When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

monument · 01-03-2021 2:23am

bk wrote: »

S-tog is great, but it isn’t all that different to what we have with Dart and aiming for with Dart+

S-tog is suburban commuter rail. It runs every 10 minutes with 8 car trains, serving commuter towns around Copenhagen. Sounds similar right? Much in the same way that our Dart has 8 carriage trains serving the likes of our commuter towns like Bray, Malahide, etc. at 10 minute frequencies.

It does have two advantages, it’s tracks are separate from regional and intercity rail, thus making it simpler to operate and more Metro like and they have 7 lines.

Of course I’d be careful of the 7 lines comparison, there is lots of overlap between their lines. I’m certain they would call our existing Dart line two lines, something like Malahide to Bray and Howth to Greystones.

With the completion of Dart+ (and hopefully Navan), with the exception of their ring line, we will have as extensive network, with similar number of real lines, line length and stations. So once Dart+ is done, quiet similar.

I think it is important to keep in mind some history. Ireland is just 100 years old as an independent country and we were dirt poor for most of that. Denmark on the their hand is a very rich country. Go back far enough you are basically talking about Vikings and the Denmark-Norwegian empire, 17th century lots of empire building and massive wealth brought in by their Navy. In the 20th century they are still a trading power, Maersk is a Danish company and they struck oil and gas too!

With all that long independent history and wealth, I’d hope they have a well developed infrastructure. And they started building S-tog in the 20’s with the first line opening in 1934.

We still have a massive infrastructure deficit compared to much of Europe that we continue to struggle to catch up on. But I think we are definitely making strides in the right direction, with Dart+ and Metrolink.

I definitely agree that we should look at Copenhagen as a model to follow for Dublin, but also remember why the difference exists.

A wider Dart network could have been funded more than once in our history and we have chosen time and time again to fund roads instead.

But my point was not re how far behind we are, but comparing the towns served in the vain that Dublin could service those towns by rail -- in the context of replying to what another poster had said.

I think the S-tog is very different from Dart now, and, while Dart+ will do some catching up, your point re the lack of segregation from intercity/regional might be a key one.

monument · 01-03-2021 2:25am

bk wrote: »

To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

A bike easily takes up the space of two extra people, so you have one person with a bike instead of at least three people.

Off peak that is fine and very welcome, but at peak times on jam packed trains, that seems pretty poor IMO. I'd feel terrible about people being left behind at peak times because I brought a bike on!

I suppose you could argue that even at peak times, the service should have enough capacity for passengers + bikes, but that seems a bit of a stretch IMO. If every passenger brought a bike, you need like 16 to 24 carriage trains!

We certainly don't have that sort of capacity on the DART today or likely in the future. I think the Amsterdam model of bikes at either end (plus bike and scooter rental schemes) is more feasible here.

Totally agree with that -- see: https://irishcycle.com/2019/11/19/heres-how-the-dutch-deal-with-bicycle-train-commuting-and-its-not-how-many-think-it-is/

But we well have to start spending large sums on bicycle parking at stations.

01-03-2021 2:37am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Then you should recognise that the road wont be used exclusively for commuting between Westport and Castlebar. The N5 is an important link for a sizable chunk of the country. It had an AADT over 13k at Castlebar in 2019, more than several parts of the motorway network, and almost 10k at Westport. The existing road is not suitable for that volume of traffic and needed to be replaced.

Wrong again, Pete. The new road is essentially between Castlebar and Westport, therefore it will be used between Castlebar and Westport.
The existing road is fine. It could be upgraded if needs be, they have decimated every last branch of nature there over the last few months so to bulldoze a few yards either way would be much easier than this white elephant they are ramming through the area.

cgcsb · 01-03-2021 4:34pm

There is a good argument in favour of further road development (although much less than the in the 2000s). Connecting the ports to the motorway network at Rosslare, Ringaskiddy and Foynes for example. Also completing the intercity motorway network by connecting Cork-Limerick and Dublin-Sligo. There's also a need to improve the secondary routes which are little more than boreens in parts for purely safety reasons.

That being said, public transport in and around the cities needs generations of improvements in the next 10 years and I'm afraid what's planned won't cut it. Between Busconnects, Metrolink, DART+ and the Luas projects we'll be about where the UK was in the 1990s, just not good enough, especially in the provincial cities. LSMATS and CMATS are plans for increasing car journeys. LSMATS actually rejects comuter rail in the City in the period up until 2040. Even within Dublin, assuming all current plans fruit, we'll still have hundreds of thousands of people living in urban areas that are outside the catchment of a rail line. By 2030 we'll still have massive capacity issues on luas and bus, perhaps also on the existing DART line. Demand management measures like higher fares at peak times will have to be rolled out.

We're also still building most new housing on greenfield sites, so at this point things can only deteriorate.

adocholiday · 01-03-2021 5:20pm

I live near Rathdrum in South County Wicklow and work in Dublin. The Rosslare train passes through Rathdrum but as a commuter service it's dreadful. There are 2 trains in the morning (pre-covid - only 1 now) and 1 service in the evening, and they both take over 90 minutes to cover a 60km journey on a good day. Bear in mind that beyond Greystones this train serves Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey, and Enniscorthy all of which are big towns with a sizeable commuter base to Dublin. Relatively speaking nobody uses the train, but the N11 is at a standstill from 7am-9am and 4pm-7pm every weekday, with heavy traffic maybe an hour either side of those bands. I absolutely cannot stand sitting in traffic, there is nothing more soul destroying, but even still the car is a better option for me because the train is so limited and so slow.

