboy


    The main issue is that it is getting worse. Massive gym work means that the average player is built like a tank and can hit the ball huge distances. Even teenagers training has gym work at its core.

    Donal Og is often a pain to listen to but I agreed with him the other night, the tackle needs to be looked at. Stopping a runner with arms or hurleys should be banned. Return the advantage to the small skilful guy. Let the tanks go play rugby.


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    #67
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Clare in Exile wrote: »
    Some good points raised (no pun intended). There is definitely an issue with the game currently. Evolution is a natural part of any game, what has happened here is that fitness and skill levels, allied with increased core body strength, has led to a game which has almost morphed into basketball.

    I keep thinking back to 1995 and the day that Clare finally brought Liam back to the Banner. The final scoreline that day? 1-13 to 2-08. In today's game that wouldn't even be the half-time total. Granted, the standard of skill and ball striking that day was nowhere near today's level, but what it did have was an intensity surrounding the contest. Every single score was hard won, every point greeted with a gutteral roar from the crowd as they knew it was crucial to the final outcome. We have definitely lost something along the way.

    Today we have a game where scoring chances are almost arriving at every play - the crowd will be almost too lazy to greet a score with anything more than polite applause.

    There is a problem and it can't be ignored...

    I wonder are skill levels higher or does the change in the hirley and ball make it seem like that? Definitely points are scored from more difficult angles now and way further out, but is that a reflection of greater skill? Mentioning that Clare team, is there a more skillful player now than Liam Doyle? Or Jamesie O’Connor?
    I don’t think skill levels could rise that much since 2000, given there was already so much time going into preparation. Some skills are almost absent now, hooking being one, ground striking also.
    But it does look like it’s a more skilful game, because of the amount of scores and the distances they come from.


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    #68
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    There were some very good, close games in 2018 and that’s still papering over the cracks. There were a couple in 2016 too.
    The adjustments in football have worked rather well, much better game now, but the dominance of Dublin has overshadowed that.
    The 02 and 2011 All Ireland’s were in Eir sport, hurling was a far better watch in those years than now unfortunately.
    To compare it to other sports, watching it used to be a bit like watching a big heavyweight fight, you couldn’t take your eyes off it or there was a good chance of missing something significant. Now I think that tension has gone from most games, you could have a chat with someone, look at stuff on your phone, and not really worry that much about it.

    Sounds to me like that you are the one that has changed not the game.

    There was plenty of terrible games back then too, in fact far more that we see now, but no one remembers them, just the odd classic that we got. I dont remember the 2002 AI off the top of my head but the 2011 AI was a terrible game.

    No game is perfect of course and there is always a need for monitoring and tweeking but this hyperbole about hurling being ruined is OTT.


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    #69
    tomtucker81
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭tomtucker81


    https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0815/1069043-hurling-bas/

    There's an article about bas size and how there is a rule (13cm) but it's not done by manufacturers, one lad stating their template is 16-17 cm.
    Found it last year when i bought a hurley for the first time since 2001 and i made the exact remark as in the article - is that not a keepers hurl?
    Makes it easier to hit, distance is increased.
    Maybe if this rule was enforced there'd be more skill involved and less frees being converted from your own half, meaning the free will be taken as a pass to a team mate instead of a shot, ball is in open play more then. Just an idea


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    #70
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Deleted User wrote: »
    58 scores in a 70 minute match suggests scoring is too easy, irrespective of the numbers of frees. Ball was probably in play no more than 45 minutes. With nearly 60 scores that tell you there was little on no contest for possession.

    One i the most memorable games I can think off was the 97 quarter final between Kilkenny and Galway - 4-15 to 3 -16. Widely regarded as a very high scoring game at the time. With 20 more scores each score is devalued and the game becomes basketball, essentially an accuracy competition.

    Not to mention about 10 wides each


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    #71
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Wrinkly runner wrote: »
    It's clear as day limerick are streets ahead when it comes to the hand passing side of the game.
    It's like telling Barcelona,after 5 short passes you foul.
    To be honest I was shocked the newstalk lads even read out the text.

