Stallions

UrbanSea · 23-10-2011 1:13pm

tryfix wrote: »

They used to do well years ago with these types, Don't Forget Me and Tirol Hannons 2000 guineas winners were two I remember. A good source of handicappers and minor pattern horses, not sure the market is there for them with so many well bred horses available nowadays. Canford Cliffs was an exceptional horse his Coventry win was top drawer stuff, but he doesn't have what it takes to mix it with the big boy sires. Can't say I find Excelebration too exciting either, he has the exceed and excel thing going on but it doesn't excite me and I'd rather if he had been a top 2yo as well as showing good form this year.

They have a few interesting prospects coming along in Ballydoyle, Power(Oasis Dream), Zoffany(Dansili), Crusade(MrGreeley), Daddy Long legs(Scat Daddy) and a few other nice ones from outside of the Coolmore Stud.

Nice to see Pimpernel franking Wadings form today.

I can see Excelebration smashing Canford Cliffs at stud.CC will get the better mares when he first goes but over time we'll see Excelebration as better. Why they would buy a colt by Tagula is beyond me (1 group 1 winner)
Scat Daddy is a Coolmore stallion

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Theirs nothing between montjeu and Galileo, if anything montjeu heads Galileo sightly.. As for sires that have their first crop of foals on the ground now, fastnet rock and mastercraftsman take the honours...

Galileo wins hands down I think.
He can get milers up to a mile and three quarters,colts and fillies.

tryfix · 23-10-2011 1:52pm

UrbanSea wrote: »

I can see Excelebration smashing Canford Cliffs at stud.CC will get the better mares when he first goes but over time we'll see Excelebration as better. Why they would buy a colt by Tagula is beyond me (1 group 1 winner)

There is a market for this type of horse he will produce plenty of decent precocious 2yo and handicap winners, the bread and butter end of English racing. It's a commercial decision, not everybody is trying to breed classic hopes and coolmore will have no problem making a nice profit on him. Excelebration is better bred and has potential but I don't think he'll be anything special.

Scat Daddy is a Coolmore stallion.

I knew that, but he's Coolmore USA from the Storm Cat line, something from outside the conveyor belt of the Sadlers Wells , Danehill lines that Coolmore is full of. I would love to see them make a proper stallion out of Await the Dawn or some other Giants Causeway Colt to compete with Shamardal.

UrbanSea · 23-10-2011 11:36pm

He won't necessarily get precocious two year olds though.

If he gets decent mares and fails with them then they might'nt be precocious two year olds as many of the dams might have been classic generation and above.

Look at Tagula's progeny. 26 listed winners for a stallion is not great striking.

I'd imagine Excelebrations could be more precocious with Exceed and Excel in the bloodline

tryfix · 24-10-2011 12:03am

UrbanSea wrote: »

He won't necessarily get precocious two year olds though.

If he gets decent mares and fails with them then they might'nt be precocious two year olds as many of the dams might have been classic generation and above.

Look at Tagula's progeny. 26 listed winners for a stallion is not great striking.

He'll be alright on the winners front but there will be few quality mares sent to him. Breeders know what they're going to get with him , he'll be a prolific source of moderate winners with some Hannon type pattern horses and always the promise of a one off special one like himself.

I'd imagine Excelebrations could be more precocious with Exceed and Excel in the bloodline

I don't know what to make of this fellow at all, he seems to have the pedigree of a precocious 2yo who would make a sprinter/7f horse but he's definitely a miler. I don't think he'll get as many precocious types as Canford Cliffs but they'll be better quality animals.

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 11:15am

That's true.

I'll be looking forward to New Approach,Raven's Pass and Henrythenavigator's two year olds.
Wonder will many of Henry's be in the UK

JimDeChamp · 24-10-2011 5:06pm

Montjeu covers less than half the number of mares that Galileo covers, so how you can say gallieo is better is beyond me, I remember when Galileo was covering national hunt mares...! Galileo has only become a big shot in the last couple of years...!

tryfix · 24-10-2011 7:03pm

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Montjeu covers less than half the number of mares that Galileo covers, so how you can say gallieo is better is beyond me, I remember when Galileo was covering national hunt mares...! Galileo has only become a big shot in the last couple of years...!

Montjeu is the best sire of Derby winners we are likely to see. 3 Epsoms, 3 Irish and counting. His talent as a sire lies at 1m 4f.