The M11 upgrade project is in the public consultation phase at the moment and honestly I think it's such a massive waste of money. I don't think it's going to make a massive difference to the congestion as it is and with all the housing being built from Gorey to Newtownmountkennedy the new capacity is just going to be eaten up in no time. I think for a proper difference to be made here, a proper double tracked high speed rail line from Rosslare to Dublin needs to be built in conjunction with the road upgrade. I would bet money that people would be much more inclined to use a train if it were viable. Especially now with the Brexit shenanigans we're probably going to see a lot more lorries etc. on the road too so I'd argue there's even more reason to do it.

AndrewJRenko · 01-03-2021 5:32pm

Isambard wrote: »

only has to save one life to pay for itself

Great, let's lower speed limits dramatically and actually enforce them for a change.

That will save multiple lives. You'd be up for that I'm sure?

cgcsb · 01-03-2021 5:40pm

adocholiday wrote: »

I live near Rathdrum in South County Wicklow and work in Dublin. The Rosslare train passes through Rathdrum but as a commuter service it's dreadful. There are 2 trains in the morning (pre-covid - only 1 now) and 1 service in the evening, and they both take over 90 minutes to cover a 60km journey on a good day. Bear in mind that beyond Greystones this train serves Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey, and Enniscorthy all of which are big towns with a sizeable commuter base to Dublin. Relatively speaking nobody uses the train, but the N11 is at a standstill from 7am-9am and 4pm-7pm every weekday, with heavy traffic maybe an hour either side of those bands. I absolutely cannot stand sitting in traffic, there is nothing more soul destroying, but even still the car is a better option for me because the train is so limited and so slow.

The M11 upgrade project is in the public consultation phase at the moment and honestly I think it's such a massive waste of money. I don't think it's going to make a massive difference to the congestion as it is and with all the housing being built from Gorey to Newtownmountkennedy the new capacity is just going to be eaten up in no time. I think for a proper difference to be made here, a proper double tracked high speed rail line from Rosslare to Dublin needs to be built in conjunction with the road upgrade. I would bet money that people would be much more inclined to use a train if it were viable. Especially now with the Brexit shenanigans we're probably going to see a lot more lorries etc. on the road too so I'd argue there's even more reason to do it.

I actually cannot get over how this project is advancing while the parallel rail line has seen virtually 0 investment since the state was created in 1922. The project is basically building a new commuter motorway, where a dual carriageway already exists, contrary to current transport and planning policy. Gas.

bk · 01-03-2021 6:07pm

Well I'd point out that people really shouldn't be commuting from the likes of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy. They are far too far from Dublin for a daily commute. It doesn't matter if it's by road or a high quality rail, folks shouldn't be giving up so much of their day to commuting and commuting such large distances.

I know people are commuting these distances, but I just don't think it is healthy, it isn't good for their physical or mental health.

And at these distances I don't think the discussion should be road or rail, we are asking the wrong questions then IMO.

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

Seaswimmer · 01-03-2021 7:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I actually cannot get over how this project is advancing while the parallel rail line has seen virtually 0 investment since the state was created in 1922. The project is basically building a new commuter motorway, where a dual carriageway already exists, contrary to current transport and planning policy. Gas.

But even if you upgrade the line from Enniscorthy up you are still stuck with a long haul in from Greystones (1 hour) and I cant see how that could be speeded up. 30km in 1 hour isn't exactly fast rail transport. So getting a major speed improvement from Enniscorthy will still have a low overall average speed due to the Dart constraints..

cgcsb · 01-03-2021 8:45pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

So getting a major speed improvement from Enniscorthy will still have a low overall average speed due to the Dart constraints..

So obviously this needs to be resolved more than there is a need for a new commuter motorway.

Isambard · 01-03-2021 9:09pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Great, let's lower speed limits dramatically and actually enforce them for a change.

That will save multiple lives. You'd be up for that I'm sure?

do you know, I can't think of a reason why not.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 10:32am

cgcsb wrote: »

So obviously this needs to be resolved more than there is a need for a new commuter motorway.

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

PhilOssophy · 02-03-2021 12:42pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

That is the problem. Greystones to the city centre the commuter trains sit behind the DART. The only realistic options (assuming there is no chance of just taking over vast swathes of roads which would probably prove unpopular with everybody) would be a railway line underground or a land reclamation project and a railway line built in what the sea is currently. Either those or we to construct a number of extra platforms to allow commuter trains to pass, but the train is so slow its hard to imagine it being worth it for what the saving is.

Both are phenomenally expensive though and hard to see any politician taking on the residents of Sandymount given they won't even allow a cycle lane.

adocholiday · 02-03-2021 1:10pm

bk wrote: »

Well I'd point out that people really shouldn't be commuting from the likes of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy. They are far too far from Dublin for a daily commute. It doesn't matter if it's by road or a high quality rail, folks shouldn't be giving up so much of their day to commuting and commuting such large distances.

I know people are commuting these distances, but I just don't think it is healthy, it isn't good for their physical or mental health.

And at these distances I don't think the discussion should be road or rail, we are asking the wrong questions then IMO.

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

I absolutely agree with you for the most part. I'd love to have the option of working for a software development company in Wicklow, Arklow or Gorey but the reality is that the vast vast majority of those firms are going to be based in Dublin for a whole host of reasons that can't be changed overnight. The same can be said for many other industries that are based mainly in the greater Dublin region. As a result housing will always be in demand in the Dublin area and so people are going to be commuting from these places for many years to come. There's also an argument for people who simply don't want to live in Dublin but likewise the commute can be seen as the price to pay for that.

