The way forward for LC2021

Rosita · 23-01-2021 3:18pm

Funny how St Patrick's Day (a Wednesday) is mentioned so often as a date of significance.

In reality it's just seven school days from Easter break. If we get to that stage then the entire year and its assessments are up for grabs.

And the Taoiseach has just unleashed the "clarity" people so they'd better have some semblance of a plan ready.

rainbowtrout · 23-01-2021 3:20pm

Rosita wrote: »

Funny how St Patrick's Day (a Wednesday) is mentioned so often as a date of significance.

In reality it's just seven school days from Easter break. If we get to that stage then the entire year and its assessments are up for grabs.

And the Taoiseach has just unleashed the "clarity" people so they'd better have some semblance of a plan ready.

Unfortunately there will be people eyeing it up as a day to go on the piss. And bam back into L5 lockdown.

More to the point, I wonder did Norma learn from the radio this morning that this is what she is doing next week?:D

Rosita · 23-01-2021 3:25pm

My assumption is that we'll still be in Level 5 on St Patrick's Day. Won't stop people going on the piss mind.

micks_address · 23-01-2021 3:33pm

I think by end of feb there be decisions around leaving cert. growing talk that we in pretty severe lockdowns till summer. It’s already not going to be the same leaving cert with adjusted papers and i can’t see any chance of a normal sitting happening this year. 13 people died beside us in a nursing home from an outbreak. Leaving cert importance comes into sharp perspective versus life

Rosita · 23-01-2021 3:46pm

My daughter watched, in inconsolable disbelief, her 40 year old teacher's funeral on webcam last week so yeah it's serious and local.

History Queen · 23-01-2021 3:47pm

Rosita wrote: »

My daughter watched, in inconsolable disbelief, her 40 year old teacher's funeral on webcam last week so yeah it's serious and local.

Your poor daughter. And that teacher and his family. RIP

Rosita · 23-01-2021 3:54pm

French Toast wrote: »

Am I reading the situation wrong or is it possible that despite having much more time to prepare themselves this time around the DES have somehow managed to make this year's Leaving Cert an even bigger shít sandwich than last years?

You're not wrong. This looks like a toasted triple decker with a side order of chips.

am_zarathustra · 23-01-2021 4:15pm

Rosita wrote: »

My daughter watched, in inconsolable disbelief, her 40 year old teacher's funeral on webcam last week so yeah it's serious and local.

God, that's so awful.

mirrorwall14 · 23-01-2021 5:28pm

Rosita wrote: »

My daughter watched, in inconsolable disbelief, her 40 year old teacher's funeral on webcam last week so yeah it's serious and local.

Oh my I’m so sorry. That’s just awful

km79 · 23-01-2021 5:47pm

https://twitter.com/MichealLehane/status/1353020081341689857?s=08

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 5:29pm

So what’s everyone’s thoughts right now?

I don’t know how to square this circle to be honest politically and educationally.

Parents and Leaving certs want the thing cancelled/optional or at least the ones shouting loudest do. And they are a large voting block

Teachers by and large do not want predicated grades in my experience
I’d reckon government don’t want predicated grades either with the fiasco of last year and the court cases

If they give the option this far out there will be mass dropouts from school. Maybe a good thing from a social distancing perspective...

SEC don’t seem organised. There are no practical examiners or oral examiners hired yet.

So what do the government do?

I don’t know to be honest. Continuous assessment from now until the summer break? Some form of HPAT? Some form of UCAS system? Detach the CAO from the leaving cert entirely and let the colleges sort it out?

It’s a mess

History Queen · 24-01-2021 5:38pm

If they can find a safe way of getting LC students and teachers back to school I still believe exams can go ahead. Maybe I'm naive.

Str8outtaWuhan · 24-01-2021 5:44pm

Cancel practical and oral exams
Cancel Projects
Shift exam to July/August with teachers to work extra month (legally teachers are employed up to end of LC, or some such thing?? but it is never enforced)

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 5:45pm

History Queen wrote: »

If they can find a safe way of getting LC students and teachers back to school I still believe exams can go ahead. Maybe I'm naive.

That the thing, Im worried that ship has sailed with parents already so the voting block has spoken and I’m not sure the political will is there to keep it in the face of that. And the rhetoric has changed. Never mind that the SEC haven’t actually hired anyone

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 5:46pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Cancel practical and oral exams
Cancel Projects
Shift exam to July/August with teachers to work extra month (legally teachers are employed up to end of LC, or some such thing?? but it is never enforced)

Cancelling the practical in music would be an unmitigated disaster for students. Particularly the weaker cohort. It’s worth 50%!