WINSRUNS%2ND3RD£ PRIZEWorldwide G1 43 357 12 40 23 12,006,856

Galileo is also a great sire of Derby winners 1 Epsom and 3 Irish. He can sire them to win at all distances, Brilliant as Montjeu is he can't be rated superior to a sire that could do this.

9 individual 3y old GP1 winners for Galileo this year .

Together, Misty for me, Igugu, Nathaniel, Treasure Beach, Galikova, Roderick O Connor, Golden Lilac and Frankel.

WINSRUNS%2ND3RD£ PRIZEWorldwide G1 51 342 15 47 27 12,945,202

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 7:47pm

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Montjeu covers less than half the number of mares that Galileo covers, so how you can say gallieo is better is beyond me, I remember when Galileo was covering national hunt mares...! Galileo has only become a big shot in the last couple of years...!

Where did you get that stat from or did you make it up?

Montjeu stands at 75k,Galileo is private,but I think he's in and around 250k. I don't know if he covers as many.

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 7:57pm

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Montjeu covers less than half the number of mares that Galileo covers, so how you can say gallieo is better is beyond me, I remember when Galileo was covering national hunt mares...! Galileo has only become a big shot in the last couple of years...!

http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?horse_id=531769&popup=1&tab=sales
http://bloodstock.racingpost.com/stallionbook/stallion.sd?horse_id=503034&popup=1&tab=sales

Sales statistics. In the space of a year Galileo has had 187 and Montjeu 153...Hardly half.

JimDeChamp · 24-10-2011 10:47pm

Montjeu covers 2 mares a day no more...! Gallieo covers 4...! Don't for get montjeu was 150k last year and is certin to go back In price next season... Galileo is 300k...!

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 10:53pm

Fair enough.

But with Montjeu,what you mostly get is a mile and a half tough 3 year old colt.

With Galileo you can get precocious two year olds who train on extremely well,and can produce champion older horses anywhere from a mile upward.

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 10:53pm

Colts and fillies.

JimDeChamp · 24-10-2011 10:58pm

Montjeu gives good 2yr olds over a mile and 3yr olds and up from a mile and 2 all the way up to 2 and a half mile... Theirs 90 Galileo 2yr olds in Ballydoyle and 10 montjeu 2yr olds and the best two out of the 100 are by montjeu...!

UrbanSea · 24-10-2011 11:00pm

Put it this way: If it turns out that your foal is a filly,you'd be disappointed if it's by Montjeu(odds are)

Where are you getting these numbers from?

Who are the two best? Camelot being one I take it

tryfix · 25-10-2011 12:08am

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Montjeu gives good 2yr olds over a mile and 3yr olds and up from a mile and 2 all the way up to 2 and a half mile... Theirs 90 Galileo 2yr olds in Ballydoyle and 10 montjeu 2yr olds and the best two out of the 100 are by montjeu...!

Maybe you're forgetting the best 2yo fillly at Ballydoyle.

JimDeChamp · 25-10-2011 7:37am

Some people would be disappointed but I wouldn't, two of montjeu's g1 individual winners this year were filly's...

Camelot and Wading

As for wading people didn't even see all of her this year, she wasn't fully fit on any of her runs plus she had a couple of other slight problems....

UrbanSea · 25-10-2011 11:22am

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Some people would be disappointed but I wouldn't, two of montjeu's g1 individual winners this year were filly's...

Camelot and Wading

As for wading people didn't even see all of her this year, she wasn't fully fit on any of her runs plus she had a couple of other slight problems....

Both came at Woodbine the other night.

Sarah Lynx had previously won a group 2 in France,was exposed and had best result apart from that was 5 lengths beaten in the Vermeille.

Miss Keller was the other winner,last seen in Ireland when beaten into 4th in a listed race off a mark of 100.

Galileo had Together,Misty for Me,the South African filly and Galikova as group 1 winners this year-the same number that Montjeu has had since he became a stallion,and Montjeu is yet to have a group 1 winning filly in a European race.

Camelot is a nice colt no doubt,but I don't believe Wading's success is down to her sire.

Look at the breeding on her dam's side. Her dam is by Urban Sea. Three of Urban Sea's sons are group 1 winners and the three of them stand at stud.
Dam is also a half sister to a grade 1 winning filly in America and half sister to the dam of Wonder of Wonders. There isn't a better bred family in racing.
Also very closely related to Born to Sea,who is Invincible Spirit x Urban Sea,Wading's dam is Green Desert x Urban Sea (Green Desert being the sire of Invincible Spirit)

But saying Camelot and Wading are the two best in the yard is extremely debatable.

