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Stobart air liquidated- the end of Irish domestic aviation?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    theguzman wrote: »
    4.5hrs from Tralee to Dublin on a train isn't acceptable in Kerry anymore.

    4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

    Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
    Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    4.5 hours? A quick search of the timetable reveals the fastest service Tralee to Heuston is:

    Fastest: 3 hours 41 minutes.
    Slowest: 4 hours 1 minute.

    Also, that is to Tralee, so allow 20-25mins travel to from Farranfore and it looks better.. then add 45mins from Dublin Airport to Dublin City centre versus 15mins on the LUAS from Heuston and the time savings are not nearly as significant as some are suggesting..

    And there could be €3.5m of PSO money floating around, which is small change in railway terms but could be used for some targeted line speed improvements


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,181 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    Well, the usual “Scrap the PSO” article has emerged. Surprised it took this long.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/regional-woes-are-flights-to-kerry-and-donegal-really-worth-7m-a-year-40539465.html

    €10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭1123heavy


    Eamonn Ryan was on Newstalk this morning saying the that they were looking at offers for a temp replacement operator for 7 months until a new permenant operator can be put in place. He didn't sound like a man who's about to kill the Dublin to Kerry PSO.

    Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

    This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

    Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
    Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
    Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

    This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭andrewfaulk


    1123heavy wrote: »
    Irish government consider giving an Estonian carrier who received a 30 Million Euro Estonian government bailout the Irish PSO.

    This takes jobs off an Irish airline who received 0 Euro in Irish government support and gives them to an Estonian airline who were supported by their government.

    Irish jobs to Estonian crews.
    Irish PSO grant to Estonian airline.
    Irish taxpaying employees in favour of Estonian taxpaying employees.

    This is disgusting and the top brass of government should be summoned to explain their actions IN FULL.

    Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,501 ✭✭✭Masala


    €10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

    What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????


  • Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭Shamrockj


    Masala wrote: »
    What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

    Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Masala wrote: »
    What about suspending the Trains or the Buses or the Luas or the Dart in past 18 months.... people in Mayo / Donegal / Kerry / Leitrim etc etc didn't get much value on using Dublin Bus over the last 18 months ????

    Well first of all, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Coach all operate to Kerry, etc. So they got their value from those.

    Also, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, etc. all greatly reduced their schedules over the last 18 months to match the greatly reduced demand.

    It wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that if demand was greatly reduced then the schedule should have been reduced too on these flights to similarly match demand.
    Shamrockj wrote: »
    Exactly. Very little if any public services have got much use over the previous 18 months. The PSO has been in operation for a very long time but only now people are questioning it’s value, interesting.

    People have long questioned these PSO services, far before Covid, it isn't a new topic for this forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A twice daily service can only be reduced to daily before it ceases being worth operating. That happened at times


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,927 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Well spoken, great way to throw your hat in the ring for transport spokesperson for the Irish Freedom party/Irexit party

    I don’t think we need to be tarring anyone with that label.
    Attack the post rather than the poster


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    €10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

    A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,927 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    €10.5million of tax payers funds essentially wasted in the past 18 months, there should be articles and scrutiny.. At the least the routes should have been suspended..
    A contract is a contract. We as a country need to honour our contracts.

    I doubt that the contract has a clause to allow suspension of payments. If the Govt had of stopped the payments Stobart may have collapsed earlier. From lack of revenue and/or no interested investor.

    And as pointed out above the frequency of flights was reduced. Im not sure but were these flight used for postal service? Which would make it an essential service.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,185 Mod ✭✭✭✭Locker10a


    .. At the least the routes should have been suspended..

    They are essential transport for many, for example those needing to travel from Donegal to Dublin for cancer treatments etc


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In a perfect world, someone would step in, finish off the airfield in Clifden & return the Galway PSO to there using Twin Otters. Motorway to Galway makes flying it unfeasible, but the further hour & a half drive beyond Galway city (presuming no snarlups at the bottleneck) would make it worthwhile. A bonus would be that it’d compete with Donegal & Kerry for the most beautiful approach to fly…


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The airfields at Clifden and Inishbofin are now under the hands of private individuals but are not yet operational,despite being ready for a few years now. On a side note,all of the regionals are used by private aircraft regularly,up to and including business jets, Waterford being a case in point. Waterford and Sligo both host aircraft maintenance companies and flying clubs/schools. Sligo host a weekend market and Waterford has it's associated business park. All of the regionals are routinely used by the SAR helis and the Air Corps,so they have a State function as well as a public function.In addition, regionals like Galway and Carrickfin have been used for cargo flights to carry fresh seafood to the UK and Europe. Knock has even got an aircraft scrapping firm working there, so regionals do have their uses.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Aer Lingus update: https://www.aerlingus.com/support/flight-disruption-information/

    Interesting to note…
    Aer Lingus is ready to operate the Dublin / Kerry route, subject to an appropriate PSO arrangement being put in place. Aer Lingus is also actively exploring options that would enable the provision of a Dublin / Donegal service. Customers scheduled to travel on the Belfast City / East Midlands route before 27th June are being offered alternative flights


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Latest route arrangements
    Operations by Aer Lingus

    Belfast - Edinburgh
    Belfast - Manchester
    Belfast - Birmingham
    Dublin - Manchester
    Dublin - Edinburgh
    Dublin - Glasgow

    Operations by BA CityFlyer until at least 31st August 2021

    Belfast - Leeds Bradford
    Belfast - Exeter
    Belfast - Glasgow (starts 2nd August 2021)
    Belfast - Newquay (starts 3rd July 2021)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,206 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Whoever gets the PSO routes will need to cut a deal with EI for interlining traffic to maximise passenger numbers so its a lot easier for EI to run the show. The previous arrangements the only thing different was flying ATR and not Airbus really, just like in the US. A separate operator, would mean rechecking bags, terminal changes, separate check in, separate website etc

    If Stobart was operating independently, all the passengers would be stranded, but as it was under EI's brand there is an unprecedented effort to have a workable alternative (and slot sit to block anyone else coming in). We are in the era of weird airline economics, while undoubtedly EI is losing money running the regional routes with a A320, they are losing money with the aircraft sitting on the ground anyway.

    EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant

    They should have kept to A319's....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,477 ✭✭✭✭cson


    EI is due a penalty fee from the contract also which could be significant.

    Good luck getting that from a liquidated company. Even if they're a preferred creditor they'll be behind Revenue which means there'll typically be feck all left over as companies in Stobarts situation usually delay paying taxes etc to aid cash flow.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The contract is with the extant parent firm, not the failed purchaser or the liquidated company; but its still not going to be easy to collect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,504 ✭✭✭Jack1985


    In a statement, Esken said it remained responsible for “certain obligations to Aer Lingus under the franchise agreement” that became payable following its termination.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/aer-lingus-likely-to-get-penalty-fee-in-wake-of-stobart-failure-1.4594385


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,349 ✭✭✭basill


    cson wrote: »
    Good luck getting that from a liquidated company. Even if they're a preferred creditor they'll be behind Revenue which means there'll typically be feck all left over as companies in Stobarts situation usually delay paying taxes etc to aid cash flow.


    I collect 10 wigits on your behalf (EI sells the tickets and uses its booking engine AFAIK). You owe me say 1 wigit. You are bust. Now do I give you the 10 wigits and then try to claim back the 1 wigit or do I give you 9 wigits. Or perhaps I decide I will hold onto more than 1 wigit to cover any contingent losses for you not fulfilling your side of the franchise. It then becomes a game of how much cash the liquidator is willing to spend in legal fees in order to recover the cash or whether they go after Esken who placed their subsidiary into liquidation in the first place and have various guarantees in place.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,806 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    bk wrote: »
    Well first of all, Irish Rail, Bus Eireann and Dublin Coach all operate to Kerry, etc. So they got their value from those.

    It'd be nice to even have one of those operate to Donegal


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    McGaggs wrote: »
    It'd be nice to even have one of those operate to Donegal

    Eh Bus Eireann do! Three Expressway routes and several local services.

    https://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1473240111-Network-Map.pdf


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eh Bus Eireann do! Three Expressway routes and several local services.

    https://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1473240111-Network-Map.pdf

    Plus there are a number of small local private family run companies who operate in Donegal quite successfully.

    BTW I fully support the continued support of the PSO airline services to Donegal. I just like to be factual about the various different services that operate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,054 ✭✭✭The_Wanderer


    bk wrote: »
    I just like to be factual about the various different services that operate.

    Exactly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,609 ✭✭✭California Dreamer


    Staff not getting paid next week despite previous guarantees.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,927 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Staff not getting paid next week despite previous guarantees.

    Behind a paywall;
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/stobart-air-workers-face-delays-in-getting-wages-promised-1.4603794




    Stobart Air workers face delays in getting wages promised when the airline folded, while staff who transferred to its Belfast base last year fear for their redundancy payments.

    The Irish carrier ceased trading two weeks ago when its British owner, Esken, ended financial support after a potential buyer for the airline failed to raise the cash needed.

    As a goodwill gesture, Esken pledged to pay Stobart’s 480 workers all wages due up to the provisional liquidators’ appointment to the airline on June 14th.

    However, the liquidators, who are facilitating the payment, told workers on Friday that company payroll staff needed more time to amend records, so the salary will not be paid as scheduled on Tuesday, June 29th.

    Liquidators Ken Fennell and Mark Degnan of Deloitte Ireland say in a note that they are doing everything possible to speed up the payment and will update workers at a meeting next Tuesday.

    Part of the problem is rooted in the fact that Stobart’s UK and Isle of Man subsidiaries have ceased trading but are not in liquidation. It is understood that this has created technical issues for payroll staff.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011



    That's not what the article says

    Emerald expected to take on the EI Regional contract by October

    Domestic to resume 'within the next couple of weeks' under an interim contract award. Loganair or Eastern are the only potentials for CFN at least.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry, on a phone. Couldn’t tap through


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Actually, I'll correct myself on my guess of only Logan or Eastern being possibles - cause of Brexit issues and the probably relatively high amount being paid for a short term contract, a wet leaser like DAT is also possible.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,543 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    New website was announced this morning..

    https://www.emeraldairlines.com/


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,543 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Emerald formally announced to replace Stobart, another 450 jobs which hopefully will be ex Stobart staff.

    https://www.aerlingus.com/blog/a-new-chapter-for-regional-flights-with-emerald-airlines/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,548 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    What are the options for flying to Edinburgh from Dublin, Shannon or Cork in the next month or so?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Aer Lingus are flying daily from Dublin to Edinburgh every morning, and an evening flight operates on Friday and Sunday.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    whoever designed the site can't tell an ATR cockpit from a 737.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    Not sure if previously mentioned but Emerald’s call sign will be Gemstone.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 9,927 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    The same callsign was used by the former UK airline of the same name so it is not original.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 645 ✭✭✭faoiarvok


    Emerald already being taken as an R/T callsign by Westair (EFF) in Shannon



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,847 ✭✭✭roadmaster




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There is an Emerald flight to Cork showing on the departure boards in DUB today. Presumably test data gone in by mistake.


    EAI 001 is the code being given



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭kevinandrew


    The first aircraft, EI-GPP, now wears ‘Operated by Emerald Airlines’ stickers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    It is a real flight, operated by ATR-72 EI-GPP.



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