History Queen · 24-01-2021 5:49pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That the thing, Im worried that ship has sailed with parents already so the voting block has spoken and I’m not sure the political will is there to keep it in the face of that. And the rhetoric has changed. Never mind that the SEC haven’t actually hired anyone

I'm kinda parking it in my mind and hoping for a decision this week. I know people are probably sick of me beating the same drum but the thoughts of predicted grades is repulsive to me. Fair enough if the exams can't run, (though I believe they can)there has to be other possibilities. We can't stay undermining our education system every single time the media whip up a frenzy.

micks_address · 24-01-2021 5:51pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Cancel practical and oral exams
Cancel Projects
Shift exam to July/August with teachers to work extra month (legally teachers are employed up to end of LC, or some such thing?? but it is never enforced)

The problem with cancelling or postponing is that it’s assuming things will go well in the meantime re vaccines etc. If it doesn’t then what? I think you have to plan for worst case scenario. It can’t be let’s wait and see.

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 5:52pm

History Queen wrote: »

I'm kinda parking it in my mind and hoping for a decision this week. I know people are probably sick of me beating the same drum but the thoughts of predicted grades is repulsive to me. Fair enough if the exams can't run, (though I believe they can)there has to be other possibilities. We can't stay undermining our education system every single time the media whip up a frenzy.

Totally get you. Ranking my students was just horrifying to be honest

History Queen · 24-01-2021 5:57pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Totally get you. Ranking my students was just horrifying to be honest

That, and I know this sounds stupid, but not being able to say a proper goodbye to the kids really upset me last year. Then realising after that their last impression of me was thinking that my opinion of them was their class rank. Schools are so much more than grades. Calculated grades strips us of that.

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 6:02pm

History Queen wrote: »

That, and I know this sounds stupid, but not being able to say a proper goodbye to the kids really upset me last year. Then realising after that their last impression of me was thinking that my opinion of them was their class rank. Schools are so much more than grades. Calculated grades strips us of that.

Yeah I totally get you. I had organised cover to take a double live with my 6th years at 125 that day. We got on for five minutes to get a bit emotional and to say goodbye because the announcement was due and had already been released to the media the night before. Awful. And they were a fabulous group to work with all the way through. With music you get to know them so well

Str8outtaWuhan · 24-01-2021 6:06pm

History Queen wrote: »

That, and I know this sounds stupid, but not being able to say a proper goodbye to the kids really upset me last year. Then realising after that their last impression of me was thinking that my opinion of them was their class rank. Schools are so much more than grades. Calculated grades strips us of that.

Have to say having worked in many countries around the world, The fact that teachers in ireland do not act as judge and jury for the purpose of state exams has always stood out as one of the few things our country got right. The anonymity of the state exam does level things to a certain degree.

mirrorwall14 · 24-01-2021 6:06pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Have to say having worked in many countries around the world, The fact that teachers in ireland do not act as judge and jury for the purpose of state exams has always stood out as one of the few things our country got right. The anonymity of the state exam does level things to a certain degree.

I agree. It’s my biggest fear with the reform of the LC that they will go for the cheapest option aka teachers grade their own student s

History Queen · 24-01-2021 6:09pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I agree. It’s my biggest fear with the reform of the LC that they will go for the cheapest option aka teachers grade their own student s

Exactly especially as a precedent has been set, the unions got guarantees last year that it was a one of and would only ever be voewed as such. This minister has gone back on so much I don't trust her, and if calculated grades happen again this year there goes the 'one off' argument.

Random sample · 24-01-2021 6:32pm

The practical and project elements are the ones students do well in, I think that’s a non runner.

Whatever about leaving certs parents, I don’t think it will be popular with parents of 5th years of this years class get off with predictive grades again.

Smacruairi · 24-01-2021 6:38pm

Those from the grind schools and those looking for the top grades don't want predicted. Their parents generally vote FG. I can't see FG pushing for it, so it all comes down to Norma and Michael and how they want to get a "win". They've already pinned their colors saying traditional leaving, and I still think it can go ahead, but the orals and practicals are vital.

But that's if they have thought of a plan b for those - or were the sec told not to plan for this, the same way the DES didn't seemingly plan for anything.