However, regardless of all that nothing will change in either of those scenarios for many years to come and in the meantime we can't just wait for change, the Government is actively spending millions now to upgrade roads into Dublin that will be at or over capacity when they're finished. We have rail lines in place at the minute, we have people willing to use them if they're viable, so why not invest in them?

cgcsb · 02-03-2021 1:33pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

Lots of possibilities. If we're talking about building new motorways and retrofitting dual carriageways to provide more car capacity, then clearly there is significant budget available to solve the issue of capacity issue in a manor that is consistent with policy and doesn't induce greater demand for car travel. for example a number of passing loops could be built on the existing line. The Greystones-City gourney time need only decrease by about 10-15 minutes to offer a more attractive alternative to driving. DART+ South isn't designed yet, I'm sure this will offer some improvements. The next few years are going to see a massive reduction in car capacity in the centre of Dublin so building a new commuter motorway seems a bit of a waste of cash, you'll be 2 to 3 hours sitting in a car.

bk · 02-03-2021 3:24pm

adocholiday wrote: »

I absolutely agree with you for the most part. I'd love to have the option of working for a software development company in Wicklow, Arklow or Gorey but the reality is that the vast vast majority of those firms are going to be based in Dublin for a whole host of reasons that can't be changed overnight. The same can be said for many other industries that are based mainly in the greater Dublin region. As a result housing will always be in demand in the Dublin area and so people are going to be commuting from these places for many years to come. There's also an argument for people who simply don't want to live in Dublin but likewise the commute can be seen as the price to pay for that.

Why not apply for a remote working job so? I'm a software engineer myself and can work from anywhere in the world. Remote working is quickly becoming the norm in the software industry. I work daily with people spread all over the world, including people spread all over rural Ireland.

Lots of software companies currently hiring for remote positions at the moment.

Also if you are earning that sort of salary, then you most likely could afford to live in Dublin. Why have you decided to live so far out?

adocholiday wrote: »

We have rail lines in place at the minute, we have people willing to use them if they're viable, so why not invest in them?

We are, that is what the DART+ project is, looking to cost 2.6 Billion is all about.

The Rosslare line however is a special case, it faces unique issues that are vastly more difficult and expensive to fix then all the other lines.

The only way to really fix the issues it faces would be a completely new alignment into Dublin. Most likely a new tunnel under Bray head and then an underground tunnel all the way into Dublin city center!

You'd be talking about billions for this line alone. I think you can appreciate that it wouldn't pass a cost benefit analysis. The towns along the line simply have too small a population to justify that sort of spend and they are too far from Dublin, even with a new alignment, for regular commuting and it wouldn't be good planning or public transport policy to encourage them as commuter towns.

Realistically it just won't happen in any of our lifetimes.

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean about it. I think far too many Irish people rush off and buy their perfect dream home, only to realise they now have a soul crushing long commute and then demand super expensive roads or rails be built to fix their mistake.

I think we need to be honest with people about what distances are acceptable commutes and how investment will go to those areas inside that distance.

Commuting beyond that distance needs to be actively discouraged IMO.

Instead for towns like these we need to be encouraging remote working, the National Broadband Plan and settings up local business in these towns, etc.

And for those who have no choice but to live in Dublin, then affordable, quality housing, connected by high quality public transport.

Encouraging people to give up 3 hours a day to commuting is simply not healthy IMO.

02-03-2021 3:29pm

bk wrote: »

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

We shall see. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap narrows but not by Dublin improving but elsewhere getting worse. I live 80km from Dublin, plenty of people commute. 5 years ago a friend and I moved into a 3 bedroom house in a fairly shabby part of town for €650 a month. The cheapest house on Daft is now €1200 per month (thanks HAP!). If demand increases (rather than the artificial floor which has caused the increases so far) then Dublin will look more appealing if cheap rent away from the city no longer exists.

bk · 02-03-2021 3:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We shall see. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap narrows but not by Dublin improving but elsewhere getting worse. I live 80km from Dublin, plenty of people commute.

And this is terrible. But the solution isn't a 5 Billion+ rail line 130km to Enniscorthy and having people commute this far, turning half of Ireland into a spread out suburb of Dublin.

Dublin isn't London, it is a relatively small city of just over 1 million (urban, not Metro or GDA). There really isn't any reason why the majority of people working in Dublin shouldn't be living within roughly 30km of the city.

The issue here really isn't roads/rail to far flung towns, it is one of proper planning and politics. It is building the affordable, decent quality housing in Dublin and reasonably close to it.

02-03-2021 4:53pm

An 80km commute *shudder*

adocholiday · 02-03-2021 5:09pm

bk wrote: »

Why not apply for a remote working job so? I'm a software engineer myself and can work from anywhere in the world. Remote working is quickly becoming the norm in the software industry. I work daily with people spread all over the world, including people spread all over rural Ireland.

Lots of software companies currently hiring for remote positions at the moment.

Also if you are earning that sort of salary, then you most likely could afford to live in Dublin. Why have you decided to live so far out?

I actually have been remote working since last March and some level of remote work will likely be something that's available to me from now on, but the point I'm making is for commuters in general rather than just myself. Also I could afford to live in Dublin but for multiple reasons for another thread we prefer to live rurally. The commute was and is a price I'm willing to pay to live here but I still have strong feelings on how it could be better.

bk wrote: »

The Rosslare line however is a special case...

