Upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS

History Queen

In relation to a post I saw on Voice for Teachers about the upcoming ASTI ballot on SLARS. I have a few questions.

Just to be clear I am not a member of ASTI.

Am I correct in saying that the likely reaction of the Dept is to pull the 22 hours professional time per teacher per year (40 mins a week) which has led to approx 800 jobs? What will happen to the people who got these hours/jobs? Will their work be put in jeopardy?

While I hate having to do the SLARS after school, is that not one of the things the reduction in timetable was designed to cover? I cannot see how schools can cover 4/5 teachers for 2 hours at a time for SLARS in every subject. As well as the practicicality of it, it is a lot of lost tuition hours too surely?

As well as this if we are somehow allowed to do them within school hours will we be expected to account for the two hours more rigorously (ie more paper work/paper trail) to account for/justify the increased cost to the Dept of Ed?

Perhaps someone on the ASTI might be more clued in than I am, but from my perspective it seems like a battle that can't be won?

SligoBrewer

This is a ballot on a directive to members to go along with what the Department themselves are saying is the agreed case.
The only people that will be disgruntled are the management bodies.

The ASTI wouldn't have to do this heavy lifting on SLARs if the TUI didn't decide to undermine the agreement with the Government.

History Queen

SligoBrewer wrote: »

This is a ballot on a directive to members to go along with what the *Department themselves are saying is the agreed case*.
The only people that will be disgruntled are the management bodies.

The ASTI wouldn't have to do this heavy lifting on SLARs if the TUI didn't decide to undermine the agreement with the Government.

Was the 2015 agreement re Slars not withdrawn by the department?I thought it was, but could stand to be corrected. If the department aren't disputing it why do the ASTI have to ballot members?

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious

Inspector Coptoor

If you’re a teacher with two JC subjects, the most amount of SLARs you can have is 4.

4 x 2 hours is 8 hours, not 22 hours.

It would be preposterous for the dept to pull the 22 hours for SLARs happening within school time.

It says in the Dept’s own circular that SLARs should start in school time with a limited number running outside of school time.

This ballot is to prevent some HMs in some schools, with assistance from the JMB I might add, abusing the slight ambiguity in the wording of the circular.

SLARs don’t come under professional time in my mind.

We have enough “extra” hours outside of contact time.

This is yet another thin edge of the wedge.
If is slips in now, that sLARs happen outside of school time, that status quo will remain when the inevitable Senior Cycle review with its SLARs come in to place.
We must vote in favor of this ballot.

km79

A lot of the previous ballots were divisive
This is a straight forward yes
I don’t even think there has been any scaremongering which tells a tale

TheValeyard

Lot of schools were forcing staff to do all of SLARS outside of school hours. Think this is to force school management to behave.

Beaulieu

Must SLARS be 2 hours in length?

History Queen

According to the NCCA the Slars are part of the Professional time allocation

https://www.ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/assessment-and-reporting/slar-meetings

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR, however, I have 22 hours timetable reducation, therefore I still have 16 hours professional time to dealwith other aspects of new junior cycle. It doesn't make sense to me that the Dept would pay for cover for me to have 6 hours of Slar while also paying me for the 22 hour timetable reducation. They'd be paying on the double if you see what I mean?

I did look, but I can't find the circular where the Dept say the Slars will be covered in school time? Can someone tell me where to find it? I do remember talk about it at the time but I thought I had heard since that they are out of school time. That's certainly how they're being run in my school. If however, we can get them covered in school time I'd definitely push to do so!

SligoBrewer

The NCCA have nothing to do with how hours are managed.

Circular 24/2016 p. 21

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting.

Circular 15/2017 p. 26

Since professional collaboration meetings can only be held when the relevant subject teachers can be present, a limited number of meetings may need to draw on teachers’ bundled time to run beyond normal school tuition hours for some of the duration of the meeting. A SLAR meeting should take place in one two-hour session

I'd also suggest you join the union that is literally fighting for your conditions to be better.

