Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

coillsaille · 27-02-2020 10:41pm

It's an interesting one. From a purely academic point of view (with the current directive) option C would seem the obvious one to go for in my opinion, if one had to chose. 40 mins of the SLAR in your own time then 80 mins as a group and as many have said on here before a lot of SLARS aren't taking anywhere close to 80 mins.

MacGyver007 · 27-02-2020 11:03pm

ASTI press release on the circular:

https://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/department-circular-at-variance-with-agreed-arrangements/

doc_17 · 27-02-2020 11:46pm

Millem wrote: »

Yes 2 hours bang on. I have an sphe one coming soon....6 teachers involved so presume it will take 2 hours.

An SPHE SLAR? Did I miss something? I don’t teach SPHE but how in under a god is there a CBA in that?

acequion · 27-02-2020 11:52pm

MacGyver007 wrote: »

ASTI press release on the circular:

https://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/department-circular-at-variance-with-agreed-arrangements/

Delighted with that response by ASTI!

acequion · 28-02-2020 12:00am

coillsaille wrote: »

It's an interesting one. From a purely academic point of view (with the current directive) option C would seem the obvious one to go for in my opinion, if one had to chose. 40 mins of the SLAR in your own time then 80 mins as a group and as many have said on here before a lot of SLARS aren't taking anywhere close to 80 mins.

Oh god no!! Not in English! The very thoughts of having to read through all those essays and pieces, maybe on a day when I have 27 LC Hamlet essays of 5-7 pages to correct and the latter is my priority. No way! I could see myself digging my heels in there and refusing to do the prep! What would happen if we all refused?

Am delighted to see ASTI rejecting it out of hand, though it remains to be seen how it will play out. But I think we should insist on sticking to the original agreement, where the meetings start in school time, insisting that our classes be covered and using our bundled professional time to cover the spill over into after school hours. Just how much more of their contempt are we expected to lie down under!!

Millem · 28-02-2020 5:47am

doc_17 wrote: »

An SPHE SLAR? Did I miss something? I don t teach now but how in under a god is there a CBA in that?

Yes there is a CBA....for a subject that I teach for one 40 minute period!
Another joke in it’s self!

political analyst · 28-02-2020 4:08pm

Wasn't it because of SLAR meetings being displace from the Croke Park hours that led to a Leaving Cert English teacher choosing the wrong work of literature for students? Special classes took place for the students affected to help them make up for what they missed shortly before the exam. The teacher, who was abroad after the term finished before the Leaving Cert, was apologetic about it.

To be honest, I don't see anything stressful to teachers for them to mention what works of literature they've chosen for their students while having tea and scones in the staff room during the tea-break.

Benicetomonty · 28-02-2020 4:19pm

political analyst wrote: »

Wasn't it because of SLAR meetings being displace from the Croke Park hours that led to a Leaving Cert English teacher choosing the wrong work of literature for students? Special classes took place for the students affected to help them make up for what they missed shortly before the exam. The teacher, who was abroad after the term finished before the Leaving Cert, was apologetic about it.

To be honest, I don't see anything stressful to teachers for them to mention what works of literature they've chosen for their students while having tea and scones in the staff room during the tea-break.

Had nothing to do with SLARs or CP hours. Just pilot error on the teacher's part. And it was inexcusable. Very least a class can expect is for their teacher to know what texts they have to study. But anyway, different issue.

Regardless of what you think goes on in SLARs, an agreement is an agreement. They are supposed to happen inside school hours. If you read the relevant part of the document and are functionally literate, you will see what was signed up to by all parties. Govt is attempting to renege. Simple as that.

Treppen · 28-02-2020 5:53pm

Consuelano wrote: »

There are two things I see could happen here.

1. We allow SLARs to take place outside of school hours. I've done a few at this stage. They do not necessitate two hours (much less in fairness) and there's a degree of autonomy with them. This inside/outside tuition time was never a major issue in my humble opinion.

2. We follow the union's directive (and in fairness what was originally the department's) and have SLARs inside of the school day. The most likely result of this (having read the circular) is that the department pulls the 22 hours professional time. Our only move then is to pull all cooperation with JC planning, CBAs, SLARS, etc. The result of all of this is that we've got a fight on our hands. A real, proper fight.

The problem with the second option is that it's not the fight we should be having with the department. There are many things we should be pushing back against - lesser paid teachers to name but one.

I understand why this has become an issue, and for many it's the final nail in the coffin. However, I'd much rather that extra 22 hours per year in exchange for a couple of meetings of two to four hours (which don't actually take that long).