    A start would be to penalise the thrown ball which accounts for most so called hand passes (by all teams, not just Limerick).


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    #72
    Adelman of Beamfleot
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Adelman of Beamfleot


    threeball wrote: »
    For the record I have no issue with changing the core of the ball or with regulating bas size, I've had numerous posts on boards about that subject. I do however object to rule changes trying to curb the evolution of the game.

    A heavier sliothar is dangerous and shouldn't be considered but a less "bouncy" core is acceptable and the bás is just another rule thats ignored which is the issue in the first place.

    I keep coming across this blanket statement being made that a heavier ball is dangerous.
    What is the thinking here?
    Has anyone who ever played the game being overly concerned about the potential of being injured by the ball (Not withstanding goalkeepers who should have the critical parts of their anatomy protected anyway and Nash era penalty defenders)?
    Do many players get injured by the ball these days and would there be many more injured as a result of a 10% increase in weight in the ball?

    Surely if the mass of the ball is increased, in order to achieve the same acceleration previously achieved with a lighter ball, the force required increases proportionally?

    I'm not saying that I agree with a heavier ball, especially since as it has been repeatedly pointed out over the last few years that it is changes in composition of the ball that have lead to where we are rather than weight, but I just want to understand why people keep declaring a heavier ball to be dangerous


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    #73
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Edz87 wrote: »
    What did OP think of the Galway-Waterford game? 7-51 scored and only 8 points from frees

    Well I thought scoring was too easy. Its impossible to be a back these days. Scores should be hard earned.


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    #74
    LMK
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭LMK


    Hurling has been moving in the direction of "boring" for the last 15 years, ironically it has coincided with an era of unprecedented skilful hurlers on show.
    The most enjoyable hurling match I watched last year was the Joe McDonagh Final Antrim v Kerry.
    I have little interest now in watching games other than when my own county Limerick are playing, if Joe Canning is playing for Galway I'll definitely make an exception!!
    I think that the straight knockout no second chance championship up to the 00's was a big contributor to the excitement.


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    #75
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,927 ✭✭✭threeball


    Adelman of Beamfleot wrote: »
    I keep coming across this blanket statement being made that a heavier ball is dangerous.
    What is the thinking here?
    Has anyone who ever played the game being overly concerned about the potential of being injured by the ball (Not withstanding goalkeepers who should have the critical parts of their anatomy protected anyway and Nash era penalty defenders)?
    Do many players get injured by the ball these days and would there be many more injured as a result of a 10% increase in weight in the ball?

    Surely if the mass of the ball is increased, in order to achieve the same acceleration previously achieved with a lighter ball, the force required increases proportionally?

    I'm not saying that I agree with a heavier ball, especially since as it has been repeatedly pointed out over the last few years that it is changes in composition of the ball that have lead to where we are rather than weight, but I just want to understand why people keep declaring a heavier ball to be dangerous

    There's quite a bit of weight to a size 5 sliothar at the moment. You'll often see goalkeepers down for a few mins after getting a belt of one especially when one on one. I've see plenty of lads creased with one to the faceguard, chest and groin at club. Its a risk you take but adding weight and therefore mass adds more danger. Nashes penalties were banned not because they had done damage but because of the potential they had to do damage. This is a similar situation and as I said before, a well struck heavier ball will carry further and truer. If anything a lighter less controllable ball is going to have more of an effect as even a slight breeze makes anything past 60m a hit and hope.


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    #76
    shockframe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭shockframe


    It's a bit like the criticism of Snooker in the modern era. Players are so good now that they rarely miss!

    The high scoring is a bad thing in my view. The last decade has moved it closer to a 50 scores a game contest. When Sully scored that long range point in 2001 it was almost unheard of, now its a bit more common.

    I'm not too bothered about the yellow ball. But the lightness is a huge issue now. I loved the late 90s era above all else even though I'll accept it's not exactly riveting now it does feel like a lot has been lost.

    Even for all the rampant criticism of Football since the turn of the century it's a far better balanced game than Hurling right now. The ball is more or less the same and though scoring has improved its still much harder than it is in Hurling.


