Exemption from Irish - what are your experiences?

02-06-2021 12:27pm #1

Hi,

My children will be granted an exemption from Irish when they join a primary school, having been abroad for years.

I would like to hear from people whose kids are also eligible for an exemption: did you take the exemption, or not? What were your reasons for deciding what you did?

What do your kids do instead of Irish in primary / secondary schools and how has the application process for third level been affected, if at all?

Thanks,

byhookorbycrook · 02-06-2021 9:21pm

It varies,children with an exemption usually have one due to additional needs and would attend the learning support teacher at that time . Otherwise, there aren’t spare staff around , so your child may be given additional work to do independently. I’d allow them join in on the oral work , if at all possible. ( Primary )

starlady1 · 02-06-2021 9:37pm

Primary Level

Children who have Irish exemptions in my experience have been granted it due to literacy difficulties. As a consequence they generally work on literacy skills during Irish time or sometimes maths if that is an area of need for them. This may be done independently in class or they would attend a support teacher but this probably would not apply in your case as children would only attend a support teacher if they have additional needs.

I imagine if your children are finding any other subject difficult at primary level they would focus on that during Irish time.

I don't know about second level but there can be implications for third level.

Taken from the department's website:

Irish language requirements for entry to third level courses/programmes of study are at the discretion of the relevant colleges and universities. These requirements may be subject to change and it is therefore important that students/parents are aware of such requirements. Information on third level entry requirements can be accessed on relevant college/university websites. Typically, at post-primary level, guidance teachers have access to this information.

It is important that parents/guardians and pupils/students are made aware that Irish is an entry requirement for access to programmes for initial teacher education (primary) offered in the four state funded Higher Education Institutions.

Information on entry requirements to these primary teacher education courses is available at https://www.education.ie/en/Education-Staff/Information/-New-Teachers/-Initial-Teacher-Education-ITE-Primary.html

There is also a faqs section on Irish Exemptions which may be of interest to you.

https://www.education.ie/en/Parents/Information/Irish-Exemption/FAQs.html#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20an,he%2Fshe%20did%20not%20have

spookwoman · 02-06-2021 9:39pm

I don't know what it's like these days but when I didn't do Irish and religion I was usually in a room with others and left to study. I didn't do Irish because I refused, I hated it and thought it was a complete waste of time. Would have been better off learning another language.

Sleepy · 03-06-2021 4:02pm

There are a couple of kids in my daughters class that were lucky enough to qualify for exemptions. They do the same as she does during religion: work away independently (usually getting their homework done).

The general response from the rest of the class is envy. The biggest impact on future careers is that it may disqualify them from certain professions that have had an artificial requirement for the language added to them (e.g. primary teaching, the gardaí etc.)

03-06-2021 4:08pm

I joined national school in 5th class, I did take Irish.
By the time I was in first year I was the same as all other students and I did honours at leaving cert.
I know when Irish class was on in secondary school, there were no other classes timetabled against it, so I guess I would have been left to my own devices if I didn't do it, schools may be different now though, maybe more students not doing Irish etc.

I got a crash course in learning Irish which I reckon was a lot easier then how the rest of the students learned

03-06-2021 4:10pm

Sleepy wrote: »

There are a couple of kids in my daughters class that were lucky enough to qualify for exemptions. They do the same as she does during religion: work away independently (usually getting their homework done).

The general response from the rest of the class is envy. The biggest impact on future careers is that it may disqualify them from certain professions that have had an artificial requirement for the language added to them (e.g. primary teaching, the gardaí etc.)

Any second language is a requirement for AGS, but they do irish in the training college.

freshpopcorn · 03-06-2021 4:25pm

I did a very small bit of Irish in 1st class and didn’t do it again until 6th class.
I had a bit of a speech impediment and had resource hours. (These took place during Irish.)
Was resource useful to me? Yes, it was originally but in the end I ended up doing loads of stuff I didn’t need assistance with and sort of got sick of it and I basically refused to do it in 6th class and that’s how I ended up taking up Irish again.

In secondary school I didn’t have to do Irish either but I kept it on and had no regrets doing Ordinary Level.
Those who had exceptions generally went off and did work with another teacher. None of them took on French or German either in secondary school. However, that was 16 years ago.

jood22 · 23-06-2021 3:08am

bubblypop wrote: »

I joined national school in 5th class, I did take Irish.
By the time I was in first year I was the same as all other students and I did honours at leaving cert.
I know when Irish class was on in secondary school, there were no other classes timetabled against it, so I guess I would have been left to my own devices if I didn't do it, schools may be different now though, maybe more students not doing Irish etc.