We're already in initiative overload and are in the thick of schools becoming more and more corporate. We've got the new LC coming down the line (sooner than we'd like to think) while we're still getting to grips with the new JC. And on top of all this we've got unequal pay scales. I think the department would only LOVE for us to become entangled in a massive row over this issue - it would be the perfect distraction for the rest of it.

To allow this issue to escalate would be a strategical error on the union's part - it's the perfect red herring for the department.

I think you've got the nail on the head. It serves the department agenda to distract from lpts and further isolate the unions. It's a pity all unions couldn't just stick to the agreed directive.

The department / Irish times are doing a bit of history revisionism by saying the ASTI are breaking the directive, when in fact they are sticking to it.

History Queen · 28-02-2020 6:19pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Had nothing to do with SLARs or CP hours. Just pilot error on the teacher's part. And it was inexcusable. Very least a class can expect is for their teacher to know what texts they have to study. But anyway, different issue.

Regardless of what you think goes on in SLARs, an agreement is an agreement. They are supposed to happen inside school hours. If you read the relevant part of the document and are functionally literate, you will see what was signed up to by all parties. Govt is attempting to renege. Simple as that.

Can you link to the original document please? I can't seem to find itandwanted to read the wording for myself

Icsics · 28-02-2020 6:27pm

Millem wrote: »

Yes there is a CBA....for a subject that I teach for one 40 minute period!
Another joke in it’s self!

I think there’s a project (SLAR) if it’s run as a short course.
The 400 hrs for Wellbeing are going to be another huge drain on the timetable, subjects will lose out to wishy washy, made up ‘wellbeing’
We just had a ‘well-being week’, now there’s serious erosion of tuition time!

doc_17 · 28-02-2020 6:53pm

Icsics wrote: »

I think there’s a project (SLAR) if it’s run as a short course.
The 400 hrs for Wellbeing are going to be another huge drain on the timetable, subjects will lose out to wishy washy, made up ‘wellbeing’
We just had a ‘well-being week’, now there’s serious erosion of tuition time!

I’m not participating in sh*t like that. And speaking of tuition time....We have a scenario in our school where teachers take students out of class for a full day to fill in LC Geog/Hist reports, the CA part of the course. S&S is used and I can be missing over half my class. Does that crap happen in other schools?

political analyst · 28-02-2020 7:11pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Had nothing to do with SLARs or CP hours. Just pilot error on the teacher's part. And it was inexcusable. Very least a class can expect is for their teacher to know what texts they have to study. But anyway, different issue.

Regardless of what you think goes on in SLARs, an agreement is an agreement. They are supposed to happen inside school hours. If you read the relevant part of the document and are functionally literate, you will see what was signed up to by all parties. Govt is attempting to renege. Simple as that.

Point taken.

For what it's worth, the teacher's mother and brother had died within 3 weeks of each other a few months before the exams.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-english-error-4232595-Sep2018/

political analyst · 28-02-2020 7:13pm

It would be regrettable if students have their teacher available for a class of the subject that he or she teaches them. If students have a particular teacher for that subject a certain number of classes every week, then the teacher should be, as a rule, teaching them for that number of classes.

Treppen · 28-02-2020 7:14pm

Millem wrote: »

I don’t really understand the options...
A do it on the school’s half day
B do it in your own free time
C basic also it in your own free time
D lose the 40 mins professional time and do it in school hours.

Our home ec slar took 2 hours.

Or E timetable it into mocks / summer exams.

Benicetomonty · 28-02-2020 7:23pm

political analyst wrote: »

Point taken.

For what it's worth, the teacher's mother and brother had died within 3 weeks of each other a few months before the exams.

https://www.thejournal.ie/leaving-cert-english-error-4232595-Sep2018/

We receive the circular with course texts laid out around 8 months before the beginning of 5th year, well in advance of the exams. Dont mean to come across as cruel but neglience like this undermines the profession, as it would any profession.

km79 · 28-02-2020 7:29pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

We receive the circular with course texts laid out around 8 months before the beginning of 5th year, well in advance of the exams. Dont mean to come across as cruel but neglience like this undermines the profession, as it would any profession.

Another counter argument is that while our profession is very big on student well being , Teacher Wellbeing is not a priority for any of the policy makers or key stakeholders
The wellbeing guidelines for the new JC is 108 pages long
There is one page on Teacher Wellbeing. I’ll summarise what it’s says . Teacher wellbeing is important as it’s affects student wellbeing

But this is a different argument . As is the use of the term Wellbeing as a huge Umbrella term anyway

Benicetomonty · 28-02-2020 8:48pm

History Queen wrote: »

Can you link to the original document please? I can't seem to find itandwanted to read the wording for myself

https://ncca.ie/media/3249/framework-for-junior-cycle-2015-en.pdf

Relevent document. Pg 34 has the reference as to how professional hours may be used in relation to SLARs.