I do understand the issues facing an upgrade of the Rosslare line but again I come back to the Brexit scenario. In January the freight through Rosslare increased nearly 500% on the same month last year. Any lorry coming into Rosslare who has to deliver anywhere east of the Wicklow mountains right up to Dublin are likely to use the M11. Possibly even those heading for the M1, N2 or N3 but they could also use the N81. The point is that the N11 is going to face more traffic from Rosslare now anyway. Add to that the significant housing developments going on in Gorey, Arklow, Wicklow, Greystones, Bray... the capacity is going to be gone before they even complete the upgrade. We can bury our head in the sand and say ah it's too difficult/expensive to upgrade the rail line but not doing anything isn't viable either. Why not build a new track? Why not link the Luas to Bray/Greystones DART stations? There are options that can be considered I'm just throwing out ideas.

bk wrote: »

Sorry, I don't mean to be mean about it. I think far too many Irish people rush off and buy their perfect dream home, only to realise they now have a soul crushing long commute and then demand super expensive roads or rails be built to fix their mistake.

I think we need to be honest with people about what distances are acceptable commutes and how investment will go to those areas inside that distance.

Commuting beyond that distance needs to be actively discouraged IMO.

Instead for towns like these we need to be encouraging remote working, the National Broadband Plan and settings up local business in these towns, etc.

And for those who have no choice but to live in Dublin, then affordable, quality housing, connected by high quality public transport.

Encouraging people to give up 3 hours a day to commuting is simply not healthy IMO.

I do mostly agree with all of this by the way I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but with so many people working in Dublin it isn't feasible to have everyone live in the greater Dublin region either. I do agree that remote work, hubs, relocation incentives etc. should be the primary focus for companies who can use those methods but I think even with that people will still have to occasionally go to the office and some companies will never be able to work that way.

I knew what I was getting into when I moved here, I was prepared to accept that. But that doesn't mean we can't do anything about it. It doesn't have to take 3 hours per day to commute. Ireland is a small country and with proper high speed rail commute times from the likes of Gorey could be vastly reduced. It's about 90km from Gorey station to Connolly station by road which in no traffic takes about 80-90 minutes. The newest trains in the CIE fleet have top speeds of 100mph limited to 90mph but they go much slower due to the logistics of the tracks etc. The train should always be more viable than the car in terms of speed. The train may not be the silver bullet to all of these issues, but it's still better than just constantly building and expanding road after road and trying nothing else.

02-03-2021 5:26pm

bk wrote: »

And this is terrible. But the solution isn't a 5 Billion+ rail line 130km to Enniscorthy and having people commute this far, turning half of Ireland into a spread out suburb of Dublin.

Dublin isn't London, it is a relatively small city of just over 1 million (urban, not Metro or GDA). There really isn't any reason why the majority of people working in Dublin shouldn't be living within roughly 30km of the city.

The issue here really isn't roads/rail to far flung towns, it is one of proper planning and politics. It is building the affordable, decent quality housing in Dublin and reasonably close to it.

Certainly, but when rents go mental as they did in Dublin then that's what'll end up happening.
When getting around the city by PT is so hard it encourages it further.
As an example you can either commute from Drogheda, get the train and then the Luas/Bus elsewhere. Or live further north than Drogheda and drive and it'll likely take the same amount of time.

Deleted User wrote: »

An 80km commute *shudder*

Aye, and when I first got the early bus almost 15 years ago I saw people and thought "Jesus how do they do this every day?". Over a decade later and I occasionally saw the same people doing the same commute. But at the end of the day a €50k job in Dublin is a €30k job here and for most of the time the rent difference is huge as well. Without being lucky enough to live close by work in Dublin you can still quite easily be looking at an hour's commute by PT.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 5:32pm

Deleted User wrote: »

An 80km commute *shudder*

All relative I suppose. if you happen to be living on the outskirts of Athlone for example and working on the outskirts of Galway or vice versa it is probably an hour. A lot of driving and mileage on your car but probably a lot less commuting time than living in Swords and working in Sandyford for example.
But not for everyone..

GT89 · 02-03-2021 5:51pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

All relative I suppose. if you happen to be living on the outskirts of Athlone for example and working on the outskirts of Galway or vice versa it is probably an hour. A lot of driving and mileage on your car but probably a lot less commuting time than living in Swords and working in Sandyford for example.
But not for everyone..

Driving long distances with little traffic on the road is more mentally tiring than driving in urban stop start driving scenarios or using public transport. A long 80km commute each way is going to take more out of you than a 20km commute each where you are sitting in traffic most of the time. Even if both take the same time.

DublinWriter · 02-03-2021 5:54pm

Dublin needs to be devolved. It's insane. Dublin is the most populous area in Europe and outside Dublin it's the most unpopulous area in Europe.

Otherwise, wear hemp, spend €20 on designer coffee and travel to work on a bicycle maaaaaaaaaaaaaan.

bk · 02-03-2021 6:49pm

adocholiday wrote: »

I actually have been remote working since last March and some level of remote work will likely be something that's available to me from now on, but the point I'm making is for commuters in general rather than just myself. Also I could afford to live in Dublin but for multiple reasons for another thread we prefer to live rurally. The commute was and is a price I'm willing to pay to live here but I still have strong feelings on how it could be better.

Great, then problem solved.