Maybe and Power have shown a lot already and have both got a group 1 to their name,as well as consistent runs. Not to mention some unexposed horses,such as Was who looked a class act on debut.
I also really like Astrology for next year when he steps up in distance

JimDeChamp · 25-10-2011 12:42pm

Trust me thier the two best in Ballydoyle...! Maybe and power in my opinion have to many miles on the clock, astrology will make a savage jumper, he's a giant...! Right wadings pedigree is extremely good and to be honest urban sea could of went to a shetland pony stallion and prob would of still produced a champion... Any body know what happens to the urban sea mare that Coolmore sold to France...?

UrbanSea · 25-10-2011 1:11pm

When was this mare foaled?

JimDeChamp · 25-10-2011 1:29pm

Her name is melikah she was by lammtarra...

UrbanSea · 25-10-2011 1:47pm

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/horse_home.sd?horse_id=522673#topHorseTabs=horse_pedigree&bottomHorseTabs=horse_form

tryfix · 28-10-2011 4:00pm

If So You Think puts in a good performance in the Breeders Cup Classic, will it be off to stud in the US for him instead of racing on for another year and standing in Tipperary. Do US based Stallions shuttle to Australia ?

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 4:59pm

Indeed they do Tryfix

tryfix · 28-10-2011 5:42pm

UrbanSea wrote: »

Indeed they do Tryfix

Then I think that would be the plan if he can put up a serious performance in the Classic. His size and his wind operation would be much easier to sell in the US where they are not so fussy about such things. He's a bit of a monster and the Americans would appreciate his consistency, whereas he gets knocked over here for not being Pegasus.

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 5:53pm

Would I be correct in saying he'd be the first son of High Chaparral at stud

tryfix · 28-10-2011 6:30pm

UrbanSea wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying he'd be the first son of High Chaparral at stud

Tried to search for his sons at stud there's no sign of any. He's quite the Legend in Aus, so it's surprising they haven't sent any to stud yet. They're hardy horses, he seems to have a lot of older horse who keep improving with age.

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 6:36pm

I remember I think last season reading that he had the 1 2 3 in the Ozzie Derby. Stud fee went to 99,000 dollars over there,think he stands at 25k here

tryfix · 28-10-2011 6:47pm

If you had a mare to send to High Chaparral or So You Think, which would you pick? I'd take High Chaparral over So You Think any day, he's serious value compared to what they'd charge for the unproven So You think if he wins the Classic. He was a better racehorse as well.

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 6:54pm

I'd be the same. I don't know if I'd send one to High Chaparal,it would depend on the mare.

Just having a look here. One I'd definitely send a nice mare to would be Alfred Nobel at 5k.

Didn't realise he was so close to New Approach

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 6:55pm

Well not so close but there's some great lineage in him

tryfix · 28-10-2011 7:20pm

Close enough, a nice son of Danehill Dancer he should do fine , he'd be a great draw at a smaller stud. I'm a bit of a fan of Big Bad Bob, I would love to see what he could do with some high quality mares.

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 9:02pm

So am I. What a season he has had

UrbanSea · 28-10-2011 9:04pm

I quite like Amadeus Wolf as a stallion too. Irish National stud isn't have bad,much better than the joke of an English one

JimDeChamp · 29-10-2011 8:24pm

The chances of him being retired to stand in America are slim and none, they already have 2 to new stallions for next year in Ashford plus theirs 2 also for Ireland and other horses take preference to stand in tipp over him... Also that's the first time I've heard of so you think having a wind op...!

JimDeChamp · 29-10-2011 8:29pm

Also Alfred is overpriced at 5k he's not a looker...!

tryfix · 29-10-2011 8:42pm

JimDeChamp wrote: »

The chances of him being retired to stand in America are slim and none, they already have 2 to new stallions for next year in Ashford plus theirs 2 also for Ireland and other horses take preference to stand in tipp over him... Also that's the first time I've heard of so you think having a wind op...!

Giants Causeway finished second in the Breeders Cup Classic, stands in the US.

Henry The Navigator finished second in the Breeders Cup Classic, stands in the US.

If So You Think finishes second or wins the Breeders Cup Classic, why wouldn't they stand him in the US ?