Random sample · 24-01-2021 6:42pm

What else are the sec staff doing though? Considering how busy they normally would be with junior and leaving cert, they had a much reduced workload last year. There’s a reason examiners have not been appointed yet. Sec staff are doing something else. I don’t know what!

am_zarathustra · 24-01-2021 7:36pm

Random sample wrote: »

What else are the sec staff doing though? Considering how busy they normally would be with junior and leaving cert, they had a much reduced workload last year. There’s a reason examiners have not been appointed yet. Sec staff are doing something else. I don’t know what!

What are they doing? It's very strange, almost complete radio silence. Maybe altering papers? I might be biased in science and maths but they've always been so efficient I can see this taking that long?

Rosita · 24-01-2021 7:47pm

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

Cancel practical and oral exams
Cancel Projects
Shift exam to July/August with teachers to work extra month (legally teachers are employed up to end of LC, or some such thing?? but it is never enforced)

Funny that you mention this. I teach a subject with a 40% oral component. If that was dropped they could sit the exam in April never mind August. No need to delay things at all then. And if they announce predicted grading we could do it at the end of January for all I'll see of them.

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 7:47pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

What are they doing? It's very strange, almost complete radio silence. Maybe altering papers? I might be biased in science and maths but they've always been so efficient I can see this taking that long?

Even at that, the admin staff who deal with processing the applications for examiners aren't going to be involved in that I imagine. There should still be a back up and application process. It costs nothing to put the forms online and have the applications in and then see what happens. If practicals etc were cancelled, it's just a case of shredding applications.

am_zarathustra · 24-01-2021 7:51pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Even at that, the admin staff who deal with processing the applications for examiners aren't going to be involved in that I imagine. There should still be a back up and application process. It costs nothing to put the forms online and have the applications in and then see what happens. If practicals etc were cancelled, it's just a case of shredding applications.

I can't see why this wouldn't be done. Assuming the JC doesn't happen they would probably have plenty of examiners but without a conference it would be difficult for first time correctors.

Maybe they know something we don't! I wonder what percentage of their staff are full time and what portion are seasonal.

Treppen · 24-01-2021 8:00pm

I'm puzzled about students looking for predicted grades .... prediction based on what? No Mocks, barely know them , online attempts at engaging. Handing up tests done at home with 100% results. Not handing up tests due to absence.

What even puzzles me more is them looking for a choice between exams or predicted grades ! Like that will end up in a really fair competition for the CAO.

If they get a choice then it'll be down tools time/ or go the other way of hyper-engaging :pac: !!!
Also, teachers will have to resist any attempt at contact from parents , and watch the inevitable craziness with students looking to re-do class work or spend all the time sucking up to the teacher, or querying an exam they only got a H2 in last October... And this will go on from February to .... June???

**************************

How about SEC Exams as late as possible ... but marked by Teachers in-house and attending an online markers conference (like SLARS). Then random samples, scanned and sent for cross moderation with other teachers!

Then the result could be a banding instead of specific %.

Banding awards points and let a lottery sort out access to courses. If you think about it, a lottery is used when a course is oversubscribed with equal-lowest points anyway!

***************************

The junior cert could be cancelled... that's in dire need of reform anyway :pac:

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 8:03pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

I can't see why this wouldn't be done. Assuming the JC doesn't happen they would probably have plenty of examiners but without a conference it would be difficult for first time correctors.

Maybe they know something we don't! I wonder what percentage of their staff are full time and what portion are seasonal.

At a guess I'd imagine a lot of the seasonal staff are there from June - August when the exams kick off.

When you consider the admin that is done in schools in a typical school year, that comes from the SEC. Distribution of results in August/ September, exam appeals around the same time. A variety of forms sent out to schools for various practical components, exam entries, application forms for orals, practicals etc, I know from the home ec teachers in my school that the practicals are marked around Christmas, and then everything else for orals and practicals is ramped up probably from Feb midterm break onwards. I'd imagine there must be full time admin staff to deal with all of this stuff over the course of the year.

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 8:06pm

Treppen wrote: »

**************************

How about SEC Exams as late as possible ... but marked by Teachers in-house and attending an online markers conference (like SLARS). Then random samples, scanned and sent for cross moderation with other teachers!

Then the result could be a banding instead of specific %.

***************************

No. Just, no. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If you have people marking, why wouldn't you just run marking like normal so people get papers anonymously.

Also, some people are great at teaching, but haven't a clue how to mark.

History Queen · 24-01-2021 8:17pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No. Just, no. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If you have people marking, why wouldn't you just run marking like normal so people get papers anonymously.

Also, some people are great at teaching, but haven't a clue how to mark.

Agree completely. This would open a can of worms arguably worse than predicted grades.