If you are talking in general about people commuting from these towns, then we have to talk about if it is good planning policy to encourage people to commute so far?

Or is it better to spend the same money on public transport projects closer to the city and intensifying the transport networks there?

It is absolutely not good planning policy to promote commuting over such large distances.

adocholiday wrote: »

I do understand the issues facing an upgrade of the Rosslare line but again I come back to the Brexit scenario. In January the freight through Rosslare increased nearly 500% on the same month last year. Any lorry coming into Rosslare who has to deliver anywhere east of the Wicklow mountains right up to Dublin are likely to use the M11. Possibly even those heading for the M1, N2 or N3 but they could also use the N81. The point is that the N11 is going to face more traffic from Rosslare now anyway.

Rosslare is a roll-on, roll-off port, there is no demand for rail freight there and you certainly not going to be fitting much rail freight to Dublin on the already over-congested Dublin rail network.

While the increase of business at Rosslare is great, it certainly isn't anything that the road network can't handle.

adocholiday wrote: »

Why not build a new track? Why not link the Luas to Bray/Greystones DART stations? There are options that can be considered I'm just throwing out ideas.

Where are you going to build a new track?

Those of us who are interested in this subject have looked at it over and over and there is simply no easy and cheap way to improve services or simply "build a new track".

While of course technically anything can be done. Any new alignment would require massive amounts of tunnelling and/or CPO'ing of land in South Dublin, some of the most expensive property in the country.

Any new alignment would end up costing many billions of Euro. And for what a couple of small towns which are too far for regular commuting anyway?

If you are interested, I can go into the details of Brunnels Folly, etc.

Luas to Bray? Yes, that is on the cards, but won't change anything in terms of Rosslare line.

adocholiday wrote: »

Add to that the significant housing developments going on in Gorey, Arklow, Wicklow, Greystones, Bray... the capacity is going to be gone before they even complete the upgrade. We can bury our head in the sand and say ah it's too difficult/expensive to upgrade the rail line but not doing anything isn't viable either.

Bray and Greystones are fine, they are within normal commuting distance and are commuting towns.

But the rest are utter madness. Fine if these people are buying to live and work in their local areas, but if they are planning to commute to Dublin from there, then they are fooling themselves.

It is the usual old problem, people want the big house in the country, for a low price of course, but then want a quick commute into the city for their well paying job!

You can't have your cake and eat it. And why should the people of Ireland fund this lifestyle to the tune of Billions, for a relatively small number of people living so far out?

It wouldn't be a good way to spend our infrastructure money and it isn't sustainable living.

Zebra3 · 02-03-2021 7:26pm

DublinWriter wrote: »

Dublin is the most populous area in Europe

Have I missed something????

Citrus_8 · 02-03-2021 7:54pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Have I missed something????

You haven't, he's just making a joke. Dublin doesn't come into TOP 30 Europe cities neither by population, nor by density. Dublin is a small capital, comparing to other capital cities in Europe. And it's very badly designed due to no planning ahead for decades. I'm still surprised how many people in Dublin are against public transport priority and other changes to make it easier for more amount of people to get around the cities (not in cars obviously, as cars have very low capacity).

GT89 · 02-03-2021 8:27pm

bk wrote:

Bray and Greystones are fine, they are within normal commuting distance and are commuting towns.

But the rest are utter madness. Fine if these people are buying to live and work in their local areas, but if they are planning to commute to Dublin from there, then they are fooling themselves.

It is the usual old problem, people want the big house in the country, for a low price of course, but then want a quick commute into the city for their well paying job!

You can't have your cake and eat it. And why should the people of Ireland fund this lifestyle to the tune of Billions, for a relatively small number of people living so far out?

It wouldn't be a good way to spend our infrastructure money and it isn't sustainable living.

I agree that this commuting long distances is madness. However most people who buy houses outside of Dublin don't do so by choice they do so out of nessecity as they have been priced of the Dublin market and only afford to buy or rent property in places as far away as Gorey, Portlaoise, Mullingar and in some cases even as far away as Cavan or Monaghan.

Whilst there are some who do so because they want a larger house in the country. Most people who move out of Dublin move to housing estates in towns and villages.

donvito99 · 02-03-2021 8:46pm

Luas capacity issues aside, it's about 25 minutes from Sandyford/Stillorgan to Stephen's Green by tram. If you modified the N11/M50 between junction 11 Greystones and junction 14 Sandyford like the N4 between Leixlip and Liffey Valley (i.e. to include bus lanes), a bus + tram commute would offer a competitive journey time to the CC.

This would require the elimination or remodelling of some junctions, clearing and partial widening of the N11 and strengthening of road margins (especially in the Glen of the Downs) and would mean a reduction in speed limits for the N11 stretch to 80 as well as impacting cyclists.

buffalo · 02-03-2021 9:01pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Luas capacity issues aside, it's about 25 minutes from Sandyford/Stillorgan to Stephen's Green by tram. If you modified the N11/M50 between junction 11 Greystones and junction 14 Sandyford like the N4 between Leixlip and Liffey Valley (i.e. to include bus lanes), a bus + tram commute would offer a competitive journey time to the CC.

This would require the elimination or remodelling of some junctions, clearing and partial widening of the N11 and strengthening of road margins (especially in the Glen of the Downs) and would mean a reduction in speed limits for the N11 stretch to 80 as well as impacting cyclists.

Just make one of the existing lanes a bus lane - no work needed and you still get the journey time improvement.