TheValeyard

History Queen wrote: »

According to the NCCA the Slars are part of the Professional time allocation

https://www.ncca.ie/en/junior-cycle/assessment-and-reporting/slar-meetings

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR, however, I have 22 hours timetable reducation, therefore I still have 16 hours professional time to dealwith other aspects of new junior cycle. It doesn't make sense to me that the Dept would pay for cover for me to have 6 hours of Slar while also paying me for the 22 hour timetable reducation. They'd be paying on the double if you see what I mean?

I did look, but I can't find the circular where the Dept say the Slars will be covered in school time? Can someone tell me where to find it? I do remember talk about it at the time but I thought I had heard since that they are out of school time. That's certainly how they're being run in my school. If however, we can get them covered in school time I'd definitely push to do so!

Those reduced timetable hours should be used to prep for new junior cycle curriculum subjects.

Icsics

SLARs are what you make of them. They are a complete waste of time. The time allowance for the 'facilitator' could be withdrawn & that would save 2 hrs. We give enough CP hours, this must be stopped in its tracks, before the mgt bodies 'embed' it!

PureClareGold

Icsics wrote: »

SLARs are what you make of them. They are a complete waste of time. The time allowance for the 'facilitator' could be withdrawn & that would save 2 hrs. We give enough CP hours, this must be stopped in its tracks, before the mgt bodies 'embed' it!

SLARs have been some of the best professional conversations I've had with my colleagues. Structured well they are invaluable. I agree with the original poster re the risk of professional time being taken from us. In my school management are very flexible with the timing of SLARs. In many cases they have happened within school time as teachers happen to be off or due to block supervision at Christmas tests we've been able to work it that we can do it during the school day. That flexibility will be taken away from me in my situation if we vote yes. However I do appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate as me.

Moody_mona

PureClareGold wrote: »

SLARs have been some of the best professional conversations I've had with my colleagues. Structured well they are invaluable. I agree with the original poster re the risk of professional time being taken from us. In my school management are very flexible with the timing of SLARs. In many cases they have happened within school time as teachers happen to be off or due to block supervision at Christmas tests we've been able to work it that we can do it during the school day. That flexibility will be taken away from me in my situation if we vote yes. However I do appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate as me.

Why would it be taken away with a yes vote?

Agree that they can be valuable conversations. I just hate the ambiguity of the circular and the putting of staff vs management. We have also been lucky to avail of exam timetables and sports day etc to keep the slars within school, but our management has made no effort to timetable each department for a class off together so it's difficult to get an in school time that suits everyone.

Moody_mona

History Queen wrote: »

I suppose the way I look at it, I have three Second Year groups this year. That's 6 hours of SLAR

Have you three different subjects? Otherwise I would have thought all second year Science for example would be discussed at the one meeting?

History Queen

Moody_mona wrote: »

Have you three different subjects? Otherwise I would have thought all second year Science for example would be discussed at the one meeting?

Sorry of course you're correct. Had a brain freeze! I have 2 slars was thinking 3 CBAs and confused myself. Apologies!

Moody_mona

History Queen wrote: »

Sorry of course you're correct. Had a brain freeze! I still have 2 slars was thinking 3 CBAs and confused myself. Apologies!

Just wanted to make sure you weren't doing an excessive amount!

History Queen

I think the increased amount of acronyms is messing with my head! Between JCT, CBA, TY, LCA, LCVP, SLARs etc. I think I'm having alphabet overload! Here prepping for a WSE and think it's time to go to bed and admit defeat!

Bobtheman

Is this what the Asti is reduced to ? Fighting over SLARS ? Meanwhile where the hell is campaign on lower paid teachers ? Where is the fight on school discipline? Where the fxxxx is a strike on any of these issues?

dg647

Bobtheman wrote: »

Is this what the Asti is reduced to ? Fighting over SLARS ? Meanwhile where the hell is campaign on lower paid teachers ? Where is the fight on school discipline? Where the fxxxx is a strike on any of these issues?

Enough of the membership don't want to fight/strike. Recently when we tried to fight a lot of members jumped ship to TUI and a significant number who stayed managed to get our Junior Cycle campaign halted.

Bobtheman

dg647 wrote: »

Enough of the membership don't want to fight/strike. Recently when we tried to fight a lot of members jumped ship to TUI and a significant number who stayed managed to get our Junior Cycle campaign halted.

