Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

The_Wanderer · 15-06-2021 11:53am

theguzman wrote: »

4.5hrs from Tralee to Dublin on a train isn't acceptable in Kerry anymore.

4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 1:31pm

The_Wanderer wrote: »

4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.

Also, that is to Tralee, so allow 20-25mins travel to from Farranfore and it looks better.. then add 45mins from Dublin Airport to Dublin City centre versus 15mins on the LUAS from Heuston and the time savings are not nearly as significant as some are suggesting..

And there could be €3.5m of PSO money floating around, which is small change in railway terms but could be used for some targeted line speed improvements

Cookiemunster · 15-06-2021 1:33pm

Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 1:35pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

1123heavy · 15-06-2021 2:03pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.

Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.

andrewfaulk · 15-06-2021 2:30pm

1123heavy wrote: »

Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.

Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party

Masala · 15-06-2021 5:12pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Shamrockj · 15-06-2021 5:26pm

Masala wrote: »

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.

bk · 15-06-2021 6:25pm

Masala wrote: »

What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

Well first of all, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Coach all operate to Kerry, etc. So they got their value from those.

Also, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, etc. all greatly reduced their schedules over the last 18 months to match the greatly reduced demand.

It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if demand was greatly reduced then the schedule should have been reduced too on these flights to similarly match demand.

Shamrockj wrote: »

Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.

People have long questioned these PSO services, far before Covid, it isn't a new topic for this forum.

L1011 · 15-06-2021 6:27pm

A twice daily service can only be reduced to daily before it ceases being worth operating. That happened at times

Tenger · 15-06-2021 7:02pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party

I don’t think we need to be tarring anyone with that label.
Attack the post rather than the poster

gordongekko · 15-06-2021 7:16pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.

Tenger · 15-06-2021 7:33pm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

€10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

gordongekko wrote: »

A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.

I doubt that the contract has a clause to allow suspension of payments. If the Govt had of stopped the payments Stobart may have collapsed earlier. From lack of revenue and/or no interested investor.

And as pointed out above the frequency of flights was reduced. Im not sure but were these flight used for postal service? Which would make it an essential service.

Locker10a · 16-06-2021 11:53am

andrewfaulk wrote: »

.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

They are essential transport for many, for example those needing to travel from Donegal to Dublin for cancer treatments etc

16-06-2021 8:25pm

In a perfect world, someone would step in, finish off the airfield in Clifden & return the Galway PSO to there using Twin Otters. Motorway to Galway makes flying it unfeasible, but the further hour & a half drive beyond Galway city (presuming no snarlups at the bottleneck) would make it worthwhile. A bonus would be that it’d compete with Donegal & Kerry for the most beautiful approach to fly…

Stovepipe · 17-06-2021 3:55pm

The airfields at Clifden and Inishbofin are now under the hands of private individuals but are not yet operational,despite being ready for a few years now. On a side note,all of the regionals are used by private aircraft regularly,up to and including business jets, Waterford being a case in point. Waterford and Sligo both host aircraft maintenance companies and flying clubs/schools. Sligo host a weekend market and Waterford has it's associated business park. All of the regionals are routinely used by the SAR helis and the Air Corps,so they have a State function as well as a public function.In addition, regionals like Galway and Carrickfin have been used for cargo flights to carry fresh seafood to the UK and Europe. Knock has even got an aircraft scrapping firm working there, so regionals do have their uses.

17-06-2021 5:00pm

Aer Lingus update: https://www.aerlingus.com/support/flight-disruption-information/

Interesting to note…

Aer Lingus is ready to operate the Dublin / Kerry route, subject to an appropriate PSO arrangement being put in place. Aer Lingus is also actively exploring options that would enable the provision of a Dublin / Donegal service. Customers scheduled to travel on the Belfast City / East Midlands route before 27th June are being offered alternative flights

goingnowhere · 17-06-2021 5:38pm

Latest route arrangements

Operations by Aer Lingus

Belfast - Edinburgh
Belfast - Manchester
Belfast - Birmingham
Dublin - Manchester
Dublin - Edinburgh
Dublin - Glasgow

Operations by BA CityFlyer until at least 31st August 2021

Belfast - Leeds Bradford
Belfast - Exeter
Belfast - Glasgow (starts 2nd August 2021)
Belfast - Newquay (starts 3rd July 2021)

goingnowhere · 17-06-2021 5:47pm

Whoever gets the PSO routes will need to cut a deal with EI for interlining traffic to maximise passenger numbers so its a lot easier for EI to run the show. The previous arrangements the only thing different was flying ATR and not Airbus really, just like in the US. A separate operator, would mean rechecking bags, terminal changes, separate check in, separate website etc

If Stobart was operating independently, all the passengers would be stranded, but as it was under EI's brand there is an unprecedented effort to have a workable alternative (and slot sit to block anyone else coming in). We are in the era of weird airline economics, while undoubtedly EI is losing money running the regional routes with a A320, they are losing money with the aircraft sitting on the ground anyway.

EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant

They should have kept to A319's....

cson · 17-06-2021 6:59pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant.

Good luck getting that from a liquidated company. Even if they're a preferred creditor they'll be behind Revenue which means there'll typically be feck all left over as companies in Stobarts situation usually delay paying taxes etc to aid cash flow.

L1011 · 17-06-2021 7:36pm

The contract is with the extant parent firm, not the failed purchaser or the liquidated company; but its still not going to be easy to collect.

Jack1985 · 17-06-2021 8:20pm

In a statement, Esken said it remained responsible for “certain obligations to Aer Lingus under the franchise agreement” that became payable following its termination.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-likely-to-get-penalty-fee-in-wake-of-stobart-failure-1.4594385

basill · 17-06-2021 8:52pm

cson wrote: »

Good luck getting that from a liquidated company. Even if they're a preferred creditor they'll be behind Revenue which means there'll typically be feck all left over as companies in Stobarts situation usually delay paying taxes etc to aid cash flow.

I collect 10 wigits on your behalf (EI sells the tickets and uses its booking engine AFAIK). You owe me say 1 wigit. You are bust. Now do I give you the 10 wigits and then try to claim back the 1 wigit or do I give you 9 wigits. Or perhaps I decide I will hold onto more than 1 wigit to cover any contingent losses for you not fulfilling your side of the franchise. It then becomes a game of how much cash the liquidator is willing to spend in legal fees in order to recover the cash or whether they go after Esken who placed their subsidiary into liquidation in the first place and have various guarantees in place.

The J Stands for Jay · 18-06-2021 3:24pm

bk wrote: »

Well first of all, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Coach all operate to Kerry, etc. So they got their value from those.

It'd be nice to even have one of those operate to Donegal

The_Wanderer · 18-06-2021 4:07pm

McGaggs wrote: »

It'd be nice to even have one of those operate to Donegal

Eh Bus Eireann do! Three Expressway routes and several local services.

https://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1473240111-Network-Map.pdf

bk · 18-06-2021 4:23pm

The_Wanderer wrote: »

Eh Bus Eireann do! Three Expressway routes and several local services.

https://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1473240111-Network-Map.pdf

Plus there are a number of small local private family run companies who operate in Donegal quite successfully.

BTW I fully support the continued support of the PSO airline services to Donegal. I just like to be factual about the various different services that operate.

The_Wanderer · 19-06-2021 12:33am

bk wrote: »

I just like to be factual about the various different services that operate.

Exactly.

California Dreamer · 26-06-2021 5:33pm

Staff not getting paid next week despite previous guarantees.

Tenger · 26-06-2021 10:28pm

California Dreamer wrote: »

Staff not getting paid next week despite previous guarantees.

Behind a paywall;
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/stobart-air-workers-face-delays-in-getting-wages-promised-1.4603794

Stobart Air workers face delays in getting wages promised when the airline folded, while staff who transferred to its Belfast base last year fear for their redundancy payments.

The Irish carrier ceased trading two weeks ago when its British owner, Esken, ended financial support after a potential buyer for the airline failed to raise the cash needed.

As a goodwill gesture, Esken pledged to pay Stobart’s 480 workers all wages due up to the provisional liquidators’ appointment to the airline on June 14th.

However, the liquidators, who are facilitating the payment, told workers on Friday that company payroll staff needed more time to amend records, so the salary will not be paid as scheduled on Tuesday, June 29th.

Liquidators Ken Fennell and Mark Degnan of Deloitte Ireland say in a note that they are doing everything possible to speed up the payment and will update workers at a meeting next Tuesday.

Part of the problem is rooted in the fact that Stobart’s UK and Isle of Man subsidiaries have ceased trading but are not in liquidation. It is understood that this has created technical issues for payroll staff.

05-07-2021 9:42am

Domestic service expected to resume by October:
https://m.independent.ie/business/aer-lingus-regional-service-set-for-relaunch-by-october-40612869.html

L1011 · 05-07-2021 9:49am

Deleted User wrote: »

Domestic service expected to resume by October:
https://m.independent.ie/business/aer-lingus-regional-service-set-for-relaunch-by-october-40612869.html

That's not what the article says

Emerald expected to take on the EI Regional contract by October

Domestic to resume 'within the next couple of weeks' under an interim contract award. Loganair or Eastern are the only potentials for CFN at least.

05-07-2021 12:14pm

Sorry, on a phone. Couldn’t tap through

L1011 · 05-07-2021 1:14pm

Actually, I'll correct myself on my guess of only Logan or Eastern being possibles - cause of Brexit issues and the probably relatively high amount being paid for a short term contract, a wet leaser like DAT is also possible.