GT89 · 02-03-2021 9:10pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Luas capacity issues aside, it's about 25 minutes from Sandyford/Stillorgan to Stephen's Green by tram. If you modified the N11/M50 between junction 11 Greystones and junction 14 Sandyford like the N4 between Leixlip and Liffey Valley (i.e. to include bus lanes), a bus + tram commute would offer a competitive journey time to the CC.

This would require the elimination or remodelling of some junctions, clearing and partial widening of the N11 and strengthening of road margins (especially in the Glen of the Downs) and would mean a reduction in speed limits for the N11 stretch to 80 as well as impacting cyclists.

I can't see many using a bus that goes for the entire journey on the m50 off peak. I can't see what advantages your proposed bus + Luas combo would offer over taking the Dart directly from Greystones to the cc or the Peak only 84x.

hurleronditch · 02-03-2021 9:11pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Absolutely I agree. But how can we speed up Greystones to city centre. We could make the east coast line (Wexford to Greystones) much faster by investing but we are always going to be stuck with 1 hour travel time for the last bit from Greystones. Which seems to me a bit too long to encourage people onto the train from further afield.

Would removing level crossings between Pearse and Greystones, improving signalling, driver training and likely some automation of how close the trains could travel be efficient enough to allow Greystones become a change hub? Set up very large park and ride facilities either in the town or at a new greenfield station just south of it, and run high(ish) speed darts every 5-10 mins in from Greystones to Pearse at rush hour. All of the Wexford trains terminate at Greystones and you change to an always waiting Dart. Cut out some of the **** stops en route in, or maybe allow one train an hour to be a stopper that stops everywhere, all others run semi express just picking up the main commuter stations on the way in.

Seaswimmer · 02-03-2021 11:49pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

Would removing level crossings between Pearse and Greystones, improving signalling, driver training and likely some automation of how close the trains could travel be efficient enough to allow Greystones become a change hub? Set up very large park and ride facilities either in the town or at a new greenfield station just south of it, and run high(ish) speed darts every 5-10 mins in from Greystones to Pearse at rush hour. All of the Wexford trains terminate at Greystones and you change to an always waiting Dart. Cut out some of the **** stops en route in, or maybe allow one train an hour to be a stopper that stops everywhere, all others run semi express just picking up the main commuter stations on the way in.

I don't know enough about rail to answer your suggestions but I do know that getting a large park and ride in Greystones is probably a non runner with the cost of land there.
With the bit I know about rail you couldn't run an express because with a 10 minute Dart frequency then there would be 3 or 4 Darts to pass out.
also Bray to Greystones is single track so unless you have somewhere to stack a pile of carriages in Greystones you wouldn't be able to provide a 5 or 10 minute frequency at rush hour.

the solution is a 3rd track between the 2 existing ones... a bit like the ghost bus in Harry Potter where the train can shrink when it meets another train:):)

monument · 02-03-2021 11:57pm

bk wrote: »

Well I'd point out that people really shouldn't be commuting from the likes of Arklow, Gorey, Enniscorthy. They are far too far from Dublin for a daily commute. It doesn't matter if it's by road or a high quality rail, folks shouldn't be giving up so much of their day to commuting and commuting such large distances.

I know people are commuting these distances, but I just don't think it is healthy, it isn't good for their physical or mental health.

And at these distances I don't think the discussion should be road or rail, we are asking the wrong questions then IMO.

Instead we should be asking why are people commuting so far? Why can't they live closer to Dublin or why can't they find work in their own towns?

I suspect part of the answer is more high quality affordable housing closer to and in Dublin, supported by high quality public transport, rather then building more road or rail to distant towns like these.

Dublin also clearly needs extra and more affordable housing (extra housing alone won't address the issue of people moving away to find cheaper housing).

The reality is some people don't want to or cannot live in cities and still have to travel to them if not daily then weekly -- and work isn't the only reason. Part of the solution will be to have more commuter towns or grow the existing ones close to Dublin.

But part of the solution is also to provide for longer-distance regional rail too. Keeping the motorway as the most attractive option will just push more people into pushing for more and more lanes. I don't think such commutes are ideal but by rail is in many ways more sustainable and healthier than by car. Eindhoven to Amsterdam is 120km and around 1hr 17 min by train -- the frequency is a train about every 15 min (including connecting services with little delay). Improving the services around their cities in the south east of the country is part of their plan to make rail more attractive than the motorway network.

I'm not saying Arklow or Longford etc will support that level of service any time soon, but calling such commutes "utter madness" isn't dealing with reality. Even if these places were grown to mainly be for working from home and working in local jobs, they'll still be a need for improved rail services compared to now. In saying all of that, I still think the main focus should be on what you call normal commuter distances.

PhilOssophy · 03-03-2021 10:50am

There is no easy answer to these issues, but continuing to put big industrial estates in Sandyford, Carrickmines, etc without properly integrating them with high-density residential housing (a combination of apartments and 3-4 bed houses and schools, shopping centres, pubs, etc) is just going to continue to cause us problems.
But the reality is, I think Irish people are becoming like the US in terms of filling the road to breaking point. So we could put another 3 lanes on the M50 and cars will fill it and it encourages more driving.
Our small towns aren't providing the point-to-point case for a high-speed rail lines for example. So if 5 people are living in Greystones, maybe 1 of them is working in City Centre, 3 are working in Sandyford, and 1 somewhere else.
I still think there is merit to an orbital metro service around the M50, connecting with several industrial estates and interchanging with the DART at Shankill and maybe connecting with several of the existing services at Tallaght and Broombridge for example.
Again, its all about giving people an option. If I had a choice between 1 hr of driving or 1 hr on a decent bus/tram/metro service, I would pick the latter every day of the week once it was reliable and on-time.