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 8:21pm

According to the Irish Times this evening everyone may not be back at school until Easter.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/most-children-may-not-return-to-classroom-until-close-to-easter-1.4466623

am_zarathustra · 24-01-2021 8:30pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No. Just, no. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If you have people marking, why wouldn't you just run marking like normal so people get papers anonymously.

Also, some people are great at teaching, but haven't a clue how to mark.

Jesus the standard would be all over the place. Even good markers, experienced at HL LC struggle to get the marks exactly the same every time. A lot of teachers know absolutely nothing about correcting, even though they really should. You couldn't start comparing their interpretation of the marking scheme to that of an experienced corrector

mtoutlemonde · 24-01-2021 8:46pm

With relation to SEC, I had accepted invitation to mark last year - do you think this would still stand i.e. they have adequate markers on a list?

Secondly, a lot of exams are marked electronically so online conference. There is more scrutiny with online marking as all advising examiners have access to all marked material and can prevent marker from continuing until advising examiner has contacted marker.

My biggest concern is the recruitment. In my subject, there were a surprisingly number of retired teachers at leaving cert and some out the classroom for 10+ years - a woman shocked me when she told me her age. Not being ageist, they may struggle with online marking even conference. I hope junior is scrapped - any Tom, Dick and Harry corrected my subject. The last time I marked, out 7, only 3 taught the subject and 1 was a teacher of a different subject.

The other problem will arise with inviligation - when I collect my exam box - it is about 80% retired teachers if not more - I couldn't see those coming out their houses after cocooning since last March for the daily rate for exams - they're putting their lives at risk - is it worth it?

I really hope exams go ahead but these problems above would need clarification - I would have to think about inviligation this year - you're going to a different school, different cleaning procedures, students you know nothing off and you're spending two hours minimum in a room with them and finally handling their work.

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 9:15pm

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

With relation to SEC, I had accepted invitation to mark last year - do you think this would still stand i.e. they have adequate markers on a list?

My experience is that if you were offered it last year then you would be offered it this year. As you commented below, there are retired teachers marking. Some have done it for a long time, but some subjects are having difficulty recruiting from what I hear last year or the year before.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

My biggest concern is the recruitment. In my subject, there were a surprisingly number of retired teachers at leaving cert and some out the classroom for 10+ years - a woman shocked me when she told me her age. Not being ageist, they may struggle with online marking even conference. I hope junior is scrapped - any Tom, Dick and Harry corrected my subject. The last time I marked, out 7, only 3 taught the subject and 1 was a teacher of a different subject.

I don't think that's an issue. Everyone would be trained on how to mark online. There's plenty of young teachers who are not very tech savvy beyond the basics of social media and powerpoint.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

The other problem will arise with inviligation - when I collect my exam box - it is about 80% retired teachers if not more - I couldn't see those coming out their houses after cocooning since last March for the daily rate for exams - they're putting their lives at risk - is it worth it?

That's hard to say, all of them will have the vaccine by the summer. There are also plenty of teachers who apply and don't get it every year. I'm teaching 20 years, have applied loads of times and never got it.

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I really hope exams go ahead but these problems above would need clarification - I would have to think about inviligation this year - you're going to a different school, different cleaning procedures, students you know nothing off and you're spending two hours minimum in a room with them and finally handling their work.

I don't think it matters if you know the students or not. Even with your own students, you don't know what they do outside of school hours. It wouldn't be any different in any other school. It's a bunch of students wearing masks in a classroom. You can bring disinfectant and hand sanitizer for anything you touch. Not much different from going into a supermarket. Have you picked anything up off a shelf in the last 9 months and then put it back? I'm sure loads have.

Treppen · 24-01-2021 9:21pm

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Jesus the standard would be all over the place. Even good markers, experienced at HL LC struggle to get the marks exactly the same every time. A lot of teachers know absolutely nothing about correcting, even though they really should. You couldn't start comparing their interpretation of the marking scheme to that of an experienced corrector

Compare that to the standard of individual teacher predicted grades from a hotchpotch of unique class tests and interactions.

Teach30 · 24-01-2021 9:24pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No. Just, no. :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

If you have people marking, why wouldn't you just run marking like normal so people get papers anonymously.

Also, some people are great at teaching, but haven't a clue how to mark.

I agree, I love teaching but detest correcting. Have no interest in correcting at any level, I just dont have the attention span for it. I give the bare minimum of tests.

With that in mind I also have very little to go on if I have to predict. I’m a terrible record keeper I gave back tests but forget to keep note of all of them. I never record who hands up homework but I’d have a fair idea, just no actual record.