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/cl0015_2017.pdf

Relevent circular that refers to meetings as SLARs (pg28)

The 40 minute professional time period provided within timetable is available to teachers on the basis that they will use this time flexibly including bundling time periods and carrying forward time to facilitate professional collaboration. Teachers may also use the time periods for individual planning, feedback or reporting activities relating to Junior Cycle. In particular, time periods will need to be bundled to facilitate SLAR meetings. Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Limited is not all. Some of the duration is not all. Any attempt therefore to hold the entirety of the meeting outside of hours, as is essentially proposed in options A B or C, is contrary to the agreement.

A further clarification relating to SLAR meetings was provided by the department of Education and Skills to ASTI in December 2015. It stated as follows:

“The Department confirms that any attempt to impose the organisation of SLAR meetings entirely outside school hours would contravene the agreement. The intention is that SLAR meetings will be scheduled to commence within the timetable, involving the inclusion of a normal timetabled period. However, given the required duration [approximately two hours per meeting], flexibility to run beyond the normal school day for some of the duration of the meeting is required. ”

km79 · 28-02-2020 9:09pm

TUI bent over on this
So it’s game over on this one now that the govt have gown after it

History Queen · 28-02-2020 9:20pm

Benicetomonty wrote: »

https://ncca.ie/media/3249/framework-for-junior-cycle-2015-en.pdf

Relevent document. Pg 34 has the reference as to how professional hours may be used in relation to SLARs.

https://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/cl0015_2017.pdf

Relevent circular that refers to meetings as SLARs (pg28)

The 40 minute professional time period provided within timetable is available to teachers on the basis that they will use this time flexibly including bundling time periods and carrying forward time to facilitate professional collaboration. Teachers may also use the time periods for individual planning, feedback or reporting activities relating to Junior Cycle. In particular, time periods will need to be bundled to facilitate SLAR meetings. Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Limited is not all. Some of the duration is not all. Any attempt therefore to hold the entirety of the meeting outside of hours, as is essentially proposed in options A B or C, is contrary to the agreement.

A further clarification relating to SLAR meetings was provided by the department of Education and Skills to ASTI in December 2015. It stated as follows:

“The Department confirms that any attempt to impose the organisation of SLAR meetings entirely outside school hours would contravene the agreement. The intention is that SLAR meetings will be scheduled to commence within the timetable, involving the inclusion of a normal timetabled period. However, given the required duration [approximately two hours per meeting], flexibility to run beyond the normal school day for some of the duration of the meeting is required. ”

Thanks for that. Just had a read and the wording does seem to indicate that meeings should/could take place in school hours. I can absolutely see where ASTI are coming from. Similarly I can see why the department dontwant to pay "on the double " for this in that they have indeed granted us all the 22 hours professional time.

Honestly cannot see how this will come to a peaceful resolution.

Benicetomonty · 29-02-2020 1:03am

km79 wrote: »

TUI bent over on this
So it’s game over on this one now that the govt have gown after it

Not necessarily. If dept stick to their guns and start making people redundant or redeploying staff who are over-quota, it wont be just ASTI members that will be affected. Itl be last in, first out, and that could be anybody from any union. Be interesting to see how the TUI respond in that scenario.

deiseindublin · 29-02-2020 1:08am

TUI signed up to the same agreement as ASTI all those years ago so shouldn't be facilitating SLARs that are entirely outside school timetabled hours.

They never did intend to enforce the circular though. On the very first mention on SLARs in TUI News they gave an example of a school with a half day on a Wednesday timetabling it there.

Millem · 29-02-2020 6:58am

Icsics wrote: »

I think there’s a project (SLAR) if it’s run as a short course.
The 400 hrs for Wellbeing are going to be another huge drain on the timetable, subjects will lose out to wishy washy, made up ‘wellbeing’
We just had a ‘well-being week’, now there’s serious erosion of tuition time!

Does every school have Sphe as a short course? Up to this year I hadn’t thought it in maybe 8+ years so out of the loop!

Icsics · 29-02-2020 10:46am

Millem wrote: »

Does every school have Sphe as a short course? Up to this year I hadn’t thought it in maybe 8+ years so out of the loop!

No, it’s up to the school. I have it once a week, part of well-being hrs, not a short course so no CBA

Millem · 29-02-2020 1:12pm

Icsics wrote: »

No, it’s up to the school. I have it once a week, part of well-being hrs, not a short course so no CBA

Lucky you! So I wonder does your school have to do a CBA elsewhere?

doc_17 · 29-02-2020 1:55pm

Icsics wrote: »

No, it’s up to the school. I have it once a week, part of well-being hrs, not a short course so no CBA

Yeah, that’s what I thought. It’s not a CBA subject in all schools. That school were mad to do that.