And those same traitors were ejected from the TUi as a result of court action. In the end strike or assume the position and get your favorite lubricant. meaning continue to be screwed or strike
But if slars action is the height of what you can whip up - the union is a joke. The membership are a joke. I'm within ten years of retirement. I hope the cowards reap what they sow. I will be gone by the time it really gets ****

doc_17

it’s such a non issue that the ASTI are balloting on. Next thing you know the Dept will define the school day. And then we’ll all be goosed.

Icsics

doc_17 wrote: »

it’s such a non issue that the ASTI are balloting on. Next thing you know the Dept will define the school day. And then we’ll all be goosed.

I think we might be goosed anyway!

doc_17

Icsics wrote: »

I think we might be goosed anyway!

No need to make it worse though. Settle the pay dispute first.

acequion

Icsics wrote: »

I think we might be goosed anyway!

Guys,we were goosed a long time ago. And that's because not people had the balls to fight and to stick with the fight. But as the last poster said,no need to make it worse. So here's to a resounding yes!

And of course the pay issue is more important but that won't get resolved without a fight. But will members fight??

km79

acequion wrote: »

Guys,we were goosed a long time ago. And that's because not people had the balls to fight and to stick with the fight. But as the last poster said,no need to make it worse. So here's to a resounding yes!

And of course the pay issue is more important but that won't get resolved without a fight. But will members fight??

not a chance
They would just leave again
Even if it themselves others are fighting for

The appetite is gone from many like myself who stood up for their colleagues only to watch those same colleagues cross the picket line and leave the union rather than fight for their own pay and conditions
Will take a long time to forget that
I’m sure a lot of staff rooms are the same

acequion

km79 wrote: »

not a chance
They would just leave again
Even if it themselves others are fighting for

The appetite is gone from many like myself who stood up for their colleagues only to watch those same colleagues cross the picket line and leave the union rather than fight for their own pay and conditions
Will take a long time to forget that
I’m sure a lot of staff rooms are the same

My appetite has waned a lot too, but at the end of the day if you give up the fight you let the Govt win. And recent Govts have demonstrated total contempt for the teaching profession. So however betrayed we may feel by turncoat colleagues, however demoralised by constant defeats,never forget that rolling over always has and always will only make things worse for us all.

Bobtheman

I personally think part of the issue is the fragmentation of society. Social media. Ten different types of sexuality , Netflix etc etc
We see it in politics where our two main parties are lucky to command 55% of the vote
People now see themselves as individual consumers not part of a collective mass
Thus the Asti was a glue for teachers but many teachers now too busy posting a photo of their beautiful selves on Facebook etc etc

I know there is a cohort of young teachers who have stood with the Asti. They must not be disregarded. Unfortunately they are not large enough to tip the balance towards strike. There are also too many old timers who don't give a fxxx **** about them and unfortunately the flight of Asti members to tui has only made them more conservative.
However, there is a bit of hope. The government chronically underfunds education. Thus unlikely to send that many thought police inspectors out there or create paid department heads. These heads would likely be childless Dracula figures under 35 who would suck your blood on the way to God knows where!

doc_17

Here’s a scenario....we know the gov want to end the index linking of PS pension of those who have retired to the salary of the person currently doing the job. Will that be the trade off for equal pay? And I’d say younger teachers might vote for it. Post 04 were threw under the bus by many who have since retired and many would be happy to return the favour. It would be consistent with the approach of DPER.

Bobtheman

Just talked to a Tesco worker who did three weeks on strike a few years back. Three weeks. He is proud of the fact they stopped eroding his conditions.
Jesus wept - when you think of the comparisons with the Asti.

2011abc

Bobtheman wrote: »

I personally think part of the issue is the fragmentation of society. Social media. Ten different types of sexuality , Netflix etc etc
We see it in politics where our two main parties are lucky to command 55% of the vote
People now see themselves as individual consumers not part of a collective mass
Thus the Asti was a glue for teachers but many teachers now too busy posting a photo of their beautiful selves on Facebook etc etc

I know there is a cohort of young teachers who have stood with the Asti. They must not be disregarded. Unfortunately they are not large enough to tip the balance towards strike. There are also too many old timers who don't give a fxxx **** about them and unfortunately the flight of Asti members to tui has only made them more conservative.
However, there is a bit of hope. The government chronically underfunds education. Thus unlikely to send that many thought police inspectors out there or create paid department heads. These heads would likely be childless Dracula figures under 35 who would suck your blood on the way to God knows where!