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    #77
    Treble double
    Registered Users Posts: 536 ✭✭✭Treble double


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    The weight isn’t lighter than it used to be, but the composition of it still means it goes a good bit further.
    I do think enforcing the rule on the bas would make a big difference too, but I doubt it’ll be done.

    It's amazing the amount of time that is put into, training, analysing and coaching in hurling. Its a stick and ball game and the most important fundamental part of the game is the equipment used, the sliothar and the hurl, there is a rule about the standard size and weight of these implements and yet it is not enforced, that is a farcical situation that wouldn't happen in any other serious sport.
    The analysis around hurling is awful as well. You have a load of former players only interested in personal promotion and gain who are not calling a spade a spade in relation to the modern game. There is an inferiority complex attached to the game and the pundits are afraid to say anything negative. The gushing and guffawing from the likes of anthony daly and brendan Cummins when there is a tight finish in what was otherwise and ordinary game is borderline embarrassing.
    A good start for theses so called pundits would be to show the ordinary punter a hurl and sliothar from the mid nineties and compare it to a hurl and sliothar from today, I'd be of the opinion you would be talking almost about different sports.
    They are too obsessed about sweepers, spare hands and swarm defences to make themselves sound relevant than to actually give us the nuts and bolts.


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    #78
    Rossvet
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Rossvet


    Stop the one handed throws for a start!


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    #79
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Have bigger ridges on the ball and make a change to the handpass rule. Something like there having to be a clear striking action for the handpass or limit it to 2 handpasses on a row.

    Hurling is played between the 2 45s now and when you see free takers putting the ball over with ease from inside their own 65, something has to change.


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    #80
    Pogue eile
    Registered Users Posts: 2,862 ✭✭✭Pogue eile


    Clareman wrote: »
    Have bigger ridges on the ball and make a change to the handpass rule. Something like there having to be a clear striking action for the handpass or limit it to 2 handpasses on a row.

    Hurling is played between the 2 45s now and when you see free takers putting the ball over with ease from inside their own 65, something has to change.

    You mean implement the rule that is already there then, there is nothing wrong with the rule its the implementation of it.

    something has to change alright - stop fouling!!


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    #81
    Adelman of Beamfleot
    Registered Users Posts: 26 ✭Adelman of Beamfleot


    threeball wrote: »
    There's quite a bit of weight to a size 5 sliothar at the moment. You'll often see goalkeepers down for a few mins after getting a belt of one especially when one on one. I've see plenty of lads creased with one to the faceguard, chest and groin at club. Its a risk you take but adding weight and therefore mass adds more danger. Nashes penalties were banned not because they had done damage but because of the potential they had to do damage. This is a similar situation and as I said before, a well struck heavier ball will carry further and truer. If anything a lighter less controllable ball is going to have more of an effect as even a slight breeze makes anything past 60m a hit and hope.

    My own opinion would be that the potential for injuries posed by the ball as it is are way down the list of 'dangers' a player faces, and if one would like their games to free of the potential for feeling pain then to use the same logic limiting the weight of hurleys would be more efficient as you're more likely to hurt from a belt of a hurley than the ball (obviously this is a ridiculous idea)

    You have stated that "a well struck heavier ball will carry further". Is this really true however?. If we take it to a bit of an extreme, if the ball stayed the same size and but was the weight of a shot putt would it still travel further than the current ball subject to the same force?


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    #82
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    jackboy wrote: »
    Donal Og is often a pain to listen to but I agreed with him the other night, the tackle needs to be looked at. Stopping a runner with arms or hurleys should be banned. Return the advantage to the small skilful guy. Let the tanks go play rugby.

    Cusack is never right about anything

    look at the ball composition, enforce the rule on the diameter of the hurl.

    Nobody goes to a hurling or football match to watch lads catching handpass after handpass until they thump the ball over the bar. As someone suggested: ban catching handpasses from both codes in favour of the core skill of both: controlling the ball with the foot or hurl


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    #83
    Rasputin11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭Rasputin11


    I'd like to see an exhibition game where all the refs blows for are dangerous fouls or technical ones. Let everything else go, the let it flow brigade might not be happy with what's produced. I recall a North Tipp Final a few years back between Nenagh and Burgess, the local let it flow ref was appointed, it resulted in one of the worst games that I've ever witnessed.