SligoBrewer · 29-02-2020 3:44pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

TUI signed up to the same agreement as ASTI all those years ago so shouldn't be facilitating SLARs that are entirely outside school timetabled hours.

They never did intend to enforce the circular though. On the very first mention on SLARs in TUI News they gave an example of a school with a half day on a Wednesday timetabling it there.

lol

Random sample · 29-02-2020 4:00pm

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more uproar about this circular. Asti response is decent, but tui haven’t responded at all. Does that mean they’re fine with it?

acequion · 29-02-2020 4:51pm

Random sample wrote: »

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more uproar about this circular. Asti response is decent, but tui haven’t responded at all. Does that mean they’re fine with it?

Probably more of the apathy that has dogged us for the past decade and the "ah shur what can we do" resigned mentality.:rolleyes:

I've never accepted or gotten over the insult I feel at the contempt with which we've been treated this past decade. Benicetomonty has quoted the main parts of the 2015 agreement in his/her posts above, so it is plain for all to see that the Govt are shifting the goalposts yet again and changing a signed agreement to suit their agenda yet again, with nothing but contempt for the other signatories.

There is loads of wriggle room here with a bit of good will. The Govt forced teachers into providing more S&S so some of this could be used. CP hours could also be used. It really should be simple to find a solution without turning it into a major issue.

In any case, ASTI voted overwhelmingly to have SLARS within school time so accepting any of those 4 options without renegotiating them in line with the original agreement, would be huge capitulation. I've no idea what will happen next but I certainly hope it's not a massive capitulation. And no point worrying what TUI will do.

Treppen · 29-02-2020 6:09pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

TUI signed up to the same agreement as ASTI all those years ago so shouldn't be facilitating SLARs that are entirely outside school timetabled hours.

They never did intend to enforce the circular though. On the very first mention on SLARs in TUI News they gave an example of a school with a half day on a Wednesday timetabling it there.

Actually the agreement explicitly states "during tuition time" and NOT 'during school time'.

This is because the ASTI take the view that school time is when the students are present whereas TUI take the view that school time is any time management decree that teachers be present.

Hence why ASTI ensured the term "tuition time" appears in the agreement. But TUI didn't follow the agreement. This has given the dept. carte blanche to tear up the agreement.

joebloggs32 · 29-02-2020 10:16pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

TUI signed up to the same agreement as ASTI all those years ago so shouldn't be facilitating SLARs that are entirely outside school timetabled hours.

They never did intend to enforce the circular though. On the very first mention on SLARs in TUI News they gave an example of a school with a half day on a Wednesday timetabling it there.

Before we signed up to the agreement the situation regarding SLARS was outlined by an official from head office at a branch meeting. We were told if we agreed to the proposals then SLARS would no longer happen during class time. The professional time would be used towards the SLARS instead of the substitution model which had originally been used for JCT English. Not everyone goes to Branch meetings, but anyone at my branch meeting clearly understood what would happen.

joebloggs32 · 29-02-2020 10:21pm

Random sample wrote: »

I’m surprised there hasn’t been more uproar about this circular. Asti response is decent, but tui haven’t responded at all. Does that mean they’re fine with it?

Why would the TUI respond? Nothing is changing for TUI members. This is not an issue created by the TUI.

This is very much a conundrum for the ASTI who's members can really only take option D without breaking a directive.

deiseindublin · 01-03-2020 1:50pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Before we signed up to the agreement the situation regarding SLARS was outlined by an official from head office at a branch meeting. We were told if we agreed to the proposals then SLARS would no longer happen during class time. The professional time would be used towards the SLARS instead of the substitution model which had originally been used for JCT English. Not everyone goes to Branch meetings, but anyone at my branch meeting clearly understood what would happen.

Well, I asked a branch secretary and was told that lots of examples for how it would work were in TUI news. When we pointed out that our school didn't have a timetabled half day there was shoulder shrugging.

The expression "Piss or get off the pot" comes to mind for so many of these union issues.

deiseindublin · 01-03-2020 1:53pm

Will be hard to dual schools though, whatever option is taken, it will have to be school wide.

Treppen · 01-03-2020 6:24pm

joebloggs32 wrote: »

Why would the TUI respond? Nothing is changing for TUI members. This is not an issue created by the TUI.

This is very much a conundrum for the ASTI who's members can really only take option D without breaking a directive.