I think that deserves some kind of journalism / writing award ! The last sentence may be the best thing I've read in months !!!

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Here’s a scenario....we know the gov want to end the index linking of PS pension of those who have retired to the salary of the person currently doing the job. Will that be the trade off for equal pay? And I’d say younger teachers might vote for it. Post 04 were threw under the bus by many who have since retired and many would be happy to return the favour. It would be consistent with the approach of DPER.

Nobody was thrown under any bus by their colleagues and well you know it!!

And ending the linking of pay and pensions would be just another nail in the already well nailed coffin of those currently in this profession and its retirees. Is that what you want?

We will all retire if we don't die first!! So let's all stick together for a change!!

Sir123

A very strong YES will hopefully be the result of this ballot.

I feel the appetite in general has gone in terms of strike and all that. We'll have to see if TUI strike in February, doubt they will though.

I feel the Equal Pay issue won't fully be resolved unless all 3 unions go out. It's not even just about Equal Pay. Sick leave has been cut dramatically, the job seems to have so much more pointless box ticking and ráiméis than ever before. Discipline is also getting worse, education standards are being diluted, the list goes on. Career average pension, got to go.

There's just so much wrong with the profession at the moment that we all need to stick together because in some way, we're all being effected by reform and increased workload.

acequion

And to add to Sir123's list they now want to abolish our flat rate expenses, effectively a pay cut by stealth!! I'm just gobsmacked at how apathetic people are about that as if they can afford to be paid even less!! Not to mention the impact on LPTs! My blood boils.:mad::mad:

See my thread on it and please sign the petition.

Bobtheman

PureClareGold wrote: »

SLARs have been some of the best professional conversations I've had with my colleagues. Structured well they are invaluable. I agree with the original poster re the risk of professional time being taken from us. In my school management are very flexible with the timing of SLARs. In many cases they have happened within school time as teachers happen to be off or due to block supervision at Christmas tests we've been able to work it that we can do it during the school day. That flexibility will be taken away from me in my situation if we vote yes. However I do appreciate that not everyone is as fortunate as me.

So Im assuming you have not given up extra time free time to Slars-you say happen to be off? Clarify
So if slars occur during your free periods-you are giving up free time-working for free.A managers dream

SligoBrewer

Shout out to the lads who are using a SLAR ballot as a proxy to beat the one union who fought for LPTs from day 1.

Get involved if you think the ASTI aren't doing enough, because we aren't the ones holding back progress in this issue.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Nobody was thrown under any bus by their colleagues and well you know it!!

And ending the linking of pay and pensions would be just another nail in the already well nailed coffin of those currently in this profession and its retirees. Is that what you want?

We will all retire if we don't die first!! So let's all stick together for a change!!

Post 04 were screwed royally. No full pension now until aged 68. Pre 04 get full pension when they retire, assuming they have worked the required no of years, no matter their age That was the trade off for the pay increase that time. That is undeniable. It is fact.

Post 11 were never threw under the bus by the Union. Apologies if you thought that’s you thought I meant.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

Nobody was thrown under any bus by their colleagues and well you know it!!

And ending the linking of pay and pensions would be just another nail in the already well nailed coffin of those currently in this profession and its retirees. Is that what you want?

We will all retire if we don't die first!! So let's all stick together for a change!!

I don’t want the link broken between between pay and pensions but I go to union meetings and officials say they are coming after it hard. They’ll have a plan and their plans have been better than ours for years.

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Post 04 were screwed royally. No full pension now until aged 68. Pre 04 get full pension when they retire, assuming they have worked the required no of years, no matter their age That was the trade off for the pay increase that time. That is undeniable. It is fact.

Post 11 were never threw under the bus by the Union. Apologies if you thought that’s you thought I meant.