I got a crash course in learning Irish which I reckon was a lot easier then how the rest of the students learned

what do you mean by crash course?? Did your parents get you something outside of school? Curious as we are due back to Ireland in the coming months and our daughter will be going into 5th also with very little Irish

Jim2007 · 23-06-2021 5:21am

Deleted User wrote: »

My children will be granted an exemption from Irish when they join a primary school, having been abroad for years.

How do your kids feel about it?

Both my kids are grown up now and never lived Ireland, so there never was a need for Irish. But both have done classes in recent years because they felt a bit left out when in Ireland with their cousins. Little things, like common phrases, the bit of Irish in speeches, place names etc….

The Mighty Quinn · 23-06-2021 5:29am

jood22 wrote: »

what do you mean by crash course?? Did your parents get you something outside of school? Curious as we are due back to Ireland in the coming months and our daughter will be going into 5th also with very little Irish

I'd say that's what the poster means.

When I left primary school my Irish was abysmal because our teachers were crap beyond belief at teaching us. Some in my class in first year then were years ahead of me.

I'd 3 great Irish teachers in secondary school and got a higher level A at leaving cert. Most of first year was spent by the teacher getting people "up to a level", she ran over all the basics again.

So out of school help at 5th class should easily help your daughter if she has any aptitude for learning in my opinion.

NIMAN · 23-06-2021 5:33am

Funny reading the comments here, and knowing that the northern assembly could be collapsed over the Irish language.

kowloonkev · 23-06-2021 5:38am

bubblypop wrote: »

I joined national school in 5th class, I did take Irish.
By the time I was in first year I was the same as all other students and I did honours at leaving cert.
I know when Irish class was on in secondary school, there were no other classes timetabled against it, so I guess I would have been left to my own devices if I didn't do it, schools may be different now though, maybe more students not doing Irish etc.

I got a crash course in learning Irish which I reckon was a lot easier then how the rest of the students learned

Really great to hear this positive attitude of getting on with it even though you were at a disadvantage. I'm sure it's a reflection on your parents too and has served you in good stead.

kowloonkev · 23-06-2021 5:38am

bubblypop wrote: »

I joined national school in 5th class, I did take Irish.
By the time I was in first year I was the same as all other students and I did honours at leaving cert.
I know when Irish class was on in secondary school, there were no other classes timetabled against it, so I guess I would have been left to my own devices if I didn't do it, schools may be different now though, maybe more students not doing Irish etc.

I got a crash course in learning Irish which I reckon was a lot easier then how the rest of the students learned

Really great to hear this positive attitude of getting on with it even though you were at a disadvantage. I'm sure it's a reflection on your parents too and has served you in good stead.

3DataModem · 23-06-2021 6:18am

NIMAN wrote: »

Funny reading the comments here, and knowing that the northern assembly could be collapsed over the Irish language.

Those who don't want it to be mandatory in Ireland and those who do want it to be recognised in Northern Ireland, want the same thing; choice.

23-06-2021 6:43am

jood22 wrote: »

what do you mean by crash course?? Did your parents get you something outside of school? Curious as we are due back to Ireland in the coming months and our daughter will be going into 5th also with very little Irish

No, it was the regular teacher, she just taught me very well, quickly I had caught up in no time. There were a couple of days where we would stay after class, but not for long
It was a rural school though, and had very small numbers.

23-06-2021 1:59pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

How do your kids feel about it?

Both my kids are grown up now and never lived Ireland, so there never was a need for Irish. But both have done classes in recent years because they felt a bit left out when in Ireland with their cousins. Little things, like common phrases, the bit of Irish in speeches, place names etc….

They are too young to be aware of it at this stage (both are under 5). I'm just thinking ahead.

The point you make about feeling left out is a valid one, and I've thought of it myself. They may feel more culturally aloof from their peers by not doing it.

On the other hand, I personally believe it is a complete waste of time, resources and intellectual energy in a schooling context.

I'd be inclined to give them a choice for primary and secondary, but avail of the opt-out from the university requirement so that they could focus on other subjects in the senior cycle.

23-06-2021 3:08pm

They are under five?
So not even a little bit behind in the learning?
Seems it's just your personal dislike of the language that is the main reason for them not doing Irish?
They might like it........

23-06-2021 3:53pm

bubblypop wrote: »

They are under five?
So not even a little bit behind in the learning?
Seems it's just your personal dislike of the language that is the main reason for them not doing Irish?
They might like it........

By the time we move back they will be significantly older, but...frankly my reasons are none of your business and your opinion on same is not requested.
I am simply looking for the experiences of parents or students who availed of the exemption.