So You Think had some kind of wind-operation and his detractors have been saying it would count against him as a stallion prospect.

http://forum.thoroughbredvillage.com.au/what-operation-did-so-you-think-have_topic32703.html

JimDeChamp · 30-10-2011 10:23am

First off both the giant and Henry were by American sires, so it was always on the cards that they would be American sires...!
Secondly Ashford already have, uncle mo and cape blanco to stand next year so the chances of 3 new stallions standing in Ashford are slim and none...
Third thing is so you think hasn't got the American pedigree that Henry or the giant have, so its extremely hard to market him to the american market and with high chap going down the national hunt stallion road personally I can see so you think going the same way.. Plus he has that ungenuine look about him in his races too...!

UrbanSea · 30-10-2011 11:21am

Edit:Wrong thread

UrbanSea · 30-10-2011 11:24am

JimDeChamp wrote: »

First off both the giant and Henry were by American sires, so it was always on the cards that they would be American sires...!
Secondly Ashford already have, uncle mo and cape blanco to stand next year so the chances of 3 new stallions standing in Ashford are slim and none...
Third thing is so you think hasn't got the American pedigree that Henry or the giant have, so its extremely hard to market him to the american market and with high chap going down the national hunt stallion road personally I can see so you think going the same way.. Plus he has that ungenuine look about him in his races too...!

I wouldn't necessarily think High Chap is going down the NH route. If he started covering NH mares here he'd totally depreciate in Oz,not gonna let that happen for a 100k stallion. He wouldn't be covering any NH mares either at 25 grand

UrbanSea · 30-10-2011 11:26am

JimDeChamp wrote: »

Also Alfred is overpriced at 5k he's not a looker...!

Overpriced at 5k?

How many worse looking stallions are there with a worse pedigree that are standing for more at Darley or anywhere?
He's from a lovely line at 5k he'll get some nice 2 year olds

tryfix · 30-10-2011 12:15pm

JimDeChamp wrote: »

First off both the giant and Henry were by American sires, so it was always on the cards that they would be American sires...!
Secondly Ashford already have, uncle mo and cape blanco to stand next year so the chances of 3 new stallions standing in Ashford are slim and none...
Third thing is so you think hasn't got the American pedigree that Henry or the giant have, so its extremely hard to market him to the american market and with high chap going down the national hunt stallion road personally I can see so you think going the same way.. Plus he has that ungenuine look about him in his races too...!

Fair enough points about his not having an American pedigree and Coolmore USA not having room for him this year, O'Brien did say he would staying in training next year. It's possible that even if he won the Classic he would take in the big early season 2012 flat races and still head down to AUS to cover his first season. That would leave him free to take up the option of either Coolmore USA or Ireland the following Northern Hemishere breeding season.

You're taking the pee when you suggest High Chaparral is heading down the NH route, his stock has never been higher and he's an absolute legend in Aus. As for So You Think not looking genuine in his races, he has never looked ungenuine in his races, always put's in his best effort and is ultra-consistent. He may not be the superhorse the Australians think he is but he's as tough and genuine as they come. A very high profile stud career awaits him in AUS where he will any have amount of their best mares queing up for his services. He,s not such a good fit in Coolmore Ireland and if he was relying on the Irish stud alone he could very well slip down the ranks to NH status if he doesn't deliver the goods. The AUS connection will see him alright .

JimDeChamp · 01-11-2011 1:52pm

Finally so you think is running in blinkers, and people thought he was genuine...!

UrbanSea · 06-11-2011 12:59pm

Just having a look at Mozart.
What a pity he died at 4. He did incredibly well with just one crop.

tryfix · 06-11-2011 8:46pm

Twirl a full sister to Misty For Me, won her maiden today by 6 1/2 lengths at Leopardstown. One to keep in mind for next year.

Secretariat · 06-11-2011 9:10pm

It has been confirmed that Goldikova is going to Galileo.

tryfix · 06-11-2011 9:13pm

A match made in Heaven.:)

tryfix · 12-11-2011 12:31am

Coolmore Stud fees 2012

Alfred Nobel €4,000 (down €1,000)

Aussie Rules €5,000 (down €1,000)

Canford Cliffs €17,500 (new)

Danehill Dancer €60,000 (down €15,000)

Duke Of Marmalade €20,000 (down €5,000)

Dylan Thomas €12,500 (down €5,000)

Excellent Art €10,000 (no change)

Fastnet Rock Private (from €30,000)

Footstepsinthesand €10,000 (no change)

Galileo Private (no change)

High Chaparral €25,000 (no change)

Holy Roman Emperor €12,500 (up €2,500)