What do you mean by the emboldened above? What pay increase? We've got no pay increases since around the bench marking, last time 2007. All we're getting now is pay restoration. So do please clarify and apologies accepted, not trying to cause any row.

Also, shocking how they're trying to break the pay and pension link. But as it's been so long since there's been any pay rises, you'd wonder does it even matter! My mother is on a teacher's pension and has been saying for years how there has been nothing and how her widow's pension has actually increased more then her teacher's pension. Now lucky her to be on two pensions but it's not nice to lose your spouse at a young age as she did.

doc_17

Pay rises were coming in through National Wage Agreements, government changed the pension arrangements for new entrants and not a bit was said or done about it. The Unions jus they it go because it didn’t affect them.

PureClareGold

Bobtheman wrote: »

So Im assuming you have not given up extra time free time to Slars-you say happen to be off? Clarify
So if slars occur during your free periods-you are giving up free time-working for free.A managers dream

But its not for free
I'm being paid for it. Our professional time is the equivalent of one full class contact week that has been taken from me without a reduction in my pay for it. That time is used for SLARs as well as other things so I'm not doing it for free

acequion

PureClareGold, you really sound like a huge Dept sympathiser, ready and willing to do anything they decide we should do.

My experience teaching in a huge school of more than 1,200 plus pupils and all the contact with other other teachers that alone entails, plus liaising with teachers all over the country in my subject or union activities, is that your stance would be very much the exception. In fact the only ones I've come across with your views are those directly working for and giving the JCT in services. Everybody else feels overwhelmed and overburdened by it, as well as saddened by declining educational standards. Us having brilliant talks with our colleagues in the SLARS about how this johnny and that johnny is getting on and whether this guy gets an in line or above, makes feck all difference to their progress, or to use the new phraseology,achieving educational outcomes. It simply doesn't.

No doubt you'll be back all guns blazing about how you love the JCT but the plain fact is that your views are very much the exception.

km79

acequion wrote: »

PureClareGold, you really sound like a huge Dept sympathiser, ready and willing to do anything they decide we should do.

My experience teaching in a huge school of more than 1,200 plus pupils and all the contact with other other teachers that alone entails, plus liaising with teachers all over the country in my subject or union activities, is that your stance would be very much the exception. In fact the only ones I've come across with your views are those directly working for and giving the JCT in services. Everybody else feels overwhelmed and overburdened by it, as well as saddened by declining educational standards. Us having brilliant talks with our colleagues in the SLARS about how this johnny and that johnny is getting on and whether this guy gets an in line or above, makes feck all difference to their progress, or to use the new phraseology,achieving educational outcomes. It simply doesn't.

No doubt you'll be back all guns blazing about how you love the JCT but the plain fact is that your views are very much an exception.

Thanks for not quoting him/her
I can only imagine it was along the lines of the Lego Movie song as per usual
“Everything is awesome everything is cool with the new JC”

Benicetomonty

PureClareGold wrote: »

But its not for free
I'm being paid for it. Our professional time is the equivalent of one full class contact week that has been taken from me without a reduction in my pay for it. That time is used for SLARs as well as other things so I'm not doing it for free

Professional time was set aside for teachers to get to grips with the new course- watch webinars, study the material, learn how to recite the learning objectives off by heart like a 5 year old might learn their maths tables..etc.
According to the agreement, a limited amount of your bundled time may be used to facilitate SLARS, but the word 'limited' is stressed. Nowhere is it stated or even implied that the entire allocation of professional time should be set aside to facilitate your quota of SLARS, and NO competent reading of the agreement can credibly arrive at this conclusion.

Id further argue that despite supposed intentions, the new jct has increased our workload significantly. In our place, we have been told that official, documented phone calls now have to be made to the parents of 3rd year students who are not 'cooperating' with the English CBA 2 for fear that the school will be blamed for the consequent effect this will have on their ATask and, by extension, their exam in June. Assigning computer rooms, facilitating students who arent in for the designated 3 wk period, trying to decide how xmas and summer exams are to be modified...and we're not even at a stage where all the subjects are even in! The whole thing is an absolute mess.