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    #84
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Clareman wrote: »
    Have bigger ridges on the ball and make a change to the handpass rule. Something like there having to be a clear striking action for the handpass or limit it to 2 handpasses on a row.

    Hurling is played between the 2 45s now and when you see free takers putting the ball over with ease from inside their own 65, something has to change.

    Your own countyman pointed one from
    Inside his 45 on Saturday.


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    #85
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    With players getting bigger & faster as well as the possession based games which are now happening I think there's going to be more and more fouling, pulling/dragging/pushing will always happen when you only have 1 hand free. Personally I'm not a fan of this possesion based game between the 45s where teams just work the ball to the free man around half way who then takes a shot. Bigger ridges on the ball will mean it's harder to catch, won't travel as far, will be more influenced by the wind and wouldn't be a huge change, maybe even bring in a new size 6 or something.


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    #86
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Rasputin11 wrote: »
    I'd like to see an exhibition game where all the refs blows for are dangerous fouls or technical ones. Let everything else go, the let it flow brigade might not be happy with what's produced. I recall a North Tipp Final a few years back between Nenagh and Burgess, the local let it flow ref was appointed, it resulted in one of the worst games that I've ever witnessed.

    You should come to some of the training matches I've been done, sometimes throw ins aren't even blown for :pac::pac::pac:


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    #87
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    Your own countyman pointed one from
    Inside his 45 on Saturday.

    Yeah, as great and all it is to see 30+ scores for both sides it's a boring sight to see a corner forward jog back well into his own half to score a point .


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    #88
    Davys Fits
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    Is there anything more depressing than watching a bunch of hurlers in a big huddle before a match running around in circles handpassing the ball 2 metres to each other? It sickens me to death to see this. No manager is going to agree with me of course.
    An if they increase the ball weight or reduce the hurley bos then there will be even more of this shyte hurling. There has been some very good suggestions here and elsewhere as to how to reduce the handpasses. Asking the refs to determine space between the ball and the hand is not one of them.


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    #89
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I actually think the GAA have been too reactive in recent years whenever there was a controversy in hurling, yellow balls, new penalty format, dismissal for cynical fouling, all came out of this tendency. Whenever the Sunday Game guys complained they jumped. There have been some improvements to be fair, refs used to be so reluctant to give even the most deserved of reds once, but that has gone out of the game now, much less tolerance of thuggery.
    But some really big issues, which definitely needed a reaction, have gone unchecked.
    It’s clear that the ball is going dead way too often, but nothing at all done. The celebrities didn’t pipe up about the way the game was going for years, so there was no problem, nothing done. Hurleys increased dramatically in diameter, but no enforcement of an eminently sensible regulation.


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    #90
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Clareman wrote: »
    Yeah, as great and all it is to see 30+ scores for both sides it's a boring sight to see a corner forward jog back well into his own half to score a point .

    But it’s not great to see 30+ scores for both sides! That’s facile thinking, that the greater the amount of scores the better the entertainment. Good defensive and midfield play used to be an enjoyable and essential of hurling, before it became all shoot outs.
    No doubt you remember the Clare Cork AI semi final of 05. A great game, with 31 scores. It’s not the kind of thing you see any more though.


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    #91
    crossman47
    Registered Users Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭crossman47


    Davys Fits wrote: »
    Is there anything more depressing than watching a bunch of hurlers in a big huddle before a match running around in circles handpassing the ball 2 metres to each other? It sickens me to death to see this. No manager is going to agree with me of course.
    An if they increase the ball weight or reduce the hurley bos then there will be even more of this shyte hurling. There has been some very good suggestions here and elsewhere as to how to reduce the handpasses. Asking the refs to determine space between the ball and the hand is not one of them.

    Totally agree. Proper reffing of the handpass (rule it out if not 100% clear) would go a long way to solving the problem. I was sickened a few years ago to see a coach introducing youngsters to hurling by teaching them how to hand pass as a first lesson!


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