Hurricane Run €12,500 (down €2,500)

Mastercarftsman €15,000 (€2,500)

Montjeu Private (from €75,000)

Peintre Celebre €12,500 (down €2,500)

Pour Moi €20,000 (new)

Rip Van Winkle €17,500 (€2,500)

Rock Of Gibraltar €17,500 (no change)

Starspangledbanner €10,000 (down €5,000)

Strategic Prince €6,000 (up €2,000)

Thewayyouare €5,000 (down €1,000)

Yeats €9,000 (no change)

Zoffany €7,500 (new)

Dalham Hall Stud

Dubawi £75,000 (up £20,000)

Exceed And Excel £22,500 (up £10,500)

New Approach £22,500 (no change)

Poet's Voice £12,000 (new)

Authorized £10,000 (down £5,000)

Halling £10,000 (no change)

Shirocco £7,000 (down £3,000)

Kheleyf £4,000 (no change)

Kildangan Stud

Shamardal €50,000 (no change)

Cape Cross €35,000 (no change)

Teofilo €25,000 (up €10,000)

Raven's Pass €22,500 (no change)

Iffraaj €10,000 (down €5,000)

Manduro €10,000 (down €5,000)

Vale Of York €5,000 (no change)

Echo Of LIght €3,000 (no change)

Haras du Logis

King's Best €12,000 (down €3,000)

Slickly €7,000 (no change)

Refuse To Bend €5,000 (from £4,500)

Alexandros €4,000 (no change)

Country Reel €4,000 (no change)

Creachadoir €3,000 (no change)

The Royal Studs, Norfolk

Royal Applause £9,000 (no change)

Rathbarry Stud fees 2012

Acclamation €35,000

Lilbourne Lad €7,500

Moss Vale €4,000

Tagula €4,000

Dubai Destination €2,500

Presenting €12,000

Robin Des Champs €5,000

Juddmonte Farms Stud fees 2012

Dansili £75,000 was £65,000

Champs Elysees £7,500 was £10,000

Oasis Dream £85,000

Zamindar £10,000 was £12,000

Beat Hollow £5,000

Observatory £5,000

Three Valleys £5,000

Rail Link £6,000 was £7,000

Cheveley Park Stud fees

Dutch Art £12,000 was £5,000

Medicean £8,000 was £12,000

Pivotal £45,000 was £55,000

Kyllachy £10,000 was £8,000

Virtual £4,000

Is Dubawi a £75,000 Stallion when you consider Montjeu was €75,000 last year and Pivotal is £45,000 while Shamardal is £50,000. Dansili at £75,000 is surely a much better Stallion than Dubawi.

Pour Moi at €20,000 is set at a nice price that should give him a chance to prove himself..

UrbanSea · 12-11-2011 12:34am

Thanks for that tryfix,I was looking at Coolmore's site the last few days and saw they had the new stallions listed,but no prices.

Didn't realise Zoffany was standing next year.

What fee could Fastnet Rock have gone to? Am I correct in thinking he had an excellent year down south?

tryfix · 12-11-2011 1:01am

UrbanSea wrote: »

Thanks for that tryfix,I was looking at Coolmore's site the last few days and saw they had the new stallions listed,but no prices.

Didn't realise Zoffany was standing next year.

What fee could Fastnet Rock have gone to? Am I correct in thinking he had an excellent year down south?

Fastnet Rock was standing at €30,000 this year according to the racing post, a private fee would indicate a fee of €75,000 plus. He might be worth that in Australia but he doesn't have the European track record to justify that kind of a fee. He has had 7 individual Gp1 winners so far in his stud career, at 10years old I don't know how many crops he's had on the track at a guess I'd say this years 2yo crop would be his fourth crop, Australian success doesn't always translate into European success. At a private fee he'd want to be nearly as good as his sire Danehill.

Zoffany is a nice type and I think he has what it takes to be a successful sire. I'd rather take a chance on him at €7,500 than Mastercraftsman at €15,000.

UrbanSea · 12-11-2011 1:06am

As would I.
Not surprised to see Dylan Thomas down. I really did not like his 2 year olds this year.

I think you'd need to be barking mad to go to Canford Cliffs at 17.5k. I'd rather Rip at the same money,or Holy Roman for less. Danehill Dancer represents value there.

I really can't see who would want to pay 65k sterling for Dubawi. That is absolutely ludacris. I'd have Dansili above him any day of the week.

King's Best at 12k isn't bad either

Stallions

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