GT89 · 08-03-2021 10:34pm

What do other people here think of these plans. I think they are quite good hourly service on the majority of the network outside of Dublin is surely a very good thing and will genuinely encourage a modal shift. I'm not saying everyone in rural areas is going to drop the car in favour of the train but I think many will especially those living in towns.

Good link up with Bus Eireann regional services would also be preferable for those living outside the cities. Especially if train and bus times are linked. https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1368909934532960260?s=19

adocholiday · 08-03-2021 11:27pm

GT89 wrote: »

What do other people here think of these plans. I think they are quite good hourly service on the majority of the network outside of Dublin is surely a very good thing and will genuinely encourage a modal shift. I'm not saying everyone in rural areas is going to drop the car in favour of the train but I think many will especially those living in towns.

Good link up with Bus Eireann regional services would also be preferable for those living outside the cities. Especially if train and bus times are linked

I would definitely be much more favourable to using the Rosslare service if it were more frequent but only if they were to extend the operating hours. The last train to Rosslare departs Dublin Connolly at around 18:00 in non-Covid times. I'd love to see another service or 2 added for later in the evening so as a commuter I have actual usable options to get home!

bk · 08-03-2021 11:48pm

At a quick glance and without getting into the details, it looks pretty good. Exactly the type of development that the rail network needs and which can attract passengers out of their cars.

GT89 · 09-03-2021 12:02am

adocholiday wrote: »

I would definitely be much more favourable to using the Rosslare service if it were more frequent but only if they were to extend the operating hours. The last train to Rosslare departs Dublin Connolly at around 18:00 in non-Covid times. I'd love to see another service or 2 added for later in the evening so as a commuter I have actual usable options to get home!

Yeah that's true same in Waterford last train is 18:00

GT89 · 09-03-2021 12:09am

bk wrote: »

At a quick glance and without getting into the details, it looks pretty good. Exactly the type of development that the rail network needs and which can attract passengers out of their cars.

I would also hope the entire hourly is eventually electrified. Generally on the continent any line that has an hourly service or better is electrified. In most European countries anything of any significance is electrified with diesel trains used exclusively on lightly used branch lines with low levels of service.

cgcsb · 09-03-2021 2:30pm

I notice in that document they avoid mentioning specific journey time improvements on intercity, I guess because they failed to deliver on the last round.

They also avoid mentioning the high speed rail study and instead refer to the electrification of Dub-Bel and Dub-Cork becoming a 'a high-quality InterCity spine'. the improvements in the 2027 strategy are welcome but ultimately not nearly ambitious enough to see us to 2040 (or even to 2027, in my opinion). Most of what's described has been promised for about a decade or more now. Hopefully they'll focus on carrying this out now, rather than just writing more reports on it.

Particularly liked the increase of long distance commuters to every 20 mins at peak times. Also Dublin-Cork going to a half hourly frequency at peak with a reduced journey time is welcome. Although we were supposed to have a 2 hour journey by now as standard.

On the subject of rail journeys and carbon emissions, I wonder will the government now cease subsidising 1hr (plus min 2 hrs extra for security boarding and onward travel) flights from Dublin to Kerry when they've invested enough to slash Dub-Kerry rail journeys to under 3 hrs.

cgcsb · 09-03-2021 2:31pm

GT89 wrote: »

I would also hope the entire hourly is eventually electrified. Generally on the continent any line that has an hourly service or better is electrified. In most European countries anything of any significance is electrified with diesel trains used exclusively on lightly used branch lines with low levels of service.

I believe Germany is converting their lesser used diesel lines to hydrogen.

bk · 09-03-2021 3:09pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They also avoid mentioning the high speed rail study and instead refer to the electrification of Dub-Bel and Dub-Cork becoming a 'a high-quality InterCity spine'. the improvements in the 2027 strategy are welcome but ultimately not nearly ambitious enough to see us to 2040 (or even to 2027, in my opinion). Most of what's described has been promised for about a decade or more now. Hopefully they'll focus on carrying this out now, rather than just writing more reports on it.

Because true high speed rail is pie in the sky stuff and never going to happen in any of our lifetimes.

It is horrendously expensive with little demand for such a relatively small island.

On the other hand this plans looks far more reasonable and doable. While they don't specify what speed improvements, they do say that there will be speed improvements and with the changes being made throughout the network, they could well be quiet significant.

I think this is a good, well grounded plan, that is achievable and something we might actually see happen. If they blabbered on about high speed rail, etc. I'd be far more dubious that it was "just writing more reports".

cgcsb wrote: »

I believe Germany is converting their lesser used diesel lines to hydrogen.

Yes, I was thinking that or EV trains.

In the short term, it seems they will cascade existing Diesel trains from around Dublin to these other services as the new Dart+ trains arrive.

However in the long term, as those trains age and require replacement, they will then need to think about the next step.

Full electrification is one option. But as you say Hydrogen trains or Battery EV are also possibilities.

Isambard · 09-03-2021 3:12pm

High speed rail Dublin to Cork and Belfast can never happen because it implies non-stop and there simply aren't enough potential passengers for that and too many passengers from intermediate points who will be left with a worse service than they have now.