23-06-2021 10:17pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

By the time we move back they will be significantly older, but...frankly my reasons are none of your business and your opinion on same is not requested.
I am simply looking for the experiences of parents or students who availed of the exemption.

Well your posting on a discussion board looking for experiences, and seeing as I was significantly older then your children when I started school here, I thought maybe my experience might help in some way.
But I can see you don't need any help from me or anyone really, apart from maybe a someone to teach you some manners.

byhookorbycrook · 23-06-2021 10:18pm

bubblypop wrote: »

Well your posting on a discussion board looking for experiences, and seeing as I was significantly older then your children when I started school here, I thought maybe my experience might help in some way.
But I can see you don't need any help from me or anyone really, apart from maybe a someone to teach you some manners.

Keep it civil, please .

24-06-2021 6:33am

bubblypop wrote: »

Well your posting on a discussion board looking for experiences, and seeing as I was significantly older then your children when I started school here, I thought maybe my experience might help in some way.
But I can see you don't need any help from me or anyone really, apart from maybe a someone to teach you some manners.

I prefer straight talking to passive aggressive insinuations myself, even it makes me sound blunt. For example, I don't use smily emoticons to make my insults seem more innocuous and constructive than they are.

I detected an all too common insinuation in your post that I have a complex about Irish and therefore I'm being an overbearing parent, bent on depriving my children of the beauty and blessings of the Irish language and all that it represents.

Aware that indulging you in this point could pitch the thread into a pro/anti Irish culture war, I answered you accordingly. No regrets.

24-06-2021 8:19am

Do you detect that I think you're a bit paranoid also?
You have taken an awful lot of personal issues there and somehow made the connection that I insinuated those things.

I merely said your kids might like Irish, which they might, they may be good at languages.
Calm down.

24-06-2021 8:22am

bubblypop wrote: »

Do you detect that I think you're a bit paranoid also?
You have taken an awful lot of personal issues there and somehow made the connection that I insinuated those things.

I merely said your kids might like Irish, which they might, they may be good at languages.
Calm down.

If you had merely said that, there wouldn't be an issue.

24-06-2021 8:23am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If you had merely said that, there wouldn't be an issue.

There is no issue.
Not with me anyway

Jim2007 · 24-06-2021 8:30am

Deleted User wrote: »

On the other hand, I personally believe it is a complete waste of time, resources and intellectual energy in a schooling context.
.

I can understand where you are coming from and when I was 17 or 18, I’d have been standing right there beside you. But now at the age of 58 I’d be standing opposite you!

Most people learn a language for it’s utility, their mother tongue simply to communicate, for work, travel, retire abroad and so on. And from that point of view Irish for most adults is a waste of time…. It’s not as if you’ll be unable to get your car serviced because you can’t talk to the mechanic!

But for a child it is different. It introduces them to the idea that there are other languages out there, they learn not only the grammatical concepts but experience putting in to practice and most importantly they learn to think in another language, it’s basically gymnastics for the brain! And the earlier the brain starts to learn these techniques the easier it is to learn other languages.

I’ve sat in German classes with Americans and English people and seen them fall further and further behind as they try to come to grips with the entire concept for the first time! Some are even afraid to try thinking in another language in case they might forget their English! It is truly amazing.

Swiss people have a reputation for being good at languages, especially those from the German speaking region. But it is not so impressive when you understand that the dialect they speak at home is not used in school. Basically from their first day in school they have to learn a new language, so they have an advantage right from the start.

This is purely my opinion, but I believe there is a big deficiency in the teaching of English grammar in Irish schools and it is compensated for by the fact that Irish teachers end up teaching English grammar.

So while I’d agree Irish does not have much to offer most adults, for a child it does teach a lot of skills that make the learning of other languages easier later on.

24-06-2021 8:37am

Jim2007 wrote: »

I can understand where you are coming from and when I was 17 or 18, I’d have been standing right there beside you. But now at the age of 58 I’d be standing opposite you!

Most people learn a language for it’s utility, their mother tongue simply to communicate, for work, travel, retire abroad and so on. And from that point of view Irish for most adults is a waste of time…. It’s not as if you’ll be unable to get your car serviced because you can’t talk to the mechanic!

But for a child it is different. It introduces them to the idea that there are other languages out there, they learn not only the grammatical concepts but experience putting in to practice and most importantly they learn to think in another language, it’s basically gymnastics for the brain! And the earlier the brain starts to learn these techniques the easier it is to learn other languages.

I’ve sat in German classes with Americans and English people and seen them fall further and further behind as they try to come to grips with the entire concept for the first time! Some are even afraid to try thinking in another language in case they might forget their English! It is truly amazing.