Anyway, to return to the topic, I wouldnt put it past them at all, but the dept would want to have some brazen cheek to threaten any union for simply insisting that the agreement is implemented according to what is written down in plain English. Surely, something needs to give at that point.

Benicetomonty

km79 wrote: »

Thanks for not quoting him/her
I can only imagine it was along the lines of the Lego Movie song as per usual
“Everything is awesome everything is cool with the new JC”

Apologies 😶

Treppen

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Professional time was set aside for teachers to get to grips with the new course- watch webinars, study the material, learn how to recite the learning objectives off by heart like a 5 year old might learn their maths tables..etc.
According to the agreement, a limited amount of your bundled time may be used to facilitate SLARS, but the word 'limited' is stressed. Nowhere is it stated or even implied that the entire allocation of professional time should be set aside to facilitate your quota of SLARS, and NO competent reading of the agreement can credibly arrive at this conclusion.

Id further argue that despite supposed intentions, the new jct has increased our workload significantly. In our place, we have been told that official, documented phone calls now have to be made to the parents of 3rd year students who are not 'cooperating' with the English CBA 2 for fear that the school will be blamed for the consequent effect this will have on their ATask and, by extension, their exam in June. Assigning computer rooms, facilitating students who arent in for the designated 3 wk period, trying to decide how xmas and summer exams are to be modified...and we're not even at a stage where all the subjects are even in! The whole thing is an absolute mess.

Anyway, to return to the topic, I wouldnt put it past them at all, but the dept would want to have some brazen cheek to threaten any union for simply insisting that the agreement is implemented according to what is written down in plain English. Surely, something needs to give at that point.

Have schools been allocated any sub hours for slars?

acequion

doc_17 wrote: »

Pay rises were coming in through National Wage Agreements, government changed the pension arrangements for new entrants and not a bit was said or done about it. The Unions jus they it go because it didn’t affect them.

But pay rises were not coming through at that stage. The last pay rise we got was in 07 and not only did the cuts start in 08, but a rise which was due under the pay agreements, "Sustaining Progress," I think it was called, was shelved.

Then after a load of cuts we had the CP agreement which did protect those in the profession from further pay cuts but during that period the Govt decided to shaft new entrants. True, unions didn't react but the Troika were at the door, at the time universally expected to savage us all so it's not surprising there wasn't a whisper out of anyone. Everyone was petrified and it sure was not the moment to kick up a fuss. Maybe not an excuse but again remember that the new entrant cuts were brought in from the Dail floor so it's not like we were given any say on the matter. Many activists in all unions have since been fighting, even striking on behalf of LPTs.

doc_17

acequion wrote: »

But pay rises were not coming through at that stage. The last pay rise we got was in 07 and not only did the cuts start in 08, but a rise which was due under the pay agreements, "Sustaining Progress," I think it was called, was shelved.

Then after a load of cuts we had the CP agreement which did protect those in the profession from further pay cuts but during that period the Govt decided to shaft new entrants. True, unions didn't react but the Troika were at the door, at the time universally expected to savage us all so it's not surprising there wasn't a whisper out of anyone. Everyone was petrified and it sure was not the moment to kick up a fuss. Maybe not an excuse but again remember that the new entrant cuts were brought in from the Dail floor so it's not like we were given any say on the matter. Many activists in all unions have since been fighting, even striking on behalf of LPTs.

I’m talking specifically about the deal done in 03, the year before I started teaching. Anyone starting in 04 or with a break in service for 6 months had to work 40 years and can’t receive their state old age pension part if they retire early before 68.

I agree entirely with your description of events from 2008.

MacGyver007

Result of SLAR Ballot:

Yes 93%
No 7%
Turnout 55%

acequion

The yes really was a no brainer. But you'd still wonder at the 7% who voted no. People will never cease to amaze me :eek:

Icsics

acequion wrote: »

The yes really was a no brainer. But you'd still wonder at the 7% who voted no. People will never cease to amaze me :eek:

Ps & VPs who will never set foot in a SLAR, but don’t want to be organizing cover for them either

MacGyver007

The directive has been issued, effective from Monday

https://www.asti.ie/news/latest-news/news-article/article/asti-directive-on-slar-meetings/