I would argue This issue was created by the TUI.

First off, I'm not talking about ordinary TUI members, they had zero backup from TUI head office when principals started to insist meetings be done exclusively outside tuition time.

When this became an issue of some requests to do it after school, all ASTI schools were issued with a directive restating what they had agreed upon with the department. If the TUI had done the same there would have been a modicom of solidarity between unions... For once.

Divide and conquer etc. etc. Rinse and repeat.

I've no doubt this will yet again see ASTI members being balloted, and in true to form fashion they will insist on the department sticking to the agreement. But in true to form fashion the department will issue cuts to ASTI members.

Treppen · 01-03-2020 6:31pm

deiseindublin wrote: »

Will be hard to dual schools though, whatever option is taken, it will have to be school wide.

There is time within school tuition time. We organised it no problem.
Mocks, summer exams, 2nd and 3rd year events, sports day. For minority subjects it was left up to them to organise which can be done. I'll admit there will be lunch time meetings. But anything to avoid being kept back after school.

We have a regular Union meeting in school, the directive was restated and everyone agreed and just accepted that we'll find a way.

Benicetomonty · 01-03-2020 6:49pm

Treppen wrote: »

I would argue This issue was created by the TUI.

First off, I'm not talking about ordinary TUI members, they had zero backup from TUI head office when principals started to insist meetings be done exclusively outside tuition time.

When this became an issue of some requests to do it after school, all ASTI schools were issued with a directive restating what they had agreed upon with the department. If the TUI had done the same there would have been a modicom of solidarity between unions... For once.

Divide and conquer etc. etc. Rinse and repeat.

I've no doubt this will yet again see ASTI members being balloted, and in true to form fashion they will insist on the department sticking to the agreement. But in true to form fashion the department will issue cuts to ASTI members.

This ultimatum is different to the last one issued by the dept for a number of reasons.
Firstly there can be no talk of an agreement being 'repudiated'. The DES is reneging on an agreement. Isnt it interesting how despite reporting on the issue, the Irish media has stopped short of actually referencing the relevent wording within the agreement for fear of what it would do to their pro DES agenda? Just a ridiculous amount of bias, one that you would think will be easy to reference for an ASTI official if it comes down to a battle on the airwaves.

Secondly, there is no govt. What minister is going to sign off on any punitive measures this time? Maybe Im being naive in this assertion but even if the DES can force such measures through in the absence of an education minister, the threats that have been made will not exclusively affect ASTI members like they did last time. TUI and non union teachers will also be subject to compulsory redundancies/redeployment. FEMPI might be able to withold CIDs but I would doubt it gives a govt the power to fire permanent ASTI staff over non permanent TUI staff on this basis .

And even if they can, then what? They follow through? An act of war during what will be the run up to the state exams? After failing to deploy FEMPI on either the TUI or the INMO in the last year? Dont see it and certainly cant see the ASTI lying down this time.

deiseindublin · 01-03-2020 7:51pm

I agree, shocking that it's DES that's reneging and nobody has bothered to print it in black and whilte.

coillsaille · 04-03-2020 9:20am

The JMB have been quick to run to the support of the DES in the SLAR issue.
They have issued a letter to principals and BOMs recommending that if consensus cannot be reached among staff (which obviously can't be reached given the directive) then the BOM should decide on one of the options for next year's SLARS, but not to pick option D.

Icsics · 04-03-2020 10:22am

coillsaille wrote: »

The JMB have been quick to run to the support of the DES in the SLAR issue.
They have issued a letter to principals and BOMs recommending that if consensus cannot be reached among staff (which obviously can't be reached given the directive) then the BOM should decide on one of the options for next year's SLARS, but not to pick option D.

Don’t suppose there’s a link to this letter?

coillsaille · 04-03-2020 12:02pm

Icsics wrote: »

Don’t suppose there’s a link to this letter?

I don't have one anyway, I was just briefly shown it.

TheValeyard · 05-03-2020 7:52pm

So what's the deal now. Staff are getting emails about the four options but surely the unions wont co-operate or staff wont even vote on any of those options.

coillsaille · 06-03-2020 12:11am

TheValeyard wrote: »

So what's the deal now. Staff are getting emails about the four options but surely the unions wont co-operate or staff wont even vote on any of those options.

The ASTI have advised members not to vote for any of the options if school management bring it up at a staff meeting.

coillsaille · 06-03-2020 12:11am

TheValeyard wrote: »

So what's the deal now. Staff are getting emails about the four options but surely the unions wont co-operate or staff wont even vote on any of those options.

The ASTI have advised members not to vote for any of the options if school management bring it up at a staff meeting.

Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

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