Swiss people have a reputation for being good at languages, especially those from the German speaking region. But it is not so impressive when you understand that the dialect they speak at home is not used in school. Basically from their first day in school they have to learn a new language, so they have an advantage right from the start.

This is purely my opinion, but I believe there is a big deficiency in the teaching of English grammar in Irish schools and it is compensated for by the fact that Irish teachers end up teaching English grammar.

So while I’d agree Irish does not have much to offer most adults, for a child it does teach a lot of skills that make the learning of other languages easier later on.

Actually I don't object to anything you've written. I just think that you could obtain the same expansion of the mind by teaching kids more - shall we say - thriving languages, i.e. languages spoken by millions or even billions of people in other countries, rather than Irish. My kids are both learning other languages currently -- their mother's (Tagalog) and Arabic (as it is mandatory in school here, and no the irony is not lost on me!)

Jim2007 · 24-06-2021 8:59am

bubblypop wrote: »

I merely said your kids might like Irish, which they might, they may be good at languages.

They almost certainly won’t and pretty much nobody is born good at languages it’s a skill the brain learns!

Kids are funny little buggers, they’re just like adults - if they can’t see a point to learning something they won’t. My daughter did not speak a word of English to me until she was about nine, although I always responded in English. She knew I understood her when she spoke in the local Zürich dialect, so why bother. It was not until she spent two weeks on her own with her Mayo cousins that she decided learning to speak English was important and she started to make a conscious effort to speak English to me. Not for my benefit, but hers, mind.

There are studies out there that show that people how speak more than one language have their brain wired differently. It’s a skill to be learned and just like most skills the more proficient you become the more enjoyable it is.

UID0 · 24-06-2021 9:14am

If your children are under 5, they won't be eligible for an exemption for having been abroad (unless you are a foreigner who is a diplomatic or consular representative in Ireland). The relevant Department of Education Circular is 0052/2019. It has made it much more difficult to get an Irish exemption.
On the basis of being abroad, the child has to be at least 12 and in/after the final year of primary school.
If the child has a SEN (Special Educational Need) they have to be in at least 2nd class to get an exemption and the school have to have documented their attempts to make the curriculum accessible to the child.
This change was brought in by Joe McHugh to enforce (as opposed to encourage) uptake of Irish by making it more difficult to be exempted.

24-06-2021 9:16am

Jim2007 wrote: »

They almost certainly won’t...

Kids are funny little buggers, they’re just like adults - if they can’t see a point to learning something they won’t. My daughter did not speak a word of English to me until she was about nine, although I always responded in English. She knew I understood her when she spoke in the local Zürich dialect, so why bother. It was not until she spent two weeks on her own with her Mayo cousins that she decided learning to speak English was important and she started to make a conscious effort to speak English to me. Not for my benefit, but hers, mind.

My eldest is just about to turn 5. A few weeks ago he got up and excused himself from his class when the Arabic teacher entered the room. When the staff followed him out and told him he had to learn, he actually argued (politely) with them that it wasn't necessary because none of his friends and family speak it, and "people don't speak it in the shops either". The teachers told me subsequently that they couldn't counter his points from the point of view of utility, which is all he was interested in.

He is only just 5.

For separate behavior-related reasons, we were advised to have a psychoeducational assessment done on him. As part of that, he was found to have an IQ two standard deviations above the mean. He's smarter than his parents and the psychologist told us that very often he is going to push back when rules don't make much sense to him.

There's just no way he will want to start Irish when he's 9 or 10. He'll already have a hard enough time moving away from all his friends to a cloudy, cold country without having to spend 20-30% of his time in school learning a language that for all intents and purposes, no one speaks*.

Now I could be wrong and if he tells me he wants to learn it, I'll raise no objections. But it's not going to happen.

*I know that some people really do speak Irish.

Jim2007 · 24-06-2021 9:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually I don't object to anything you've written. I just think that you could obtain the same expansion of the mind by teaching kids more - shall we say - thriving languages, i.e. languages spoken by millions or even billions of people in other countries, rather than Irish. My kids are both learning other languages currently -- their mother's (Tagalog) and Arabic (as it is mandatory in school here, and no the irony is not lost on me!)

Well if that is the case, I’d be very slow to exclude them from Irish, it’s not going to be particularly burdensome for them and it is part on the national identity.

I did not really appreciate how important that was for my kids until I heard my son described himself to an Italian border guard when he was about seven: I’m Irish but I have a Swiss mother! Although he has never lived in Ireland, at 23 he always Identifies as Irish, travels on an Irish passport and reads the Mayo News every week, follows the GAA etc! Where as my daughter does the exact opposite.

Exemption from Irish - what are your experiences?

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