I’ve had an email from one of my LCs today hoping I’m doing well... that’s the start of the licking up now.

Random sample · 24-01-2021 9:26pm

The sec have said they will send out the usual reappointment form to everyone who applied last year. It’s not assumed that you will do it.

am_zarathustra · 24-01-2021 9:36pm

Treppen wrote: »

Compare that to the standard of individual teacher predicted grades from a hotchpotch of unique class tests and interactions.

Absolutely, it's would be better if everyone had the same exam corrected from the same marrking scheme but given most subjects are online now what is the benefit? You'd just get an ok system in place instead of just using the SEC system and sticking with your experienced examiners correcting blindly!

Wombatman · 24-01-2021 9:39pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I’ve had an email from one of my LCs today hoping I’m doing well... that’s the start of the licking up now.

That type of imitative had to be worth a couple of points. It's rewarded in every workplace right, so should prepare them for life after education? :pac:

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 9:40pm

Treppen wrote: »

Compare that to the standard of individual teacher predicted grades from a hotchpotch of unique class tests and interactions.

There was very little to lose in writing down a H1 or H6 for a student last year. Literally the only thing submitted was the form we wrote the mark on. Crazy when you think about it. But it was a predicted grade.

You get into the territory of actual marking you'll have teachers looking at papers where students are on 89% and actively looking for marks to get them to 90%, or down the other end of the scale so they will pass. There is the subjectivity of 'Ah he hasn't really worded it correctly, but I know he knows this, he's been able to explain it in class in the past' vs 'That little bollix hasn't done a stroke of work all year' And can you imagine the appeals???

Teachers way overmarked last year with predicted grades.

Normally 5.4% of all grades are H1s. With predicted grades it was 9%. Before the DES moderated, it was 13.4%. Apply that to marking......

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40044278.html

rainbowtrout · 24-01-2021 9:41pm

Teach30 wrote: »

I agree, I love teaching but detest correcting. Have no interest in correcting at any level, I just dont have the attention span for it. I give the bare minimum of tests.

With that in mind I also have very little to go on if I have to predict. I’m a terrible record keeper I gave back tests but forget to keep note of all of them. I never record who hands up homework but I’d have a fair idea, just no actual record.

I’ve had an email from one of my LCs today hoping I’m doing well... that’s the start of the licking up now.

And that's another issue. Foisting marking the Leaving Cert on people who have never done it and have no desire to do it would be a disaster.

deiseindublin · 24-01-2021 10:14pm

Random sample wrote: »

What else are the sec staff doing though? Considering how busy they normally would be with junior and leaving cert, they had a much reduced workload last year. There’s a reason examiners have not been appointed yet. Sec staff are doing something else. I don’t know what!

I'd say they are busy at mo getting results out for November LC exams. Also, making sure they have drafts and examiner applications for all 2021 papers, just in case, along with LCA session credits etc.

I'd say they have to be sitting with all ready, just not sending the letters.

Anytime I've been there they have been up the walls busy, you never see somebody standing still. Also, SEC guy told me that quite a few of them have been seconded to SW dept.

am_zarathustra · 24-01-2021 10:43pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

I'd say they are busy at mo getting results out for November LC exams. Also, making sure they have drafts and examiner applications for all 2021 papers, just in case, along with LCA session credits etc.

I'd say they have to be sitting with all ready, just not sending the letters.

Anytime I've been there they have been up the walls busy, you never see somebody standing still. Also, SEC guy told me that quite a few of them have been seconded to SW dept.

I actually didn't account for secondments actually, that makes sense!!

shesty · 24-01-2021 11:04pm

Angry these discussions are happening now and didn't happen in the 5 months between March and August last year.That they let schools go back with no contingency plans for numbers rising.

Not surprising but it makes me beyond angry all the same.

amacca · 24-01-2021 11:23pm

shesty wrote: »

Angry these discussions are happening now and didn't happen in the 5 months between March and August last year.That they let schools go back with no contingency plans for numbers rising.

Not surprising but it makes me beyond angry all the same.

They did have a contingency plan of sorts:D

It's name was operation Foley..........

Treppen · 25-01-2021 2:23am

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Absolutely, it's would be better if everyone had the same exam corrected from the same marrking scheme but given most subjects are online now what is the benefit? You'd just get an ok system in place instead of just using the SEC system and sticking with your experienced examiners correcting blindly!

I was thinking of it reducing the turnaround time from one month conference and marking, to one week... Especially if exams have to be pushed back from June .

The way forward for LC2021

Comments