Pete_Cavan · 09-03-2021 3:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They also avoid mentioning the high speed rail study and instead refer to the electrification of Dub-Bel and Dub-Cork becoming a 'a high-quality InterCity spine'.

I'm pretty sure the references to high speed rail originally came from the agreement to get the parties at Stormont back together, and even that was just to consider it; just aspirational political waffle really. I assume IE have used different wording because they understand what high speed rail means and know that it is not realistic.

cgcsb · 09-03-2021 3:56pm

bk wrote: »

Because true high speed rail is pie in the sky stuff and never going to happen in any of our lifetimes.

It is horrendously expensive with little demand for such a relatively small island.

Right, but the definition of 'high-speed rail' is 200km/h plus. It's not pie in the sky to say that Cork-Belfast should have 210-220km/h speeds by 2040, in fact it should be expected of any modern European state. Aim low and you get less, which is a standard Irish cultural attitude I suppose.

With regard to high speed rail we're going to be left in the dust by smaller, more sparsely populated and poorer countries like Latvia by 2030, we need to be moving faster on these things if we've a hope of eventually reaching infrastructural parity with the mainland.

Rail Baltica connecting the capitals of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (the 3 countries combined have 6 million people), €16bn, over 600km of track and a 250km/h speed. Similiar project for Ireland is really not pie in the sky or over ambitious. They're at detailed design stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica

Remember, compared to Ireland these are basically second world countries.

cgcsb · 09-03-2021 3:58pm

Isambard wrote: »

High speed rail Dublin to Cork and Belfast can never happen because it implies non-stop.

No it doesn't. High-Speed = 200km/h +

09-03-2021 4:05pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not pie in the sky to say that Cork-Belfast should have 210-220km/h speeds by 2040

Belfast as a city has closer ties through Heritage to Glasgow and Edinburgh than it has to Cork. The example given to justify billions of euro of infrastructural spend doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Putting a fleet of electric propeller commuter aircraft at Belfast City Airport when they become COMMERCIALLY viable would make sense.

cgcsb · 09-03-2021 4:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Belfast as a city has closer ties through Heritage to Glasgow and Edinburgh than it has to Cork.

wtf??

Deleted User wrote: »

The example given to justify billions of euro of infrastructural spend doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

again wtf??

Deleted User wrote: »

Putting a fleet of electric propeller commuter aircraft at Belfast City Airport when they become COMMERCIALLY viable would make sense.

and a third wtf??

bk · 09-03-2021 6:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Right, but the definition of 'high-speed rail' is 200km/h plus. It's not pie in the sky to say that Cork-Belfast should have 210-220km/h speeds by 2040, in fact it should be expected of any modern European state.

If that can be achieved with the existing alignment, without building new greenfield track and for a reasonable cost, I'd be completely supportive of that.

They are talking about ordering new Belfast Intercity trains and I wouldn't be surprised if they might be capable of that.

cgcsb wrote: »

With regard to high speed rail we're going to be left in the dust by smaller, more sparsely populated and poorer countries like Latvia by 2030, we need to be moving faster on these things if we've a hope of eventually reaching infrastructural parity with the mainland.

Rail Baltica connecting the capitals of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (the 3 countries combined have 6 million people), €16bn, over 600km of track and a 250km/h speed. Similiar project for Ireland is really not pie in the sky or over ambitious. They're at detailed design stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica

Cringe and then you have lost me again.

You are talking about a line that crosses 5 countries!

Warsaw on one end, Metro population 3m with Helsinki at the other end, population 1.5m, with Riga in the middle, population 1m and a couple of other 500k cities along the way. A line that is considered strategic due to connecting Finland to the EU.

It is nowhere near comparable to Ireland and really it shows why Ireland is so unsuited to highspeed rail. An isolated island, with only one 1m+ city.

If we had 16bn spare, it would be vastly better spent on building 5 Metro lines. Can you imagine how that would transform our cities.

And where is the demand for this service? As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can certainly tell you it isn't there in Cork. Belfast only has a train every two hours and there isn't even enough demand for an air route between Cork, Dublin and Belfast. That is how low demand is.

It is complete nonsense, building true high speed rail in Ireland (separate line) would be a MASSIVE waste of money.

cgcsb wrote: »

Remember, compared to Ireland these are basically second world countries.

That is a pretty poor attitude!

By that definition we are a third world country. 1st world = NATO aligned, 2nd world = Soviet aligned, 3rd world - Neutral countries like Ireland, Switzerland, etc.

People from the Baltics hate being called 2nd world, as it reminds them of being trapped behind the iron curtain and the terrible things the soviets did to them. They feel the same way about being called this, as we do about being called British or the British Isles.

As for you throwing shade about these being "poorer countries", you might want to take a trip to them, it would be an eye opener for you.

These are very beautiful countries, with fantastic people, long, fantastic history, absolutely beautiful old historic cities and very quickly developing economies.

Dublin is a kip compared to Vilnius. Beautiful, historic old town and then the new city quarter with actual sky scrapers, unlike us!

In many ways they are far ahead of us, in terms of quality of life, infrastructure, etc. Even if they happen to be behind in terms of GDP and income.

These countries for centuries were part of a very rich and powerful empire that ruled much of Europe for centuries. They basically only got knocked back as a result of the two wars and subsequent 60 years of Soviet meddling.

I wouldn't be getting on my high horse about them being "poor" when we have only gotten sort of "wealthy" over the past 30 years and have non of the history and architecture they have.

When will the penny drop that we cannot keep building large roads?

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